Kelly Kang’s Secret Sauce To Monetise Your Game Like A Boss

[Music] hello world it's the pocketgamer.biz podcast I'm your host Peggy on salt Brian Bago doing amazing things as you would expect from my co-host and we're doing amazing things on this show because we're going to look at another side another facet of this multifaceted game gaming industry admon right doing admon right is more important than ever but you have to do it without breaking your game so it's tough we need a sharpa we need someone who's going to guide us someone who's been there done that and have seen it from both sides well if they have seen it from all sides that's a bigger plus and that's what we have with my guest she has done it she is senior director ad monetization and Partnerships at pinkel United but in addition there's a lot of other hats

she's had her colleagues call her out as a master at monetizing games through a broad range of advertising strategies so she loves formats new formats she loves techniques new is exciting and that's why I'm so excited to have you Kelly K it has been a while yeah it has been a while and I definitely have missed you I feel like we need more of this so yeah it's been great yeah it's an encore almost when was the last time we chatted it's also a few years back and so much has happened in your world yes it has it's a NeverEnding world it's just just keeps going and going on when I just feel like I can breathe for a second there's something new so I am excited to talk about it all today so it's quite a track record I looked at what you've been doing where you come from director of admon obviously at pixel United before that big fish before that glue

mobile before that Zinga so quite the top names some tough jobs as well you were supporting brand sales I was reading what you what don't you do I think is the bigger question what's the biggest part of your job you know you have to own lead rewarded campaigns support brand sales build teams what's the one part of your job that you didn't expect you'd have to do Kelly well to be honest the one major part is I actually didn't imagine that I had to make presentation deck all the time I thought that was never on my job requirement that was never on my anything but I think being on the admon a lot of people kind of look at our same thing as a UA manager admon just same thing on a different side but little more different as in terms of we actually need to work with the internal game teams including the external ad vendors at networks and all of that so that requires a lot of

the deck making so I'll going back to it one I didn't expect is making decks every day every single day I'll say half of my job is making decks so what are you doing you're like presenting to the internal team and external Partners you're just like saying this is my strategy this is what I'm doing let me show you so we're all on the same page is that what it's about yes that is definitely a big part of it I always I I don't like the uh term sales but I call myself inter sales so when I when we work with Adon team works with external vendors or ad networks outside of you know bringing in all these great advertisers internally we actually have to sell it to the game team because we as a Adon team don't own any of the games what we do is we bring all this great information from externally like ad networks know pitas with all this great ad format advertisers are coming in we now have to do the same we have to PIV that into our own internal deck and every game focuses

on different things so we have to make a separate deck for each game how they're focusing on it for the one ad format that at Network just told us about so we are kind of pitching internally going every game team saying look at this new thing we are kind of internal sales pitching it to them uh this is great but also it comes with the three Monon of work so can we put it on here and here looking at your road map so it's kind of like internal pitching internal sales and I've heard this stories you know I mean they're great ad formats I I love some of the cooler ones you know I was a great fan of uh the the scrollable ads when they first started um and that was in in publishing publishing so it was Publishers it was the The New York Times and others that did that but you know this is publishing and you have to embrace new ad experiences and they were they were cool yeah difficult because we weren't quite yet responsive but very cool ad formats is it really such a

stretch or do you find that the internal teams are like you know what we do have to get more out of our game so we are going to reconstruct rework think this through so that your ad format that you're so excited about that you can definitely sell can fit in the game I want to say 5050 but the reality is 8020 80 meaning they're not going to buy it so it's only about 20% they'll buy it that's only if I truly believe in this ad format and that I could sell it internally that's 20% that PE game teams will buy it so what is it Kelly is it just like it's just heavy lifting I mean you would imagine wouldn't it be possible if the game is solid that you could just say look you know can't we can't we develop this can't we put in some no code or something and just do this really fast and do it a little bit less yeah I'm 100% with you on it I think that's what

