Can PlayStation’s Housemarque repeat the FromSoftware story?

like returnal, why not return too? The designers felt that like that's kind of it's self-contained story in a way.
You always have to think about where the trends are going and when you start a production of this scale years back, it's hard to predict years on out what the market will be.
Hello and welcome to the game business show with me Christopher Drink. This week we are speaking to Housemark CEO and brand director Muel Havari. Now, Housemark is the PlayStation studio behind the critically acclaimed PS5 games Returnal and Saos. Saos just came out in April, and they've worked on numerous hit games over more than 30 years, including Super Stardust, Resun, Next Mina, Matafall, countless others. Its games are wellreceived, but they have a niche audience, and I was interested to find out if they think its games have the potential to break out as bigger hits. What's more, Housemark is the oldest Finnish studio, and I wanted to learn more about maintaining its identity as they shifted towards AAA Productions. Now, we recorded this

interview a few weeks back just as they were at a PlayStation event in California, and they're receiving all sorts of plaudits for SOS. So, without further ado, here is my chat with Allari and MueL. Hi, Allar. Hi, Muel. Welcome to the show.
Thank you.
I thought you'd all be on holiday by now, haven't you? You know, having a rest after after the launch of SOS. Well, no rest for the wicket. So, we we are here actually in a very exciting place like in San Diego attending so many internal internal conference and like meeting peers and seeing secrets and all that. So, so this pretty awesome couple days we've had so far.
I have to say when researching this podcast I was reminded that I actually worked on Super Stardust HD on PS3.
I used to work in a testing agency. It was like a localization testing agency and I worked on that game in 2007. Um, it's one of my first job. That's probably one of my very first things I ever did in video games.
Wow.
So there we are. We have some

connection.
Indeed.
And that was the start of your relationship with PlayStation, I think, as well, wasn't it?
Well, in a in a way actually we had a bit earlier geek. We did PSP work with Guerilla. Mhm.
So, so we we had a kind of a bunch of our engineers in in summer 2006. We had a bunch of engineers in Amsterdam to optimize the game and helping with some backend stuff or whatever infrastructure stuff there. So, so uh that was kind of official geek within Sony Sony PlayStation universe. But then few, you know, a couple months later, we started working on Super Stardust in like like late summer 2006. So,
wow.
That was a start with with with PlayStation.
It was a great game. I remember that. I remember it being one of the games I tested that I didn't hate. So, um uh yeah. Well, I'm not here to talk about that. It was just a interesting connection. I I We're speaking I think what couple of weeks after Saros has

launched. Um, now that it's out there, the reviews are in, you've got some early data, I imagine you've heard some feedback. How are you feeling about it?
Well, of course, reviews were were kind of just amazing that like we have a new mixture of things that we tried and apparently like most of most of the reviewers are are exceptionally well received in that that combination. So, I think we are happy in that in that sense. Yeah, you can't really beat something that the critical reception has been looking at. And I think there's even new things that people maybe weren't expecting that they're liking, but of course there's always the community at large and everything. So just taking in all the all the tidbits of data.
Yeah.
Oh, good. Well, you seem relaxed. You seem that that suggests that you have been
well under the California. Well, May what is what do they call like May gray? Yeah, that's what we call it like you know at the moment in the morning where we are here. So

has there been anything about the reception that surprised you though? Is there anything I mean you obviously have an idea of what it's going to be and what people might like you what you maybe what you hope but is anything that surprised you about it?
Not really. I think it's always you know us fans are maybe realistic bunch so you're always positively surprised. you know, you're you're not supposed to be overtly uh exceptionally pushing yourself to the higher metas, but when you get there, that is a calming effect a little bit for with the years of production behind you. And I think that's a very nice surprise. Um, you know, there's little peaks of surprise and quick hot fixes and stuff that we've gotten a couple of patches out now as well. So it's it's the kind of thing that um in retrospect you're very used to but after a few years it does surprise you a little bit.
Always I think our games have been big divisive in a way. Luckily we had a kind

of like I remember like dead nation there five stars out of five and then there's five out of 10 kind of range range of the reviews like we luckily didn't get that low. there was some like mixed reception, mixed reviews like uh who didn't just like the mixture of what we you know what we try to accomplish but that's that was you know what we could expect from our games for sure. It's also I mean it's very noisy out there at the moment. We've just come off a year we've had what Resident Evil and Crimson Desert and Pragmata and lots of stuff and SAS has launched sort of in the midst of all this. And I'm just interested like are you having to think a little bit more long term about the game now because obviously I imagine there might be some players that are holding off maybe they'll jump in a little bit later because they're in the middle of playing something else. Is that has that affected you at all? Yeah. Well, I think we have
almost two weeks. You know, of course, it's been a long term for from that perspective as well. But

