Peter Molyneux and friends tell us how it feels to reunite for one final game

There's a lot of people that like um cozy games. I think they became really popular during co actually, but I find them incredibly boring. I can understand the appeal of them, but I'm like so much nicer if you just mix in a bit of extreme violence.
I never agreed with these meetings talking about target audiences. I don't like the word target. Target is somebody you want to kill. I am petrified because we are going into a world we really don't really fully understand. Hello and welcome to the game business show. I am here in Guilford to meet a genuine video game legend, Peter Moly, the creator of Populace theme park, Fable Black and White and countless others. He is reunited with some legendary BAFTA winning and BAFTA nominated friends including Russell Shaw, Kareem Matney, Mark Healey, and Ian Wright. And together they're creating a new game called Masters of Albian. I've got the privilege of interviewing them all right now. Let's do this.

Hello. Hello, Peter.
Have a little chat.
Yeah, sure. Of course.
This is this is this is 22 cans. Yes, this is this is 22 cans. There's a few people missing today because normally our at work days are Tuesdays and Thursdays. Oh, I see.
And we have got quite a few remote workers.
You got some remote workers. How many are there of you now? I was 22 was the original vision, wasn't it?
Well, you're only saying that because of the name 22 cans. It's 24.
Okay. It's a really small team.
Yeah, a tiny team.
Um and and are they all from the local because obviously was it Lion Head was that way and
Yeah. So if we were standing here, Black and White was made in um an office over there.
The Movies was made in an office over there. Fable was made in an office over there. Dungeon Keeper was made in an office over there. So every every road on the research pole
What was Guilford scene like when you

started? Was it Did it exist?
Oh, it didn't exist. When I first started, we're in this little tiny office which was free over a shop in the high street and uh in this disgusting little office and I can remember trying to because the biggest problem when we first started was finding people cuz you know computer games weren't were a career. So I can remember seeing a pavement artist drawing and oh my god that's fantastic. So I thought I I'll just be you know unbelievably generous. I walked up to him and said, "I'm doing computer games. Would you, you know, consider coming to work for it?" And he said, "Well, you couldn't afford me. [laughter] I make 350 quid a day from doing pavement dances." So, in the early days, it was, you know, just us. And then slowly this scene blossomed around Guilford
and now, you know, you walk into local Tesco's or you walk go to a pub and there's always someone.
Wow.
Incredible. Now we talk about this is

the team is quite but you've obviously brought back some old friends for masters of albian some unbelievably talented people marquee Kareem Ian Wright Russell Shaw you know all these people were the people that we made um black and white dungeon keeper and uh fable with uh but there's some new people so shall I just take show me some new people
firstly let me introduce you to Neil. Neil is the writer.
He does all the narrative and the the dialogue in the game and he is unbelievably funny. [laughter] And then let's take you to Gary. Gary is one of the most amazing coders that I've ever worked with and he really singlehandedly has done a vast portion of the code here.
Oh wow. Um, he refuses to use a desk, so he always uses

[laughter]
Jod. Jod is a designer.
Hello. Jody does a fantastic job picking up all the pieces that I drop. He also has done an awful lot of the quests in the game. Richard is another coder specializing in the character movement and some combat stuff. Then the wonderful Anna. Anna has worked here what [snorts] seven eight
11 years
11 years really specializing in the geometry of the world and the HUD and the icons. I'll take you around to Francis. Francis is a new boy. Oh,
you've only been here what 2 years?
About a year and a half.
A year and a half. And Francis has been working on a lot of the quests and a lot of the art for the quests. And then Thomas, a gameplay programmer. And Thomas is one of the most enthusiastic people here and a true delight to work with. And then we've got Josh. Josh is

the designer.
I guess I'm the newest. I've 6 months now.
Oh, how have you found it?
It's been lots of fun.
Lots of fun.
My first game industry job.
Yeah.
Peter was very kind to take me in. I'm very happy to be here.
Yeah. And this is part of my interview style. There's a there there's an energy about people and Josh just came in. He came in for some work experience and there's just this energy about him and that energy is why he was employed more than any qualifications I think.
All right.
And then over here we've got test the real work.
That's why they they don't look terribly happy.
I remember approaching deadline on testing. Yeah. So, we've got Tommy, we've got Daniel, and we've got Maisie. Some of the people here are sons and daughters of members of staff, and Maisie is the daughter of a member of staff. We've got actually got four siblings.
Hello.
Working here, which is fantastic. And then in here, we've got hidden away.

This is our community team. They're doing all all the videos, and they're both fresh out of university. Yeah, they're doing a good job. We've got a deadline coming up with the gameplay trailer.
Gameplay trailer, right?
How's it going, boys?
Good. We've nearly just finished the second animatic for it, so uh we'll be able to show you soon.
Great. Great.
How when you say soon, when is soon?
Today.
Today. Fantastic.
And then we've got a shower, some toilets, and a kitchen.
Oh, nice.
Nothing particularly.
Well, shall we meet your sort of returning crew? Um, Kareem, Mark, Ian, and uh, and Russ.
You'll have to brace yourself for the for the tidal wave of passion that comes out of them. I can't wait. Let's go.
Hello. Welcome to the show. What absolute privilege to be surrounded by such legends of game development. Um, Peter, how does it feel to have got the band back together?