we should do and how we should do it but I think the major thing is like you said is the time constraint resource um and going back to every game even though it looks like there's a live Ops coming out like in weekly on the weekend there's cool this you know event that they're doing liveops that takes a lot on the game team's development cycle so you know first to do that Weekly you know that's already done in a weekly so road maps already full for a year and a half in the future so now we are trying to squeeze it in there say give us two weeks on here but it's not just that two weeks I mean I always pitch it so hopefully my game team's not listening I always say two weeks but you know that's just integration after that it's like we have to QA it it's just going of break the other stuff because we never done this ad format and how our users you know kind of reacting to it so there's a lot more goes into it so I think that's the one side that at networks and outside people don't see it is internally admont is how it's getting

integrated and you know that why is it so hard to sell or get integrated new adformat is because we have a lot of people to sell it to thinking through the business model and now that we're more focused on midterm and long-term and you know when LTV really truly matters um you're thinking about how do I get the most out of my audience and if you do it properly more and more Publishers are telling me at events it's like you know yeah we we used to think think there was a problem with the game experience but do it right it's not interruptive do it right it's going to be fine and do it right we're all going to make money because isn't that what it's about it's about driving revenue and being able to forecast with some certainty what's going to happen to your studio in the future I 100% agree I think doing it right is a hard part um and that's when when people talk about oh I Kelly could be more transparent I'm more d i I think I'm a lot of direct so

I like to kind of give them all the pros and cons before I we start integrating so I'll tell the game teams hey 100% fully transparent here's a you know all of this but cons can be this so you do have to look at it both ways but I do think that because it's not common practice in the adma meaning we like to push for hey this is a great next new thing but we don't really talk about the negative side of it so a lot of people have hard time kind of believing in like well other people say this is a great thing I'm like it could be a great thing but I can guarantee you that uh so that's like kind of one thing you know we continue have to work with so and kind of going back to part part of my admon job is partnership relationship building I have to build a relationship with the game team part partnership with the game team so that they know that whatever I say is actually it's not false I'm just literally telling you how it is um so yeah building that relationship goes back to how can we get

the new format in there so it all takes so going back to a cycle of it takes more than a year I would like to say hey within 3 month with the new person I can get it in there no it's it's taking a while to get to that point how do you do that Kelly I mean I know you personally so I can vouch that you are just a yeah you have an an aura you are a positive person you could convince me to do things if I hung out with you I could totally see it how do you convince your teams I think it's from the genuine meaning I that's one of the reason why if you look at my you know I'm currently in my I'm at pixel United if you look at all of our games I don't push for anything that I don't believe in or trust in U meaning there's all these new ad formats coming out and all these Publishers developer like to kind of try that out because it's new I I will love to say yes I will push my internal team to do that but I don't because I don't believe in it so I think honesty goes in

a long way so I'll basically tell them hey here's a great business case do I believe in it no but I think you should try if you want your game to succeed one day but I'll be very clear and up front to them so that's one thing is I think people will make you know understand that you know she will come to me with the business opportunity if she doesn't believe she'll say how it is so I still don't believe in a lot of like force ad forceful ad here and there I think they could be done very very minimally uh because I play a lot of game mobile games and I get very annoyed so I coming from just a I guess the first person experience um and I make sure my game team knows that or everyone knows that so you obviously are so embedded in this Kelly could you without name and blame it's just important to understand like which ad formats you're not so excited about or which ones that you don't see um have lived up to the

promise I mean I remember big deal about playable I'm hearing a lot about audio and others there you know and then there's I was just reading the other day they all have to be native now we have to have native looking ads for our games what's what what are your thoughts there are there some formats or some techniques that stand out where you're like yep 2024 and Beyond if you can't do anything else do this there one thing I didn't expect to say say it but 2024 if it cannot if you can only try one thing or retry one thing I'll say off for w I know I know this doesn't come in that way U we we'll all kind of talking about off for is so 10 years ago 20 years ago I am not really sure how long but it's very long time ago but I would like to say it's back it's coming back given that um offer wall is back here to use it and kind of going back to a little bit of your question is I heard