it's funny to see that for example, Returnal when we shipped it started gaining traction a bit later and I think now it's become
really
during the years I think a lot of people and community got to unlock it a little bit more and then that's tends to um trickle down and and people get more interested in it. So in in a sense like I already mentioned our games typically um aren't maybe Hollywood blockbusters maybe. So you know we're we're sort of a garage band mentality here that uh um it may sometimes it's like um well it's been such a long time already two weeks since launch.
Yeah. And I think you know like like Miguel has has been telling that this is just a start of the kind of a discussion and conversation with the gaming community. So we have some things that like if you have have played you know that there's a lot of things that we can we can do and tweak and like add add even even so
so so like how to how to tune it and how

to give extra challenges for people or like what what they would so so this is kind of a start of the discussion and we hope that we can keep on keep on doing that for a while
and the first patches we have put out have been you know bug fixes HDR are tweaks, other things that are really kind of more urgent as well. So, you have this peak of how do how do the people react and then you have most of the stuff that needs to get figured out in the first two weeks, but
Mhm.
so far so good.
You know, nothing true in
Well, I guess this is what you're talking about here is your games are very specialist, right? They are they're uncompromising in a way of what they are and the sort of people you make games for. have a fan base of people that wait for your games and they are a dedicated group but actually we what we've seen and I know this isn't really you don't I guess you don't have to worry too much about this now that you're not independent but we've seen many times in the industry that niche games can become

very bitter games you know we've seen it a few times and it was from software and all these sort of things do you think that's something that a housemark game can ever be is that is there an opport do you see that as a potential
absolutely I know we kind of mention from Sbury. Of course, that's one of the points we are discussing here. What the Demon Souls was or even earlier games like they've been doing kind of a similar genre for a very long time and built up their fan base for for the longest period of time. But, you know, we have two unique games out. I think you know, Returnal Sos I think there's I don't know what what would be the closest closest thing there. old and so it's kind of a new thing that you know you need to educate the markets as well right so
like hey these are cool these flow states these bullet ballet you know things that are really cool it's it's funny because these are again new terminologies but a lot of it's based off of older classics and terminologies

that maybe need some modern interpretations but you know that's that's a part of the uncompromising nature of the games that it may take a little And then people kind of find those things that they want to talk about. But the thing is also we do have the back catalog that then if people like SOS they might go to Returnal and they might try next Machina and the whole catalog sort of also uplifts a lot of these um principles.
Yeah. We talked earlier about Super Stardust and it was a little bit before that, but you've basically been a PlayStation second party developer for a while, but SOS is your first game you made entirely under Sony ownership. Was the experience any different?
Well, actually, yeah, I think it's from from a studio perspective for sure. You you kind of peak behind the curtain and you know there's a lot of things going on you weren't aware of, right? So, so how much help you know there is from different different parts of the organization and and now now we

certainly embraced with this game that like embraced more those relationships that we have a more direct connections with the people who are contributing to the game and the whole kind of a system like use it from user testing to to kind of of course we work with the creative arts sound and music departments earlier but like this is this is kind of cool to see that all these people are contributing to to this this game and and be more part of it like and and I think I think Mik said that like now we are truly a kind of a PlayStation first party when we have shipped the game.
Yeah.
So now we are here and like and and you know peers here like from from the best developers in the world are like high-fiving us that congratulation giving congratulations on the release and and uh praising the game. So it's it's kind of pretty amazing like coming from superstard little little game game studio like 10 12 people to where we are at the moment.

So that's that's pretty amazing.
Obviously SOS is is more is narratively stronger than than the games you've done previously and narrative is obviously something PlayStation's other teams are are famous for. Um did they help you at all with this? Was there any involvement there? We've had plenty of um at least peers peers to consult and to kind of add to that. Testing systems help a bunch, but for example, our creative director Gregory Louden has been able to um if he's had any any doubts or questions, he's able to now, you know, just ring up his his buddy counterparts uh in the other studios. And I think that's the general vibe of of sort of um being a part of the ecosystem to to a deeper degree. Of course, we've been spoiled with having 20 years of some Sony collaborations, but like Eli mentioned, it's been a little bit of a different relationship and now we're a

