We talk 007, Amazon, Switch 2, Hitman and MindsEye with IO Interactive boss Hakan Abrak

We're so blessed that we are in a place where we can pick and choose what we want to do. Bond has a special place on that platform on Nintendo [music] and I promise I will do everything and I can do quite a lot in IO's context being the CEO as well. I'll do everything to get that out in a great shape. We are looking forward to [music] get into the weeds with Hitman again. Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show with me, Christopher Dring. Last week I was very lucky to go hands-on with 007 First Light, the first major AAA James Bond game in nearly 15 years. It's being made by IO Interactive, which is of course famous for the Hitman series and I must say this game is excellent. I I played about 3 hours of it and I immediately pre-ordered it straight after. Nice. Now the IO Interactive story has been a fascinating one. After buying itself and the Hitman IP out from Square Enix in 2017,

the studio, well, it had a rocky first few months financially, but it soon found its feet and the developer has had huge success ever since. Its new trilogy of Hitman games, a World of Assassination, has sold 25 million units globally and brought in 18 million players. Now this success has funded new studios in Brighton, Barcelona, Istanbul and more and led to the development of this new James Bond game, which is out this month, and the mysterious Project Fantasy, which according to online reports had initially been funded by Xbox. Anyway, I've spoken to IO Interactive CEO Hakan Abrak many times over this journey. I followed their story every step of the way. And you know, it's not all been success. Last year the company started third-party publishing with the ill-fated Minds Eye by Build a Rocket Boy, for example. Even so, the release of 007 First Light will be a big moment in its history. Although it plays very well, there's no guarantee of success. We've had a few high-profile licensed games come out recently, from Indiana Jones to Avatar, that hasn't managed to

do big numbers despite the big license and being a high-quality product. And James Bond has been missing in action for a while now. The last big film was No Time to Die in 2021. Now regular listeners to the Game Business Show will know we spoke with Hakan a year ago about all things IO and the reveal of James Bond, but a lot has happened in the last year and he's such a good guest that we had to have him back on. So, check out my conversation with IO Interactive CEO and 007 First Light director, Hakan Abrak. Hello Hakan and welcome back to the show. Hello Christopher. I was I played 007 First Light this week and I thought it was incredible. If the 3 hours or whatever it is I played of it is indicative of the whole game, I think you've got a a real a certain a critical hit on your hands. I think it's brilliant, so well done to you and the team at least based on what I played. Thank you so much. That's that's very

heartwarming to hear. You know, you working on something. Obviously you have some testers in and you have your gut feel when you're working on something for 7 years now almost. And yeah, it's crazy, right? It's like we were talking about the other day. It's like, you know, you go to college 3 years. Just imagine all the things you go through there with friends and you know, that's like more than twice that time working on on a project. So, getting to hear what you just said, I really really appreciate, especially because you know, you and I we've spoken we've spoken a few times before and you are familiar with the last 10 years of IO's history, what what we have been through, where we're coming from and where we are today. It's um it's a bit of a Danish fairy tale really for us. Well, I I I hope it carries on going. I mean, I noticed you were listed as a director on the game. Yes. Is that a new I don't remember you being listed as a director before. And were you hands-on with this game more than I was I I realized? Very much so. Very much

so. Um I mean, both Chris and I, we are the co-owners of IO Interactive, right? I'm the CEO, he's the chief creative officer. We are uh game developers by heart and throughout the different projects we've been working on, we've been, you know, I've been working as a producer. He's been very creative producer, um very involved in in in design throughout the years. So, as I said just before, 7 years is a long time. I didn't start off at the director of the project, but you know, many things happened. You know, I took over for for quite a while ago and I've always been close to the project, but took over completely hands-on the game direction and the executive production as well. So, very very involved. So, it's not only sitting on top as a CEO. That's not how we do in in IO. We're still very close to where the action happens. So, you could also imagine again hearing you say you really enjoyed it,