of all this different type of AD units like a audio of all this native and all of we had native before um is coming back again I am I'm sure it will fit great in certain type of games or apps or kind of you know webs but I am quite not sure there isn't enough data I'm very data driven person uh there isn't enough data to kind of go about it so I'm going to wait a little bit more for the geta data to gather up but until then I know for a fact that offerall works so I'm going back to that um and again it is a very very old for a mess so I know people might think oh yeah why are you going back to that how does this work let me tell it's not just me it's just in a publisher world right now we are going back to that so if you see all this oper allall I'm not even sure if actually the new adma managers know what offeror is cuz they only heard of the r video inner Cal so off forall is let me tell you

guys it's been 20 years 10 years again uh it's a old format but user get to actually scroll down and they will kind of see what it is and we are not forcing them to do anything users are choosing what they want on their own so we kind of want to give them give users more uh Freedom hey you want to pick something all out of all of this you go ahead if not scroll through it don't do it so we're giving them more options and with all this kind of privacy changes this doesn't get impacted uh because we're not actually targeting the users uh so this is a great way of kind of going back to it so if you haven't tried I will say give it a try this year privacy doesn't play a role here it's just sort of like yeah bubbling things up it helps with discoverability I remember first time around it really helped if you were doing sort of your in-house ads for for games in your portfolio and in your family is that still the same way in

sort of offer wall you know yeah reboot or is it a different offer wall because first time around it was more like I've got a lot of games I'll just bring people to all the games I have always got to be careful you're not showing competitor games but maybe that's not so important anymore because now we're just sort of happy to monetize I don't know what's different Kelly about the offer wall this time around that it has you so enthusiastic I think like you say it's offeral 2.0 so it's a little enhanced and better version the first Go Round We definitely use it more of an in-house we already have 10 games let's bring them to the other different game to kind of go circle around within our Network these days we use it more of a 99% in a different way so meaning hey there's a lot more on the offer wall you know wall of all these things there's a lot more surveys there's a lot more you know great way to Brands to get in there saying hey sign up for our Olay sign up for our Starbucks I know for ABC D you

know e so it kind of has all this thing a different way of Our Brands to kind of get in there if not some of the other games like competitor as yes we don't like them but we do see we are always kind of tracking our users what they're doing after or kind of just looking at are they coming back what's the turn like they actually do come back uh so I think they're downloading they're you know using all of that to get coins within our game so and we that whatever currency we have within our game so think of it as a users are using it so that they can play our game longer uh they want this more currency they want more of this what we have internally so I'll take that as a good thing um and I'll say more than 50 60% is All Brands now within offer wall so that's one of the reason why I love Al wall um you do Partnerships you do them well you have brands your offer wall surveys are very

interesting too because I'm sure surveys Brands want to understand you know what do you think of product X or you know would you switch to product y so there's a lot coming together but the brands are not there maybe in pixel uni because you're there fine but everywhere else they seem a little slow to the party what's about the disconnect here can we how do you explain that the eyeballs are there and the brands are are slow I think that's a good question I actually did about more than a year of to work kind of going meeting all these agencies and Brands to trying to understand why they are not spending on mobile games or mobile itself um and what the hesitation is a lot of the feedback I got was they think of our mobile as a very different mobile they think it's a black box we don't know all this you know they also think well I don't know where my ad going you know what if you put my ads or

my brand next to something that I don't want and so I was trying to educate them that it's it's not that anymore maybe it was that um 10 years ago five years ago but it's no longer that you get to keep where you want it to be um me you get to pick you know user segmentation as well as you wish or you will know exactly where your ads are and the second thing was is a visibility what we don't need any downloads most of them just want like the view viewability um and we say we can actually track that you can say 75% of 75% to 100% you can you know Target of of those so a lot of things were basically very they have a different mindset of what mobile is or currently is so they know what mobile was uh but they don't know where mobile is now um and and as we are very the mobile industry is a very fast uh industry so I think kind of keeping them up to date which will will take a while while cuz when I talked to them about a

year ago right now it's not the same as a year ago so now I got to go talk to them again so I think that kind of is going around the circle so somebody has to consistently be on top of them and I think another thing is they are not familiar with all the matrixes that we are currently using that Mobile's using so they think it's a some of them think it's a madeup metrix never heard of it it doesn't exist and we're I'm basically saying No this is how you define it and so we are looking at two different few points of it um and I think you mentioned it in the beginning is like like what they are talking about is hey they don't know where this is going is all kind of always comes back to it uh they think it's a black box so I think we have to get out there saying it's not a black box you can peek and choose um but yeah that's the hard part and I think the relationship component getting people's attention you know Brand's attention agency attention it's not a given so is it uh go to the right parties go to can are we all are is that

