What Gaming Taught Them—And Why App Companies Are Hiring Them Fast with Mission One's Gerard Miles

[Music] Jar, so you've been on forefront of executive recruitment for soon what two decades and on previous episode we talked a lot about games industry, but lately you know I've been hearing more and not just hearing interacting more with games professionals making the leap from games into the broader app space. What's driving the shift and why now? Thanks, Mishkar, and thanks for having us on on the show. Uh, again, I think, you know, you're right. I think we're seeing this real growth in an era we sort of call games plus or consumer plus uh type type apps particularly, but actually it's broader across across the technology stack. And I think, you know, there's a couple of things that are driving this. One is is games has become a much more mature uh sector, right? If you go back to pre20, I think just perception-wise, and I'm curious on your own experiences

here, Mishka, but perception wise, games was seen as quite a niche area, um, targeting quite a niche demographic, right? It's quite particular type of people who played games and people who made games. And I think so awareness and you see this across the stack, right? You see it from investors were not really investing in games, right? there's a handful of games focused like like probably two games focused investors now probably you and I could come up with a list of 20 in Europe or something like that right so you've seen that expansion of capital you've seen more recently private equity becoming a lot more interesting in it uh you've seen you know some senior shifts on on executives sort of moving between between the two two areas uh obviously you see Microsoft really expanding in there so games as as as a sort of awareness has has greatly expanded and if you go through that 2010 2020 20 phase, I think you sort of see the huge growth in mobile, right, to the to to a massive sector from virtually no no sector in terms of of of mobile gaming. Uh, and clearly mobile gaming was was particularly doing things I think a lot

better than other sectors, right? It was becoming it was getting up the learning curve faster around different things. In one area might be around data, you know, I think King really led the charge on data, right? like it just had a very smart efficient way of segmenting data users understanding them better. You know the other really clear way I think was in product um where you know again mobile gaming was was really leading the charge on understanding um you know what do users want? How do we motivate them? You know, I think again the rise of fremium as an idea, right? Play was really, you know, driven most successfully in in the mobile game sector. And and if we look at to where we are in 2025 today, I think, you know, we're in that post where there's a lot of that that talent which has now matured over that period. So, you've got more mature executives, you got people who've been through these these sort of places and they're no longer it wasn't just startups, they sort of go from startup to scale or they've come in at a more scale. Um and and a lot of

companies are now um you know over the last five years have been looking at okay how do we take um you know that talent and those ideas and apply it to um our own our own products and I think you know also can't not talk about Dualingo right who who obviously I think you the Dolingo effect right and again I think particularly 3 four years ago probably like the buzzword of gamification was around a lot how do we gamify this right and we saw a lot of bad attempts at this right or or or or difficult attempts uh because it's not easy, right? If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Um so I'd say probably four or five years ago, we saw that gamification element. I would say we're now in a slightly more advanced element of that where actually we're seeing not just this sort of so gamification for our users obviously this idea of of taking consumer app like Julink as a good example and making it more like a game, right? Bringing in features and designs like a game. So that's one element. Now I'd say we're also seeing though other ideas come in. So, so one is around technology, right? So, people are now building more in

Unity uh particularly uh and therefore they might want engineering talent from from the games world, right? Like they might and it might have a more sort of engaging feel from it. So, they want to bring in a you know an engineering leader who who understands that. So, that's that's one area. Another more subtle area is sometimes around the the areas of monetization. So it might be no it might not be gamified yet if you're building something that is free to use uh and doing microtransactions inapp purchases uh through your through your um your mobile consumer app then you might want to go to mobile games because clearly that that that knowledge and understanding is is is far advanced. So we've se seen the rise of the the sort of the also the the company that doesn't even look like a games company who is mysteriously saying like we want somebody from games right and doesn't and and doesn't really necessarily know that market but they want to come in and and find that person to to help them grow and drive and understand their users better. A few things that I've noticed for example is that companies really hate

the word gamification. By companies I mean uh app companies and the second part is is definitely the the point of g apps bringing more and more of the app store revenues. But I wanted to ask you of like these app companies hiring gaming people. um what what's the type of a background of of a person that these app companies are looking for? Like you mentioned um product understanding, you mentioned especially live ops and monetization probably growth like what what what are the type of a characteristics or skill sets that are being looked at? Web stores you've seen what good looks like but have you seen great? Appch charge is the direct to consumer platform backed by the likes of Supercell and built by monization pros from Moonactive, Platika, Huge Games and others, people who know the difference. App charge

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link in the podcast description below or go to appslier.com and search the state of creative optimization. That's appslire.com. Yeah, it's it's a great question, Mishk. And I think I'd cover it with saying that actually it's still a very fragmented market, right? When I was talking about that that space of, you know, games plus. So, this could be games and fitness. This could be games and healthcare, right? We saw one client of ours historically that was trying to build a product to help children with um uh shortsightedness, right? And it was about a game that was like a a VR AR type product and it was about stretching your eye muscles by focusing on things further and close together. Yeah. Like really creative, right? Like so that is you know like you're literally trying to heal someone physically uh and and and you know stave off um short-sightedness and and apparently China is like demographic like demographic is really on the rise right uh in terms of um you know number of people need glasses and and getting very short-sighted. So we're talking about sort of solving national

health crisis potentially. Um you know so games and fitness, games and fashion you know it's a big rise of that you know I think it's still sort of nent but a lot of interest in in in that that sort of space of accessorizing. Uh games and learning is another area and and it's good to treat them all games and media is another area. Um it's good to treat them quite separately right there's not this like nice of games plus bucket where you can sort of like map them all out and go like here's here's the bucket. it really is sort of subsectors of those bigger um bigger markets uh that we're talking about. So the sort of the needs are are quite individual uh to to whatever you're trying to do because if you're trying to build a fitness app it's very different potentially from if you're trying to build a a training app right like or something like that. So it it can vary but I would say to answer I think the clear answer to your question is um monetization uh that that's a big area so business performance live operations product you know sort of sitting within that those those areas um potentially

feature design as well so product features or design features design could be another area um again if if if you're looking for depending on the look and feel you're you're going for um again in Europe perhaps so the the pool of design candidates is not as strong in in particularly Western Europe as as another areas. So you're looking at games as as perhaps a relatively stronger market. I think there's more more strength in say North America. Um technology engineering uh there as well. Um you know and occasionally I think you could look at sort of COO type type roles but um uh uh there. So I would say those are the main ones. I think you know if you look at something like marketing or finance those functions I think they've always been more fluid across across the different sectors anyway. You know I think if you were a marketer from king or something like that you probably finding 10 years ago or eight years quite easy to move into a marketing role in another consumer company. Right. So I think that still goes on but that's or finance or again there's specifics

around the very very sort of specific flywheel that if you're a mobile games company you want to hire a finance individual who really understands that but I'd say that's as a skill set those two functions probably have always just found it a little bit more easy to move across and there's less of that premium on oh you did games right being super relevant to us whereas as those former functions I was mentioning there around product engineering um you know design. Those are probably areas where I'd say the the demand is increasing for those functions to come across uh from games into other sectors. Interesting. Interesting. Uh and when we think about different types of app companies like you mentioned of course Duolingo like learning companies, uh health and fitness companies, are there other different types of sectors that are particularly hungry for games talent? I think media is another one there and it's a broader media. So, um, yeah, I think and again, you sort of talking about subscription. What I again as a

