Sam Lake: "I had to take six months off after Alan Wake 2"

There is that kind of a slight feeling like like are are you trying to tell me something? Is it am I done? Have I peed? Should are are you telling me that? Okay, run along. Now looking back, I I wouldn't change a thing. Like I'm I'm really proud of what we achieved, but I I was at the point where I just had to do a sapatical like I went away uh at the end of the project for half a [Music] year. Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show, your guide to the goings on in the global video game industry. We have mostly featured business leaders on this show so far, but today we have a real creative pioneer and one of the most distinct voices making big scale video games today. He is known for such seminal works as Max Payne, Alan Wake Control and 2023's award-winning critically acclaimed Alan Wake 2. He has exceptional taste and suits and loves a coffee. It's the creative director over at Remedy, Sam Lake. Hello, Sam. Welcome

to the show. Hello, Chris. Thank you. Uh, pleasure to be here. And I do have my coffee. to get to get that in. You know what you told me? You told me when we I saw you at GDC um it was this is what this is interview sort of related to and you were telling me that was it the Alan Wake one remastered campaign that whole coffee thing came about. Yes. Yeah. My uh fancy coffee Tik Tok Alan Wake remaster didn't have a huge marketing campaign and I wanted to do my part. So, so I did couple of coffee videos, uh, finding our odia diner, Alan Wake coffee thermoses in the forest and in a lake and did these kinds of videos and and then forgot all about the whole Tik Tok and and then when we were gearing up for Alake 2 campaign, I tried to think of something that would be so

easy like it wouldn't be stressful to kind of like uh create more videos and traveling all around the world promoting the game. I just started thinking that well taking a sip of coffee wherever I am in the world and doing a video and putting some nice music in the background and it's been going on for several years now and and with a lot of amazing guest stars uh joining in. Does it not get tiring when fans say, "Can I do a video? Can I do uh do you have you had to set rules? I mean a a lot a lot of the fans have been doing their own coffee videos and and linking them all over social media which I really appreciate the effort. Well, I'm not here to talk about coffee. I'm here because uh congratulations on your uh GDC lifetime achievement award. Um although you picked up a you're getting a few of these awards now. You're doing a keynote at Develop Brighton. This isn't a farewell tour for Sam Lake, is

it? I hope. Yeah. I mean, all of this is a huge honor, especially coming after Alan Wake 2 that that was like all of these games making them hard work and in many ways because of the circumstances around for the longest time not being able to get to Alan Wake 2. It it felt like a very personal project and I wanted to try to push the creative side as far as I could and and remedy turning 30 years and and me being at Remedy uh towards the end of this year I I I have been working at remedy for 30 years. So so it's it's wonderful but yes there is that kind of a slight feeling like like are are you trying to tell me something? Is it am I done? Have I peaked? Should are are you telling me that okay run

along now? Uh but no like like honestly still lot of passion and and uh a lot of ideas. I I don't think like like doing this kind of work kind of training your mind to to react on obstacles coming up with creative ideas on how to go forward. Ideas like they won't stop coming. They like even even you know taking a break and going on holiday. I've learned to always carry a notebook with me because that's when the ideas start coming the new ideas. Yeah. You need to give yourself that space for those things as well because Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about the Alan Wake because last time last time we sp Okay, we've we've spoke to each other a few times. We've run each other a few times. Last time we spoke to formally was on stage at EGX in in London. Packed out crowd standing room only. I mean, it felt like a proper celebration, but I

remember backstage you looked tired. Oh, yeah. The game still wasn't quite ready yet. So, you might have been anxious. It feels like it might have been a bit of a torturous journey to that point, but at the same time, it was so it was it had proved such a successful game. It did so well. It was so wellreceived. How were you feeling at that point? I was tired. I was very tired and and stressed and and well, that that's part of this work. I feel making games. It's a very complex thing. And especially with Alan Wake too, as I said, I really really wanted to kind of like be hands on. I mean, it's always teamwork and wonderful colleagues, really talented people, but I really wanted to be hands-on in many areas, you know, writing, directing, also co-directing the live action parts, which we had a lot. I wanted to be involved in making the