what happens I mean how do you get their attention how do you get them to listen and it starts with that opportunity and then you build on top of that but what what are some tricks here because you know I I was chatting with some people and it was it's it's sometimes not The Usual Suspects in terms of technique and tactics yeah I think that is true um I tried to going to the conference is um the one thing is at conferences they have they're there because they want to get something out of it so we won't get much of chance to talk to them because they have a whole list of what they want to do so conference is I think great way to see them meet them kind of you know hey this is my face kind of you know curing them your face but it's not too much of a deeper level and like like you just mentioned it's not parties that's where you actually connect with them obviously don't talk about work when you're there guys so we're kind of more

kind of building the relationship at the parties you know just kind of casually just be yourself and kind of get to know that person and then I will say it takes a bit again all the relationship partnership is not a one two month it's about three to a year I will say to build that partnership relationship yeah um yeah so you go to those parties you get you get to know the person uh before you try to pitch sell or trying to convince them you want to you want to get you want to understand what they do uh what their issues are first before you start talking about yours so I say listening it's very important Al so before you kind of talk about yours just listen what they think of it why they think of it the way it is and and then you can kind of go from there is in terms of what you think or what tell them how the mobile is now versus what they think of it is so yeah going back to I think party is a great example um I thought it was my secret uh Little Secret Sauce is

I know I'm always in a lot of the conferences but I'm also at a lot of the parties uh because that actually works um that's a great way to kind of meet people and parties at which events I'm just curious because I was thinking can I wasn't there and everyone's like oh oh next year you got to be there I'm like okay next year I'm there I get it um but there are others to go to as well where Brands congregate I used to be on the board of the mobile marketing Association so used to be you know let's all do uh the mobile marketing Association events that you could get into right where do because gamer gaming companies aren't the brand uh realm so they're different shows they're different ecosystems where do you go a lot of the agency Brands all so first thing I'm sure most of people know but for some people that don't know is Brands when you say Brands we don't talk to Brands directly 99% of the time we talk to agencies

because Brands go through agencies to buy it uh brands are more likely think think of it as they don't trust anyone they will trust their own agencies only so what you want to do is find out what agency is doing what brands or who owns what brands so that's one thing that you want to kind of start with next thing is so going to all this where do agencies go do they go to all these um conferences so they have their own conferences so I will say the parties or bars near there at that the conference night is the best is the party where it is most of the people all go to the same area same bar same partying uh they tend to op out of all these official parties just because they think it's too official their work is already done so that's kind of one thing to kind of think about is hey is it's theu natural way of meeting people U going back to it

is yes I Kent definitely is a great party um but you want to go where more agencies are at if you want to get to know Brands rather than Mobile gaming this mobile uh conferences that's one way to connect with them but you also have to sort of yeah you have to bring value is what I'm hearing more and more even if it's just to the agency not you know going directly to the brands as you said but you know if it's a plus because if you can show that you share their sentiment that you also frown on fake ads which is very controversial in the industry currently it's like oh we don't need to call them that they're just you know it's a it's a it's an ice breaker it's not a fake ad um and the other thing is of course consent you know have your cmps it's a bonus but then there's the upside and the downside but I have heard people having great great great experiences and and and making more

generating more revenues because they are doing what's right what what do how do you see this and and what are your experiences have you seen that that's what the agencies are asking for actually that is what they want is I know that is a really big topic the fake ass or non fake ass whatever you want to call it that is a big topic but but they do callif fake just to be not mobile but agencies do call it fake ass and that's one of their reason is this is one of the reason why I cannot trust mobile because you guys make fake ass you guys make something that's not there U so it goes on and on from there uh but I will say yes I am 7030 on the topic 70 I kind of align with where the brands are at where the agency is at 30% I can see it on from the other side as well where we don't have to call it that maybe there's a

