“AAA is not dead because some exec says so”

AAA opened the door for every new console for years and years and years. Big AAA games will go first. They'll use the new engines. They'll do tons and tons of tech and then every game in the company after that gets to use what they want. Last place, they audited us twice because they couldn't believe that we spent uh you know over $und00 million. And I'm like, we had to start everything new.
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funds for charities such as special effects one special day. You can get involved at ww.gmananggaming.com/comp/charity-bundles. Elsewhere, Greenman Gaming Distribution is a new service that helps studios boost discoverability by activating titles across 180 plus vetted retailers, reaching over a 100 million gamers and delivering up to 20 to 30% more revenue compared to Steamon sales. Now, back to the show. Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show. This week, I'm talking to a veteran of video game development who in recent months has experienced firsthand the challenges facing those looking to create AAA video games. He's also responsible with some of the industry's most iconic titles, directing and producing projects including Dead Space, numerous Call of Duty games, Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, From Russia with Love, Legacy of Came Blood, Omen 2, Gex 3, and most recently The Crystal Protocol. I am of course talking about Glenn Scoffield. Glenn, welcome to the show.
Ah, thanks man. Uh, Christopher, thank you. I really appreciate you having me

on. Um, and uh, yeah, it is a long list of games.
It goes all the way back. It's like what is your first game a Barbie game according to the internet? Was that your first?
Yes, it was.
What a first I mean hopefully not your last game but first and most recent game juxosition there between Barbie and and sort of utter horror.
But you know I come from an illustration background. I was illustrator in New York for a little while there and you know you just jumped on whatever project and my whole life was kind of like that. you know, I I always had creative projects people somehow they showed on my door and uh I didn't care. You know, all the artists there was there was only like I think I was the 12th guy hired and uh there was a couple I think five artists something like that and they all just thought it was funny to give the uh the new guy Barbie. But uh I didn't realize I was just psyched, you know. I'm like, "Hey, this is something new. I

get to use my computer experience and Barbie ended up outselling everything they had done.
Oh, nine years. So, they made me art directive.
Well, that's was it. You know what? It's I my first job in game I was worked in QA for about a year and they gave me the Thomas the Tank Engine uh eye toy game. It was my first my first experience real and I was excited. I couldn't I I was just excited to work in video games and yeah. Um, yes, similar similar different story, but uh,
no, it is very similar. Yes. Yeah.
Well, I wanted to get you on because you've just gone through I feel to start with the modern times. You've gone through what sounds like a frustrating experience trying to get it's a new horror project off the ground, I think. Um, I know you told this story on LinkedIn, but for those who haven't read it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. But, you know, um, 2023. All right. So 2024 20 at the end of 23 we started talking about uh this is a

friend of mine is in uh he's a venture capitalist a very big and uh he said you know uh what do you want to do and I said well obviously I want to make another game um and uh I have one you know so I kept you know I had been working on it for a couple of years and then you kind of go back to it again when you have new ideas and So it's always being worked on and I always have a few like that. So um there was two and um and nobody could decide. There's like five or six of us and we finally they finally just like you need to decide. You're the one director like okay right so I picked Kelly and um because I was working on a ton of enemies I mean couple thousand. No,
I have tons and tons just making them. Um, so we went out with Helien, but when we started, which was probably started

talking in September of 23, the market hadn't gone south yet. the VC. He was just I had my VC and I had my agent and so they were they hadn't seen it yet and we started feeling it after we had put together a you know a PowerPoint but a really good one you know
and financial data all that stuff. But so we went out hearing this stuff and then it then we started but the meetings were all everybody was lining up to see it. You know they they um you know I used to pitch I I pitched my whole life, right? So, um, I get pretty passionate and animated and and, uh, and so I, you know, there's a bunch of people who, uh, actually enjoy my pitches and so I know people, a

couple of them were saying, "Hey, you know, we just wanted to hear what you have." Uh, but then we had quite a few that went went to, you know, two and three minis. But now we're getting into couple months into uh
24 and now we're feeling it right and we're not being told get down to 10 million not not yet you know we're just being oh you want you want 100 million uh that's a lot of money and uh you know they don't realize that that you know some of these games that I've worked on in the past you know um caught really a really expensive game, but they have three modes. So, some of these these games and those when you're making a mode for Call of Duty, it's a freaking game. So, you know, there's a lot of content in those. And so, I was looking to do something big here. Um, but even then, we were getting the price down. I could get it down to maybe 85 or something like that.