it means a lot because it's so close to my heart. Well, I know you've been a producer in the past. I didn't I guess that if it's James Bond, you're going to want to get involved, right? I imagine Jeff Bezos is sort of trying to chomping at the bit to direct the new Bond movie. I guess there's an element of that as well. I you you know, it's it's about the team, who we are, Mhm. how we support each other, right? Like I have great great experts around me that worked with for, you know, almost 20 years now, game direction, story, etc. So, a lot of this is experience and getting really elevating the young talent that we've gotten, new blood that we've gotten into IO Interactive as well, to give them the right direction. Mhm. And you know, the new blood is also part of new experience or knowledge they've come with. So, it's also about getting the old IO, if you can say so, and the new IO to get together to create something

special because, you know, the game is it's not secret that we most known for Hitman series, right?
Yeah. Like IO Interactive, the creators of Hitman. And there's a lot of people out there when we read about feedback, when they see trailers and whatnot, like, oh, it's like it's like Hitman or it's not like Hitman or it's like that's you can't run away from that. It's a reference point. But when that is said, there are so many new systems and so many new things we did with this game and in terms of the new talent, getting them to work with who we are and what we knew, build up with the Hitman systems, getting the new systems in. It's been extremely important and what we have done is it's not Hitman, right? And I and I think it's extremely important to say that, although when you play the game and hopefully you could feel that as well, that oh, this is definitely not Hitman, but this is definitely an IO Interactive game, right?
Yeah. There's things here that shines through that this is the handiwork of IO Interactive. And that's part of the

special sauce here because we make a Bond game where it's not only about the driving and the shooting, although put a lot of emphasis in that, but it's also about just walking around like Bond and feeling suave and and smooth. There were bits in it that, you know, you could sit there and say you could tell this is from people who made Hitman. It's got your DNA in it, but it it's it's felt like a James Bond game. Obviously I'm a business journalist, so you must be pleased that GTA kindly got out of your way. And um I mean, it it would be a lie if you said no, I don't care, right? Like of course it's a huge behemoth in our industry Yeah. and that it got pushed gave us a bit more breathing room. And as you know, we also pushed the game a few months just to make sure it gets the extra polishing, so all that could then fit well and happen. So, of course we appreciate that. I mean, we never wish anyone ill and you know, they have their good reasons for pushing

it. I I am sure I am certain it's going to be an an amazing game as well that they release. Yeah. Well, I mean, your marketing campaign has been extensive. Everywhere I've gone, I'm glad to hear that. the game has been there, whether it's Gamescom or some game fest or the Game Awards or Comic-Con or BAFTAs. So, it looks like a really big budget campaign and the game looks like obviously a big big budget AAA production. But I also know that you try to be quite cautious and careful. So, our looks a bit deceptive here, is it is it not perhaps as I think like this is the most ambitious project for IO Interactive, also budget-wise and product game-wise for sure. When that is said, there is a thing in the industry right now, right? Like there is that like the success of the double-A, you know, how are we going to make money with these big budgets in the industry today with with AAA games. And you know, there are quite a few people coming to me and saying, oh, that that must have been like

I'm sure you're hoping you can recoup and and and and all that, right? And uh like there is when it comes to contemporary world and when it comes to building something quality and something sustainable, I think we have proven and shown that we our approach and our concept with our engine and with the way our talent works and approaches game development, that not only do we deliver AAA single-player game, but we keep delivering and building a community. So, I'm really happy about the feedback that they can see this is like one up on what we've done before, like the visuals and uh the new systems and action and all that. Um but like the power of our engine and efficiency, it is a very expensive project for for us. It's the most expensive, but I I I'm looking forward to I'm not going to do that now, talk about budgets the exact numbers, but I'm looking forward to talk about that, you know, these budgets,