slight tangent, I suppose it's kind of interesting, um, and I'm curious what so I'm sure you and your colleagues have views on this of of the sort of the the subscription model versus, um, inapp purchase model of monetization. And I think we saw a rise of like, you know, sort of the Netflix effect, right? Like they're like, "Wow, Netflix great model, right? They've got these subscribers. Is it?" Well, this is my point, right? I think there was this like you know when it's on ascendancy right there this sort of this sort of view of like wow you know this is great you're just getting and they're pretty sticky right and etc etc but I think now we're seeing the sort of the other side of that a little bit of the of the okay but actually you know you're capping out the the value or the spend of users right because you're you're already paying x many dollars a month right it's 10% $10 and you're capping out amount of users doing both exactly so so and I I think you You're seeing industries sort of thinking about that model and you know we we had a we had a client who uh they are in the space um of uh short

format or uh audio uh stories. So this is uh you know five 10-minute episodes um they're called Pocket FM to give them a shout out. And um uh they were they had a subscription model that's originally started with a subscription model like you pay I don't know $5 a month and you get access to all the stories in in the library. Great. And and that was really not like really pushing them very far, right? Like they just found that's quite a difficult model to get traction with. They then moved to a premium model and and and saw growth of 500% in a year, right? It wasn't just overnight, but I think it's it's ramped up to that, you know, where they suddenly really exploded. And they very much had this insight of, you know, and then the model was, you know, listen to two, three stories of a of an arc, you're enjoying that, great. You want to buy the next one, it's 99 cents. And by that point, you're invested, right? You want to find out what happens at the end of that story. It's quite a low amount for you compared to the value proposition. You're invested. Now, there's like, you know, a thousand

stories in this this this series, right? Or whatever it is, right? So, you know, if you want to keep going, you know, you're you're again, no once, you know, you've got that choice of like of perceiving that value, are you going to keep going, you know, with that and and and you feel in control, but if you are a super fan of that story, like you're you're getting great value and you're happy to commit, you know, more of your capital to that. Um, versus, you know, if you don't like it, you're like, well, I'm not going to listen to anymore and I I don't feel like I've lost anything and, you know, I'm not sort of thinking like, I've got to cancel that subscription. Uh, you know, every time you see it sort of come out of your bank balance there. So and again it's a side point but I think regulators are also less worried about some of those those those issues as well. I know in certain countries you know subscription is is is trickier in the regular size. So so I think you know we are seeing these different types of um areas I said I the the key the key areas would be um uh u uh some some of the growth areas would be around things like fitness uh uh potentially some mental health that's that's a tricky one. Um I think certainly you know we're seeing a rise

you know obviously there's a lot of we haven't talked about AI yet. I think there's a lot of uh as AI tries to find this sort of use case, right? Like what's the really great use case for consumer with AI and I think we've seen an evolution over the last last year of of that. You know, we currently got a a client, for example, that's building a companion app, you know, that they're it's like a buddy, right? Like it's a AI buddy with some of them. Exactly. And I think we're seeing a real rise of that. And you know, they're a million downloads a few months after launch. you know, they're doing like millions in revenue like you know, like again like a lot of numbers that a lot of mobile games companies be like drooling over of like how do I get that right? But you know that's a that's a new field that didn't didn't really exist right I mean two years ago. So um or maybe you know what I mean like it was you know what was it didn't sort of have the same powering right that now is enabled by LLMs and you know sort of models. So, um I would say I'd say the there's both some areas where we're seeing it and I would also say there are new areas um

where it's emerging. You know, I still get the sense that you know sort of that that crossover between music and games is still like not cracked. Um I think you know what we saw with Epic were doing they were hosting concerts in Fortnite. That's really interesting. Still do that innovation. Still do. Exactly. So that was a big sort of push for them. Um, you know, we've seen a few um sort of game you got the next beat game, you know, uh, the guys out of space, you know, they came up with this really cool game like this, you know, um, Beat Star, right? Like it's, you know, so there's there's sort of been innovations, but I I still feel like that's a market that still is this sort of this soupiness between broader entertainment and games still still feels like there could be more harmonization. And and again what we haven't talked about which I think is interesting is also driving all of this right all this you know this whole conversation about the the the broader merging between consumer and games is is demographically obviously the the younger generations coming through are

so much more used to games experiences in their youth that they then expect to see them emulated in other areas. Right? Whether that's cons like consumer right? whether you're buying things online or whether it's you're you're learning a language or whether that's you're learning to play a musical instrument or you know whatever it is or you're socializing with your friends right and I think interestingly we saw Voodoo by Be Real and I'm sure there's um you know many different reason be real is a big um social media big it's a social media platform of of some scales acquired by Voodoo the hyper casual um uh uh mobile games developer um so so we're seeing this uh and again I don't think we've seen the flow through to the product but it's kind of interesting like that That dynamic is kind of interesting, right? So, I think we're going to see this sort of the Roblox generation, if I can call them that, right? That played a lot of Roblox with their kids and now they're, you know, young adults, their spending power is going up. And that is also a driving factor of of the of the um sort of the joining of the two worlds.

Whereas, I suppose if you're sort of boomer generation or millennial or something like that, maybe you expect to have things a little bit more um uh categorized, right? Like you don't expect your banking app to be like your Candy Crush app, right? It's just you don't put those together because you're like, well, that's, you know, mentally you don't you don't sort of cue them up. I'm I'm not an expert on on Gen Z, Gen A at all, but from the outside, I think that's a really interesting like hard to understand demographic from the outside because their their way of thinking, the way that they're consuming content, the way that they're being influenced in what they want is very different, I think, from from previous generations. And that that has a flow through to the product and it has a flow through to both games, but then I said games is then flowing through to to broader consumer. The way we've been working with with app companies uh that that we found after you know almost two years is we focus on engagement and that's really the key because the engagement

is a sign that you're providing value. Uh I know that many of the app companies and you can see it in reviews that when they have those below three star reviews it means that they're trying to monetize really quickly with that subscription sign up. So they do a perfect onboarding flow, promise you the moon, get you to subscribe and then get complaints and one-star reviews that this is a scam and then they simply launch a new app. And there's ton of those apps unfortunately being launched. So it's a bad trend and many of them are AI app against ADHD or all that kind of like where they where they, you know, put themselves as a as a utility app as a service provider. then go for the quick cash and just burn. So, um focusing on engagement that's that's something that we've especially on the product side have been doing. Uh monetize like it's it's acquire retain monetize and so specifically adding

progression mechanics into apps which they currently don't have has been a really fun challenge because if you consider like if you've been watching Netflix for 10 years now is it any difference for if I started watching Netflix today? It's like, yeah, it's a little bit personalized to your taste, but doesn't really celebrate you as a a decade old customer and doesn't open up specific things for you as a as a retained customer that you would lose should your retention plummet. So, those are kind of that's a really interesting point you pick up there about. It's about like how do you treat customers differently, right? Like how do you personalize that experience? And and again, I think it's a really interesting one for for mobile games actually because they it's sort of emphasized, right, in mobile games because you have to keep producing content for your users. And I I see this a lot particularly with midcore games more more than casual games, right? Like like if you load up a 10-year-old midcore game, right? It's a horrible experience often, right? You're getting like so many pigs about stuff and like there's just so much overwhelm there. And I've