But then, you know, I'm starting to read I'm reading these articles that are starting to they're like AAA is dead. You're dead. You ought to just read, you know, just anybody who's in AAA ought to retire. And uh and some of these are executives in the game industry.
Mhm. And so I started getting, you know, hearing this and and that's when I was, you know, starting to say, you know, to some of these guys like like AAA opened the door for every new um console for years and years and years or they open, you know what I mean? It's like, okay, the big AAA games will go first. They'll they'll use the new engines. they'll they'll do tons and tons of tech and then every game and the company after that gets to use what they want. So there was so much good that Triple has done and and so I was I was

just getting a little upset at some of these guys. It's just like how can you turn your back on people like this?
But um cuz it happens all the time. There's still more there's not a lot of cartoony hoppy jumpy games anymore, you know, platform games. is a few maybe you know been into Nintendo but you know um so we've seen things come and go come and go and uh I I personally don't think that AAA isn't like a racing gamea is a whole you know it's a platformed game so
well I was going to ask you what does AAA mean to you because you know you take something like you know I always used to I talked about this on the show recently with someone else I I talked um how let's take a horror game. Well, a horror game doesn't do everything, right? It is it has it has combat, it has atmosphere, it has story, but it doesn't necessarily have driving. It doesn't necessarily have RPG mechanics. It's not they're often, you know, 10

hours less uh long. But people would describe Resident Evil or something like that or even your, you know, Dead Space. I mean, your games as AAA, but they're obviously completely different scope to Assassin's Creed or
Yeah. Do you know how much Dead Space cost?
I have no idea.
You know, maybe 32 million, something like that. I don't know when I started hearing um that I was, you know, my games were being labeled AAA. I'm like, you have any idea what making Dead Space was like? Yes, I was at EA, but at that time EA published uh something like 60 games a year.
And internally, internally, I mean, it was, you know, they had studios in um you know, we we were had five, six games just down here in in Redwood Shores, but they have studios all over the world. And so in order to get your game

even even like death space, I made a deal with the president at the time and I said uh I need 18 to 20 people put me in a room um because I was leaving after uh after Bond and I just didn't want to make another Bond game. So, uh, no offense to Bond and and, uh, um, and so I made a deal with, uh, the president at the time, uh, Paul Lee, and, uh, just give me 18 or 20 people, put me in a corner and leave me alone for a year because the big companies, especially back then, had a tendency to go, I need 10 of your people, you know, just as you're about to hit a great milestone or anything. Well, anybody comes in and takes your people. So I was used to that and hated it and so um we wrote that down and I got to pick the people.
So uh you know I had already a group had

established a group of five people and then new ones every game and stuff like that. So you're making that face then after that is trying to keep it established within the company so people have heard of it
right you are you are marketing inside your own company I did a number of things made a calendar I made a scary freaking with with just kind of the concept part that we had I was like I I spent like I don't know $4,000 on it or something and uh we put dates on it and you know like famous dates and and then we pass it out to the uh executive. We we kind of hit it. Holy crap. Did I get in trouble for that?
But at the same time now they're starting to hear death face.
Then I started taking we should have taken posters. He made some posters and we'd put them up like we'd go to the big

with any internal show like we would have one and I shouldn't say show John and meeting you know the executives get together.
Yeah.
You know we go there and uh put these posters by the urinals in the men's room so that you know whenever they're going into the bathroom seeing dead space. And so it was just we did this gorilla marketing to stay relevant but it didn't take long. Uh it took about 6 month well took about 3 months to scare my boss and uh uh and and that was important cuz soon as he was always on boards named his Nick girl I mean he wasn't like a boss he was like he's just this dude that had more power and he just blocked things for me. Um he'd let me make the game for a while, you know, just
Yeah.
And then he was there with me pretty

much the the whole time. Um because it took over a year to get a green lit and this is after having McCami come in and go and just amazing. Um uh so but man, that's about as indie as you can get. You inside a giant company.
Yeah. you know, um, fighting for your dollars and then in the end, dude, they get this, they do this internal, so they're they're psyched because EA, you know, they're showing people Dead Space, people are like really excited for it now. Um but then they do this internal thing where they have this third thing where the chief chief creative officers they have there was two I guess at the time come in and they uh they look at all all games.
Mhm.
And they were comparing ours to Mirror's Edge cuz Mirror's Edge was the other new game coming out that
I remember. Yeah.
So internally we're about five six months before Ship both games.

um something like that. It could be. And uh they give Mirror's Edge a 90 and Dead Space is 72.
Yeah.
This is and we're like and the team is devastated and we are like five six of us and how do you talk to them? That's part of your job. You have got to explain to them, no,
these guys are wrong. You know, it just sucks the wind out.
What does that do though? Internally, they go, well, let's give Mary Zed more money in marketing than Deadpace. I think we had something like 12 14 million in marketing, which is uh, you know, the people going that's more than my budget for making the game. Yes, but we're talking EA and and
yeah,
so is that AAA? I really don't know. I don't know.
It's probably AAA for a horror game, but