these kind of games can be done for half of what you hear out there. Yeah. So, it's it's about bang for the buck, it's about who is your team, what did you go from to what are you producing, what is your basis, and also single-player, multiplayer, these games as a publisher it's not just about, "Oh, if you haven't recouped the first 3 months, you're doomed or it's over." Like, "Oh, that was a suc- Or if you did, oh, onto the next one." That's not how we think. We really think that this is a journey. Doesn't matter if it's a multiplayer, single-player game. I know that's what you did with Hitman, and I'm actually surprised more people don't adopt your single-player-as-a-service model. It seems to be a fairly good idea. But, how adaptable is is that sort of model to a licensed IP? Do you have that much freedom to be able to sort of keep going with it? Well, it's obviously a different when it's a licensed IP. Mhm. You're working with our our close close with our partners, but we have done so, uh you know, the last 7 years already getting

everything right in Bond. It takes a lot of work and getting the right uh style and spirit and humor and and everything from clothing to you know, the small details and things and he wouldn't say that or he would say this. So, we've obviously gotten sharper on who our Bond is, but also uh the Bond universe as a whole. So, we have been working with our partners and working with our partners moving forward on, you know, this live content. We just released a gameplay trailer just recently where we also opened up on Taxon, the tactical simulation, and, you know, uh if you remember what we did for Hitman and the live tail there, uh you can imagine Mhm. uh some of those things will be done in the tactical simulation in Bond and there will be tons of content post-launch. I was actually speaking to your PR team about the fact there isn't a Bond movie at the moment, and the next big Bond story is is this

one. Patrick Gibson is the only actor actively playing James Bond today. Are you free to be able to lean into that? And could we see Patrick on Jimmy Fallon or Graham Norton or could could could you really lean into or are you somewhat restricted on what you can do there? One of the mantras we had is like uh we want to make a game, original game, original Bond, original story, never done before in gaming. Mhm. From ground up, a game made by gamers for the gamers, a Bond game made by gamers by for for gamers. So, when that is said, you've seen the title sequence, right? You've seen that some of the ingredients that goes with this IP are there, right? Like and and that also transcends outside the game into the music world. But, I think for us it's taking on this project from the get-go, it was very important for Iron Tractor because this is the first licensed IP we've ever done. Yeah. We've only done our own IPs, and it's completely out of our uh DNA to create new worlds and characters and do that. So,

it was a huge exception because it's an exceptional IP that we thought we could bring something new to. But, it was also the other way around uh extremely important for us to our partners that this was an original story. It was an original Bond that we created, so it wasn't a gamification of a movie. So, I think that space is theirs to formulate, to expand, and to dictate. So, what I want deeply is to make a game that the gamers don't necessarily get confused, is this the movies and whatnot. They know this is for us. It's for the gamers. So, I'm really like it's very very important to us. Mhm. Mhm. Okay. I guess it's also important not to confuse the two worlds, I guess is what you're it's what I'm what I'm reading between the lines. I I Yeah, I think that's that's important as well, but when that is said, it's such a big IP and I think, you know, different very charismatic actors have played Bond Yeah. uh throughout the years. But, I

think just like Batman, I think Bond, there can be different versions of of Bond in different media, right? Where it fits really well to that particular media. Licensed games have I think they've been a bit of mixed results at the moment. We've seen Star Wars Outlaws, Avatar, Indiana Jones. Great games. Um they didn't perhaps do quite as well as the people behind them hoped they would do. Have you spent much time looking at those in relation to to your strategy or I mean, it's they're all different IPs. I guess they've all got the different strengths and weaknesses, but yeah, have you spent much time looking at those? Yeah, I was just about to say I think um I think whether that's a that's a clean conclusion to say it's not a success is maybe not that clear.
Yeah. I think it's a hit and miss, I guess, sometimes, right? It's so complex because it's there's so many different IPs and there's so many different developers. Even within the IP, uh particular IP, there can be really really good games and maybe less uh good games Mhm. within the same IP. So, I don't know if that's a