spoken to a lot of you product execs in in midcross saying like they come in and then are trying to take that weight out but the problem is you've got this very long user base right who always want more content they need the new stuff right they need the complexity they they can't go backwards so it's and I don't know if if I'd be curious to see who you think who solves that that best actually but that's that's a really good point about how do you you know solving that challenge of particularly as again because the whole of consumer app right is getting more legacy right like that is becoming it wasn't legacy 10 years ago. It's all new. Um, but like how do you how do you keep it fresh and how do you keep it, you know, evolving and and Netflix is another good example because um they're obviously trying to bring games in and I'm sure you've done all sorts of turns on this. Um uh and I you know they're on their second run, let's put it that way. Yeah. Well, on I did Yeah. Yeah. Rather cheekily. They all changed the other week. I thought there was massive change going on at Netflix. They all changed their profiles. Uh, but they had all changed to working for a

company for um there was a Black Mirror because they're doing some Black Mirror tie-in. So, I thought I had a moment of like half an hour. I thought like all the games team at Netflix had left, but all they done was just doing the Supercell did with the uh with a Moco. It's like everyone's going No, it's not going to stop. Mishka, oh my god, it's disgusting. Like once it's fine, but then when somebody does it like two months later, it's like come on. Yeah, it was it was a little bit derivative. Um but uh uh there we go. But um what's the other thing? Oh, the other thing is now again a slight tangent, but obviously uh I don't know where this is going to go out, but the the other day the Oblivion got launched um the remastered with no marketing and now everyone is a Gogg about like the way to market is not to market. And I I'm not quite sure again there better people to talk about that, but I'm sure we'll now see a wave of of of sort of uh mimicry of of trying to find innovative ways of highlighting things. as to drag us back on topic. So, so I think no, but but Netflix is an interesting one as well because obviously they're they're trying to really experiment with bringing in these

games, both games they're making themselves, but actually as well they're also making a lot of games on on Roblox as well. So, they are both uh there's games in the platform, but they're also trying to like think about their IP um and and spinning that out and and and again, actually, I'm sure you're seeing this. I think, you know, a big trend that we're seeing clearly with mobile games, right, is is the the conservativism of launching without an MP at IP behind you, right? Like we're seeing that with a lot of our clients, new games, they want to have a big IP, right, to because the cost of cost per install is very difficult, right? Like it's long lockdown documented problems with Apple and and all that, right? Of launching new games and and sort of the safe way of d-risking this is obviously is building out the IP. uh and again just to make a tenious link to what we're talking about here though but I think that's another area of of cross cross talent polonization right so so so people who have and maybe it's actually the other way in of people who are around games looking way in actually that that knowledge of how do you use IP is is valuable and actually I've seen that actually with mobile actually

mobile games product roles um whereas pre you know they might say like obviously we want people with mobile experience but they might say actually hey if you've worked on a big PC console game that had a big IP behind Yeah, maybe that that understanding of your user base, that understanding of that that difficulty of how do you merge those two things is is the value piece, right? Coming into mobile versus like lots of people know how to do, you know, free freeto-play game mechanics, right? Operations, etc. So, so that that might just be to reverse the trend a little bit of like where is games bringing in new talent that it wasn't as opposed to like going the outflow the other way. Um, I think we've seen that because there's a difference between targeting the the fan of the IP and targeting the the fan of the genre, right? And and if you can understand those differences and those nuances, then that's, you know, that you can crack that because we've seen some very highprofile I IP backed games, right, recently. I'd never like to call out anyone, but there's there's names we could name. We'd say like that were not

very successful, right? and they had the big IPs behind them, but they didn't convert through to great games and they didn't convert to to the expectations of the of of of the developers. M I'm curious about that. Are you see are you seeing that sort of that sort of flow or you you sort of picking up that sort of interest in IP? Are you seeing something different? Yeah. Just to derisk, right, is I'm just like seeing a lot of concern about like new games is scary without an IP. Well, I I would say new games are always scary. uh scaling is very difficult but you kind of like taking away IP out and let's say talking about IPs or celebrities however you want to put it and just kind of like breaking down the problem like why is this happening well number one is it's standing out in the attention economy like it's important to be a little bit different and art style is just not enough anymore uh of course what you mentioned is increase in UI efficiency so you would assume that your CPIs go down your store conversion rate goes up and perhaps even the first time flow and kind of like the the trust of the player towards your game increases because you're not just another puzzle game,

strategy game, card game, solitary game. You're you're the game that is, you know, that has a Spider-Man in it or Marvel or Star Wars or LeBron. But again, that's that's not a guarantee. And when you consider the CMOs, probably the type of people that you're looking for, why do they use these different IPs is of course they have a pressure to scale these new games. So that's that's number one. Uh their user acquisition channels might be plateaued. Uh it might go really expensive really fast and so they're trying to you know make the UA more efficient, stay out of the crowd and so forth. Um there's a brand positioning like brand has become more important in in mobile gaming. It's like now your game actually is aimed for somebody and not you know Meta doesn't find that somebody to play your game. It's like you actually have to know who you're making this for and why they should be playing this. And most importantly when we look at the companies that are actually scaling like

launching and scaling new games those are big companies now. And big companies sit on big war chests. And when you sit on big war chest like what's a $10 million on a on a campaign with you know I wanted to say Kate Upton but that was with 10 years ago but let's say it with Shakira or somebody else like now it's uh it's much I like where you updated your reference to Shakira also like very artist I wouldn't say old lady but um I wouldn't say that at all like Jennifer Lopez. Oh yeah, actually no, no, but kind of speaks of the longevity of their IPs, if you will, of their their but uh but in the end like they always, you know, put it around ROI, but it's not that you just slam in an IP and it's an instant success as you said, but of course having that experience of working with IPs is important because um let's say I have a couple of IP games that I've done and when I talk to studios that are for the first time engaging with an IP, they

think It's going to be this magical process where they get a seal of approval, uh, a set of a set of assets and promotion from that IP and everything is going to be hunky dory, but they don't understand the approval processes and all the elements that go around it. So, I totally understand that there are companies that are looking for using IPs and also looking for people who have experience working with IP holders because that is a whole different ballgame. Game devs, we know that great gameplay is what players love, but integrating metagame features like challenges, progression, rewards is crucial for retention and monetization. However, coding them is a tedious and timeconuming process. That's why top studios have turned to Hero. Hero provides a complete suite of battle tested metagame features that are quick to implement, letting you spend more time on the core gameplay experience. Ready to ship fully featured, engaging games? Check out Hero

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sensortowwer.com. That is sensortow.com. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think you're right there. So So that is a different ball game with those IP holders. And I think um you know as we were touching on it as well we were sort of joking about the Moco which I I thought was a great launch right again I thought the launch was fantastic and I think the team over at Supercell did you know really great job with that um gorilla uh gorilla like but like yeah like you know really really really different and and I and but reflective like of the market right I think even broader trends like everyone is trying to innovate right like or trying to find some sort of edge uh to to to do something differently and I think yeah going I know I'll go back to that point around you because the market's got tougher in mobile games. I think I think we're seeing you know more of this sort of creativity around like how we how we acquiring users which is exactly what you're talking about. I mean IP is not very creative way. It's

it's a more tried and tested way right but it's it's it's way where people are trying to use it in in a smart way. I I also think and going back to our theme of the crossover between games and broader consumer you know this idea of making games that are you know like tick tockable as it were. I don't know if that's a that's an an adjective, but you know, how do you like where are your users getting their their um their inspiration, right? You know, like what are the motivations that's pushing you to play a game? Is it, hey, this is fun or is it, hey, I feel part of a community, right? Or hey, I'm emulating some sort of trend online that I'm excited about. And I think we saw that with um was it Brawl Stars? I think I think that that got that right. Like it it am I right? the the the the uh one of one of the Supercell games. Part of the the revival came, as I understand it, almost to the surprise of some of the Supercell uh team who are saying, "Wait, this game's like really picking up again after a period." And you know, it was because it got this very very loyal following um through some social