music especially the lyrics with a lot of wonderful musicians collaborating. I was acting a part in it. There there were a lot of lot of elements there. When this kind of a big machine production starts rolling, it's not built around one person's availability. So if you want to do all of these different things, you need to be flexible and you need to stress and stretch and you need to be working like like a crazy person to achieve it. I felt it was worth it but it was a lot and there there is always this struggle of you know the creative vision but then the production realities and the schedules and the the the budget and the scope and and and it's complicated so towards the end yes I I had been working a lot of nights and a lot of weekends and and for a long

long time and I was very tired but I'm I'm looking back I I wouldn't change a thing like like I'm I'm really proud of what we achieved but I I was at the point where I just had to do a sapatical like I went away uh at the end of the project for half a year and that was much needed and and well feeling much better uh these days after it. Where did you go? Did you go anywhere nice? Um, some some vacation trips and then just like, you know, as as you do in Finland, summer cabin over a long summer and and yeah, just taking it easy and not building any kind of a I must do this and this and this, but rather keeping the keeping the calendar empty. But you had your notebook with you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and plenty of ideas

for sure. It's weird though because I guess video games aren't necessarily built that way. That sort of alter sort of somebody in being involved in every corner of the project. It gives games, you know, Kjima brings springs brings to mind. It creates a sort of unique style that you don't get from other games of that scale. But because of the complexity of making video games, it doesn't feel like a very sustainable way from an individual point of view to to making a game like this. But obviously, it can pay off even if you have to break yourself. Yeah. To do it. I mean like I I would not be doing that alone. I I really believe in collaboration. Kyle Rowley is the game director. So we were co-directing this whole thing. I was writing it together with Clay Murphy. Uh Anie Mata is our live action director. So we were co-directing uh live action parts and they were as said wonderful musicians. So I felt that I had a very talented kind of a

professional partner in every area. Yeah. Uh who could of course contribute it in a in a big big way and could also carry it if I needed to be somewhere else. How would you rank it then in terms of your achievements and wait too because it feels to me it feels I think it's your best work by you know and and then that's saying something. How do you feel about Well, thank you. I mean, obviously time does things to how you feel about your projects and getting some distance. I I don't think that we we are far enough from Malan Wake to really yet to to be able to compare. But yeah, I'm I'm I'm very proud and I'm very happy. I I I feel through all of our games, there are certain elements that I've been really interested in interactive storytelling that I've been kind of like experimenting on and

building on like bringing in different mediums. Mhm. Into into the video game context. And certainly we were able to push that much further. I would say a leap forward in this one. And that includes live action, that includes, you know, pages of pros and poetry and photography and and uh, you know, a musical sequence with dance choreography and custom songs with with custom lyrics that are about the storytelling and all of these things. kind of like finding a way to weave them together is something that I I'm really interested in and feel passionate about. But also in Alan Wake 2, we managed to finally, I would say, in a remedy game, create gameplay mechanics that were about the story. Not

just about like having your action core gameplay and then experiencing the story on the side, but finally with the case board and the plot board and finding clues and all of this kind of like we were bringing now finally mechanics that are about how you experience the story and how you kind of like put the story together. that as well felt like a clear step forward when it comes comes to storytelling in in the context of a game. Yeah, it was certainly certainly distinctive. When the news came out that you were making Alan Wake 2, I was extremely excited cuz I was a big fan of the very first game. But as a business journalist, my brain also thought, well, that makes little financial sense. And um and um have you have you ever felt tempted to just, you know, make a big first person shooter or open world action RPG and

just, you know, cash in and I'm not the poetry this time. Not the not the live action. I'm just going to I'm going to make a hit. I'm going to make myself a 10 million seller cuz I'm sure you could. Well, I mean the the the whole story of making the first Alan Wake game, obviously it's well documented that we were planning on doing an open world free roaming open world game and and and we failed. We we just couldn't couldn't make it work and we kind of like went into more linear direction. I think that we have been on the design side taking step uh step steps to let's say a more modern way of building the world and the missions and control was uh a big step into that kind of like this semiopen hub like structure and the credit for that in a big way goes goes

to Mikail Kasurin who is the game director on the control side uh bringing that and very much the learnings from that we took into Alan Wake 2 and so the world was built in hubs and then we have missions in the hub. So, so it's already it's not a linear tool, it's a more open structure. I think that that that has been that one kind of like learning is that we have we have taken steps towards various goals patiently kind of like step by step instead of doing too big of a leap and suddenly being in a place where we are not really that familiar with these elements and don't have experience but rather building towards it. So you know we we are looking into more open structure in some cases. I think it's it's logical to build on on what we have on the foundation of the