is it AAA for I mean that's it's such a meaningless term in many respects.
It is. It is.
It's um it's AAA for that genre, but it's not a genre that requires you to build a 100 hour openw world epic experience, does it? Um
and I guess that's what I mean when I hear the term I actually don't like it. We've talked about it. I've said this so many times.
I don't like it either. The first time I heard it, I'm like, AAA just sounds like like I my nose in the air. I mean, I'm just sitting here making games and then one day somebody said, "You're making AAA games." I'm like,
"Well, I guess you definitely I mean, we talk about Call of Duty being of a certain scale." What is it? Is it the amount of money it makes, the amount of players it's got, how much, how many people it took to make. Um, I look at um, again this I apologize to our listeners who've heard me say this so many times, but I look at games like Space Marine 2, Expedition 33, which people say, "Oh, they want DA." Yeah, but what they do is of AAA quality, right? You know, the amount of energy and effort and time they spent on this.
Exactly. You you Yeah,

but it may not have the AAA budget that you associate with Assassin's Creed or something like that, but it's still And I'm like, I think this is when the ter, you know, it's not double A suggests it's a lower quality. It's not. It's just more focused. like I don't I don't really it's a nebulous term and so when people say is AAA dead or AAA is dead I'm like I don't even know what what what are you actually talking about here being dead um what you're talking about is mega budget games are having a tough time at the moment unless they're attached to a big franchise which yeah okay we can see that that's just a factual um um situation but yeah
but there are still so many AAA games out there what are you going to tell Capcom on you know you can't make AAA games anymore nobody wants them
if Hunter Wilds is a AAA game and it's their fastest selling video game in history. Kingdom Come Deliverance 2, which was released just like a week afterwards, sold 2 million copies like a week and that's also a AAA um game, you know, in terms of size and scale.
But you know what the other thing it's come to symbolize in in some people's minds and is um a a grand amount of

waste,
right? Um and uh it's not I mean we are are given the budget because the number one thing is salaries and so um when you're on a game like that where I've always always you know demanded the the top 5% when we go and hire and that you know and what I mean by you know the best the best and it's always hard to find but after a while you know with been doing it all long long time. And so that's where most of the cost is. We get to use other technologies. We get to try new things. But part of that is that's part of the contract, unwritten contract that you have with the company that the AAA teams will we're trying to find ways to save money. We really are. And and uh and but we have to we're the ones that sort of have to spend it sometimes. I mean, I

can't tell you how many engines I've used in my in my uh lifetime, you know, and it's a pain in the neck. Uh but that's part of the job.
Um and then, you know, a lot of times we're the big one for that company or one of the big ones. And so, you know, you you have a reputation you have to to live up to.
Yeah.
Uh but it's not uh because we're like TripleA, man. just you know what go out and get a couple of hummers and go get some you know get there's none of that.
Yeah. I was actually, I'm going to say this, my last game, my last place, they audited us twice because they couldn't believe that we spent uh, you know, over $100 million. And I'm like, we had to start everything new. You had

nothing. There was nothing. We started a brand new studio in the United States.
Yeah. And all those costs are lumped in there. Then we get going and they said and we were PS4 at the time. They go, "We got to switch to PS5." And and I came back a few, you know, a few weeks later and I said, "Okay, here's the cost." And they were like, "What? He's just going PS4 to PS5?" I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" No cost. And and then we had to build a publishing company. They didn't have one. They did, but it only had done PUBG. So, we built one from scratch. We actually put them in striking distance studios and um that was a major overhead that we had to add. You know, there's all new tech that we had to get in the brand new studio and and so all those costs get lumped in there. There's so many more. I can't remember. The other thing is, you know, how many times the

company comes to you and says, you know, my my my son is I'm not saying this happen crafted as much. My son uh really loves your game and he really wants a big bazooka type gun that he call, you know, the stuff that they want to add, you know.
Yeah. Well, it's interesting you talk about this because I I the thing I'm I'm a business journalist. I don't really do video game reviews. I don't do it. But the last game I reviewed was I don't know if it last game it probably was the last game it was the Crystal Protocol. Um uh I love the genre so I was offered the opportunity to do it. So I was eager to do it. And the game is is really good, right? The combat is excellent. It looks visually stunning. I mean it wasn't perfect but there was so much promise to it. And I remember thinking I can't wait to play the sequel, right? I just remember thinking that you know there's going to be something else. It you you'll tweak the bits that didn't quite work. You include all the stuff you didn't have time to do, you Yes. Yes. Miller, I get it.
The sequel is where it's going to you will be will be will and um we I mean we

had IO Interactive on the show talking about a couple of months ago and they told us how their recent Hitman games each sequel costs less than the previous one to make but deliver better results critically and financially.
Yes.
And I worry that sometimes
depending on how you design. Yes.
Yeah. They obviously very much built it in that way. But people
Yeah. You mentioned talking about when you invest in AAA launch for console and all of that, you know, investment ends up getting passed along in the in in the future and I know that there are AAA companies mentioned interactive that has that think franchise. They think long term when it comes to the investment they make. Um they they have an element of patience. Okay, the first game the margins weren't great or non-existent, but you know, we'll we'll keep pushing this. Um I don't really have a question there, but I do feel I was just very disappointed. I mean, I'm assuming we're not going to get a Crystal Protocol sequel, right? Um Um I made a point that that wonderful groundwork that was laid,
yeah,
isn't being built upon.
Well, I'll tell you the u you're absolutely right about the groundwork.