media influencers, right? And then that encouraged them to put more money into the or more thought into the to honing the live ops, right, around um uh uh that experience. And I think you know that that you know now in the design of products and I know I know a startup in in Barcelona uh it's just raised uh you know a really decent series A you know seven figure series A uh from from well-known investors and you know their thesis is around you know like building in that sort of um should we call it uh like social uh social media friendly dynamics uh to go into exact dynamics because It's a bit of secret source there, but it's around sort of thinking like how could this be friendly for a streamer to promote our game because it's actually promoting their own brand, right? That's, you know, that's that's sort of part of it. And again, we've seen, you know, we've seen one client who who told us this for I think for $50, I think it was $50, they they gave a an influencer to like play around with

their app and it got something like 7.5 million views, right? Um uh so so so I know we're sort of moving so broader but we're seeing that sort of again this sort of this change of consumption this change of of how people are acquiring and and therefore you know whether it's consumers thinking okay well if I g I bring game elements in it to make it more friendly or make it more like something you want to share online and therefore like you're more like to consume yourself and then share and network that effect. Um, I think I think we'll see more of that uh just because it's it's such a a painful experience going out and quiring users and costly uh through through some more traditional methods that you would have done 10 years ago, right? It was just it was just a different world. Yeah. Yeah. I can I can I can see that. I can see that. It's uh it's just hard. It's it's very hard when you when you essentially take away the growth driver of what literally made the market what it is which is performance marketing and say hey let's go back to you know picks and

shovels instead of computers and algorithm. It's uh it's bound to you know the growth stops. That's that's what's what what we're seeing is is happening especially on the on the game side. And we're seeing naturally games resorting to brand marketing, using IPs, using celebrities, uh using more streamers. To your point though, like we are seeing growth on the app side, right? So so um so again, I think it's it's sort of um it's sort of the the tactics are going to flow across, right? and and and again you know whether if if games get good at this and again a little it'll be interesting to see in two years time um whether actually let's say games can crack some of this sort of guorilla marketing you know uh or or the sort of the you making games that are more I'm going to keep making up words virality friendly uh that's a new curve you know whe whether they can master that whether again there might be a a spurge of of companies in two years time saying like oh we need someone from like Dream games like I want the person from oh probably

won't be true but you know it be from X company who hasn't even it it's but you know it'll be the company from X company that doesn't even exist right now but in two years time has set the bar for for how how they got you know massive traction you know we s we saw something like Among Us right that that game really exploded through through co yeah but co but and online streaming right it was I think you know they they got this wave of it was fun and you'll want to be a part of it um I think it's a fun game. Is it like, you know, a thousand times more fun than any other game out there? Probably, you know, rel to success, but it it managed to hit that exact bar of just and again, I think Hell Divers perhaps, too. And, you know, they hit these sort of these sort of community aspects where you're, you know, you're really wanting to be a part of that. And and I think that that, you know, again, I think we're seeing that with um it's already in built with some like if you're on a social network, it's already in built, right? You're on there to be on your friends, but you know, how do you how do you like grow that or how do you gain an edge? I think I think games is an interesting way of of showing that. Yeah. I I the biggest difference

between games and apps is that apps actually have a value proposition that they deliver. And yes, they tend to be missing all the engagement mechanics that come in that that supercharge what you're doing, but they do have something that they are offering. And because you're using this app, whether it's a meditation app, whether it's a productivity app, whether it's a streaming app, you are downloading it to get certain type of value. And I was kind of thinking about like because apps have a value and games arguably have a negative value. You could say that. I mean that you're not you're not like you are I think it's a very it's a very sort of Calvinistic Protestant type approach. Entertainment has no has a negative value. If you're if you're sat there playing a game, you're you're somehow like you know negatively occurring value. I I don't mean it in like like like there's there's I think my parents

generation would have agreed. They would have said, "Yeah, you're you're wasting your life. You're like you know I I I don't know. I I was thinking actually about this today and I was thinking about like I of course I do play games and I understand the value proposition because they kind of allow you to disconnect but they are more of a distraction than an active relaxation. Like let's say if I go for a walk in the woods that are behind me that is an active relaxation I'm getting something out of it. If I take a break and for the same amount of time play a game, I don't feel as good as if I would have taken that walk with or without my lazy dog. And so what or you go on a beach or do you do some something else like those are sort of a active like how would I say positive relaxation and then there's sort of a distractions. I would say streaming is kind of in the same, you know, same level. Like if you watch us Love Island or Love is Blind or any of

the shows that I watch, you know, for yellow. How do you find time in your day to do anything else? Mishk between your walks and your Love Island. Yeah, actually I've never watched Love Island, but my wife does. Yeah, I've tried many times to get into it. I haven't. Yeah, but but I'm kind of I'm kind of going through the the point of like an app has to deliver some sort of a utility and and I'm just curious of like of of the uh of the mindset of or even the the sort of a how would I say um cultural differences between app companies and game companies is like what cuz you've placed people from game companies to app companies and like what are the sort of um dos and don'ts when it comes there like cuz you don't want to come in I I have this for my own experience, you don't want to come in and be too gamesy because what we've 100% been like like when you when you work with an app company or within an app company like I've I've done and and our team has done in fractional roles, they don't have the same type of a library as

we do in our heads like we've been playing for 20 oh god soon 30 years uh if not already over 30 years of games ex since Shakira since since bubble shooters, bubble islands, all amiggas and you name And we have this library in our head and we sort of speak the same language. Oh, Ballers Gate one, Diablo 1, you remember when they did this Command and Conquer, this and that. So, but when you come to an or you name the uh even the latest games, but when you come to an app company, there isn't that sort of a shared memory of all these games. Everything is kind of way more professional like we're talking about product management, we're talking about marketing, we're talking about that's actually at least my experience. It's it's about that business and that utility and that craft versus shared memories of entertainment um you know or yeah and experience. I think I think it's an excellent point, Mishkar, and I I think the cultural difference is is really big, actually. And I think, you know, as much as we're talking about the opportunity here, I I really want to make it very clear, there's a lot of

missteps and poor implementation and poor execution on trying to bring games or games ideas into consumer apps, right? And I think um you know I don't like to sort of pick out companies but there's a very large uh uh dating company which I think brought in a lot of executives from from Zinga and uh other places and match group I can say it feels like we're playing a game of alias uh you know and and you know I think I think again and it's not to criticize anyone there. I think you know I think there was a hope there that that you know that this would be a big future for games and dating right like this would be a big driver for Tinder. Uh, and you know, I think they brought in a lot of good talent there. They looked it really deeply and you you you never know where the the jury lands on that. Again, it might be next year it suddenly drakes through, right? And you, you know, you're left saying, "Well, actually, it did, you know, it was the right strategy." But, but I think there was a there was a sort of big hope a couple of years ago again when we're talking about this sort of gamification like let's just do that, right? Like, and again,