Well, it's amazing to work with these guys. I mean, they're incredibly incredibly talented and they just know what's right and it's been an incredible few years to work with them again.
Mark, I'm actually going to talk speak to all of you really because you how your history with Peter goes back really far, right? Like 92 or something.
Oh, I don't like to think about the actual numbers, but yeah, a long time ago for sure.
How did you first meet? How did that all come about? So, I came for an interview at Bullfrog, which was just over the road from here, actually. Um, yeah, I just lost my job doing Commodore 64 games or something. Ancient ancient computer.
Yeah, I came for an interview as an artist. Turned up with what I thought was my portfolio, but was actually a pirate copy of Daint. I brought the wrong disc. Um, but luckily the art director at the time, Paul McLolin,
kind of just trusted me or something. I

don't know. And he gave me a job anyway. And I felt guilty and sort of came back with my actual work. But
yes, I started as an artist on um at Bullfrog.
Did work on Dungeon Keeper was the main first thing that I did with you, I think.
Yeah. So, I worked at Bullfrog and then when Peter left Bullfrog to start Lion Head, I went there with him,
worked there for a bit. Um yeah, and then
on black and white.
On black and white. Exactly.
Um so yeah, a lot of the games that this current game is kind of, you know, using as
fuel if you like.
I was actually there for the original ones. Um
left at some point to go and do my own thing with Kareem over there.
Yeah. Medium molecule.
Yeah. We started our own company, had our own journey, sort of exhausted that, lived, you know, milked that for all that could.
What an amazing journey that was.
Oh yeah, it was fantastic. Yeah, we had great time. Um, hugely influenced by our time at, you know, Lion Head and Bullfrog culturally.

That was the sort of foundation of it all really in our
creative process, I would argue. Um, but yeah,
it's amazing that we everyone sites their creative process at Lion Head and and Bullfrog, but I never remember us actually having, you know, like written down, right, we must do this and this.
Oh, that's half the point, though. It was it was it was just we didn't really really pay much attention to production and schedules and we we we just
creatively wandered around these games and I think that was part of it.
No. Well, that's exactly what we tried to do at Media Molecule to be honest with you.
Unfortunately, at some point the corporate machine takes over
and they do try to formalize these things and
which is what is our culture. let's let's write down the pillars of what our culture are and then it all just
goes out the window basically. But um
but anyway, so yeah, one thing led to another. I've always kept in touch with Peter anyway and

was kind of curious of what was he was up to and he sort of kind of sneakily roped me back in I think. I don't know. I just
Well, I offered to help out a little bit and before I know I'm here full-time sort of
helping to finish it or whatever. So it's great sort of coming full circle. You did well. First time you saw um Masters, you did say that looks
I didn't say it looks I wouldn't have said that. I would have said it could look better is what happened.
You've [laughter] never been that I'm English, you know.
Yeah.
It's I just realized that one of my first things I ever worked on before I was a games journalist, I was in games testing and one of the first games I tested was Little Big Planet.
Oh, really?
Yeah. It was back in 2000.
Wow. I didn't know that.
It was a very I was like I was I was in localization QA. I was there for like 9 months.
How old were you?
Uh 22, I think.
Where was that?
It's a company called Universally Speaking. They're based in Cambridge here. And uh they had a contract with Sony. So I did Uncharted, Ratchet and Clank, Tools of Destruction, Little Big

Planet. Wow.
Um yeah, that was a
It's scary how long ago it is actually. So many people say, "Oh, that was my childhood." And I'm talking to like an old man and I'm like, "God, I feel so old."
[laughter]
Well, I I'll ask the same question to you, Ian, because you don't go back quite so far, but you also had was it four years you were at Lion Head? Is that right?
Yeah, four or four or five, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how did you how did that begin and for you cuz you you'd worked at was it Argonaut before then?
That's right. Yeah.
Yeah. So, I was at Argonaut. I'm I'm a bit of a newcomer to this group. Um Yeah. Yeah. And I was at Argonautal and um I got an interview came and met Peter couple of buildings down Okam court. Um we had a pretty good interview. Don't know if you remember. I was amazing by the way. [laughter] Absolutely. Wow.
You didn't forget your portfolio and I think I think didn't I have a cigarette in the middle?
Well, so um we were in the boardroom and the interview was going I thought really quite well. He was very easy to get on with and uh he offered me a cigarette is

in in the boardroom and I thought it was some sort of [laughter] test maybe or a treat and I did smoke cigarettes at the time and I thought it was a you know maybe some sort of test and I said no thanks I do smoke but not right now and then Peter walked to the this is on the top floor third floor um he walked to the window opened the window sat on the window sill and sparked up a Mulra light and carried on in the interview while he smoked it and I thought now that is where I want to work. [laughter]
You just reminded me by the way I I went for an interview at Argonaut before I got my job at Bullfrog.
Oh yeah.
And funnily enough in the interview they asked me if I smoked and I said I better say no cuz it might
they might not like smokers. But unfortunately a packet of cigarettes fell out of my pocket when I was getting my disc and they oh I oh no they think I'm right.
It probably went in your favor.
History could have been very different then. But you've done some amazing things since then right? Alien Isolation and Horizon and