you know, everything that we had done and and not only that, this was the discussion that I had with them started, which was, "Hey, Witcher, Witcher didn't start making it till the third game." And that's the it was his favorite game. Yes. Yes. And I said, "But we can make money on our second game. There's no doubt about it." Uh, and that's what that was what we had. And I said, you know, maybe if we're lucky, we'll break even on the first game because we have to spend a lot of money on on all of this, right?
Yeah.
Um Yeah. I mean, uh it it it really what what bothers me is because we had this dialogue so often was like, yes, you know, we're going to make this, we're going to do this. Then we went public and all of a sudden, you know, then we had, of course, we had with CO. So CO

just
we had to go from uh we didn't even move. We were in the studio one week, man. 7 days and then CO hits and we pulled out. So um we still had to hire 100 people. Um cuz this was I mean you played it Esau was not only massive everybody want you know they talk now about we don't want great graphics. I'm like holy crap. That's where I get
they come to me because they know they're going to get really good graphics too. And that kind of just comes as a comes with it because I'm I'm an artist. I'm an art director. So yeah um you get that as a bonus and we're going to push on that. Right. The thing is, look, I freaking love making games and I do love this. There's there's a political aspect to it. I don't like when the politics get in the way, which they did with Crafting.
There's no doubt about it. I mean, they uh they told me that the game has to has to ship in in December because of the

the the Korean stock market. I I should have just shut it down right there. Right. Right there. because and said then you you're going to ship it because I'm just mad myself on that one. Right. And then politics because they came out and it came out and look it was a [ __ ] show when it came out um on the PC on Steam and uh and so we got labeled with that of course and we should we should have but you know it was upset. So he didn't he stopped talking to me on December 10th, which is right after ship. And they didn't talk to me again until next May. So during that time, I just took the team and we did all our DLC. We did extra. And um and then we did 86 patches. And then we had a regimen. Every time we're going to release a patch, 12 of us would get in a

room. every department. If all 12 didn't raise their hand that it was ready, we didn't send it out. We weren't going to do that same crap, you know, um rushing because we had to. And so, from what I heard the other day, the game has sold anywhere between 6 and 7 million copies, which I think was
Oh, wow.
Yes. And so, it not only made its money and made a lot of money for the second for for a first game.
Wow.
And I've heard those numbers a couple times. First I heard 6 million, then I heard 7 million. I'm thinking even if it's five, it made his money. But these numbers are pretty solid from who I got them from. Um, and but we also saw the downloads on the Xbox and and the Sony and they were huge.
Mhm.
You millions and millions of people. So it's set up to win, but then it would I don't know why except for maybe, you know.
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, look, look,

let me step back for a second because I loved my time at EA,
you know, making Dead Space and doing all that stuff and doing the internal marketing, doing all that. And that was a heyday from for EA, you know, they had this brand new studio. People were coming from around the world to come look at the studios and the and the whole campus. And it was just a a wonderful time. I mean, hell, I had Robin Williams come into the room quite a few times and his son ended up working for me for a couple of years. Uh, Zack. Hey, Zach. And, uh, you know, um, it was just it was a wonderful time. And then I go to to Activision and, uh, I loved those guys. It was a a men and women and who was all like a personalities with smart and you're it was like a boxing match where

you learned you know.
Yeah.
So no man my my my I really enjoyed I've just had a couple of you know everybody has a rough patch but you get through it. Well, I say I think do you know what I thought was super unlucky that you ended up going up against a remake of your own game in Dead Space? Like I just What are the chances? We've been waiting for a horror game like this.
I know what the chances are. And I I I I have an internal story I'll never tell except for if I ever write a book.
Oh wow. Well, I just I remember I've been waiting for a Dead Space style game for ages and two come along at once was just um
Who do you think I went to first when I was going to make a horror game?
Yeah. No, you know, I think the I think what this was was a wakeup call. Um because a lot of times when you're making a trip AAA game like Craftton never came out. I said, "Here's the budget." And we're pretty tight with