that's why the phrase has fallen out of favor. Um, because it has it's not easy, right? It's just not easy. And and I think actually there's there's a really sort of deep point here I think Mishkra about because you're saying like you know an app has to have utility but at the same time right like what is rewarded is not utility right like nobody says like wow the best language learning app is measured in how much people learn from it right no like or the best like you know unfortunately we live in a world if I wrong you know we deal in with how much revenue do you create right how much do people spend on the app right like how much time are they in the app, right? That's that's that's more equated with success. So, I think it goes back to your point of and and I think it's same true of of games. There are games you play which are very good at keeping you there like a almost like an addict, right? Like just chasing that fix and you come away and think why did I spend my last hour doing that, right? There's there social media apps has the same effect. There's there's a you know, but that can happen with other apps too, right? You might have gone on there for a purpose and but you might

being being kept there with clever mechanics that are not really about that core utility but can from the outside look like a success. So I think I think um you know that that sort of observation could be true of of other apps as much as it is of of of games but it's it's more clearly defined right because you're like well you could you could track it back to that original purpose of the app as a user at least um uh you could. So, um, but no, to to your point about culture, it's really difficult. And I think a lot of people go wrong, right? A lot of people, if you love making games, I probably wouldn't recommend you go to a consumer app who's telling you that they want to become more gamified, right? Because I would I would I'd be kind of suspicious of that because I'd sort of say if you really love making games again unless unless you feel full now you know there's practical reasons but you know you're not going to get that like what you're very unlikely to get that in a in a in a in a non a non-gaming app. I think I think it's the people who are saying look actually I really want to go to

that because actually I've got some useful skill set from games but actually I I'm not hooked on this right I could do something very easily and those people are much more like to succeed because I think I think from the other side right from the from the consumer app side they don't understand the bridge they don't understand the difference of creativity of as you as you talked about like that shared knowledge of games right where you're all sort of thinking in the same way about like oh was really cool you know you like you got that anthology of of from Command and Conquer on to like you know Warcraft 3 to Starcraft 2 like you're able to like map out in your head like the evolution of the RTS or whatever it is right um whereas you know and there's there's a sort of way of thinking about that and a way of doing product which is very different so you know we have seen examples of it being successful you know I think of a great example of a lang it's not a language show it's it's a it's an educational app uh backed by Andre Horovitz raised tens of millions um you know they're building in unity Right? This is quite serious stuff. This is about training nurses.

This is about training scientists, doctors, right? It's really like, you know, social utility type stuff. It's it's actually more so B2B TOC as a model. Uh but they're building in Unity. They want to make it engaging for the user. There's no monetization in the app. Engaging, not gamified, engaging. Exactly. And they want to create a narrative like because actually again when you sort of realize you people like feeling parts of narratives. Again, it's another thing that games do, right? Helps you create some sort of sense in the world. And we could go down a really deep rabbit hole there of, you know, whether you're watching Love Island or whether you're learning Greek or like, you know, whatever you like, you like what's your purpose in life, right? Is is actually one like more valuable than the other. But but um you know, this this I think has social utility and and a clear utility to to the world. But they're building in in in um unity and they're using a bit more of a narrative storytelling that that lifts it up from reading a textbook, right? Rather than reading a textbook about okay, like if you're with a patient and they say XY Z, you should say, you know, it's kind of quite dry. Again, some people love that learning. Some people were really turned off by it. Um, whereas now you're in a 3D environment, you know, not not VR,

but it's, you know, it's it's on on your on your PC. Um, and you've got a you've got a a patient in front of you. They're talking to you. They've got voice. You can go to the other side of the room. You can check their notes. You know, it's a little bit more interactive and feels more like the real real world. Um, I think we we're seeing that in military applications. I'm not an expert on that at all, but you know, sort of people sort of how do you deal with these situ right? Like a combat medic or something like that rather than having to deal with that situation for the first time live, right? Like you could you could use um training and obviously they do real real life training as well, but um you know, so there's there lots of applications there and that we put a CTO in there for them. Um they ended up being a CTPO, chief technology and product officer. Uh but their background was in games. Um they they really knew how to use Unity. They knew how to use Unreal as well. they could give them a perspective on that whether that's a better engine, a different engine, you know, whatever. Um, but they understood the product goals, but then they'd actually moved out to to another a non-game app for a little period. So, they they were quite an easy fit in because they'd seen both sides of the coin um already. So, that would be a good example, but I said there there

there are lots of bad examples, but it just it just didn't work out. So I think I think I'd have a lot of sort of caveat emperor a lot of sort of like warning if you're looking at making that that move really think like how much you're going to miss the games making because I I see people who go across and they say I miss games making or so so this is an interesting topic um games industry is not doing particularly well that's not a surprise apps industry is doing well and they are hiring people from the games industry and yet a games industry professional feels feels like it's uh it's the end of the world if they have to go to work at an app company even though they use apps all the time. I I find this really confusing. Well, I think some people are really actively looking for it. I mean, again, I don't know if you've seen this, but I I I probably see people are a little bit more jaded uh about about mobile gaming. It's shocking to hear, right? That the uh certainly it's just become tougher. You know, again, I think there's been a lot of M&A in in the

market as well. There's been a lot of churn which also brings in you political issues, cultural issues you know so I think if you look at you last couple of years we've had you know the acquisition of Zinger Zinger made a bunch of acquisitions before then you know like take 2 had made acquisitions on both sides Activision has been acquired has been acquired the king itself was an you know was was an acquisition you know um uh so 10 cent is is I understand it I don't know what we're hearing but but sometimes becoming more involved in companies that they were previously less involved in um uh so so that's bringing in about time. Well, there we go. That's that's a that's a hot take uh I should do a hot take spicy episode on that. But you again we're seeing again we're seeing again at time of recording because we're living a very fluxy world. But at time of recording we're seeing tensions between obviously China and Russia. So again some of these Chinese China and Russia China US Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. If at time of recording that's true, then the world has changed. But yeah, we

don't know when this ships it might be. Everything changes. We were in World War II when we uh you know, we're in the bunker doing the next one. Choose your faction. Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. I think that was trailed in like Command and Conquer four or whatever. Three. I think that was like the next we're going to be living it. Um so, um uh yes. So, so you know, we're see we're seeing those dynamics behind the play. So, that's created a lot of churn behind the scenes, right? And obviously a lot of money got invested at the peak right so again that that creates tension you know whether you're a VC you I think the VCs are feeling the pressure right I know I don't know how much sympathy they get on deconstructure fund uh consistently I know you have some them on and you got a lot of love for them sometimes but there's there's no sympathy for VCs no special we like them they don't deserve any sympathy okay but they are they don't need any they don't need actually they don't need it they do deserve it but they don't need it um yeah so so you know but they're under pressure right for raising new funds again if If you invent invested in a vintage of like 2020 to 2021, right, like you you

probably write off. Exactly. It's very difficult and and it's sad because I think you know we're seeing some some I mean it's you still see games you think well actually you've got a good team and if the expectations are lower and you haven't raised at such a crazy valuation maybe you've got something here that could go forward but it's just never going to meet you know you're sort of stymied by timing. I I I don't think it's about the expectations. It's just it's more of okay so you've raised $10 million and you've spent it on development and now you need additional 20 to basically go through your soft launch and maybe 50 uh to to actually launch the game and then another one and and so forth. It's like it doesn't make any sense because you're not going to return it and uh VCs are in the business of returnal. Uh with the multiples being what they are with games like Plarang, you know, multiples between 1 to 2x revenue, maybe 4x eida at max, those are not great multiples nowadays. They're they're fraction of what they were before. And because of that, it doesn't