better term for it um and going back to the CMP yes Brands and agencies all want that they want everything more just protective whatever user they want to give any options whatever you know options we can give to users because that's what they believe in and that's what they think is fair um so I do believe in it and I heard great things about CMP uh result I personally tested um and then it is great so far I cannot say I monit all of it and all of the apps just because I'm sure you'll hear the other side is it's a lot of work it's not a one day one week kind of work so it is bit of a work so that's taking some time but you know when that's all done and done I will say I think CMP is great I think we should definitely I I know a lot of the conflict back and forth is basically well we are only giving to certain part we are not needed

maybe we'll just turn off ads in that area so we don't have to do it it's the quick solution for it but in the long run is that really helpful I mean I think that's great for a short term uh you don't have to integrate it you don't have to put any time into it same thing for any other privacy stuff where whenever we get you know mobile industry we get a lot of privacy um updates I will say it's a great short term just not to do it but in a meid to long term I will say that's going to negatively like right now I know it's hard but I think it's better to get ahead of it and then get it integrated and you know in that way your users feel safer and now you could actually um have and get more attractions from the brand or agencies Brands as well so I'll would say it's it's a twof far it's a half win and a win or half it's only half inches because you do have to integrate it it's a lot of work I I very well aware of that it's inescapable at some point this is

going to be the way you do business and do you want to be doing it under pressure under time pressure maybe also with shifts in your team and talent that you can't dedicate to testing cmps maybe there's another thing coming down the pike and you'll need to dedicate to that what is your experience with the CMP I'm hearing a lot about you have to be very very smart to get consent and there's a lot of testing a lot of thoughts there um you said yourself you've done some tests you've seen an increase in Revenue so players Will consent if you do it right what have you learned or what can you share because I'm sure some of it's your secret sauce Kelly but maybe at a higher level a way to get and ensure that you have consent but you're not uh dedicating so much resource to it that at the end of the day the numbers just don't Jive I think

that's a good question that's something that we talked about a lot internally as well is one thing I believe in testing meaning I believe in different type of users on each app so even if you hear that hey other company did this so we're gonna maybe go slightly about the same way as what they've done um I would say no TR I know it's a lot try it try it test it out or test out the different messaging test out the different slightly different um Native format or test out what you can but like P mention I like you mention please don't over tested that's one thing I would like to say is we is in Mobile gaming or in a mobile just generally we like to complicated sometimes so we like to put it it could be a two test three test but now we ended up being with 12 different variants and now everyone wants to test that they're like it's different though this and that from uh it's not and it's actually complicating users meaning you

can be testing different type of little bit of different square one one more different uh so we like to test a lot of things as in this industry uh but please don't over over test it over complicate things I will say test it with a I don't know simple mindset so have like you know I will say probably two different messaging or if you want to test out the different type of creative feel free to do it but but definitely don't bring in this 10 different ideas or that we have to t you know test out this 10 different things and what we actually what you'll hear from the user is users talk to each other within the same game they have their own like a forums they have their own Facebook pages they have their own Discord Channel they'll go somewhere and talk to each other and they'll basically say hey I got this and did you get this and other person's like no I didn't get it I got this thing so they do share by seeing from my firsthand experience so that that's the one thing you want to come back to is don't over complicated

and don't over test but please do test as in terms of just a simple mindset as it just so you can say I've tested it and this is a better result than that but yeah I I don't recommend testing 10 different ways brings me to an interesting aspect of your job which is what is your job right because it has changed and I was uh chatting with some people and they they're like and they are admon managers so I went to an event it was an admon day um at games forum and it was like okay so uh it feels a little bit these days like it did for the UA managers there was a time for UA where it was like okay we've got AI we're set do we need a UA manager what does a UA manager really do where does he she bring value and they're like it feels like that in the admon space because the craft of you know figuring out the water fall um that's not what we