Assassin's Creed Watchd Dogs.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't think I would have gone on to do those other games if I didn't have, you know, Fable um and Black and White 2 and and Lion Head on the CV. And one of the first questions I get asked, I've been kind of all around the world, various studios, um, when people find out that he worked on, you know, Fable 2, um, the first question is always, "What's Peter like? What's he really like?"
And, uh, thankfully he's actually quite a good bloke, so it's, you know, it's never that uncomfortable. But that is, that is the serious truth. I've been asked that
in every interview by every every person I've ever met. So, you know, this place has has a huge influence on the industry. So, yeah.
Kareem, your history with Peters, it was a bit shorter, right? It was a shorter stint.
Yes. I uh I joined in in in the Line Head period

just after Black and White one.
Mhm. How did that happen?
Yeah. Well, I too have so much to say about how how how much I love working with Peter really. And I I you know when you are saying Peter about a lot has been said about the creative uh process in in in Lion Head and and and and Bullfrog and Medium but nobody really articulates it. There's a very good reason for that. As soon as you try to explain something it ceases to be clear and and some of the best best things are are are kept unexplained. you know in rock and roll history they only talk about the the the mythology around the musicians they never talk about exactly maybe the era of the internet now dissects the music more and go deep dive but actually it's really good left un unsaid I I I joined in uh I

worked I'm I'm from Egypt I I I did my advertising graphic design I'm I'm trained in the old ways you know I'm I could go back and work in the 17th century if if if
you'd love to as well.
I'd like that. I would love to,
but I can also go and work in the 30 30th century. I I the I'm very lucky in the sense that I've been uh uh the the way I learned art and design is the the the timeless way you and and then any industry I work in is a is a costume that you put on uh on top of that. Uh so I worked in advertising, set design, graphic design, all of it. And then I decided to work in video games in the late '9s, early 2000. And I only applied to Lion Head. I never had a CV. I don't like CVs. And I only applied in Line Head because I saw the website and I really liked Christian's drawings.

I remember.
Uh and I'm like, I can do I I I
can do better than that.
No, I just like the vibe, man. And then I I met Peter and Paul and like Mark. Exactly. I was instantly struck by it was here the the the Lion Head and I really like the vibe, you know, the vibe of the place. There was a guy called Tom, like a programmer who was just a genius dude who was walking around thinking and stuff and then the Peter and a bunch were like doing something over there and somebody was it it was ve but it was very very serious. You know, some people caricature the creative process and that's not cool too. I don't like the romanticized version of it, nor do I like the over formulaic version of it. There is something in between
and Peter is is [clears throat] the man of creating that vibe.
Thank you.
Um Russ, if you can hear me, I hope I'm

being clear. Your history goes really far back though, right? It goes to 92 as well with Mark and everyone. It does. Yeah. I was um working at at Bray Studios in winter in the recording industry and I was getting really disenchanted with the whole thing working with with people in recording studio situations, but I was a really keen gamer and um the Atari ST was the big machine of of studio days for running sequences. And of course we would load games onto these machines and play them. So it became a real sort of hobby of mine. And um I was reading a magazine called PC format and Peter had said he was on the lookout for people from the recording recording industry to come to games. So I rang Bullfrog and uh Peter actually picked up the phone. I just said to him, "Yeah,

I'm looking I'd really be interested in come to join you and work at All Frog." And he said, "I'm really sorry, but we just taken someone on." And so I said, "But anyway, what have you done in the past?" And I said, "Well, I used to work for Jerry Anderson." [snorts] And it turns out Peter was a big fan of Jerry Anderson
and I was straight in at Corpro. [laughter]
Wow.
Yeah. basically our first m our first audio person. I hired him because he played the guitar really well, but he knew nothing about computer game music. So, only lasted a few weeks.
Uh, but Russell came along and, you know, he just he just understood, you know, what I wanted before I wanted it. And that stays the same today, I think.
Let's talk about this game then. So Peter, give me the pitch. What is Masters of Albian?
Masters of Albian at its heart, it's a god game.

