The Xbox handheld is unlikely to do big numbers, but that's not the point

Nintendo Switch 2 will have sold more than 30 million units by the end of this year. So the these aren't competitors to Nintendo and I don't I don't really think this is going to be any different. It'll be a very pricey machine aimed at very high-end gamers. We obviously have tons of experience now from World Assassination and tons of experience how to extend a single player experience and keep giving you know desirable free content also to players. Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show with me, Christopher Drink. We are here at Summer GameFest in Los Angeles to play, see, cover all the video game announcements, speak to games executives. Um, and I'm here joined by my guest host Andy Robinson. Hello, Andy. Hello. How you doing? How are you? Yeah, fancy seeing you here. It's the first time, although just you had a brief appearance in our Switch 2 show, but this is your like It's weird it's taking this long. Full debut. Yeah. I'm not coming off the bench for this one. It's uh it's great. Uh so we're going to be talking about uh some of the the

event itself and what's been going on. We're going to talk about um the Switch 2 uh not the Switch 2, the Xbox ROG Ally uh X handheld product. I may have got those names in the wrong order and uh we'll also have a touch chat about the new James Bond game and uh and possibly might be able to share some switch to sales performance. Um but Andy, what have you made of this week? Has it been it's been a bit quiet? It's it's been a bit bit of a quieter one, I think. Um, I mean obviously, you know, the these showcases can only work with the games that are ready and we know the challenges attached to that these days. Um, that it's it's not always as simple to just go and pluck stuff out of the air, especially when it comes to the inerson section play days. Not a lot of companies are making um kind of preview builds anymore, you know, after E3 going. So, there's that as well. Um, I think uh I mean it's difficult for on the the Summer GameFest side for Jeff Kitty's show being um obviously sandwiched between two platform holders, particularly Xbox, which own so much of

the content now and they're, you know, naturally going to keep for their own show. Um, however, I I think it was actually quite a well- curated show. I think with what they did very well with what they had. Um, I think it was I think we rightly um have kind of criticized some of those shows in the past for having like a lot of sy looking games and you kind of question the curation. Um, but I don't think that was an issue here. I think it was a really good spread of different kinds of games and big games and there was there was a lot of big games, a lot of big interesting games in there. Perhaps not so many of the exciting, you know, reveals that consumers hope for. It's not been a blockbuster event as in like the big AAA sequels we're used to. Resident Evil 9, there you have it, was probably might be the biggest. There was Call of Duty during Xbox's event. Um, but even PlayStation, there was a lot of interesting stuff and stuff that may do very well. And that's the thing with these events, what who knows what the next big game's going to be. We probably did see it. Yeah, I think I think you know what's coming when the um when the the show starts with the uh the spread

the kind of presentation of like, but first indie games are very popular now. You didn't know what they were before. Oh, I see. Yeah, that's what this is going to be. Did that a couple years ago, but he's kind of right. He's kind of right. He's correct. Yeah. I mean, he's obviously trying to educate the the consumer audience about that. You know, that you might not know what these games are, but it might be your new favorite thing in 12 months time. Last last the biggest games of last year was games like Space Marine 2 and Hell Divers 2 and Power World. Power World. And if you'd seen them during a summer showcase of some description, you go that's a bit of a weak one, but they've dominated the year. And but and that's obviously difficult to get that excitement. Play days is a little quieter this year. I was thinking, oh, it's cuz, you know, we're in a different age now. E3, the day E3 is just over there. It used to be, but it used um E3 used to be EA would have 10 games and Activision would have 10 games. Every publisher had a bunch of games. And now we're in an age where they don't have a bunch of games. But actually, every publisher this year is a bit different. You know, take 2K aren't here. They've got Matthew and Borderlands coming up. Sony's got a Death Stranding event here, but there's