previous game. Um so so there is that but it's you know my passion is in storytelling. Yeah. and and and I'm I'm really really kind of like want to keep on finding opportunities to explore like like new ideas uh within that context in the games. I mean, I know I I say I'm a business journalist, but I would argue focusing on what you do well and the things that you create. Don't chase the trends, you know, but video game costs keep going up, right? and the time it takes uh to make them seems to be getting longer and longer. Um not quite as long as the first wake, right? How how mindful are you as a as a writer and a creative director to those sort of financial pressures uh surrounding the business or do you just sort of leave those concerns aside when when making something? Well, well, I mean everybody has a role which is a positive thing

like like I I was just talking about stretching thin in trying to do various things. Adding you know business side to it or production uh would would be quite a lot. That being said, of course you need to be mindful of these things because ultimately if you are not, you will not be able to create the game. This side of things needs to be taken in into account. And and for me more and more I've grown to think that this is the early phases of a project are so crucial. making solid plans, doing estimates, making sure that what we are about to start building is within the accrete scope and and and also in a case of story focused

experience that that we have a screenplay and we are far enough in uh figuring out the story so that we can when we kick off the actual production because That's the most expensive part of course just having 100 uh 150 people on monthly salary it it it starts earning the budget really fast. It's also making sure that all the plans are in place and tested and vetted. And that also very much speaks for building on the foundation of what you know and what you have already kind of built and and you know team being familiar with the tools that that you are using and preferably key members of the team having been there to build the previous experience

and and and that then just kind of like going from there. There is lot of excitement in new ideas always but I also think that there is nothing wrong in the idea of building a sequel uh based on the previous games. I don't see Alan Wake too quite that way because there was such a huge gap in between and and games that really moved forward. But but just this idea of building something and then relying on certain things that were successful in that and creating more and then sure innovating in some areas that that just makes it more predictable. That consistency does obviously help, you know, that sort of consistency from one game to the other and being able to build upon um everything you've done before. From the outside though, Remedy does looks like a pretty unique place to work with. Yeah.

Um it seems to, you know, afford you and your teammates to do these sort of wild, experimental, unusual things or at least they feel wild and experimental in the AAA game space. Have they ever said no? Have you ever come to them with a with an idea and a pitch and they've gone, Sam, no, absolutely not. Well, uh I I mean certainly there are passionate and sometimes heated discussions. Uh I mean the goal is to create successful entertainment products. Yes, I want to put in as much art as possible, but ultimately here at Remedy, we we are everybody is on this together and and success on one side then is success for everybody. there is sensibility in people having different viewpoints and and roles and then kind of like voicing uh ideas and voicing concerns is an important part of the

process. It's rarely the case where and I would not even want it that way that let's say myself or some other creative or game director would be just coming with an idea and there would not be iteration on the idea based on uh very early notes. You will miss things and you have not thought about things from all angles. and and that's why it's teamwork even on kind of like early production sensibilities and and business sensibilities those are the earliest conversations that we have so it's part of this and and it's it makes this work possible it's an important part of it I mean sure like nobody loves being told

that that this doesn't work your idea doesn't work. But that is an important step into making something that that that works. That being said, I fully believe that being unique and being original and and doing some things that that make you stand out are vital for competition perspective. There is a lot of noise out there, lot of great games. So making the same kind of a game and and maybe not having as much resources as the really really big platform owners or own studios have. We just need to find a way to stand out game like Alan Wake too. How much of this is something a game you wanted to make and how much of it is you thinking about the audience and what you what you think they would want to receive that sort of balance between sort of an artistic expression

of yourself whilst also trying to make a a product really for for an audience. I think it needs to be both. It needs to be both always. It's a long journey making a game. It's a struggle and you will be tired. So, so it needs to be something you fully believe in and feel passionate about otherwise you will not kind of like have the strength to push through. That's one side of it. You need to be really really excited about making this kind of an experience. But then I feel as creative and and and with experience of the previous games suddenly we analyze and look at the reception of our previous games and do analyszis on on them like which parts worked great which were not liked to the point of a trend.