make any sense to invest into games because you're not going to return your money. That's why VCs are pushing out and that's why private equity is coming in because private equity's model is essentially just making things much more efficient. So they're buying stuff because it's cheaper now and just squeezing the lemon. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's off topic but we are again but I think it is on topic of of of actually sort of the crossover of of sectors right because again we saw a lot of VCs come in in that 2010 to 2020 period right tourist especially and bigger funds um and now we're seeing the private equity guys coming in right as as in the second wave of saying um and what they seem to really like are these games some of these games you just never heard of they've been quite quiet I know a couple of games that are being bought and I have to admit I hadn't heard of either of the games but they're doing you good revenue like 20 30 million like really solid uh great game got loyal and you know they're not the most uh you know easy $30 million in a year in in

revenue have been pushing it out for the for the past you know 10 years and those cash cows are acquired by private equity and I know that because we advise on those acquisitions and they are acquired by that value and they are looking at like can we increase this revenue it's not needed for this business case to work, but can you increase the revenue of this 10-year-old game? That's typically one of the consulting projects we engage with and and I appreciate that there's sometimes and to your listener base, I think there can be a real suspicion of capital, right? Like cover right and of of uh sometimes I I sort of see it. But I think and I think priv private equity is particularly poorly understood uh in in the games market because it just hasn't been there for very long. And and I think that you as you said I think that what they really like is defendable niches like predictability of revenue, defendable niches, like something they feel is going to be cash generative. They feel like again they can do some financial wizardry. So I I think it's actually a really good thing for the ecosystem because it brings in a different discipline. Um you know uh whether it'll be good for individuals within that system, we we'll see. Um uh uh

interesting take. I've rarely seen that somebody would say that private equity entering a sector is a good sign. I think No, I think it is. Well, I I'll defend it because I I think they have a very different perspective and clarity on on financial discipline and on on discipline of of of of a company. So again it it pro probably not at the like more I think when they were trying to do what the VCs were trying to do. So um again like Blackstone I won't I won't name names but they invested in a company and they invested at the height and it was a big acquisition for them. Um and I think then you know the market hit turbulence and it it was it was like it was a it was a more volatile play than probably private equity would usually go for and it and it didn't sort of work out. So that that was like an experiment right as we can we can we can see there. But I said these latter ones and again like with with you know a very high perform Jaget got acquired by as a secondary acquisition so it was uh EQT

recently bought keywords they said that's on the bigger end but on these like smaller ones where it's a you know we're going to check is another one like it's very very much more predictable they're going to bring in you know whether it's CFO talent or you know or CF ideas like that will be very different from from the type of way of looking at businesses and and have a real maturity about it that that I think can help can help games companies and again people will follow what's successful. So if they do it and they're successful then that can you know and it's new capital into the market either way. So I think you know one one should be particularly as you said like games has not has not been a you know a market's been attracting huge amounts of new capital in the last couple of years from external sources. But I think we should I think we should look at that as part of an ecosystem, right? And in the same way that like people like um I don't know the people shorting stocks, right? We can easily say like oh these are bad people. They're like disrupting the market. But you sometimes Yeah, exactly. But see short, you know, people can be very it can be so popular sometimes to like hate these guys on or

see them as parasitic. But I think actually get that they they do exist like that. But also sometimes they're fulfilling this like market function of like well what hap what would happen to these companies otherwise, right? like what's like the public markets is is is a terrible situation, right? like you don't want to IPO. um you some of these companies just don't have an exit strategy again maybe being acquired by you know m Microsoft you're too small for Microsoft so it's like a really what do you do with these companies and actually maybe it's a it's a new lease of life it's a reinvigoration it's new capital um as I said and it's bringing in discipline and thinking that I think sometimes the games industry could could benefit from because it's been you know probably very extreme on the creative high-end high quality high risk takingaking we probably don't need more of that we've got lots of that which is good and this can bring a different sort of set of uh uh thinking. So there you go. That that'll be the outtake. So if Jar's defends private equity, you can all right be on that later on. There's nothing to it. It just says that the market is mature because private equity makes what you would traditionally call

a good investment. It invests in companies that are good companies, meaning that they actually generate revenue and have customers through a long period of time. They could be stable. Usually they're quite stable. Usually there are not really growing ones that private equity invests into and then once private equity invests it makes them either more efficient. not like rarely they make them grow that much uh but they just make them much more profitable efficient you know in case of scopi of course their private equity is essentially savvy and savvy is essentially Saudi Arabia and that's a little bit of a different private equity play but typical private equities are as you explained companies that acquire these 30 million a year 10 plus year old titles that we kind of knew but we didn't know that they're that profitable and they just operate them milk them and they provide an exit to the founders and they are coming in because the VCs are out because VCs invest into the future into the mega growth of that company and the mega growths are just not coming

anymore in gaming. So that's why we got private equity. Yeah. And and again like you know it's also sometimes just the again they can just do some very smart things already with when you've already got capital coming through the system. They're very good at being very clever about that to to really increase. Oh, very good. Very very good. I would say they're very good at driving big companies underground as well by settling them with depth and taking a lot of money from the side. So, it depends. I'm not calling out all private equities, but yes, these are also known as corporate raiders in some context. And there's a reason for it because they have taken down multiple very, very good profitable companies by settling them with insane depth. Yeah, it can it can happen just to be clear. Yeah, there's again there there's there's um I bet we could go into it, but I suppose there's uh that would never happen that a uh that a corporate a listed corporate would ever acquire a company and then destroy it, right? We would never see you. Yeah, there's there's different

mismanagement that's gone wrong with a listed company. So, no, there are you know there are definitely bad bad actors, but I think I think there's some interesting ones as well. um go into a segue about proactive another time. So just just kind of to to kind of cap this off. I know we're talking about multiple different things about the market and this is more of like a philosophical discussion, but I wanted to kind of uh take this home with a little bit of a takeaways of how how should games professionals who are open about expanding their career outside games taking what they've learned and taking it into the broader app ecosystem? like what are some practical advice you could give them whether when they are interacting with head hunters whether how they're presenting themselves on LinkedIn uh whether it is how they are uh applying to these app companies uh can you perhaps tell success cases cuz you mentioned cases that were not success cases like you

know match group all the kudos like I know the people who went there I actually talked to them uh I don't I wouldn't put it on them that much no that cuz Like when I I had a conversation with folks who worked at match group and asked like what happened to the whole dating sector because the the dating sector went down. It's not just that the match group went down. So that's a whole different conversation of people behavior economic impact on dating etc etc. Uh but what are the sort of success cases where people have gone to app companies and have uh been successful in those positions? Yeah, as mentioned the the um you examples that the um uh the uh Labster company I mentioned earlier the sort of B2B TOC education uh type technologies um we've seen it you know in um in the healthcare where I was talking about the um you the opthromologist you know sort of um uh experience we've had it in fitness companies we've seen it in so we've seen it in a range in the media company I mentioned earlier as well that's the short format audio so so there are good

good success uh cases there um I think you know your questions about sort of advice to people. So I think one is again if if if you're active about it um I most people are not particularly active right most people are sort of like pling along. So I suppose um I suppose I I'd encourage I'd encourage people who are sort of maybe having a sense of dissatisfaction to get more proactive right if this is something you want to look at then you know start by being a bit more proactive um you know most people we're talking to are not actively looking right and we're sort of saying to them suggesting new ideas so um which is no problem if you're not but I suppose you do does require some proactivity for a start I think you know candidly if you want to make that move make your LinkedIn profile look more more readable again some people have put very little information on there. I mean, I always say to people, it's helpful to know which games you worked on, right? Because certain games, you know, let's take Jam City as example, right? Like they've got quite a wide portfolio of games in their in their mix, right? And if you've come from that Tiny Co background, you've worked on Harry Potter, Hogwarts Mystery, right?