no there's no Ghost of Yoai. There's no um Marathon. Uh Sega's here in quite a good way and they've got quite a lot of games coming up. Nintendo Nintendo's one that's notably absent. And I don't just mean like in terms of their presence cuz they haven't really had a presence here, but even during all of these showcases, noticeable, isn't it? That I think I read there was something like it was around 10 Switch 2 games here, you're expecting a lot more, you know, for a console that's just released, you know, during the show basically. Yeah. Um you know, it's probably done very very well, as I'm sure you'll share later. It's I think I mean but but in comparison last year's I thought was the strongest by far. Um you know there were companies there in Los Angeles last year that are not here this year and PlayStation's not here. Yeah. Um I think Square Enix is not here in a real big way. Right. They did announce that multiplayer game. You think Yeah. They they had announcements but I I honestly just think it is just a case of timing. You know the announcement's not there. The games are not ready. Um because you know last year was very very strong. Yeah. I certainly

hope so. Um, the big thing for me, I've actually I got a bit of a hands-on with it was the um the Xbox. I'm going to make sure I get the uh the name of this right because uh it's uh I always get the the name order the order. Xbox Ally, right? Yeah. It's the uh uh Rog Xbox. The ROG Xbox Alley. Yeah. Uh which is basically a PC gaming handheld but with a Windows UI but the wind it goes straight into your games. It's it's console like um I when I went to see Xbox they use those terms. They referred to it as a console a few times. They've got Roblox on it which I think is quite interesting. It's a big popular kids game and a part of my brain just went Xbox actually going for the Switch here. Are they going for that audience? Um but I don't think that's the case. I believe that maybe they're hoping it will break out more than the Steam Deck and the other PC handhelds have done. I've got some data. I've got my little handy laptop here so I make sure I don't miss this. So the normal non Xbox ally devices are are what they call PC gaming handhelds. There are a few of them. The biggest one is Steam Deck. Um, Ampair

estimates that by the end of last year, so the end of 2024, there were 5.3 million of these handhelds in circulation. Um, and 4.1 million of them were the Steam Deck. They expect that to reach 7.2 million by the end of this year, and the install base to be just under 13 million by the end of um, by the end of 2028. Nintendo Switch 2 will have sold more than 13 million units by the end of this year. So, the these aren't competitors to Nintendo, and I don't I don't really think this is going to be any different. It'll be a very pricey machine aimed at very high-end gamers. And I don't believe that the ROG uh the the ROG Xbox ally ROG ROG Xbox Ally X. It's it's a natural proposition for Xbox, isn't it? And what they're doing right now. I mean, I was very happy to see that they've um combined lots of different stores, kind of marketplaces on this. So, obvious um kind of within the Xbox ecosystem. There's Steam games on there and there's I think there's Ubisoft stores on there and and Battle.net and also Roblox is in there which is obviously a place where the biggest games are at the moment. Um but it's

it's um what I found the thing is that even though the audience is small it's super lucrative because it's all about you have these are the most dedicated Xbox gamers. They play a lot of Xbox but they obviously can't play Xbox all the time. They have to walk away from their computer or walk away from their console sometimes. With this this can increase their engagement with their platform. They're also the highest spending players on Xbox. So this will increase their ability to spend more on Xbox. Even if even though the numbers may be small, the actual, you know, impact upon the revenue of Xbox is potentially significant. So it doesn't really matter how popular these devices are. It's more about um the fact that it appeals to the most lucrative of gamers. So it is a big commercial play. I don't think Nintendo's going to be particularly worried, but it it does take away a little about bit of that Switch appeal of being able to play the big games on the go, which obviously Nintendo's hoping to do by having games like Cyber Punk in there, but it is a sort of very different um it is it is a

very specific audience and a lucrative one. One of my favorite games I've seen and admittedly it was before we came out here to LA was uh the James Bond game 007 um first light. I I think it looks fantastic. I'm quite I quite like I interactive. We've been on I've been following their journey and interviewing them when they've opened their studios and all around the world. Well, mostly around Europe. Um, and they've uh they did they signed that partnership with Mind's Eye. They've uh signed that partnership with 007. And now this felt like a moment here in LA in a slightly weird press conference where they um they they you know they talked about Hitman, where they're going with that. He showed him uh co-op Hitman um and they announced irst. I actually caught up with Hack and Abra shortly after 007 First Light and I asked him about the fact that J Hitman is like a live service game. It's a single player game, but the way they've kept updating it with challenges and they've added new things to it and limited time events and all those sort of things has actually created a live service appeal to this game which meant it's actually selling more and more and more and more each and every year. It's been released. It's now on 25 million units. So, considering