Now, no one can really describe what a god game is. We all know what a battle royale game is or a first person shooter is or role playing game is, but what is a god game? And I think what Masters of Albian tries to do is to define that in a way that is understandable. And for me, Masters of Albian is about freedom. We give you this amazing world, this amazing land of Albian which is just full of incredible things and we give you challenges but we don't tell you you must do this, you must solve this this problem this way. So really as it turns out I think god games are about freedom. The freedom to approach the game how I want to approach it. If I want to build a build the the town up, I can do and I can spend my time city building. If I want to go out adventuring, I can do. I

can if I want to turtle and build up defenses, if I want to unlock tech trees, I can do any of those things in any combination. So, it's about freedom and that and the design of the game has been inspired by what we did on Dungeon Keeper on Black and White and Unfable. So, if you're playing the game, I think it'll if you play any of those previous games, I think the game will feel familiar. It's the best of Peter. So, out for everyone else, what was it about the game that appealed to you in particular? And I guess it's your game, but like what was it when you first heard of it? Uh the thing that attracted me was um the sort of contrast that there is between the day and the night.
The the way I would describe the game in the shortest possible way is cozy by day and chaos by night basically. It's
and there's a lot of people that like um cozy games. I think they became really popular during co actually. But I find them incredibly boring. I can understand

the appeal of them, but I'm like it's so much nicer if you just mix in a bit of extreme violence as well just to sort of balance it out a little bit.
Do you know do you know that the genre that is most associated so people like use influencers that do cozy games and the other thing they do alongside cozy games is horror games.
Well, there you go. There's a desire for it obviously.
It's um so that's what that's what excited me about it was just that wanting to try and accentuate that contrast. Let's get people into a nice sense of coziness during the day. They're building their products and then at night we'll rip them to pieces. Zombies, [laughter] which is appeals to me.
And the great thing about that contrast is you can spend as long as you like getting ready for that chaos at night and and in any way you like. And that means that even if you are a cozy player, I think you'd enjoy the excitement of them. I think the two things suit each other. Ian Kareem Ian, let's you let's go down the line. What

was it about this game that um I mean I guess you you it's weird to say what appealed to you about it seeing as you worked on it and you helped develop it, but like what's what's it that attracted you at the start?
It's not like anything else. It's it's the way it takes a bunch of kind of familiar things and puts them together in in a way that's kind of driven by you. Like I quite like building up the town, earning money, doing the business stuff. And I can just do that kind of as as long as I want. Um when I want it to go tonight because I've set up on my town to be defended, I can do that. So that's what I really like about I think that's something about a lot of your games is this freedom. You know, there's no real limits. We don't sort of say what you can or can't do. We just kind of give you this playground. And um yeah, that's what I like about it. It's kind of it's it's it's all of what

Peter's known for um in one place and it's it's pretty good. It's nice to be back in Albian as For me personally,
it's it's lovely to see
Kareem.
Yeah. To echo, I think Peter's Peter's point about freedom,
I can I can carry that and say, well, there was not only freedom in your games, but freedom in the teams making the games. the thing that we're reminiscing about and talking about the vibe of the people Peter style of working itself he you can't confine Peter and as a result he didn't confine any of us as well so I got attracted to work in that way again because I like working in that way before even talking about the game I like working in that way the mean is the end the the way is the and result. So how we work matters very much to me. And then the on the

game itself, I really like the fact that the iteration on the the genre of power and control of gods, but the sleekness and cinematic bespokeness of the adventure game, which is like the the fable end uh me uh is a very interesting thing to keep trying to address and readress and readress the the cinematic, the prescripted, the the the slick versus the sand books, the freedom, the and how do you iterate that genre? This is the eternal idea of video games is that do you go all the way in in in in putting people inside this very slick environment or do you go all the way and I think Peter is the pioneer of of these genres is and and and I'm very excited to see another incarnation especially in this day and age. It's very needed to see this reincarnation and iteration of

of this mythology and freedom uh meets the contrast meets the slick meets the tense end of the
and it's interesting and maybe it's just a phase we we're going through but I think games have become very prescribed they're very right go do this this way now move on to the next and that for a lot of genres and that's perfect.
It's perfect. But I think we have lost this idea that, you know, I'm a player and I'm different to another player. Why should I be forced into a square shaped hole?
Russ was was what appealed to you? What made you think, right, I want to be involved in this? Well, Peter and I had a meeting before I came to the company and he explained that he was doing this game which was a mixture of Dungeon Keeper, Black and White, Fable.