budgets. We've been doing them for decades. And even though they get bigger and bigger, you know how much everything costs. You go out, you get people to get. So, your estimates are pretty tight. And then you you kind of getting them better and better. And um and matter of fact, I've always shipped to pretty much the the budget. But in this case, we had to keep going back because they were like, "Oh, we had PS5. Uh oh, by the way, we're going to do this. we're going to, you know, so the budget stayed pretty close, but nobody said to me, "I need you to get 40 million down." No one said that to me.
No one's ever come back and said, "Your games are too exp." Well, no. You know, I should say Activision, we used to punch it out, you know, no doubt. Um,
yeah, but they said that to you with this game, right? were not publishers but VCs were like the game that you helen it was like you started off 85 was it 17 million or something
we didn't really start to go down at some point I just said we had seen

everybody we had gone through um one with uh six interviews and uh and we we thought uh okay this is it right and we're going on the seventh one and the seventh one they just said let's do a call did a call and said uh Hey, thank you. We we've decided uh to say no at this time. And I'm like, wait a second. I thought we become friends. Like you could say no, but this way, you know, and um so I, you know, politics started getting involved too. There's a lot of around the world,
you know, things that were were happening as well. And it was a rough time. Um and just uh at some point we all just agreed I'm just said I I I don't want to do this anymore.
Yeah.
Um and uh and I'm not going to make the game. But it's not that I didn't go out

designing a game for, you know, 40 million. Could I take a game and make it smaller? Yeah. But at some point you go, "Well, wait, you know, that's not the game I made."
Yeah. Um, and then uh and so it took some time and uh you know I had a big art show in the middle of all this. I had a big show in in San Francisco. Uh so I was working my butt off at the same time as I'm doing these pitches and stuff and uh I mean I'm in my new art studio now. I just I just moved in two days ago.
Oh nice. Uh, so everything's still a mess. So, and then at the same time, I'm writing I'm writing ideas. I got a bunch of game ideas. Um, maybe five that uh definitely games. And uh and I have an I have a bunch of ideas that I could I I'd love to see made into a Netflix movies

or something like that cuz they wouldn't make a game, would they make a great movie? Um, I don't even know how to go about with those.
Well,
but what I have decided Oh, go ahead.
Go. Go on. Didn't I see a post you say about there was you've got a single player idea or something that you seen a bit of renewed interest in that area of the industry?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. It's um I've had it for a while and it's based on um one thing that I had read. It's funny how ideas come. Um, one thing I read a long time ago, five years ago, was that Ramsy's VI is the only pharaoh never to be found. They don't know where he's buried. They can't find his pyramid. And so they're still looking in the Valley of the Kings. But my premise is it's not there.

And so it's a dark action adventure, you know, big action. Uh it it's monsters and stuff, not just um but it's uh there's some I can't get into it too much. Uh
no, don't spoil it. Yeah, hopefully it gets I actually played um an Egyp's not many games set in that kind of world. I played um a remake of a game called uh Powers Slave or Exumed I think it was called. It's a Doom style um uh sort of Metroid Vanery type game from the '9s. Right.
Right. Right.
Nobody played it. Night Dive recently remastered it. It's very good. I had played that recently and I did think to myself when I played it, this is we don't see much of this outside of like levels in 3D platformers that you know in that sort of Egypty
Yeah.
style thing. No, this has got um what was happening was this was that same idea I had when we went out with Heli,

but I wasn't satisfied with the ending. And so uh and I had really been thinking about it for a while and uh I kept going round and round and then uh one day it just hit me the ending and at the same time this this how ideas
come for me sometimes is just in a whole wave of like here's here's that ending and oh by the way there's a there's a sequel that can be made of this and there's a new mechanic and you know
I just have notes so I just take uh hundreds of nodes.
Would you do it on a budget? Is it is it a game that fits in the current um conservative landscape?
Not necessarily. Um but it's conservative for what you would call AAA. It's under under 100 100 million. haven't gotten down um to exactly, but um yes, because of design um I bet I could do it for

you know what my agent's working on, you know, the his group is they're working on the um I gave them a budget and they're working on it and going through it. So
um they're you know all acts and stuff and so
um I I don't want to quote it yet.
Okay, wait a second. But yes, I can get it much cheaper. I can get it definitely cheaper because there's a big design thing in there with the overlapping.
Yeah. Yeah.
No, I'm really excited about it. That's what you know I was thinking about retiring not retiring from games industry but retiring from directing and um I can't you know you just don't go well I'm going to put my shovel down and uh I'm done. I'm done because you still have ideas. You still want to make stuff.
Yeah.
You know I'm still looking forward. I'm not looking behind. So, and and you know what, dude? Kalisto