James Bond is a little bit more uh a little bit less of a sandbox, more of a linear story, I wanted to I asked him if that's the plan for A7 First Light and this is what he said. We obviously have tons of experience now from World of Assassination and tons of experience how to extend a single player experience and keep giving, you know, desirable free content also to players. So the first objective for us with bond is with 007 first light is to you know just come out with the best possible most impactful journey to the gamers out there. Again without going too much detail you could expect that we'll be doing you know applying some of our learnings from world assassination to to Bond as well. Oh, you shouldn't have. And the thing with Bond is apart from creating these living breathing social spaces as well,

we have really upped, you know, and stealth, we have really evolved our action aspects of our technology and features, seamless combat in and out of ranged and uh and mele. For Hitman, it was interlocked animations. Here is free form and we saw the driving the car in in in the trailer. So, driving different exotic cars and whatnot. That also gives us more challenges to play on to create challenges like you have in Hitman you have these life challenges and whatnot. So uh besides the things that we are able to do in Hitman, we can do more actiony things or uh more uh kinetic experiences, challenges in Bond.

Um yes. So, I mean, he obviously couldn't say too much because the game's not out yet and the focus is on the launch of the game and getting that right. But it does sound like he's looking to create a similar scenario where there's challenges in that game and things that people will do long after release and they keep releasing it. Um, he also talked at one point, not in that clip, but he talked about if we do a sequel, who knows? Um, there obviously he has a similar vision for Bond that they've had for Hitman. Um, uh, what do you think of the game? Do is that does that something appeal to you, that live service single player concept? Um, I mean they kind of compartmentalize uh the the the specific games within the platform, right? So it's it's not kind of like a traditional live service game where it's ever evolving and and perhaps if you it'll be quite jarring if you you kind of disappear for 6 months and go back. They are kind of like specific games within the the world of assassination, right? Um so in that sense I guess it's not too different from what Epic's doing, what Roblox is doing. Um, so yeah, that's that's pretty

exciting if they can, you know, kind of evolve the Bond experience and keep adding kind of new games to that. They're they're pro very very proven developer with an excellent track record of of creating these kinds of experience and and so that comes with a a great um great deal of expectation that they will deliver. Um it's um I I like the look of the game. Um I I think they've tonally they've done a pretty good job. Yeah. Um, and it's also it's it's fantastic to see them kind of like uh keep adding new stuff to to Hitman. And obviously they announced the um co-op mode that they're working on and they they had a Bond crossover with Lashif. Yeah, of course. And and then of you know kind of working on Mind's Eye as well. That's that's the same proposition, right? It's another game that Yes. And and that's that that that's the reason why I do wonder why um IO Interactive partnered with Mind's Eye. um you know the game looks it doesn't it does they don't publish third party games normally um they publish

their own games and but this one it does feel like they you know probably Border Rocket Boys identified IO as a company that that might know a little bit about having a single player game that that can live on in in different ways maybe. Um yeah well I certainly enjoyed I look at that game I certainly enjoyed the press conference it had a certain um E3 vibe to it with dancing light robots and it felt a little bit European as well. Um so um and I always love a bit of Europe in when it comes to this event. We had some from uh people I spoke to who were in the room. They had some teething problems. Yeah, it was a little it was a little bit in in some you know some scheduling issues where people were you know sat around for too long. However, it's it's nice to see an inerson event right and um not many people do that even um during the biggest summer game fest recently where you'll have you know kind of Xbox holding stuff and Ubisoft holding stuff and Square Enix holding stuff. it'd only really be Ubisoft that did an actual live in-person show freestyle that you could go to. So, you know, I I love that they did that. Um I like to support, you know, anyone doing that. It's um Yeah, it's a it's a blast from the past,