And like Mark, of course, I did I did all those games. So, I said, "It's got to be me." So, uh, he agreed. And it it just the whole idea of a nostalgia trip of people who loved all our previous games to bring them all together into one one game in its own right just appealed to me massively.
Peter, when you remember we were in this room two years ago when you were telling me about this game, you told me you never made a great game. It's the second time you've told me you've never made a great game. And the reason you gave me is that you've never had a 10 out of 10 in Edge. You've had three nines, by the way. Um [clears throat] um I mean I firmly disagree with that assessment of your work. Um and I I kind of know want to know what your your friends what your friends think. You must he's made great games, right?
Oh yeah. With the help of us before anyone talks. Let me qualify.
It's not me making these games. It's these guys making these games. And you

know that we a lot we've talked about the creative process a little bit and really what I do is I just say Mark just make that look cool Russell make that sound cool Kareem you know here's a here's two sentences make an incredible fresco out of that Ian here's a landscape make it's not me going in
yes
like p proper designer would and going oh Mark you need to move that ear up two cm or you Ian, you need to move that tree over there. So, it's just giving them the confidence to to explore the world themselves. So, they're not my games, they're our games.
Yeah. And they're iconic, though. I mean, they make whether or not they got Edge 10 or not or sold 10 million copies or not, they are they have they have shaped this industry, I think. Anyway,
he's being humble. I have to I have to I have to say what he does because he he does more than ask us to do genius stuff.

I I I I I really think Peter is the most courageous designer and I like to use the word courage here because he's not afraid of his work. Uh a lot of you know when you're painting there's a point in a painting where you get afraid of the painting and then you're scared to change it. Peter is never scared to change.
I can vouch for that. [laughter] And that that is
at any stage of
at any stage of the process that's courage man and and unlike that in painting I can change the I can obliterate the nicest bit of the painting in the last day in the last hour if it's not right it goes and and and Peter's like that till the 11th hour. I love that courage because that is contagious and because he's like that we we all uh uh become like that instead of just like suddenly being uh a slave to your own peace you know and then I've

worked in projects where initially it starts rock and roll and cool and then becomes unbearable you know you just feel like
is this still our project or what you know so the courage and the vibe that you make in design and I like that you like your games and when you play them you you you continuously want to like them more you know John Lennon was never happy with his songs you know it's always like oh we could do it better
is that is that everyone agrees [laughter]
yes I I can't think of anyone else who's who's done it in as many different genres um and time after time You said it yourself, iconic. And I genuinely can't think of anyone else who's done it to that degree, proven time and time again with just these great games. And they're all different. It's not just kind of one type of game. It's it's it's every type of game. So yeah, you know,

but they are underneath all that. They're all the same because really what I'm thinking is I'm trying to elicit a feeling in myself when I play the games. you know, whether that feeling is suspense and danger or whether that feeling is relaxation. You know, I I think a lot of times people miss a trick that when I play a game, I want to escape the world, man. I want to escape my problems. I want to escape all the the noise. And just going in and playing a game and being relaxing is is just a wonderful sensation. Doesn't matter what genre you're playing. M
I think that that is enduring and exists through throughout all the games that I've made.
I had some things I noted down here. You know, don't think of GOG, good old games, the the retro retailer, they have a dream list where fans vote on what games they want to see ported back to PC that isn't available. Top of that list by a mile is Black and White. Oh wow.

125,000 votes for that game. Black and White 2 is number five, by the way. Um, so like that's that that's the most requested game to come back on on the retro retailer. Um, and obviously the Fable reboot is one of the big big Xbox games of the year, which I think speaks volumes to that impact and that legacy that is a that those games have those games have had.
Wasn't a question. It was just a thought
sh that's fascinating to know that.
It is fascinating. I mean, it makes me feel unbelievably proud that that people are still fascinated by those genres that we we went and created.
You know, I saw the Fable trailer, the latest Fable trailer, which I thought looked fantastic.
And I, you know, I was just, you know, filled with emotion and pride that something that we all created that felt impossible while we were creating it has has endured. and and and gone on. It's an amazing sensation.
My my he'll hate me if I keep bringing him up on podcast, but my brother is a

senior AI programmer on the Fable reboot.
And he and I got Fable 2 for Christmas 2008. He's 10 years younger than me and he fell in love with the game. Then he was at Lion Head in the year that they closed it. So he was on Fable Legends for a little bit. He was an intern there doing that kind of thing. And then he ended up end up ended up working on Sack Boy actually at Sumo and then and then and then um but was desperate to get back to when Fable was he heard about Fable he wanted to get back to it and that's the sort of that's the sort of leg that's what you know everyone's got their own stories right
when you say he's an AI programmer do you mean he's a programmer that uses AI or he's programming
he's a programmer about the uh the combat AI of Engs [laughter] a prompt in ask to do it yeah no he's he does he's a he's a he's a programmer Um,
small world.
I know it's Well, it just makes the impact of those games. Um,
yeah.
Now, Peter, this is probably a question for you. You're releasing this yourself. Um,
uh, how have you how ready are you for that? For being your own publisher?

