Split Fiction’s Josef Fares on Clair Obscur success, AI fears and EA’s reputation

Every single decision taken from Hesa will be based on what we feel great is for the game. We're not like going through data thinking what will sell not. That's not how we do it. There's a lot of great people at EA. They they know how we at Hazite work. They [music] respect it and they let leave us be. Hello and welcome to the game business show with me, Christopher Drake. Now when we launched the game business show, we just missed out on one of the big cool games of last year. a game called Spitfiction developed by Hazelite Studios and published by Electronic Arts as a cooperative multiplayer only game. It's a very emotional title. It's a very cool game and it's sort of it's the it's the follow-up to It Takes Two, which is a game that's always in the charts. Also made by Hazite and before that it was a game called A Way Out from that team as well. Brilliant games. Um the director of those games is a chap called Joseph Ferris. You've probably seen him in the industry. He's very enigmatic. He's very very passionate guy. Um I've always wanted to interview him. never have done and I just missed out on doing it last year, but he was at the Game Awards in December and I was able to catch up with

him. I was able to sit down with him and do a little interview with him and it was a really joyful thing to do. So, check out this interview. Hello and welcome to the show.
Well, thank you.
I've been very eager. I mean, I just I want I Your games are so unique. I love them and they are um I love the fact that this industry is starting to discover this year that and although for you it's been a while they're starting to discover this year that actually
don't follow trends be be try and create something new and different that stands out. You've been doing that since the start. You've been showing that way.
Oh yeah. So I do
since brothers actually. Yes, it's Brothers which 505 and and and I remember back in the day when that comes. Well, actually, I'm going to start by talking about It Takes Two because it's still in the charts,
which I find bonkers. Do you know what? I feel exactly the same. It's pretty crazy. I think till now I think it's like we're reaching like like almost 27 million units sold, which is pretty

insane. I have no idea. Like if you would tell me this would sell this like at this amount of like I I I would not believe you. It's crazy. I I run the European charts and it was in the top 10.
I don't know when we're gritting this out, but it was a couple of weeks ago. It was in the top 10.
It keeps popping back in there.
Would you not Are you not getting annoyed, you know? Stop playing that one.
Move [clears throat] on to Split Fiction.
Well, I'm not going to, you know, without going to to more numbers thing, but Split Fiction is doing very well as well. So, it's not like people are not playing that as well, but but there's something like I don't know. it takes to have reached another level. I don't know. I mean, even a way out has done amazing like over 12 million units which is great. Look, the games we do like I'm I'm surprised because remember in the beginning like not so many people believed in them and there was no market for co-op only blah blah. Now it's the opposite. Now actually I mean we're selling more than you know some of the biggest AAA titles.
How do you find cuz we're talking about the business here. How do you find the fact you are a creative force and you you make all these um incredible dual

gains, but you also run a business and you've got staff and responsibilities. How do you find that?
Well, let me tell you the the actual truth. My COO, Oscar Volante, is the one that takes care of the business. I'm solely focused on the creative side. Great. But let me give you an example actually because I often talk about I mean often talk about the combination because they're not two separate things for me business and creativity. So let me give you an example. the friends pass for instance uh which came actually I just felt that playing I don't know if you know what the friends pass is like you buy you buy one game if nobody knows about it and then you get another one for free so all of that came from from a place where I felt like okay if you're playing together in a couch you shouldn't pay extra if you're playing online with someone that didn't make sense so from that preparation I'm like we got to have something you know that you know you don't have to pay if you're doing it so then we came up with the friends pass and that in itself self became a thing that was actually good for business. So it started from a creative decision and then became a business thing. So I would say every decision every single decision taken

from Hesa will be based on what we feel great is for the game. We're not like going through data thinking what will sell not that's not how we do it. So it's very important for us. With that said however I'm not saying that the business is not important. I think it's it's but it's important to combine them together. But if you lean in too much on either side, like either too much on creativity or too much on business, it's going to be bad for the game. I think you need to find a good combination actually.
Do you find [clears throat] do you find the fact that you've you you've been so successful now, I suspect the budget for your next game could be whatever you want it to be.
Yeah.
Um well, I know that creative inspiration, innovation can come from limitation.
Yes.
Do you do you have to
No. No. I know your question. No, it's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. The thing is like this, there is this incredibly strong passion for what I do. Like I truly just love my team and I just it's it's just a you know Hazel today I I often describe it like a