was really a really tough. There was a tough because we had to transition 200 people. We didn't even have them yet all over the world. You got to get 200 dev kits. There were no chips at the time. It was it was a it was a freaking mess. I had two major operations during co knee replacement and shoulder. And um I put on a lot of weight. I was not myself and and uh I've lost 90 lbs.
Oh, wow.
I got in shape. I go to the gym all the time now again, which is what I used to do. And so, you know, I I was getting back to do one more marathon at least, you know.
Mhm.
So, um yeah, I'm going to jump back in there. And, uh the rejection part to be honest, a lot of people were giving me, you know, I'm sorry, dude. I'm sorry. But as an artist and a creative person, your whole life is there's rejection all over. Even if you're making Call of Duty, somebody

will go, I I hate your freaking mechanic, you know? So,
you can handle it.
Yes.
Well, this is this is the thing, right? You you talk about you are a veteran. You know, you mentioned in one of your posts how concerned about younger people who are out of work at the industry now.
Yes.
I actually spoke to um Amir Savvat, who has uh been building this community of people looking for work, and he gave us this horrifying stat. People with less than three years experience working video games who are looking for work today have between a five and 7% chance of finding a job in video games. It increases obviously the more when it gets to people who have been more experienced, but actually if you get to people who are over 50, the number moves to 5 to 7% again. Um that feels like a real problem and I have no idea what the solution is other than you know uh more investment. Well, you know, the uh I wouldn't doubt there's statistics like that, but uh you know, uh I know we're definitely always looking for uh uh uh smart people right out of school. And uh I mean, I I grabbed seven

um right from this one class. Uh and all seven of them started and shipped the game. So, I don't think you're going to ever they're they're going to come back and and and get jobs again. Um, look, that's another reason why I'm trying to see if I can find a find a gig is to show people um, hey, it's not dead yet. It's not dead. And as a matter of fact, um, it's not dead because some freaking executive um, says that AAA is dead and you're you get out of the industry. and and and I'm I say that because I do read a lot and I do go after them um in in hopefully intelligent enough ways and let's let's be honest here everybody's spouting out about AI AI I am in the thick of things I'm trying stuff out I'm not and I am not a technical guy so I'm trying these things out the one thing that they always tout is like well you can make

great concept art and you can you can make movies you can make cinematics Do you know the last thing that the fans were telling us? Don't make cinematics. You know, that's that's what we hear. And now you're telling me AI. So, look, AI is going to be fantastic. And I'm already getting I do a few talks and I'm going to be showing how AI is really can increase uh efficiencies amongst uh creative people. I want to do that with other stuff. It's so far gone. It's so far like um you know somebody the other day hit me up on it and said look I can I can make I can make your game one of your games in 3 months and in uh uh with 80% less people 20% of the people you like okay let's just start with the animation track okay so you make concept art now you got a character now you take

the character and you pull it out into 3D Maybe you can do that. You're going to have a million tweaks you're going to have to do cuz our directors aren't going to want it right at first the exact same way. It is. And then who's putting the skeleton in? Oh, they're going to put a skeleton in and they're going to move it every direction that we think. And we have departments to do that. And then it's got to go from the skeleton. It's got to go get the animation and you got to pick all the animation. So someday, 10 years, 5 years, it'll be here. But is he going to be an engine? Is he going to be a whole bunch? Right now it's a whole bunch of things that just kind of sock it in and probably into what? So because I don't think the Unreal Engine is sitting there and going, "Oh, I heard about this thing over in Utah that they're making uh for advanced something and let's plug it in." So, it's going to be like the beginning of any kind of new technology in my

opinion. Everybody's rushing to get into it. Even the old big companies, you know, with uh Google and and Meta and and all that. Got a million people jumping into it. It's going to have to like settle down a little bit before we can actually use it. So, we got to continue to make games. So, I look for clever ideas to make the game cheaper. At the same time, I always be looking for tools. Somebody was they were saying that the uh AAA, you know, you're not you don't look for tools, but that's all we do. We always are want tools, right? We have tools departments. So, yeah, we're always trying to make it make it uh cheaper if we can and and more efficient and faster and better. Doesn't that make it We're talking about the question before was about sort of talent and jobs not being there. I'm always a bit concerned about I'm not to say concerned but I think that's the

concern isn't it about AI is that what that mean for creative people who you know artists or or anyone that might be looking to get into this space early doors we know kids coming into schools and universities now are there going to be the jobs for them if one of the things I've always had with AI is that um a lot of the things I started doing even as a journalist which I was doing when I joined you don't need people to do that anymore and it is that's simple things like transcription and stuff like And I always concern AI always looks back. It's not necessarily looking forward, right? And yeah, there's load of disperate thoughts there that I'm just throwing out. There's there's the people catastrophizing and then there's the people that think it's going to be a game changer for he's going to democratize stuff. And
oh man, obviously I I'm my not only my industry, but my profession, the creative profession is like right in the right in the crosshairs of this discussion. And um all I can say is that you know the you know I remember when uh you know this is this is really long when when like these