Well, [clears throat] we are incredibly inexperienced. I am petrified because we are going into a world we really don't really fully understand. We've been lucky that there are lots of outside people that are coming in and helping us, but I'm sure we're going to make some horrendous mistake. Um, but I think you you know why not give it a try? If if this is going to be the last game, why not give it a try? One of the things that I'm really want to do, the game is going to be um early access.
Yeah.
Now, these days early access tends to mean well, it's finished, but maybe we've got a few bugs, but because the game has so many systems in uh in the the overall game as it's being played, we need to refine and balance and tweak those. So we spent a a lot of time

making sure that that's very simple and easy. So everyone says this from early access but this is absolutely true. We want to learn what people are focusing on in and what people are doing so that we we can refine and balance it [clears throat]
because you know as I as you pointed out you know I want to make a great game. A great game is made by absolutely made by incredibly talented people, but it also has to be refined. It has to be polished. And that's for me what early access is all about.
I can tell you this, we're going to make some horrendous mistakes. Horrendous, horrendous mistakes. And everyone here really the almost well everybody here we have hired them for their passion as you can see by the people sitting here.
We've also hired the the community team for their passion and they haven't got any experience because I I think for me

passion trumps experience every time and and and they truly truly care. But, you know, we're just setting up a Discord server now. How the hell does that work? [laughter] I mean, I don't really understand. And, you know, just making the mistakes and and correcting them quickly is is an important part of it.
That's that's that's all of it. Now, I was going to say how you because it's community. It's all about community these days, right? It is all about there are lots of tools that help you with it and there's lots of examples of how other people have done it, but that's the thing that you before you didn't have to worry about. Uh, one of the biggest problems we've got with the community is Masters of Albin. There's this incredibly rich, deep, meaningful story that runs through the game. How do you talk about the game without spoiling that story?
And part of that story is these incredibly unique gameplay mechanics that we unlock. you know, even after

you've been playing for 3 or 4 hours, we're unlocking new game mode mechanics. How and releasing those to the community before the game's released is is going to be spoilers. So,
this could be a question for anybody, but what who are you expecting to come in and play this game, right? Because obviously it appeals to me because it's it's it's the best of Peter Molyneu, best of ler, best of Bullfrog, but obviously what I found with games is that sometimes you can't predict what your audience is going to be. When [clears throat] um Rare made Sea of Thieves, they put it out at the test and the games that gamers that came into Sea of Thieves were fans of Rare. There were those sort of relatively casual Banjo Kazoui type players. When they put it out on Xbox and on Game Pass, they got a load of sort of slightly more competitive gamers came in and it to caught them by surprise. I'm interested to know who you were expecting. Who is your who is your audience? Who is the players for this? Well, because the game kind of is what the player makes it.
Yeah.
Rather like what Fable was and definitely like what Black and White

was, but not so much Dungeon Keeper.
I think the primary audience is going to be the fans of those three genres. [clears throat]
That's who the initial wash of players will be. I'm sure there'll be new players as well, but my hope is that that organically grows from there [clears throat] and brings, you know, new, younger gamers in. Um, because it will be so exciting to see what those players who haven't experienced in the games that I've done before feel about this unique blend of what Masters of Albian is.
That list you mentioned earlier on sounds like a good start to me. Yeah. [laughter]
Can we can we get the emails?
Yeah.
Um,
yeah. I mean, I think I think I think it'll be firstly it'll be the fans of those those genres. Yeah.
My boy my boy is 13 and he tells me every time I come here, please tell Peter to give me the uh uh ability to

play the game, you know, at home and test it. And he's from the generation that I can't even describe. You know, they play very differently and and and they were born with the screens and different era entirely and he likes it. He wants it too, you know. So on top of so it's Peter's list and my son [laughter]
and I think when you mentioned um cozy games as well, I mean it has got that aspect. I think a lot of people are just going to be building their little towns and painting them and decorating them up. I mean, I do that quite a lot. You you you can do that. I think there's going to be some people that come for the fights, you know, the nighttime. Um, yeah. So, I think it will like organically when Peter mentioned that, I think first
the fans will come, but I think the word's going to spread because there's so much you can do.
Yeah.
How hard has it been? because obviously

it feels like there's almost three different games in this and you me obviously in a way um in terms of the types of experiences. How hard has it been to make sure that you're hitting that quality level right because it's I guess it's a lot to get right. You've got to get the third person bit right and the god game bit right.
I mean the [clears throat] secret if if this isn't it's not much of a secret is to is to play and play and play and play again.
Mhm. [clears throat] The trouble is now it's about 30 hours long. So playing through takes a long time. But just playing and refining and putting your yourself in the right way. Imagine I'm an evil bastard that's going to
kill everything I see and just be unbelievably cruel to everything. Imagine I'm a which is this is far more likely. I'm a good person and can't bring myself to do anything bad against anyone in the game.
You tattered at me for kicking the chicken.
Yeah. Well, you know, [laughter] I touch it to you because, you know, kicking chickens is bad. And it's the very first

action you took in the game. You didn't have to kick the chicken. And you know, it it's that what we're doing is blending things together rather like making, you know, a delicious meal. You can use the same you can use different ingredients, but it's the blend of everything together that works so well, I think.
Yeah. and and user testing just we we use the University of Sar user testing lab and and we
we're doing a lot of user testing at the moment.
Oh wow.
I think just certainly myself in I'm sort of conscious of trying to make it not feel like three different games just wants to feel like like Peter says a blend. Um
so that's the um thing to be conscious of I think. M
um but it is scary and a challenge cuz we're a tiny team.
Yeah.
You know, and it's it's going to be held up against like