Formula 1 car. It just runs so smooth. People are so happy. It's just a loving environment there. Like literally uh and there's no pressure. There's just like a just creative for like I often say we [ __ ] [ __ ] up for a reason. and the [ __ ] [ __ ] up mentality without [ __ ] up because I think it's important because we take things to the next level. We I think one of the good things at Tesla we make sure that people like explore you know I often say that I can wake up the creative monster in people. So it's it's a place where you can explore and I think if you are limited and and and because of risk and scared and it's not good for the game. So for us it will always be like that. How whatever the budget is it doesn't matter you know it's always going to be this creative force. With that said obviously there's a responsibility. people need, you know, money to pay the rent and everything. And there's a responsibility of who's paying for the budget to actually deliver the milestone to do a great game to not slack to actually do something really well, you know. So, obviously there's a that is will always be a part

of us, but it will not be based on a decision what game we're doing. And that has been from game one brothers, you know, and I've always been to be honest, I don't, you know, when people say to me it's not going to work, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever." I said, and and I'm not the kind of guy that's going to say like, "What did I tell you? Look at me now." I'm like, "No, I just knew it all the time."
How do you open that creative monster in people? Then what what do you do that other people
keep pushing? Keep pushing and make make sure people stop listening to this and start feeling this. And it's easier said than done because a lot of people are putting a lot of limitations on themselves. And it's mainly solely coming from your mind. So once you stop, you know, once you stop listening to that, once you stop feeling what you're doing, [ __ ] will start happening. And how you do it? Well, you you you you first of all, you like practically, you know, push that person in a nice way, obviously like, "No, not this. Let's do that. That's been done before. Let's try this way. Let's try this." And eventually, they come into this [ __ ] [ __ ] up mentality where they're like, "Okay, there's no limits here." And then you you you you you

make that person feel so confident that there's no limit. And once you do that, again, like people have so much uh possibilities inside you. And that's not even only for creating games in general, I would say. So it's just about like
stop listening to this and and just feel it instead.
Well, yeah. [clears throat] I interestingly I started this um business with Jeff Keley a year ago and we were there so many things in my brain saying don't do this, don't do this. This isn't what people want. This isn't the right thing. But I felt what I was doing was the right thing. So I just persevered with it. And after took us 6 months and I'm like I'm glad I didn't listen to that
little voice in my head. See, and and even if you want the right, then you adjust it. The thing is like people are sometimes very afraid of what could happen, you know. You just have to drop that and just go with it.
That's the important stuff. Don't don't don't fear
uh failing, you know.
No. Well, I I read in an interview with you, this is about how you've improved, that technically you're getting better and better and better with each game technically, and

that's only really works if you keep your team together.
Yes. So I I'm going to read into that that you Haze Light
doesn't have a high staff turnover. Is that is that fair?
No, not not recently, but we we've had it before obviously. I mean during the you know when the gaming industry was kind of a high you know you know period where everybody were throwing money all over. So we lost a couple of people but but at the same time like nothing cuz the culture is so strong at hazite but but the turnover itself it's very low at hazite for sure. Yes.
Why is that? Is it because of that culture that
It's because of that culture. We're a really good company. I mean, we're giving one of the most amazing bonuses I think. And then let me let me tell you, I'm the guy we I think a lot of the revenue is going for the for the for the people working there. Uh people are being, you know, have a lot of freedom being creative and it's it's just in general a very like a
I don't know cool environment to be at, I guess.
How big is Hazel now?
We're around 80 people now. We're not