brand new the the new types of airbrushes came out right and then people started picking them up and they're like dude being able to make balloons look good and things look round and everything. They weren't artists. They're like look look at this. Wow. Airbrush is going to take artist job. Then they put the airbrush in the hands of the artists and then I'm saying airbrush but actually um it was more like I don't remember when now Photoshop was coming out. Okay, now anybody who did who actually did airbrush and did anything like that they were sort of out of work because computers are going to make it faster. I now now had to undo. I now could add airbrush techniques within seconds and all that. But then everything just got more complicated. Uh I remember when when motion capture, you know, that was going to take jobs away and what what I look at animation departments now and

and you know they could be 30 people.
So you think it raises the bar?
Absolutely. It always raises the bar. It's raising it now for me when I'm uh you know coming up with ideas or coming up with worlds or uh you know I dig dig dig really really deep now with uh with AI stuff and the the biggest problem I have is trying to co through some of these because I'm I'm going in different directions and and then I'm taking it into midjourney and I wish I had ways I could just take things into midJourney and then I wish that I that it could art direct like me and pick out the top 10. So, I see ways that I could be really efficient in actually showing my vision,
right? I could I can get this all out. And I've done all my own pitches and all that, but yeah, playing it through and and and I wish I could, you know, predict what jobs I I hear people going, um, well, we're going to have, uh, prompt engineers, and we probably will,

but I tend to think I'm already going to chat and going, okay, this is the description of what I I what I want. Write me a write me a very detailed prompt. and about 50% work,
you know. So, you know what I mean? I can get that number will get better. So, there's at some point even prompts would be taken away, but there's going to be other jobs. I don't know exactly what they are. Um, we are going to need artists. I mean, that you can't just go press a button and now I've got this world, right? That's what, you know, the guy says, you know, I press a button, I got a world in like 10 minutes. I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Where where those little hidden places that you want the character to be and like you got the tree and you got to move the tree over and you got Come on."
Yeah. AI naturally, you know, what's the next world going to look like? And can

AI work out what the what what they will look like with surely that's going to come from human imagination.
Yeah. But if you use AI enough, you start to see patterns.
I see patterns in my journey all the time. Now, a post you did a little while ago spoke to me. It changed the subject entirely. It was around wanting an awards event, and I don't know if it's an award event, but I do think I do think we lost something when we lost E3 as an industry. Um, it was like it's a biggest one of the biggest moments in entertainment. I mean, Summer GameFest is great. It's wonderful. Gamescom is awesome. The Game Awards, I think that's probably the closest thing we've got to an E3 scale moment, but I do feel like we're missing that big look at us. And when we're in an industry that's in a bit depressed, right, which we are as as people within the industry as with the industry itself, having a cultural moment where we get to say, look how look at the awesome stuff everyone's creating and having that big epic, it doesn't have to be in June, but it was to be in June showcase. I do think not only are we missing something there culturally, but I think we're missing there so sort of emotionally in as a as

an industry. Something that
Yeah. brings people together, gets people excited, gets people talking. And we have all of these hundreds now, and they're excellent. They're all excellent. Tiny, well, a lot of them are tiny little events or small events, mid-size events all over the place, but I just think when I just think the industry is missing something since uh and maybe it's because we had it for so long um since E3. So, it really spoke to me that that post you did on LinkedIn.
Yeah. No, I'm um I'm glad I'm glad it did because uh for developers. It was just amazing. I mean, I think I mentioned it in that one in which every time I went down there, which was every year, I came back with something that made my game better. We all did. We all did cuz we were so excited to show each other, you know, my friends down at Naughty Dog, you know, and they're like, "Dude, you got to see this new game. You got to do this." I'm like, "Oh, you got to see this new tech." Because when we're down there, we're not like competition. We're this

brotherhood and sisterhood of developers, right? And it's so good once a year that you would show each other what you're working on and you would go back all the time and make your game better. At the same time, it is that big thing that you're talking about. It's uh it was also a forcing function. we all had to get our game and that's, you know, I' I've heard the companies saying, "Well, we don't want them, you know, having to worry about this thing every year." I think it was more about money. Um, I'm not really sure why because when they started splitting and going, "We're going to go be across the street." I'm like, "Well, I'm not going there. It's too hot." You know what I mean? It's like, why have a show and then everybody's outside? I've got to go through got to go through security and I've got to go through security one security and through another security then get back through security again. I I hated that.
It's interesting whenever I do the summer gamefest I run into I don't know Eve Gillimo or Phil Spencer or some of

the CEOs and they all talk like they miss E3. All of them do and they always say like we want to bring it something back. We want to do something back and yet obviously I'm assuming I I I'm playing out the journey in my head. They say that and then someone puts it in a plan and a CFO sees it and goes, "No,
because there's no ROI."
Yeah.
On uh Oh, wait a second. Glenn here said he got a new mechanic. So, it's and and new technology Jimmy got, but I I don't I don't know how I can write it down. So, I I understand that. And uh that it's not quantifiable, but it it's real.
Yeah. Um, a lot of things in creative aren't quantifiable, right? Um, make it more blue. You know,
it's it's it's yeah, it's talking about it ties into everything we've been talking about here, whether it's AAA or or whatever, in that the only way to get out of challenge times and the games industry is still selling. Let's be clear here. It's still a massive, massive mega industry.
Yeah.