So we shouldn't repeat the weakest parts again hopefully and come up with something better on that. I mean I feel from creative perspective you can be passionate about succeeding in that as well. And and very much one example would be now that we are building a universe remly connected universe between Alan Wake and control. It would kind of be easy to fall into the trap of just making the experience for you being very deep in that lore, but also your most excited fans who who very much know everything. But that that's not the ambition. the the ambition very much and and I fully kind of like sign on the dotted line on the idea

of we want to make every game whether it's a sequel or whether it's part of the universe something that is approachable for a newcomer who has never played the remedy game before. You need to be able to play through. Yes, you will probably miss connections and optional content that is more loreheavy, but you should be able to experience the kind of the the critical path and enjoy it. And that's a kind of a puzzle to solve with with each of these games. And a lot of the idea of two playable characters and and having the FBI agent Saga Anderson be uh kind of like a dual protagonist in Alan Wake 2 comes initially from this idea that that she doesn't know this world. She doesn't know this supernatural or lore and she

comes in to investigate and the whole setup of FBI agents coming into a place that they don't know to investigate a murder is is very much very familiar to a wide wide audience. So as a starting point making that be the beginning of the game making it approachable. for somebody who doesn't know anything about Alan Wake or or Remedy Universe was part of a solution to this kind of and I feel really happy about what we did with that. But but it's this kind of like it's it's puzzling these things together and you know then creating with saga the story I feel passionate to tell but also being mindful of the audience and and and kind of ambition for reaching a larger audience. Great answer. Um I'll change the subject a little bit cuz I read your GQ interview

and you talked about the character of Sam Lake. I remember the first time I got an email from you and I said who's this Sammy Javi? I don't know who's he who's he work. Yes. But also it's not just you know the name is the coffee there's the suits and you sort of played this role for quite a long time now. Do you still see two distinct sides of yourself or is there an element of not really knowing where ends and Sammy Javi begins? Is there you are you sort of slowly merging into a different person? I yeah very interesting. It can also be kind of a buffer and and and a bit of a, you know, a shield in a way. But then once again, time does things to you and and your perception of of things. I was very self-conscious and shy uh growing up and and I I really hated per the forming. Well, that's not quite right. the small things of performing say in a

school play I didn't mind but but there there's the role then but but doing a presentation in front of a class was the absolute horrifying thing and early years uh promoting Max Bane I was so nervous about demoing the game and talking about it at the same time I did not have any hesitation or problems in posing as Max Bane in the first game. So, so there is this weird schizophrenic thing and you know the spelling of Finnish names is tricky and I I I saw saw many errors in the credits of the first game which was Death Rally by our publisher in the manual. Many of the names were misspelled and always kind of like you know explaining how to spell it just

felt like a chore. But I also like early on I was feeling quite strongly that when I write in my native tongue in Finnish what comes out is very different from writing in English. And that felt like an important point to me. So, so using using the artist name Sam Lake from early on felt like a solution and I felt good about that and yes it's it it was a bit of a you know a role in in a sense and then of course you know when you do it years that there is it it feels like there there never was an option to go back anymore it didn't make any sense these days having professional ally written in English and more and more in my work life English is the language we communicate in in the documentation but

here also because remedy half of the people working at remedy come from somewhere else than Finland it's been going on for so long I don't believe anymore that that my output when I when I write and and how I see it is that difference between the languages. I I I I feel well maybe I've I've gotten better with the language along the way as well, but I I don't feel that there is difference anymore and I don't feel that strongly about, you know, doing so much of the promotion work. I don't feel shy about it anymore or haven't for for years and years. So these things evolve. But well, I'm I'm happy to be Sam Lake. Yeah. In in all of this. I think all of us, particularly anyone that has a a role that's remotely public facing, you've got a you've got a you've got you play versions of yourself, right? It's

not like you're completely different. It's just that I I when I started doing this, and nowadays I don't even think twice about it. I was on the BBC this morning talking about um my Minecraft movie. you know, 10 years ago, the thought of that would have sent me into a meltdown, right? I do feel like I do love the meta layer of of storytelling and and being aware of these roles and and I do feel like that is part of the reason why you know Sam Lake as a character especially now in Alan Wake in in various ways in DLC as well keeps popping in into the fiction and and I think that that's part of this kind of like, well, hold on. How does this role actually work? And what what does it mean? And how much of it is fiction and not? So, so that just feels like a natural extension of thinking about these things and playing around with them. With your personality and doing