if I see that as a not a good thing to do. But, as I said before, it's like for us it hasn't been a calculated thing like that.
Yeah. I feel like our confidence and our existence was there already before with our own creations. This is pure from love. Yeah. Like really, it's it's from that we we believe we could do a really really good Bond game, honestly. So, uh so we went off to do it. Midway through the project, you said 7 years, so I don't know how many years into the project, but obviously the James Bond ownership changed hands. Yeah. I know we we talked about this a little bit a year ago, but I'm interested how is now that it's been a little bit longer, how has that impacted things? Um I mean, there's always some settling to do. There's new new team members, uh new people that you you have to talk to. But, when that change happened, there's two things. One, they were very very impressed with where we had at that point already because the story, the game was was very far

uh already. Mhm.
[clears throat]
And we just got into the collaboration with all the beats and planning we had to do also for the marketing pretty pretty quickly. I think one uh constant partner that's been there from MGM and MGM Amazon now has been our executive producer from the other side. So, he's been there from day one and still here and it's been a pivotal anchor point. Okay. Uh and knows us really well and we know him really well. So, that that has been a huge benefit that we have that. But, from Amazon side, they can see, if I might say so, I'll be so bold and say it they can see it's a great game. Okay. And you know, having invested and taking over that IP, they obviously want to make sure that everything that comes out with this IP is is great. So, once they got into it and and played, they became huge supporters. We very very grateful for that. I know with Hitman, you you told me last year it was on the the fascinating thing about how Hitman 2 cost less than Hitman

1, Hitman 3 cost less than Hitman 2. You have this iterative approach to development there, but each game was also much better than the last, and it really worked. So, I imagine you'd like to try and do the same thing with with Bond. Are you confident that with the change of hands, the change of guards, you're going to be able to continue with with 007? I mean, we have a great relationship and we are all about quality and just stand by what we do, and I think Amazon is is in the same place. So, there's no doubt that we all want to see how this is doing, right? Yeah. It's not only Amazon side, Amazon MGM is also Iron Tractor. Like, is our character that we created going to be well received? Yeah. Is there going to be a community out there that likes him, that want to want to see more? So, we're not doing anything. We are so blessed. I mean, I just want to say I'm I'm so grateful given, you know, the stories we hear here and there every day in the industry, we we are so grateful. We are so blessed that we are in a place where we can pick and

choose what we want to do and use projects we want to start. So, I think if this goes really well and it's a beloved thing from the community, why not? If that's the case, we will certainly want to dig deeper into the the characters we have created. Mhm.
Well, now, we basically if the game's a hit, then maybe. And the uh well, and
Yeah. obviously I was really excited for the Nintendo Switch 2 version of the game. Yes. It's obviously had a slight delay. This isn't doing a Borderlands 4, is it? What did Borderlands do? They announced it's coming to Switch 2 and then delayed it and then it disappeared. No. No, no. No, no. It's uh it's running it's running on the Switch. Uh we we must just admit that we want to make sure that it is as good as it like I don't want to hear it wasn't a good, you know, version, blah blah blah. So, we just to be completely honest, we need a bit more time to get it um where we want want it to be. Yeah. And uh you know, we said summer, um probably going to be late summer, right? But, we we're going to get it out. Yeah.

Well, you know, the whole GoldenEye history, obviously. I think there's the there's a certain group of 40-year-old Nintendo fans that are
[laughter]
with the platform. Absolutely. I'm old enough to remember. How did you find actually I asked about Switch 2 cuz you obviously released Hitman last year on Switch 2. I looked at the numbers, but I don't know what you were expecting. How did you find that sort of first experience? I think the first experience we had on Switch was actually the cloud solution Yes. Yeah, yeah. we did way back, which was I think a bit of an experiment. So, that was um if I'm going to be completely honest with you, I think a lot of Switch gamers did not adopt that service on that on that platform back then. No. But, getting Hitman out on Switch natively running has been a much better experience both for the for the gamers, uh the Switch owners, and also our standout for what we want to have running on it there. And it's steady ongoing sales on it and important platform for us. But as you said,