going to grow. I think it's a good one because now everybody knows each other. It's it's good vibe. It's like it's nice place to be at. I think it's good. You know,
you speak about the importance of game developers having a vision and staying true to it.
But it's always a journey to gain that vision, right? There's there's a it can take failure to get there sometimes. Um and you might have to adapt your ideas. What's your journey? What's your journey like before you get to the point where you know what you're making?
See, I I often give a metaphor of this. you know sometime you hear this like as an artist you know sometimes you feel that your work is [ __ ] then blah blah blah I don't agree with that I think that's something that people are saying just because they've heard it before so what I'm saying is that if you have a vision and a core that you believe in the metaphor I use is a relationship if you have a great relationship you will of course have challenges you will have stuff you have to figure out you will have up and down and so on and so forth but the core of the relationship the love is there the core is great you know you will never doubt that. So saying that our project I never doubt the project but with that said do we have

challenges do we have up and downs do we have major stuff that like how are we going to solve this yes but people often combine those two you know they don't they should go back to the core because that's some there's always that so from day one I truly believe in what we're doing then it's about to like figuring out all the challenges on the way and of course sometimes there's huge challenges uh but with that said like I feel extremely confident of everything we're doing I easily now say that our next game is better than split fiction. So, we are like raising the bar and and I I I can't even explain like I just did an interview and I I didn't even know what the word is like a pressure like I don't even know how to say that word. That's how far away it feels for me, you know, like I mean considering that we've just done a super successful game, you know.
Guess it's like a momentum with you, right?
Yeah, it is. But it's also like it's also just we we really do what we love to do, you know? I mean, we really focus on it. Just try. And I think if you do

it sincerely, it's going to resonate with people.
Yeah. There's that there's that idea, isn't there, that I I you can do things for a job
or you can do things because it's
I always in games journalism when I started up, there was loads of people that used to come up to me and say, I really want to be a games journalist.
And I go, oh, great. What writing do you do? I don't do any writing. So, you don't want to be a games journalist. You just like the idea of being a games journalist. And I guess I'm not sure what how I'm connecting this in my head, but I guess when you're talking about doing things with passion and doing things, you're looking for people that just want to do it. Yeah.
And not necessarily
I can't find the words either. Um, but doing things for a job if I'm think I know what you're saying like doing it from again like using the word passion from a from a place of passion, from a place where you feel it's fun to do what you're doing. I think that's again if you do something gen that you genuinely believe in it will resonate. I I I strongly believe it. I mean it's this is the fourth game I've directed and now we're going into the I mean to

the fifth one and it's always the same thing you know.
But again with that said I'm not saying like I often say the term like the game tells us where it wants to go. It's almost like its own living entity. You just got to follow it and like make sure it's it goes you know the right path. Well, I find fun. It's not fun may not be the right word, but I find it interesting that [clears throat] EA has a reputation, right? He has a reputation of being the big corporate. Yeah. The big corporate. And you're famous for being not that.
Exactly.
Uh what is it about this relationship that seems to have worked?
Here's the thing again, like I think look, you can see the world in two, but either you see the world in the black and white way, which is say, "Oh, people have money." There's a lot of great people at EA. They they know how we at Hazite work. They respect it and they let leave us be. Let's be honest, there's not a publisher in the world that haven't [ __ ] up now and then. Sometimes I can I can feel that EA is getting more [ __ ] than they deserve cuz everybody I mean come on Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, everybody's done

something that's not good. You know what I mean? But for some reason EA has become this bad guy for us. It's a super good collaboration and I'm very open about if it was bad I would have said it in this interview as well. I mean they know it. I'm very very like with no filter. I mean we have people at AEA sitting now and they know they they know I say what I want to say but I have to say like there we have a great relationship and there are some really great people there and at the end of the day you have to look at like this you know people jump around all over you have people from Microsoft get to EA EA get to Sony Nintendo it's just a mix you know it's just like a come on let it go let's focus on making your games however with that said I'm not saying that they haven't done any mistakes like every other publisher but it's about to getting better. The only problem with publishers in general is that when you're a stakeholder company, you do you that's what that's why I will never put hazelite in on on the what it's called state as a state what is it called the when you put it for stakeholders the market where
I'll put on you wouldn't float it on the