Like that's a very narrative driven game that's selling through stories. It's a very different game from say if you're working on Cookie Chat, right? So, match three type, you know, it's a different different type of game. Um so so so so people outside of games might be looking for one area or they might be looking for the other. They might be like hey we really invested in narrative people have been in narratives because that's a big part of like the the the story we're trying to tell with this app right or like we're trying to create some sort of background to it or like it's very content driven so that's more interesting or actually hey we're actually more focused on like you know kind of the best-in-class monetization background so like maybe the other you know match 3 is a bit more it's a bit more sort of analytically driven. you know, thinking about those sort of features of just clearly highlighting what you've worked on, what your role is, you know, some of the the and then, you know, I suppose this the the more the skill behind what you did, right? So, it's not just, hey, I did I drove revenue or whatever or hey, I I brought in this feature, you know, it's like new feature design brought in 10 features and then and then the detail on what those features were, right? because the the more generic skill is like hey I can organize people or I can lead teams or I

can um you know perform analytics on this or I can create technology or I can market whatever it is right and then give the specifics so I' I'd sort of highlight the skill and differentiate that from the example of the skill um if you're trying to you know think about sprucing up your LinkedIn to make it a little bit more user friendly because otherwise it just again don't underestimate or don't overestimate how much people outside of games know about games because because often they know very very little like like really it is like you know again if you're in the scene all the time you're like well of course you know this but you know again acquisitions as well sometimes like oh you're at glue and then you're at EA some people like oh it looks like you did two years at glue and then like long yeah like they might not realize like or or was um crowdstar before that I think you know they might not realize that's all the same company right and they might think oh you've had short tenures or something like that so you know you just you just got to spell it out to people a little bit of like this was an acquisition again this is kind of basic but again I think most people don't do this because they're not looking for a job which is fine and they don't want to

get harassed by people like me on LinkedIn which again I I fully understand um but but equally I think um if you are thinking that way like the the level of just like very simple um additional bits of information you could just give out there will will probably boost the the um you know the radar that you're on. I think the other thing is being proactive in talking to head hunters because I said it's not it's not a nice little bucket I can just go and say like well just check this forum every week right and you'll see all the opportunities because it could be in something it could be in a new thing it could be in a thing that didn't exist six months ago right it's a new hybrid of I don't know like fitness and mental health and shopping right like and it's this new hybrid thing that they're and they're like oh actually this games are really interesting and you know so I it's hard so I think talking to people actively I think you know being aware of the funds as well that are crossing over. So, you know, Andre Horovitz is is an interesting one because it's got a lot in games. It's actually got a lot of non-game as well. So, you got like and they're not the same teams that are running those things. So, sort of being aware of, you know, what the

opportunities are. Some of these companies are very openly these venture capital funds are very open about posting a lot of their um their their their opportunities. Um you know, there's certain recruiters they have sometimes as well internally who are always putting out lists of like here's 30 companies. Yes, I'm sure I'm sure you see them a lot anyway, but sort of, you know, they're quite vocal, but again, so sometimes it's not hidden information, but just sort of checking in there. I think I think we're increasingly seeing roles being advertised by companies more and more. Um, I think partly because it's a soft market, so because it's, you know, it's easier to go get talent, I think people are finding, hey, we could put an ad out and get a lot of good good candidates through that. Whereas in a tough market, you you tend to get the less good candidates, right? or the less relevant candidates you get um because the best candidates are are very happy they're well looked after they're not looking or like they're just going through channels themselves so you know uh that they know so I think you know we are seeing just more information publicly out there so checking I mean you know on on on websites if you're interested in a

particular company keep checking their website keep having a look uh because it's not all secret source but some of the secret source will be again through talking to people like ourselves and other head hunters in the space to to keep a breast of the like random company you've never heard of that crew a thousand% last year and is like, you know, recreated your whole industry and you're like I, you know, wow, like they're coming out of Armenia or something like that. You're just like, wow, I just didn't have these guys on my radar at all and actually it's super interesting and super relevant to to to what I'm doing today. Yeah. And do and just to take it home, do you think this continues like this trend of gaming professionals finding jobs in the broader gaming ecosystem or is this uh a phase that you expect to end or what's what's your take? It's a good question. I I think what I would say is I think we're going to continue to see a hybridization and a crossover of sectors. Um so again I you know go back to sort of like I think you go back 10 20 years ago you'd be like well why do I

want to do you wouldn't want to do different things you'd mentally categorize I know renewing your car insurance as a completely different sort of experience from like going out and having fun with your friends right like but nowadays through through mobile particularly right we're doing the we're doing it on the same device now so it's sort of brought together it's no longer one would be done in person over here and like the physically what you're doing in different spaces is just very different right it's now more aligned And I think generationally we're going to see that again just this increased crossover where we see themes from our childhood. I what do we see like millennials buying now? Nostalgia, right? Like yes, don't come out with Elder Scrolls 6, come out with Oblivion Remastered and like I worry that that game will be more successful than you know uh probably in Starfield, right? like you know so um you know so so there's like this huge nostalgia play like we're seeing right and the same for films and you know there and and so you know like this generation are they going to want the nostalgia right are they going to want like things that feel like they experienced in their in in in their

you know their formative years so I think we will see that continued crossover the speed of that crossover I don't know um you know I I I don't know the sort of prediction whether that's like 10 years away that it's like super more hybrid or 15 years away or or two years way and I think we live in that world where it's it's incredibly hard to predict the rate of change. I don't know if that's always been the case like every generation feels that but I think particularly with the rise of AI with just a more inconed world you know like the ability for trends to to sweep the world very quickly right an idea can go from a Tik Tocker in San Francisco to China or like a Japan like very very quickly right become a trend or subtrend and you know in a in a way that just wasn't possible 30 40 years ago it just couldn't information couldn't move that fast so um so I think I think we we'll see a continued trend there you how it will uh evolve. I don't know-c because because I'd say like two three years ago I think we had a certain view of of direction of travel and it it didn't maybe work out right the thesis

didn't maybe hold out in the same way so maybe the time was a little bit early maybe the the mechanism was a little bit wrong I don't know uh maybe people are just you know to your point maybe a generation we're going to see like a rejection from like time spent in apps as like a goal right where we're all sat there going like I just wasted half my a doom scrolling or whatever, right? Like why didn't I go for a walk? And maybe generationally we'll see this like push trying to get away from that and and the rise will be again I'm theorizing here. Maybe it'll go to like the apps I love being on are apps I spent 10 minutes on and then like push me out to the world, right? And then I come back I check in four times with it for 10 minutes slots versus I check in for one 40 minute slot, one hour or so. I don't know. Um so I wouldn't say I I I I and I think this is true of the whole games industry. I think the whole games industry is slightly grasping for that like what's the next big wave right and I think we saw NFTTS and and and web 3 as as but we go back four or five years ago

that was like you know that was like here's going to be the next wave right we've had mobile this is going to be the next wave we had metaverse right like as as another big sort of hope we had VR none of them have delivered um on the on the on the growth engine right that we're talking about this the growth engine has has faltered um you know all So the you know the high growth engine. So I I I you know my sense on the market and what I consistently see is the capital and the people are still not quite sure what that next like what's the like the mobile like the the iPhone like event right that suddenly like propels us to a new and I don't think people know but isn't I I don't I don't feel confident uh uh predicting that. Um but I think we will we'll see we'll see the phrase like the only only constant is change or something like that and I I think that will be that will be continued to be going forward. I'd encourage people to say stay dynamic in a changing world and you know stay thoughtful and and also you know probably I see this a lot of