Bond has a special place on that platform on Nintendo and uh you know, I promise I will do everything and I can do quite a lot in IO's context being the CEO as well. I'll do everything to get that out in a great shape. I'm going to ask some other non-Bond related questions. I've got a couple here. Um the first one is last year you published obviously Mind's Eye with IOI Partners. I think it's fair to say that was a tough that was a tough story. Has it put you off publishing? Third-party publishing? Uh I I I like we have a little team on IOI Publishing Partners as you said, which is a different thing than IO Interactive, right? I think that's very important to to mention first and foremost. I don't think I don't think it has put us off publishing. I mean, those guys were working really really hard and uh it didn't pan out how they expected and how we wished either. But as I mentioned

before, with IOI Partners company we have you know, it was a light distribution deal. I think one thing that we might uh think about if you are to do that in context of I of IO Interactive or IOI Partners in the future is that if you do something collaboration like that in the future, we might want to be more involved. Right? So, we might want to be more involved in the production gates or or creative processes. But that that obviously also means then a deeper commitment also financially if you want to be part of that process. It's not a distribution only is a publisher deal. Something like that we haven't done before. Whether we are to do that in the future, I don't know. We have many many plans, many great plans and new projects coming in context of IO Interactive. Uh so, the main thing we are about, just to make that clear, is to get our own creations into existence and both

develop them and publish them and distribute them ourselves. And have this close relationship with community. It's been working really really well for us for the last decade since we took over and uh it's something that's pivotal and important for us moving forward. I'm my next question, I'm not sure you're going to be able to answer.
I can. Um um the I like the introduction. Well, it's I'm just aware that it it's there's there's things you haven't said about this. Um so, I'm going to try anyway. When we spoke last June, you talked about Project Fantasy and uh you had a good financial partner there. Now, I've read the reports on the internet about who that partner was and obviously that part I'm talking about Xbox here and most of it's they've pulled most of their third-party funding. So, this is the reason I'm basically the question I'm going to ask, not specifically about them, but do you is the game still in good financial shape? Is that is everything coming along okay with with Project Fantasy? If you can answer that question. Yeah, so uh first of all, I'm not going to answer whether a what partner it is because

that's not been confirmed. So, I'm just going to Yeah. Yeah. Skate over that. confirm or or or deny anything. Uh to to your second part of the question, it is in a very healthy place and it's still financing going on and it's amazing. All right. Okay. I look forward to seeing it. I appreciate that's not for now. And I think I should ask about Hitman seeing as it's the heart of IO. Obviously, you've got loads of stuff coming to it. You've got this big co-op edition and all sorts of stuff. But it's also a long time since you've had a full game. And as I said, Hitman is sort of the heart of IO. How mindful are you not to neglect might be a harsh word, but not to lose focus on that series when you've got all these other big exciting flashy things going on around you with 007 and Fantasy and stuff like that? Yeah. I mean, it's it's been uh the the curse of being ambitious uh sometimes, right? The other side of that coin uh building Again, to mention, Bond is a very different game than than Hitman. Uh

building that core loop, the core platform foundation for a whole new systems and game, it is whoever has done game development knows that that's very very hard. Then we just chose to do two of those at the same time because doing a whole new IP with Fantasy with completely new system from ground up. So, um you know, on all that independence energy, braveheart talks and whatnot. So, we went boldly to do that. Now we are getting to the other side towards the end of yeah, you know, Bond is being launched in in mere weeks from now and we are very very far with that Fantasy project. And it's like um being on this side, we are looking forward to get into the weeds with Hitman again. I hasn't been air for that for going in and building up systems from ground up. But uh rest assured, we cannot wait to get into the engine room and uh upgrade, invent, innovate Hitman

for you guys again. Excellent. I kind of look forward to I'm very much looking forward to Bond. As I say, what I played looked great and good luck with it and I hope I hope it does very well. Thank you so much. Thank you. That's

[music] [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] [music]

it for today's episode of the Game