market
put it on the market exchange. Yeah.
Yes. Because then you because eventually you you will have to take some stupid decisions just to make this what financial thing or that I don't like. Yeah. that I don't like. That doesn't make sense. Then we lean too much on the business side like I talked before. You need again like a a balance between creativity and and business. And I think you have many many companies that are that I think Nintendo is sometimes doing that correct you know like when they make great games but still but then they do also some stuff that is weird. See what I mean? Like
well yeah they're a little it's a little different in Japan. I I've always quite liked EA Originals from when it was started up, you know, all those years ago and it was very much it felt like I wrote a piece at the time which is like
this is really good. This is what they're doing and this was they've changed the model since then but I thought this was a really fascinating thing. They really wanted to invest in creators. They want to work with fun
people I'm surrounded with with E are gamers that love games. So it's not like you know I'm sitting with corporate people with suits like hey what is going on? Like it's not like that man. Come on.
No they have their games. I mean if if

it was I would be very like no that's not and again people should not worry because Hazard will always do what it wants to do. You're not going to get short of options, are you? Well, it's a tough it's a tough [clears throat] time to work in video games. At the same time, we are seeing these
smalish development team is building distinctive games that are finding millions of players and all that kind of thing,
which I imagine speaks to you and what you're doing is like so I'm interested I'm interested in your general view of the industry, where it's heading and is it a good place? I know you sort of live in your own world maybe in terms of
Yeah, I mean in general I'm very optimistic. I think that we're we are getting better at doing better games. Uh there's of of course a concern, you know, with the future of AI, how that's going to be, how that's going to impact.
Yeah. Uh that could be a potential concern, but I see it more actually it could be a great tool to make, you know, game development faster. Uh cuz it's also hard to ignore it. I think it's very hard to we'll see. I I don't know if if you ask me the same in 5 years, I'll probably answer easier. So, who

knows what happens. But in general, I'm very optimistic. I think uh we have uh we have better developers. We understand more how we make great games and but it's it's also a tougher environment. There's many more games out there. I mean of course you do hear now like considering the success of Expedition for example like the AA games are taking over blah blah blah. But at the same time like I I would not be able to live without a AAA title and I would not I really want to play the blockbuster games like GTA. you can't do GTA for $10 million, you know, obviously. So, we need both. I think the most important is that not to get stuck in ideas like double is a new thing or indie is a new thing or blah blah blah is a new thing. We just need the diversity and respect the diversity. So, I just don't hope I hope that publishers don't just you know look at for instance a game like expedition which has been super success thinking oh double is a new thing let's only do that. I don't believe in that. We need diver because you have a huge amount of double games that came this year that nobody even cared about. So

let's remember that as well, you know,
most AA games don't do anything.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So it's easy that to get this idea, but look at this indie titles. They're doing so well, but you know, I can tell you like 10 games are not doing done well.
I think what we're seeing particularly in the market at the moment that playing it safe is the opposite of safe, right? It's a dangerous thing to do. You've got to try and
innovate. You've got to be different. You've got to take bold steps. You've got to believe in your visions. Yes. And I think in a way that's easier to do at double A level and obviously very easy to do at India level but it's high certain bar
than it is at AAA level
100%.
But I agree with you. I think we want all three options, right? And
but here's the thing. I would argue that actually Naughty Dog in a sense is like pushing the envelope of in innovation with a AAA budget. I would argue Rockstar is doing it or Nintendo most of the time is doing it. So again, you can do a big AAA title, but also take, you know, innovative uh risks. So it is

there. Not everybody, but it is there. But of course, there's a little bit like once you go over $100 million budget, you're you're going to be like, okay, [ __ ] there's a lot of money on the table. People are more, you know, scared. So it's understandable. But it's proven that you can do it. Also, Naughty Dog is a great example. And Santa Monica as well. Haze Lights games are unique. Oh god, losing my voice is awful. Haze Light games are unique. You've basically created you've made you've mastered your own genre, right?
Yeah. In a sense. Yeah. Yeah. We've kind of like the co-op cuz some sometimes I hear people say that we were brought back the space in a sense we have but the co-op only written
it's different. It is different.
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That's that's what I keep [clears throat] telling people like it's it's done differently. It's written designed directly.
I grew up in the '9s with um multi split screen multiplayer. It's different from the drop in and drop out thing and that.
Yes, for sure. For sure.
It's um [clears throat] um do you think there are things that the industry can learn from you?
I I hope like look look what I want Hazite to be like if if I would talk