bit more one foot of both feet in inside the circle as well.
Oh, good. How would you describe a Housemark game? Well,
on a high level, I would say that there's a instant gameplay feel that you should grasp that it feels a bit different. It feels maybe more deep from that, I don't know, general control perspective that
you jump in and you have instant feedback. the audio, the visuals, everything adds to that feedback and therefore um hopefully the learning curve and everything is uh at least adjusted to the degree that you have a bit more of a flow entering that. And then that's also one of the end things that we want to accomplish within our games is that all of the components come together and create this flow state where you can sort of try to become one with the game. So wonderful. This is one of the unique aspects that we have, but of course you can go down to the minuscules of what's a housemark dash,

what what kind of eye frames do we use and all these things, but overall I think it's more about those certain kind of gameplaycentric sensibilities and getting into um getting really deep into the game. H
flow st is is kind of a thing that like trying to accomplish that that like the controls and and the kind of fluidity of the movement you know you just can get into that you are not struggling with the with the controller so it's it's kind of you you are there
second nature
second nature I think this is kind of the when people reach it when we are reading reading communities like uh comments now that like oh you know started playing at at 8 and you know suddenly 3:00 in the morning like oh you So, so I guess try to get more people into kind of understanding what it is. It's of course it's an educational process as well that get be more people to try to experience that that like they might feel very intimidating and like oh there's so much going on but like

if you get into that state it doesn't like it starts to be like what we call like bullet bal like you kind of are you know floating around the kind of the arena and like it's just start to be second nature and you kind of immerse yourself into this world and this is of course 3D audio will help a lot. You know, we are using a lot of that haptics or the combination of course with with what what PlayStation is allowing us is helping with that.
Yeah. Immersive side is quite quite central now as well. And
how have you found maintaining that identity while sort of growing the team and moving into this into sort of a more AAA production level? I mean, I always thought your games are pretty high-end, but how have you found maintaining that? I think overall you always have to reassess your strengths and company culture and DNA and we've been very fortunate to have a back catalog as strong as we do. So there's a lot of this guiding principles

and sort of a thin red line to follow and um even making this huge leap that we did with with Returnal into these bigger titles, we try to really hone in on what makes a Housemark game. But then again, it's always reassessing that and and seeing how does it fit and you should never take these things for granted and and you should always try to see how that be can become your like a strongest pillar in the way you do things but
I guess we always attract also also of course you know it's a it's over 30 years of the the history of of house market we always kind of seem to even though people might change and and there new people coming in and of course some of the all are still here but seems that we attract the people who kind of understand the sensibilities the things we are trying to accomplish doing something creating a unique game experiences to the players and that you

know of course is so one part of it consist of this for figure out the flow state and like
the controls that does buttery smooth and that sort of a thing but that's the basis and then we can build the layers on the top of And the players usually tend to get it. I think the games to some extent speak for themselves and it's great to see that our efforts are resonating and then reflected from the community, but it's it's a lot of these very gameplay ccentric um things that we try to hold on to.
This might be a question you've asked answered before, but I'm sorry if you have. Um why do you keep doing new IP? I know that you've done you've done multiple Stardust games. You've done you've done sequels in the past. What's that about? You're making a life very hard for yourself.
Maybe we can twist it this way. We've been very fortunate enough to be able to do unique and new IPs and within the let's say smaller arcade era the golden era of arcade as I call it from at least from reser gun to next market or a bit

earlier than that even once you have these concepts that we can put the housemark twist on there's something to be explored there and again fairly small amount of uh teams get to work with so many new IP and fresh So I think we've always seen it as a strength to be able to kind of reinvent some concepts. Never say never, but again it's one of those things that so far it's been this way.
Yeah. I I think it's part of the course coincidence partially especially when we did a smaller downloadable arcade inspired games. This one of business realities as well like when you're a small developer you sign a deal that you can't really
you know do do another one unless the publisher wants to do a sequel. So we couldn't do Superstardis 2 with somebody else like like publisher and and you know you can't do the same
materially the same kind of a game with with with somebody else unless the publisher was also kind of exclusive

with Windows and that's kind of pushed also a little bit
but for instance in the in a case with like Returnal why not return too it's kind of what the designers felt that like that that's kind of it's self-contained story in a way that there's know kind of telling another story of Seline. I guess that's coincidental in a way.
And also if you do want to differentiate yourself with a whole new set of features like the shields and everything, you kind of have the benefit of of trying to put it into uh
some familiar things but a different context and then people do kind of accept that it is as it is and Seline is a very unique story. origin is now unique different story. So maybe there's something to that as well.
Yeah, I guess you talking earlier about the Housemark identity. There there's an element of even if it's a new IP because it's from you there is an element of like the brand might be yourself. Well, I like the idea of a studio brand, but