Tik Toks with coffee, you do a little bit of PR and marketing, I guess, for your games. And now that Remedy is sort of moving into self-publishing, are they tapping you on the shoulder now to be your to be the uh head of marketing and to come up with some of the plans? Happily not. I I I I I feel we are still figuring it out and we are in a transition position. remedy have have grown so much and and for years and years it was always one game at a time and now it's several and and you know coming out of Alan Wake 2 feeling that I was like doing as much as I possibly could do. You know the question of well how about doing another project on the side simultaneously just feels well that's too much is right and and and so what what we have now done uh already for a

while is that I'm not the only creative director in the company Kasurin is we we are co-creative director now and we are dividing work and at the same time every project like like I will have a project where I'm deep go deep and and be hands on and Mikail has a project that he goes deep and is hands on but beyond that we we are planning the overall universe and we are involved say with Annaperna pictures now of course you know exploring the idea of our world and and our universe being also in linear media. But every project has a kind of a strong creative core group of its own. And how I see it is

that for this project I'm I'm I'm really more a consultant coming in when when they they want nodes or when we have an internal gate kind of looking at it from perspective of my expertise which would be then storytelling and and and just giving advice when needed. This definitely feels like the the best uh solution we we have figured out to just growing and doing things simultaneously because otherwise if it's up to one person to kind of come up with the vision and and direct it through then we would still be doing more or less one project or one bigger project and another tiny project or something like that. and and the ambition is to do more. The reason why I asked the marketing I remember speaking to someone at Bethesda years ago who said that Todd Howard is actively involved in the marketing

because for their point of view the first time their audience touches Fallout or experiences Fallout is when they see the trailer is when they see the artwork. And I guess you are involved in that stuff anyway. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And of course things like uh drinking a cup of coffee in a lake is all very very Alaman way. I guess that's the market team has to also understand the vision for the project and understand the vibe and the thing. better. But but but that's the question of what what's the cause and what's the effect that that me me in a lake uh is that because in Finland that's what you do in the summer with with thousands of lakes and and and that's why we have uh lore focused on a lake in in Alan Wake or do I go into lake because there is a lake in Alen Wake and very much and More and more I feel maybe that's an a age question as well. More and more I feel I'm I'm drawing inspiration from Finnish culture

and and kind of like things that are very familiar to me growing up here. Yeah. That gives that the uniqueness as well we talked about earlier. Well, I'm conscious of the time. Um but you know seeing as this is you have your lifetime achievement. You you've achieved all your things you need to achieve in your lifetime. Now, now another lifetime's worth. Yeah. Yeah. So, what's the ne the next lifetime? What would you what what what's your what you like to achieve? You wanted to write books initially. Is that is there a part of that or is are you still is it still love for video games? That Yeah. Like like I I I was thinking that I would be a novelist and and then Remedy happened and and so this is a 30-year detour to that dream. Yeah. I I'm I'm I'm hoping that I will get a chance maybe once I finally retire from making games to still still do creative work

and write and have other maybe then smaller more personal projects but but not yet personally right now I mean we have a lot of games in the making uh keeps me busy for sure and planning the universe beyond I am personally really excited about the the possibilities with Anna Berna on TV and film and for sure we've been trying to get something started on and off for years and years and years and and and we are in very early stages now. So, so I'm aware that it's a complex process and and you never know, but I have to say that they are a wonderful partner and I am cautiously optimistic about kind of like our our exciting discussions there. I hope to be able to be involved in that process as it as it goes forward. Yeah. Brilliant.

Well, I look forward to I'm certainly looking forward to I mean, we sort I sort of feel like I know what a Sam Lake movie might be like based on the uh based on what you've done in games, but I get a sense of it, but I think it would still be very very surprising. Well, thank you so much, Sam, for your time. It's a pleasure to have you on the show and to give us so much of your time and insight into into doing. And congratulations again on your award. Thank you very much. Yeah, this was fun. Thank you. That's it for today's episode of the Game Business Show. Join us later in the week for our news and analysis show. Until then, thank you for tuning in. Greatest movie of all time. I'll say Maltis Falcon. PC or console? Console these days? Yes. If you could direct a video game based on a franchise other than your own, what would it be? I would do uh Ming game. Ah, very Finnish. Greatest album of all time? Tom Wade's Rain Docks. How many suits do you own? Seven or eight. Oh, probably it be

higher. If you can't have a coffee, what do you drink? I drink green tea. Oh. And what one piece of advice would you give to budding video game creators? Start creating. For me and many other video game makers, tabletop role playing games can be a surprisingly great low barrier of entry.