need right now we need other powers other talents in in an admon manager so what is it that you do and where do you feel the craft where is the fun and the the testing and the tinkering because yeah waterfall's gone yeah I think that's a perfect question because we get that a lot basically from gaming people or or or just engineer saying hey us should talk about waterfall you know changing waterfall working on waterfall but we implemented in a p beting or all of those things so you don't do waterfall so what do you do all day so we get that a lot what do you do all day you know very candid we get that a lot um so I I am ready for this answer so one thing is I think we kind of talked about it throughout the you know whole interview today is the partnership relationship aspect of it you cannot put that in a AI you cannot put that in a an automated system you need to build that

trust and that takes a human being to do that so I'll say that portion of a partnership level part partnership level I need my team to kind of step up and be there dayto day kind of building their relationship and a lot of the testing as uh testing ideas are if you as the AI if you ask the anything to kind of do it done there's a lot more they like to make it a little more complicated than it is so we also want to start with the basics first so you know when we do testing stuff we need our human to be hey this is the behavior um like I mentioned earlier not all apps are the same even though you're in same genre you have a different type of users so even though we have same type of game we have to test it out differently and we know our users uh this game will behave certain way other game behave certain way so we'll test based on kind of ping based on our user type La lastly and there's a lot more more is Ed quality I know this is a big big topic but very

big topic uh but Ed quality there is a lot of you know AI tool is or kind of stuff that trying to catch up all of it it's not there yet so we do have to manually go check I have my team I I really apologize to my team but I am very I I will say I want ad quality to be not perfect but nearly perfect so because what we show is what you users see so I want our users know that we care what we show and we are not related to all these things that we are showing you all this badass so what that means is even though we have a system we have a tool I also have my managers ad my managers go there manually to kind of check those you know ad quality and yes it is daily all that I'm currently having them do daily um so it is part of that as well is I think one day we can be there one day we'll be there as in 80

90% of the quality will get you know all this an automated all this AI will be able to catch it but we are still very far away from that so all this ad will slip through we only know some of the stuff or proactively we can do it by talking to other adal manager they say hey we saw this ad from this network so now we'll go proactively go block it before it even even happens to us uh so I'll say I all goes back to a partnership relationship and goes back toward something that machine cannot do right now maybe in the future that's a different story uh but for now cannot do I want to stay on what you do also as part of your job because just curious here we are waterfall is gone we're deep into bidding in uper bidding it was supposed to be easier it was supposed to give us efficiencies you were supposed to make money yet we're seeing lower ecpm I mean is

there a a link because there some people say okay it's because we switched to bidding and no floors are set anymore and so it's just that is what it is but again we were chatting before coming up here and in our prep we're like well hey maybe it's just people are watching Netflix so let's not be so hard on ourselves I don't know what's your take I think it's actually both um in the beginning I was one of the person that was super excited about going to inap beaing before we went to inap beaing I was a major supporter saying I don't want my you know team to spend three hours a day you know managing waterfall I think it'll be great but obviously I would I didn't think through because now now the whole thing is We cannot put you know put a floor price so this can mean that can go both ways meaning ad networks could come in higher because they want to beat the other AD networks they can come in higher on their own but the bad thing is what if all ad networks

are basically saying because there's no Flor L coming in a little bit lower and that's what every ad network is doing so I do think that there is that big component of like us going into inap head beaing is impacting our ecpm um also the second thing is I think people are more out there physically versus on their phone and playing or being on the app more uh I mean I myself is is doing I am doing that and my I mean my family is doing that and my friends are doing that so I think it's it kind of proves that also I'm on a lot of the different apps I'm on a lot of the I didn't think that mobile gaming will be a competitor to streaming apps or kind of shopping apps I thought we are completely different like yeah they're all separated but I don't think we are because I'm spending less time on I mean I used to play a lot of games I'm spending a lot less time on games now I actually you know shopping on the apps