then again,
things go different layers and
it's it's still all about communicating that to the audience as well that these are unique experiences, but then we should be able to say what are the familiar things they should look forward to and so on and so on. So, it's always a uphill battle from my perspective to kind of define those things.
How big are you now? Can you tell me is the studio much bigger? Yeah, we are around a bit bit less than 120.
Okay.
Maybe 116 18 somewhere. So we're around that. That's kind of feels like a pretty good size at the moment.
Yeah.
So pretty pretty pretty spot tax. And it's been the biggest since I joined 13 almost 14 years ago and it's one of those things that you know you grow a little bit and we've about a year ago we got into a new office space and it's starting to feel like a home or a proper house with the mark
after superstard to let's say next

machina before we start returnal I think we were around 40 50 people around that for a decade and doing two three things at the same time so quite different than jumping to this scale with like doing one game at a time.
Yeah.
With this amount of people. So, so that's that's kind of been big big of course change in the in in the studio that try to learn how to make these bigger games and bigger experiences, how to organize that. It's kind of a never ending never ending thing that like it always you know it feels like at least some people say that if one people people kind of move moves on or whatever it's another another kind of a team struck being
uh it's a new team basically and and if you add people it's kind of a little bit of new team already
but certainly certainly we we as a team now shipped a really good pretty good game so so we hope that we we can keep on doing that with this team.
Even Seo, who's been here with us, has

been with the company almost 30 years. So, there's still a couple of those long haul guys still still keeping up the shop.
How's it been trying to maintain that? I don't know. I I have to imagine you've got a quite a unique culture, quite a unique vibe to the studio. I know in when you're independent, it's often just survival a lot of the time, but have you managed to maintain that? Yeah, again it's one of those things that um you know you have Finnish people tend to be uh direct and there's a certain culture but still our internal feedback could always be better but um these are the things that you must realign yourself um and uh it's comforting for me to even see that the some of the really I feel like one of the new guys still uh you know but then talking to some of the older people you really understand that there is the roots in the demo scene and there are some real cultural legacy things that we can hold on to. So I I would suppose that instead of looking at a brand new startup, it's still much more grounded

and it feels like there's an air of yeah, we are still the oldest Finnish video game company and you know these types of things that at least um gives you a much better baseline than maybe other lots of need lots of internal communication and and there will be some people challenge the way we do but they come from like Ubisoft thousand people teams and like you know, hey, you shouldn't do do this this this way, like, well, we don't have a thousand people in our team. So, so it's kind of this there's of course there's kind of a some some cultural classes occasionally people coming from different countries and different experiences, but like
you know trying to trying to kind of uh focus on the core. So the game play first game play game game is game is the king kind of a mantras. This this what we try to internally emphasize and uh you know there's always this this discussion of course when you know half of the people are are haven't have w

were with us when we shipped the return.
Yeah. So you kind of have half of them like like new people half of half of this still people who were who were with us when we see the return. So of course there's lots of discussions and and different opinions but I think we kind of uh eventually you know uh prevail and like do our thing and like not to deviate from the core values
when I I used to work in magazines. I did that for a long time and it was a very you know uh we brought somebody in who was from newspapers. He'd worked on big national newspaper and he came in and he said um he couldn't believe he said don't you just give this work to the subediting team
and I was a small we only four of us on the magazine I was like subedit subediting team what do you think we are
exactly right
the level expectations are different aren't they from
that's the thing why don't you have these 12 directors working on these
different things like well we'll be

those you know
it's not it's not we're a bit closer to the budget yet um well I didn't worry the time. Um, this industry is going for a bit of a shift right now and I know that there's pressures on budgets. There are there are not as many new IPs being made in the AAA level anymore, which is lovely to see that yours is. Is that impacting House Mark at all? impacts us. Of course, we have to even assessing our kinds of games and how they will be available and what are the markets and for example most likely we wouldn't be able to do mobile games because our controls are such a central part of our identity,
you know. So you always have to think about where the trends are going and when you start a production of this scale years back you really it's hard to predict years on out what the market will be but um you know we do live in a little bit of a bubble at Helsink
yeah but um yeah
yeah so so of course you know we just pinch pinch ourselves like are we dreaming that we given this

opportunity to create this thing thing like a new game new IP with this sort of resources But we are kind of quite crowded as well. We were like 26 years as an independent kind of as you mentioned surviving from one game to another and like uh like like try to find out our way but but certainly we are we are you know especially now like like thinking about you know how to proceed with SOS and how to kind of a discussion with the community but then of course what we should do in the future there's kind of interesting opportunities like like we would like to look at that might not be at the scale Hale of Sados. I don't know if that's that's possible, but there's so many things that we want to kind of explore and we'll find out that whether whether that's possible or not.
Is there anything you miss about being sorry?
No, I was going to say that it's been two weeks since we should the first filing going.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything you miss about being independent? By the way, I know there's lots of advantages of being part of