right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I think this Summer Game Fest does feel like a step. It's weird. We're 5 years into a console cycle, right? And if you look at previous I don't know, 5 years into a console cycle E3s, I suspect they are a little quieter. Um, I just I just, you know, maybe I'm I'm still holding on to that E3 history, that little um because I very much miss that show. I think it created a lightning rod and, you know, you had Borderlands packs and the Game Awards last year was particularly spectacular. So, there's lots of other points and moments and E3 is no longer that moment. And well, E3 doesn't exist and Summer Game Fest is not the only place. Um, I do hope Nintendo shut up with a direct at some point because it feels like something's missing from Switch. I I suspect that they'll have a direct probably probably sometime this month. Um, you know, the the kind of the lack of announcements is uh certainly pointing towards that, right? I mean, we had the Xbox showcase today and we were expecting a whole roster of Xbox games to be announced to Switch 2 by now. Um, so maybe they're saving that for one of Nintendo's own showcases, which I guess it would make sense if you're adding

those games in an Xbox showcase to that audience. Is that partic, you know, necessarily the right fit? No. And I actually I never really expect I know there's some people speculated there'll be a Switch 2 segment in the Xbox conference, but I'm like that the Switch 2 audience isn't watching. So um and so I don't think that was the best place to do it. But yeah, we're sort of waiting to hear from Nintendo next. They haven't given us insight into their sales performance of the Switch 2. It's a weird thing the Switch 2 cuz it does feel like there's plenty of stock around. I think you made a comment of like one point like there's 12 people. We had 12 there's only about four of us in the room and we all had like three Switch. We have about 12 switches between us consoles for various reasons. So, it's obviously sold very well. We saw lots of pictures of people queuing up. We don't haven't had that for a little while. Um, but I do have a little bit of data. Well, actually, I don't because the data isn't in yet for the UK. I was hoping it would be for this show. It might be in the newsletter. So, um, if you if you're reading the newsletter, the data might be in there. Um, I got a little bit of insight from some of the retailers. I think we're almost well almost certainly this will be in the UK the biggest Nintendo console launch of all time. um and and

by decent margin as well. Um and that is and that will be that's obviously great news for Nintendo and for retail. The other the downside is that it well not the downside but it's worth noting that Switch Nintendo consoles don't sell as strongly in the UK as they do in other markets. And as a result is the actual biggest launch of a games console is the PlayStation 5. I think it did something like 340,000 350,000 units. That's absolutely obscene. and that in its first week and that the PlayStation 5, the Switch 2 has not come close to that. Um, but it's not too surprising. It's worth noting that during the Wii generation, we that generation, you know, the Wii, the Xbox 360, PS3 generation, the Wii was the bestselling console, but not in the UK. That was the um the Xbox 360. The um even the Switch, which has obviously been an absolute dominating console player across the whole world in the last, you know, 8 years in the UK, it trails the PlayStation 4. So Nintendo is it's not that Nintendo doesn't sell at

all in the UK. No, but it's not it's never been their strongest market. I mean, ever go even going back to the early 90s, 80s. It's uh it's it's always been either a PlayStation market or a Sega market predominantly. Yeah. They they used to launch things late. They didn't even have a UK arm until the early naughties and and they used a distributor um the distributor um uh to to distribute all their um uh products, you know. So they've never as a result of that. It's also a very competitive market. Xbox very popular in the UK whereas it's which is basically UK and the US is where Xbox's main markets are and um so it's a very competitive field. So so your point is basically it's not necessarily an ideal comparison point for how it might have done in other territories. I think I think the indicator is if it's done the fact that it hasn't done as it hasn't had a launch as big as the PlayStation 5 in the UK does not mean exactly not the case elsewhere. Yeah. I mean it's it's difficult to gauge. um as you say um we've not really had because of the pandemic there's not really been a console launch where there's been an opportunity for these to see people

queuing up at midnight launches and you know that's very nostalgic while we're being nostalgic um but there's you know anecdotally you see people queuing around the block everywhere at the midnight launches for Switch 2 um they they obviously um talked a lot pre-launch um even before the console was announced about the importance to them of having stock yeah and being ready for launch Um, so it's it's it's difficult to gauge whether the fact that you can I mean I spoke to someone here in LA who went into a shop and bought one this week and they had they had consoles. So I don't think that's necessarily indicative of uh of performance in Japan I imagine. Oh defin it's a problem in Japan. Yes, it's definitely but even but even then um in Japan obviously it's a completely different scenario where there are two versions of the console. there's uh a version that only plays it's region locked effectively only plays Japanese language games and then if you want to play games from other territories you have to buy um uh console direct from Nintendo with their their my Nintendo