people just like probably stay true to doing something you're you're you're really sustainably enjoying which which might sound really kind of a little bit of bland advice but I I think we did see people sort of chase a little bit of that hype a little bit of that excitement a little bit of the money or like oh we're going to get acquired you know whatever it was and that let's raise you know that sort of that excitement and then it's it's sort of coming back around to being so like well I'm not I'm not super enjoying doing this, right? Like or you know like it sounded good at the time but you know you know it wasn't the right capital structure right like you know whatever right like you know private equity is a good example I wouldn't say go join a private equity company unless you know what you're getting yourself into right like you have to understand the way they work and what they want to return and how they want to operate right and if you don't understand that you're going to come acropper if you go into that understanding that I mean like I'm totally cool with that let's just go let's absolutely you know sales company in four years time five years time and make away like bandits and there are no sacred cows and you know etc. Whatever it is, right? Like if you're hyped by that, you can go and enjoy if you go there whether it's Middle Eastern money

or whatever it goes there for the capital and the like the promise of the paycheck or Netflix, right? If you go there for what you know, whatever drivers that can convince you, I think we're probably seeing a uh you know, just market um reaction. A lot of those people are are don't don't feel like they're happy with the trade-off, right? And then they're looking and they don't last long. So I don't know if that's very banal advice but uh I think that's certainly something I've seen a lot of you know executives you know at many different levels sort of making that that that sort of pact a little bit and then and then sort of regretting it a little bit because um you it wasn't wasn't sort of sustainable or authentic to what they wanted to do. H interesting. And do you feel that there's a lot of that with people coming from gaming going into the app broader app ecosystem? If you spent a long time in gaming, it might be quite different. It again depends where you worked in gaming. If you worked in gaming in San Francisco, you worked at Zingga or or I don't know, Niantic or some I don't know if there are any game companies or any

companies left in San Francisco, but like back in the days at least, they all felt Jam City is still there. Actually, they've got people there. No, Jam City is in LA, right? They've got people in San Francisco as well. Probably empty. Uh but uh but no offense to Jam City, just the city, the the San Francisco. But um but like if you work in a game company outside of those tech cities, the game companies are very game companies. The people are very gamey. Uh they wear, you know, everything that a gamer would wear. And then you come in at a tech company, it's a very different vibe. So have you seen this where people come from Yeah. quintessential gaming companies go into a tech company and feel like a fish out of water. I would say we probably don't see that as much because I I do think those people are a little bit more aware of that that that gap, right? Like um I spoke to to one again one person who came out of like they came out of Riot, right? And I

think Riot had a good good reput like had a reputation for being like super like gamy, right? you got to you got to play League of Legends and like shirt your stuff to be like even and then they moved away from that cuz they realized that was inhibiting getting getting talent to to a degree and this person had come out and been like yeah like I came out of it cuz like it wasn't game enough and they just want to like hype it up even more. They're like they lost that core. So, so it's interesting like what what people take away from from different things. But, um, so my point of all that is I think those people who are really like that and love that environment, I think they probably they they're probably actually more tuned into this idea of what kind of company they want to be a part of for right or wrong. And I think there running out these kind of companies that exist. Um, uh, so so uh, so no, I don't think we do too much. I think it can be more actually like people who were sort of like who perhaps felt that perhaps out of mobile because I think mobile engendered less of that sort of um like gamers gamers type feel to my than PC consoles. So if I think of like Blizzard or or uh Riots, right?

Like those are to me the epitome of like we're gamers like you know the old school Blizzard, right? like it was like you know this is a um you know I think if you looked at King I don't think culturally the people at King you know were like super like we're gamers gamers right like I think they said real money gambling then they sort of pivoted around a bit you know and they came across Candy Crush and you know and it was it was a great success but I I think again they were very data focused they were always very pragmatic they were you know focused about a lot of fun and entertainment but I don't think they had this sort of culture of like well you know like you got like how much how much you you know how much are you playing like COD on the weekend right like it was I I don't get that sense right that's that's the people so so so some of these people I think are are sort of more perhaps feel like the culture is more more um transitionable but I think that's where you get underestimated actually that it's not culture but it's sort of um it's culture but it's sort of ways of

doing things and and sometimes it's just creative industry right like you're inherently in a creative industry so these I think sometimes lines take time, right? Like they take iteration, they take imagination. Um I again, you know, I I wonder if you're making like a fintech app or something like that, right? Like it's it it could be like maybe the very best ones do have imagination, but maybe that's not what the people are geared around coming in, right? And and I think again I think about this a lot. We talking about sort of it's whether whenever you look at people coming from one industry, particularly if it's regulated, right? If it's particularly if it's regulated, the people who have been successful in that industry for a long time have a very different way of thinking whether that's like investors from oil and gas right and they're using oil and gas money to go buy games companies or from other techs right like Tencent was a mining company I think originally and then moved out but uh they did it very successfully but um if you're coming from another industry you do have a way of just thinking about like the process and the and the outcome that is that I think is very different from games which is one of the reasons why they're looking for games talent because they do things different and

uniquely but it's underestimating quite what that difference is. So I'd sort of advise people to really tease that out, you know, very carefully in the interview process is not move too quickly, you know, like I I this is generic interview advice I'd give everyone. But I think you know that the sort of you know uh and haste repent at leisure I think is very true and I think you know really feeling it out spending time in person if you can you know if it's a remote setup really sort of thinking deeply about how does that work and and getting that buy in very clearly to saying like this is this is how we're going to operate. Are you cool with that? you know, like does this is how I want to go forward. Does that work in this industry? Like really teasing out the differences ahead of time, I think is is, you know, it's good advice for any job. Uh, obviously, but I think particularly when you're looking that I don't don't assume that the client or so, the um the hirer is aware of all the differences because it could be you're sort of assuming like, well, they know it's different, right? And they're okay with that, so I'm sure it'll be fine, right? So they they might you might underestimate their or overestimate their knowledge of like how different it is in a in a creative live ops

environment in a mobile game versus you know whatever they're doing um in their industry. Yeah, I think that's a good advice on my side. You know, having worked with with app companies, I feel I I've enjoyed truly working with app companies. I would say it's a it's a different level of professionalism. It removes a lot of the opinionated layer that we tend to have in games because of our extensive backgrounds of what we feel works and feel doesn't work and how we stand for the players based on our gut feeling. It's much more professional, if you will. um you know it lacks that passion a little bit but the passion tends to come if the people are really into the utility that that app or that service provides. So that comes through to through that aspect but I would say in the end it's it's um it's like when games professionals move and expand

their career to other sectors take the key learnings what you've had um on my side it's been especially the product aspect and when we talk about product and the engagement elements that that we can bring and that you know we would work on with with their product th those really resonate because in the end it's about improving the metrics and and that's the uh the uh the universe iversal language of business growth. So, so it it tends to work at least on the product side and it has also worked on the marketing side. But again, I don't know if game designers are probably not the type of people that most game most uh companies app companies are are perhaps looking for. It's more on the product and marketing side and tech. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, on that note, connect with Gerard Mile, Mission One on LinkedIn, link below in the description. and Gerard, thanks again for a philosophical conversation about apps, games, and the world. Always, always a pleasure, Meshka. Thanks for

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