The only way to get out is to create stuff and make stuff that resonates and speaks to people and gets people excited about things. And we can talk about business models and subscription services and and and streaming platforms and AI. I'm talking about all of these different things, but all it comes down to making stuff I think to that time wouldn't, you know, he said, I'm not cutting cost cuz the only way Nintendo is going to be successful again is if we make something people want to play and it wasn't about and that is and I think it's the challenge of trying to make a business out of art really. Um, I guess it's always the the the challenge any artistic industry has to face. Yeah,
no question there.
No, no. I mean, I feel like during COVID that the wrong people were chosen in many cases to run a game and run a studio. And I mean, I saw lead designers get all of a sudden you're going to direct a game. Um, oh, and by the way, it's your studio, too. So, hey, you get to run it. I mean, it took me a long time to get to this, to be running the studio, running your own game, that sort

of thing. and and so it was given to people who didn't have that knowledge yet of like
being a director dude
you're 24/7 man you're 24/7 and you're every aspect of the game all the time
there was all these new studios being opened all these new teams being formed
yes exactly and they've all failed many of them
we didn't have enough talent to lead these studios all these new teams that we were all be starting up and that involved hiring people and speed, you know, you it involves poaching people if you could, but ultimately you're probably having to speedrun people into positions they may maybe they weren't ready for. I I
How good are you at hiring, you know? Now all of a sudden you've got to hire every department and and you know, so it's every aspect now HR and and and marketing and all this, you know,
it is a lot to put on people and if they aren't, you've got to be creative all the time, right? you got to be one of those people that it doesn't shut down in my opinion

because it's just it's it's all the time um when you're making a game. That's what I love about it. But uh that's also the tough part and um and it's not for everyone,
you know, just like everything isn't. But
so to me it's uh right now you're right. I think they need to invest in a couple of people to just let's make something big, right? Let's make something big and bold and and show them that we still can. And you want to try and make it cheaper? Sure, man. And definitely ways that we can make these cheaper. Um AI is kicking in and by the end of the game, there'll probably be enough AI in there to save even more money. I don't know. We'll see. Um man, I am 100% behind it because, you know, I've been there for a lot of these. I was there for the beginning of the internet. They're like, "Oh, the internet. Uh a website. Everybody's gonna have a website, you know, and now everybody does, you know." So, um, AI's comet, it's here. Just work with it.
Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, I'm I'm looking forward I'm I'm looking forward to making another game and trying to get see this industry get out of it. I'm going to be, uh, doing the the keynote for uh, Gamescom Asia, which is a really big show. Um, I guess about 200,000 people there
in Thailand, isn't it?
Yeah. and and my message is positive because these things, you know, uh in economics, these things are cyclical. This might be a big cycle. Games are going to come back. I don't know exactly in what way. They're going to change a bit. They're coming back. You don't tell a billion people like, you know what, Triple A's dead and they go, yeah, you know, we agreed and um you know, this and that. No, I mean these are people they all have their own likes and dislikes.
So
yeah, and we're a broader industry today. The idea of anything really being dead, nothing's dead. People still buy

magazines. Still people still buy video games in boxes. People still do buy 3D platformers, right? Though it's
Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. I still buy it.
Well, Glenn, I've taken up way too much of your time.
I appreciate it. So, but thank you. It's been a real pleasure hearing your experiences and I do I I really do hope you get that game made. I sounds great to me.
We'll make sure.
Thank you everyone for listening or watching at home. We'll be back with all sorts of news analysis and interviews. Uh if you want to keep track of all that stuff we're doing, just head to the gamebus.com, sign up to our newsletter if you haven't already, and you'll receive all our updates. That's it for today. Until next time, thank you for tuning in.
Thank you. I appreciate it. What is the greatest horror film of all time?
Alien.
Will game streaming ever become a mainstream proposition?
Yes.
Best album of all time?
That's a hard one. Boston's first.
If you could be the game director of any

existing video game franchise that you haven't already worked up, what would it be?
Alien, Gears of War, Road Warrior.
Console or PC? console.
Whatever work you're doing, what's the first thing you do in the morning?
I go to the gym.
What's one thing games companies should be thinking about but probably aren't?
New ideas.
Is video game subscriptions a good thing or a bad thing?
It's a good thing for older games.
If you could run one other video game studio, which would it be?
I would like to run a Call of Duty studio. G. No.