hundreds of million pounds of dollars budget type games and we're you know compared to them we haven't got any of those resources really. But um but I think you know the passion and the love and that
passion love and and and focus just laser beam focus on on what's important and that is the overall quality and polish. Would it be perfect in the first day of launch? I'm not sure.
Uh there'll be some ref. [laughter]
Well, it's free to give me a 10.
Um is that still is it even still going? Yeah.
You can't really get it in the shops anymore. Um I've not seen many. Um we've talked about how this game is part Dungeon Keeper, part black and white, part um um Fable. Were there any other inspirations outside of that that sort of gone into this?

No.
Yes. There were there were little snippets of things as they always are. I think when you're creatively approaching something, you're never sure when something, it could be a piece of music, it could be a movie, it could be it could be anything. It could be walking a dog will inspire you. And yes, the game has a lot of those. I'm not sure I can remember any of them. So, I'm not I'm sure it's a good answer.
Yeah. You know, the thing that um I don't know if this is relevant, but it feels like it might be is kind of going back to the creative process that we were talking about and that I think you've been brilliant at nurturing. A big key part of that is not actually starting with this kind of blueprint or this very clear idea of what it what it is you're making.
Point. Yeah. a big that's more like you're going on a sort of journey of discovery more than a journey of like manifesting this plan that you had and

then at some point it's almost like it sort of reveals itself to you
and then the biggest influence becomes the thing it itself it starts speaking to you you know and sort of saying this is this is what is needed and so that's the
that's what's really exciting about that kind of creative process when it works I think
it is as Martin says it's exactly like exploring you start out right I want to you know create games like this you don't know the route you're going to take and every day you know a feature comes in it has an overall effect and that inspires you to think of another new feature so you know this is one of the problems when you're more production led if you're more production led you by definition you need a defined design that production can get their teeth into and say, "Right, we need 10 artists, 15 coders."
But when you're in this this experimental

exploring type development,
you know, it it drives production people crazy because, you know, very often they would say say to me, "Well, why the hell didn't you think of that like 6 months ago?" M
and it's to Mark's point, you didn't think of it because you hadn't seen you hadn't experienced that moment in the game to realize that the game needed this amount.
And that's why in a way um Masters has been in development for so long.
Six years, did you say?
I think it's six years.
It feels longer.
There's there's new there is new inspirations as well. I remember the first time I was speaking to you Peter here and you were talking at length we I remember we were talking about the history of industrialization and and it's uh uh the manufacturing and all that and there is a new ingredient coming in the the it's easy to fall into

because of the long history and all the games and all to to talk about the blended black and white and fable But there is a lot of completely brand new uh take on uh uh the act of of of and the relationship between creating and manufacturing and and and then the adventuring that is very unique to this one.
I I feel like I need to get Russ involved. Um uh Russ is is when when it came to all these different components to the game and different ele you know the way that the way it moves from one type of game to another. How's that been from a audio and sound perspective?
It's easier nowadays than it has been in the past. We have the technology to be able to do that for a start. So, we can blend different sounds, different pieces of music, transition between different types of music and even the same piece of music but changing dynamically.

Um, have you found it difficult from a from, you know, from your artistic perspective to go from very cozy, very relaxed to suddenly zombies?
Oh, very much so. Yeah. I tend to separate those few things out. So, I have to approach it from I'm doing this music now and then when I when I approach this style of music, I different mode. So, um, horror and abuse, they are the two things I'm always trying to balance in our games.
Okay. Um, and and and I guess it and I guess it does sound like those two things somehow work together when they're when they're side by side.
Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] They do. I mean, I think we all we all understand this dichotomy that the game presents and and this switch between, you know, lovely English countryside daytime and spooky creepy night and Russell's

um sound effects and and music do that brilliantly. I think
I'm very um I'm very conscious of of the time it's getting hot in here as well. And
it's really hot in here. It's like an oven. It's slowly cooking.
This is the temperature. I love what you do. It's unbelievable.
It's just a wonderful I love this. It doesn't really happen in games. You get bands that come back together. You get movies that, you know, they do a remake. They bring back the original cast. That kind of happens all the time. I don't really see these stories in games so much. And it's kind of lovely.
It's kind of a nice thing.
I watched the Take That documentary the other night, actually. I have to admit.
Oh, who's the Bobby Williams? In the Bobby [laughter] Williams, you maybe? I don't know.
Yeah. Well, is
I was thinking more like the Real Madrid
sort of like
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is not just a question for Peter, it's a question for all of you really. But what for you personally and I guess for what would success look like for Masters of Albian? What would make you think yes, we did it?
Okay, I'm going to give you that