about legacy or something is that Hazite would be part of pushing the creative like boundaries of the industry and I think we're we're we're on the good path. Like Hazite is today a very respected studio that people look up to and get inspired from. But but I do hope the key thing is to keep [ __ ] [ __ ] up. Like keep [ __ ] [ __ ] [clears throat] up. And I mean with that is like keep pushing the creative boundaries. Uh and I just hope that people have, you know, get bigger beliefs in themselves and do what they really dream of. You know,
I'm going to go something you said earlier check my thought. You're talking about AI [clears throat] and people talking about AI and speeding up game development. Oh dear. Speaking of game development, um people talk about AI in terms of speeding up game development, but it's also being used by publishers, developers in terms of gameplay. I just saw the Ubisoft
teammates demo, which is they're like MPCs, but
they react what you say. They they're not scripted. They're responsive.
I don't know why you talking about that maybe. I wonder if you could do that in

your point.
Yeah. Here's the thing. Let's not forget we have been working with AI for a long time in game development. We've been using you know the problem is the generative AI you know but we have been using AI for a long time in industry and again like if if it's if it's helpful with a tool to get your vision out there I don't see the reason why we shouldn't look into it at least you know but I think it's the generative AI that people are a bit like but I
I don't know it's really hard to answer by because it's you know if you look at if you look at me journey for instance like how if you look at when it came it was so impressive and Look at 5 years later, it's pretty much like the the bar hasn't gone up so much. So, we don't know. Maybe like a this is the limit of I mean obviously it's going to get better but it takes time for it like a you see now you know someone generating a game and say oh look what happened in 5 years who knows in 5 years maybe it's going to be like the same evolution of mid journey like not so much better you know what I mean like that you can generate something but you can't do anything in it you know and at the end

of the day you still need someone you know that has a vision or a clear idea what game it is so I I don't I don't see AI taking it over totally Like I don't but it's really hard to answer like it's really hard because who knows what happens in the future.
I'll ask one more question. What is left for you to reach for? What keeps you motivated? Oh is there's so much our industry is extremely young like let's look at the movies like it's been what is it 125 I mean if you look at games what is it I mean to be honest like I count the game what is it like from 80s7s or something. So we haven't been going for a there's so much you know potential in how to tell a story, how to find new mechanics, how to find new game genres, how to find new way of making new games. So exciting. You know there's I mean I won't talk about the future of Hazelite but I mean obviously co-op will always be part of our DNA because we're the best in the world at right now. I would argue

but I would not be surprised what happens in the future cuz uh you know I might high.
Oh great.
Who knows?
Well thank you Jason. Good to be here, man.
That's it for today's episode of the Game Business Show. We will be back, of course, in the days, weeks, and months ahead with more news, more analysis, and more interviews. If you want to make sure you don't miss any of our updates, head to the gamebus.com, stick your email in, and subscribe to our newsletter. Until then though, thank you for tuning in. If you could be in charge of any other video game company, it could be or the creative director of any video other video game company, where would you be?
It's very hard not to say Nintendo actually. I would love to do a Super Mario again. That would be a dream come true. Full creative control.
Oh, what is the greatest album of all time?
I'm not so much a music guy to be honest. Classic or or or or movie score?
Well, you're a movie guy, so ask this question instead then. What is the greatest movie of all time?
I always say it's hard to find one movie, but one of my favorite directors of all time is Stanley Kubri. But here,

let me give you some movies to get you like what kind of movies I like. I like Barry Lindon, ET, Terminator 2, PlayStation, Xbox, PC, or Nintendo.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of console. If I had to choose one today, it would definitely be PlayStation. It has the most innovation and the most IPs that I find really great.
And what one piece of advice do you give to aspiring game developers? Please, please just follow your stomach and start believing in yourself and buy some stuff from, I don't know, from Epic Store and start building your like there's so much possibility of making your own vision come to life.