Sony.
Well, independentness, you can take it from two different perspectives. there's the independence on on the craft and everything you do and then there's the struggling to finance
your team kind of side of it but again indie games tend to be smaller more exploratory types of titles and clearly we've been able to say that our era of arcade smaller titles is is something we learn from for for these bigger titles but again you know I I still boot up Reser gun every once in a while
yeah I just I just had had my fair share of gray hair while being independent. So, so it's kind of what that part is at all. So, like thinking about like oh 6 months from here like oh how do I kind of pay pay the bills and and salaries. So that's that's certainly not the part of the independent life we kind of a miss. So, you know, we're still learning learning about PlayStation, the PlayStation, how we how we should do things and
what we can do. And I think this there's a I think more

actually which is kind of need to open our minds the more more opportunities that we haven't been looking into
and and even the fact that a 31y old company can feel like a new kid on the block
when you come to this side of family then you know it keeps you on your toes but very very fortunate in that regard.
It keeps you learning doesn't it? I think anybody, whether you're a game developer, anyone in life, if you can keep learning, you can still feel young no matter how old you are. Um, I want to ask one more question because I've run out of time, which is where would you like to be in 10 years? Like what is your long-term dream for Housemart?
Well, well, we
I certainly have done quite a bit of strategy work lately and continuing for the upcoming months, you know, thinking about the future. But I don't know of course we kind of think that this is kind of we actually have been thinking about 10 year thing how many games we might might be releasing and
what is the end goal but of course you mentioned mentioned from software
that how how did they kind of did their they their journey journey from what is

king's quest was what we like to to what they are today but
not presuming that we would be anywhere close to that but like even keep our keep our core and keep keep you know educated the market these are the coolest game you can play and get into the flow state so I think that's at least is one of our goals like to keep that
we also know we also know where we don't want to be which is you know like a maybe some sort of a support studio or bankrupt but
in the end the point is that we are currently and in the past have been able to forge our own direction in the industry and I hope that that remains a strong you know sentiment going forward and whatever may be then I'm sure we'll have plans to
I guess like Mr. last like I I think I think we part of those you know we we deserve our place among the the best kind of a game studios in the world like Naughty Dogs and Insomniac and Santa

Monica what what a peer group we have here so like like hopefully we'll kind of a notch towards towards to that that kind of a level not not say that we could achieve that but but I think that's possibility that's kind of a thing that I like really pursue that like it keeps us on on our toes for sure.
You're probably the best at the sort of games that you do, right? Top of your genre. And the question I think that I have for you is how c how can you make that genre that whether you call it a genre, I don't know, but how can you make how can you make that style of game bigger? How can it reach more audiences whilst also maintaining that hardcore fan base that you've got? How can you do the from software journey? There's loads of other examples of this, by the way. It's not just from software. you know, Game of Thrones, that concept. You pitched that to a TV executive 20 years ago, it gets thrown out and now it's the big it comes the biggest show on TV. These things happen and and Hell Divers 2, some of your own sister studios.
Yeah. Well,
there was tons of examples of it. And I think that's I think that's the right

question to ask, right? We make these amazing games at the top of what they do. How can we invite more people in?
Yeah.
We get there step by step.
Yeah.
And you you start with year number 32 and then Sheree and
Yeah. And you know return and sorrows are part of the conversation right with the with the audience right so so there's been like lot of you know a lot of people have experienced returnal more and more people started to experience sorrows and like we're kind of learning learning as well from the from the gamers that like what what kind of a things they would like to be honest we also appreciate the the press getting into very interesting dialogues on what genres are and what things that define these things. So in the end um I again we're very privileged to be in a place where we can define these things and and help others kind of give us feedback. So g getting player feedback is is a golden opportunity as well. So it's it's beautiful to have shipped and and have that now it's the the game is with the players

and we get to enjoy that side of it.
Well I'm glad it's been received well. I hope it continues to grow. Thank you for your time. Thank you Larry. Thank you ma taking up too much of your time. It's been a privilege to have you on. Thank you.
Hey, thanks. Thanks a lot.
That's it for today's episode of the Game Business Show. Thank you to Ari and Male for joining us today. If you like our interviews, if you want to make sure you don't ever miss one, go to the gamebusiness.com, put in your email address, and you'll get an alert every single time we put out an episode. But that's it from us today. Until next time, thank you for tuning in.