is that this game just brings people joy. That that for me is success. I mean, obviously I'm a greedy uh person. and I want, you know, a a percentage of the world's population to play the game. [clears throat]
But just realizing that people find joy and, you know, in however long it would be great to hear people say, I'm, you know, I remember playing Masters of Albium with my girlfriend and I asked her to marry me just like that happened with Fable and happened with Black and White. I love that because when I asked you that for Fable 3, you went five million sales. When we talked last time, it was a 10 and an edge and here it is. That's that that's what your games do. So, I think that's
Yeah, I I I think so. I can't begin to tell you how it feels to be part of a team that that creates joy.
Mhm. you know, in this, especially at

this time of year, this bleak world, just those moments of joy, for people to create memories they remember. And people do remember moments from Black and White and Fable. And you know, that that for me is the the greatest reward. And 10 million units, [laughter] a 10 out of 10, Mark. Um, I mean it's already successful for me as in my measurement of success is that I've got the privilege of spending time making it and doing it now. For me, that's as much success as I need really. Um, yeah. So, I just feel lucky that I get the joy of doing what I love doing with other people that love doing what I like doing and that's that's enough for me.
That's a lovely answer.
Yeah. I mean, obviously sales are really nice, but I never got into games into, you know, making games thinking about sales. I got into it thinking about exactly what Peter said. You know, I want people to enjoy it. I want people

to enjoy games the way I did. That that's made me want to make them. And um, you know, going back to that that black and white example, people now are still talking about that game. That's that's what games can mean to people. And um yeah, that that's what I want from this.
Yeah. To echoing again, I think you can never create joy if you don't have joy yourself in in in doing the thing. So the the greatest band I mean the joy of creation includes the suffering too, you know,
but we don't we don't talk about we don't talk about that. But no, but I mean like even the nice thing is that the the insecurity you go through when you're trying to draw something, it's like a I've lost it. I don't have it. And then you you you you do some research and you do some uh pro and then you feel good again. It's like it's all good. That's just within the mind of one

drawing. You But I enjoy working in this project a lot. I'm very grateful that I'm able to work in the way I I work and in the way I like to work. I've learned a lot of things in every piece of every task I have is an opportunity for me to meet again to one of my heroes and and look at their work as a so the the amount of absorb and reconnecting that I'm doing alone with all all the reason I'm doing this in the first place is already happening like Mark is saying and that always increases the chances of reaching somebody
of course we want to reach people but you can never reach them. I never agreed with these meetings talking about target audiences. I don't like the word target. Target is somebody you want to kill. [laughter] I I I can't talk about the audience. I can talk about myself. And if I am satisfied, that's all I can do, you

know. And then you can generate the love in that way. And maybe someone will love it. You have much more chances that someone will love it in that way. Russ, do you want to contribute? Is there anything what success looks like for you? Yeah, for me it's about if I'm proud of the game when it's released, I am proud of what I've done on it and it it reaches my own high bar because we all the games that we're including in this nostalgic trip will reach massively high bars and if we can get to that same bar would be that would be uh game one for me.
That was great. I'm I'm sort of I have to wrap up soon, but Peter Peter, when we last spoke, you discussed this might be a redemptive moment for you. I mean, if it does turn out that way and you know, your health's okay and all that kind of stuff,
could we not tempt you back for another one?
Well, let me let me just qualify what

I've said. I mean, there's I'm not going to walk out of this office that on the 22nd of April this year.
Yeah.
You know, there's shephering this through. We're planning three big chapters. This is the first chapter. But um you know, I'm 67 now. The truth is it all of this takes an unbelievable amount of focus and energy and it it's it's hard to find that. It's the worst time to ask me actually because you know it's so exhausting what we do.
Yeah. Well, you do seem quite calm.
Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, I I I prefer to stay calm. I don't like getting angry. I don't get angry that often, do I?
No. If you did, you it wouldn't be a traditional sort of angry. It would be a very understated kind of [laughter]
um but I can't imagine you ever I think you'll be like Tommy Cooper. You'll die

at your keyboard.
Yeah. Well, my my fancy is to win an award for masters and then to have a brain embolism on stage as Thank you very much.
You're looking at Oussie Osborne last year and [laughter]
um I'm sort of out of question is but it is wonderful to see everyone back together. You do seem to be enjoying it and excited about it and um
um I'm really I've only played it a little bit. I'm excited to play some more. Um and um
and the artwork looks lovely. I hope it does really well for you.
Thank you very much, Chris. And thank you for your lovely questions. We've we've loved talking and reminiscing and um I just hope people find the joy in the game that we all find it.
Brilliant. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Wow. What an absolute privilege. That's it for today's episode of the Game Business Show. We will of course be back with more news, analysis, call interviews like that, and insight in the

days and weeks ahead. If you want to make sure you don't miss anything, head to the gamebus.com, stick in your email, and we'll send you a newsletter every time we have a new thing to talk about. Until next time, thank you for tuning in.