I'm actually spending the time watching Netflix watching Paramount watching all of that so yeah I do think it's yeah to your point also with Commerce fascinating isn't it I mean the documentaries I'm seeing about what Commerce apps like T that like activates part of your brain that is the part of your brain that loves the gambling app so or gambling game Social Casino thing so yeah there is competition e-commerce apps got smarter they're using gamification we always said they would and now they are so that's part of it as well I want to wrap up with something we started with your team um and they commend you because I found it in your LinkedIn profile they commend you for being uh let's get it exactly um you are transparent arent and you are realistic

about KP uh kpis and they know what to expect that's part of what makes a great team what about the actual teamwork itself and the talent there what does it take now since the admon job description has evolved what does it take to build that team and to again remain transparent reasonable and think about kpis and be very realistic yeah I mean I will say it definitely has changed I've been managing teams over whatever years uh but in the beginning I was only focusing on I have this job description I'm going to hire this exact person to this to do this job that's how it's been for the first I'll say 10 years of mine when I was managing people uh but now I guess I I have to change along with the industry along with the where we are this time so how is changing is I mean we had

waterfall before but now we don't so now our job discreption for our team has changed as well what that means it's going to continue to change so instead of looking for the right per or specific person for this job I I am more focused on finding the right people oh if you find the right people I think I am pivoting the work around them maybe they're stronger in this one things so maybe you can focus on that versus of all other things that I wanted to focus on other thing is there's going to be there's always so much things to do on our day-to- day uh so I cannot say I want this one person to do these 20 things and they're gonna do this perfectly because I need that person it will never work that way so I'll say focus on people focus on their talent uh make them grow I strongly believe in candid feedback so this could be this could good good or bad but I believe in

great feedback yes Cy feedback so I want to make sure this new new hire or this teammate grows within the company with without the I mean outside of the company as well I support either way I just want more and more educated people within this industry so I want to make sure that you know doesn't matter if they're not within the company in the future I want to make sure this person grows so I'll say I'm focusing more of their Talent they what they're strong in building more around that because those talents are going to be sort of the Timeless part of the team you know if you're curious that's what I always hear curious eager to learn willing to adapt these are things you want to look for this is not a job where you come and you do your job it's certainly not what you expected uh you've been here how long have you been in this by the way Kelly what is it this industry um I'll say I keep saying 10 years but I think it's like 14 13 somewhere on there longer

because I know you for a while as well so you have to evolve you have to grow so we want to wrap it up I could chat for quite a while so here's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna look for you at some event and hang out with you at some party but in the meantime we have to bring this to a close um and we always ask our guests the same thing um in between the the the the streaming and the shopping and all the rest of it we ask your favorite game your favorite game you're currently playing favorite game of all time oh that is hard okay um to start with I have more than 20 games on my phone I'm sure everyone does U and I try to give everyone love but two games I cannot you know delete from my phone that I continue to come back every night or during the day maybe I am I love Candy Crush I'm going back there

I play it every single day I cannot get over it I mean all the new games yeah all the new games I download it and play but my OG heart is going back to the Candy Crush uh and the next thing is I think I do like the puzzle is Royal match I cannot stop playing Royal match um so I am there as well see all of that habit forming Loop and all that stuff that worked that worked because that it is true I mean I go back to them too you want to try other new things but there is something that that it works they they nailed it they nailed the addictive uh habit forming Loop and I'd love to come back to you again sometime Kelly as well it has been delightful it's great to just chat candidly about what your job is what you're doing and how you're making it in this role because uh it is going to be so important going forward I mean I'll ask you as a closing question

um what would you like to say is the mark that admon can leave on a studio to summon our audience who like okay I listen to this I heard it super important but they don't quite always appreciate the value that you add so what would you say to them I don't I'm not really sure cuz I have so many things I want to say so just to kind of summit down to one I'll say just always kind of focus on user I know as an adma we like to make money we like to you know try to get everything every cent out of everyone but focus on user focus on people then it will all come back to you or you will all kind of circle back so don't forget that aspect because I know we always kind of look for other there's so much stuff to do there's so much new stuff but always think about would it be beneficial for user would user wanted or is it something that I wanted personally so I always kind of

think about that in mind is even after 13 14 years that's something I have always have in my mind is would user want this or would they not like it um so can I think about that I will say that's the one major thing that's it that's the Golden Rule and that's the uh the thread that runs through your career and many many more opportunities and positions and things on the horizon Kelly because you're just getting started uh it's a delight to have you thank you again as always um it was great seeing you Peggy and I would love to see you more and more this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games Market in all all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any

suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz for/ podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future