store um and I'm sure it's something like £100 more expensive than the other version. So, from what I can see, that version, the really expensive one, you might have an easier ride of getting one if you're Japan-based, but the others are certainly Yeah, they're I've talked on the show for quite a bit. Obviously, I I I revealed that there was not going to be any Switch to review at at launch and and you also confirmed this when when the embargo broke. Were you allowed you're allowed to talk about it? Um, I don't think the lineup's right and I think this is so I'm worried about momentum for Switch 2. Uh there is Mario Kart is obviously a huge game. We've talked about this on the podcast before. It's obviously an absolutely huge game. I've always believed it's everyone's second game. I don't think I don't think people can get that excited for Mario Kart. It's not that it isn't exciting. It's not it's not going to be the most dominant game of the whole generation. I just don't think people rush out. I've got to play Mario Kart day one. Um it's clearly a good game. The reviews seem positive. I mean, I'm I'm a huge Nintendo fan and obviously we're working

uh you know 24/7 here at Summer GameFest. Um but I've had I fought this earlier. I've had a Switch to since the day I flew here and I've barely touched it, you know, partially because I don't have time, but I also don't feel that urge. I need to get back into Mario Kart and go and explore and it's it's not that sort of game. If it was a Zelda or Pokémon or a Mario 3D game, there would be something like that. And I don't I think I think that's missing. I don't know if Donkey Kong is going to be the answer to that. Yeah, I was going to say there's a lot of pressure on on perhaps on that title now, right, to be that experience. Um, coming back to the, you know, kind of speculation of a Nintendo Direct being soon, that game is out in a month and we know very little about it. So, they certainly need to talk about that soon. Yeah. I I would be interested to know how ambitious that is. If it is it I you weren't a fan of the game and we talked this last No, I think a lot of the pressures played it were, you know, kind of a bit skeptical about I mean, obviously whenever whenever you're you're critiquing Nintendo games, you're critiquing them by Nintendo standards.

It's still going to be a fantastic destruction and it wasn't I didn't find it particularly interesting, but I mean I have I have faith it'll be a good game. It's just whether it's going to be that game, the Super Mario Odyssey, you know, your Breath of the Wild. I still think something's missing. Even though they've got enough games to in order to have a game of the month for the rest of the year and they've got a Pokémon game and a Metroid game, I feel the Switch 2 is missing something. And even and I'm not sure Donkey Kong is it. So, I'll be interested to see if they're in the direct. There might be another big Nintendo game. I mean, from from a business perspective, it's going to be a fantastic year for them, right? They're probably it's probably going to be the bestselling console ever. Um the their month their kind of active users is probably going to jump significantly because they've now got two consoles in tandem. a Pokémon game is always a huge huge uh you know hit. Um so you know and they've got a new Mario movie coming up in the spring which I'm sure they'll

have something ready for. Um so I'm I'm pretty sure they're not concerned when the people are still queuing around the block to uh to buy one. I I'll wrap up here but I do want to ask one more question. Have you played anything at Summer Game Fest? You I don't know. You might I have and I cannot talk about it. You can't talk about it. I cannot talk about it unfortunately. Um, but I've I've played some good Oh, what? Actually, there's some I can talk about. I played um the new uh Luminesz game, Lum Arise. Uh it's it's a PlayStation PlayStation PC game, I think, uh by Enhance. So, it's it's effectively the successor to Tetris Effect, which was a very uh you know uh critically wellreceived uh puzzle music kind of fusion game. Um, and effectively this is the the sequel to that um without the Tetris brand and it's it's very very good. For anyone who who likes um Tetris Effect is one of my favorite games of the last 10 years. Um you should look forward to that one for sure. Well, thank you Andy. Thank you for joining us

on the show. That's episode of the Game Business Show. We'll be back later in the week. Actually, we'll be back throughout the week with the live version, the live recordings we did during the game business live, which I haven't done yet. And I'm only I'm only a little bit nervous. I may be a lot nervous. Until then, thank you for tuning in.