"We didn't believe Space Marine 2 could hit seven million unique players"

The core of our manifesto is we do not design and publish games for everyone. We design and publish games for someone. We all know that the last few years have been very challenging for the industry since it is all over you know the news. But strip out the noise and you will be surprised by many positive realities. Hello and welcome to the game business show with me Christopher Ding. One of the big surprise hits of 2024 was Warhammer 40,000 Space Marine 2, which now boasts over 7 million players, but it was actually one of several big hits for publisher Pull-Up Entertainment, which is a firm that is really focused on building specific games for for certain audiences. The firm has just posted great financial results, so we thought it was worth speaking to the firm's new CEO, Joffrey Sardin, and he's here with us now. Um, I always get the pronunciation wrong. Hello, Joffrey. How welcome to the show.
Thank you, Christopher. You could call me Jeffrey.
Jeffrey asks if that's that's so much

easier.
Yeah. Well, congratulations on the results. Um you must have been feeling pretty pretty good.
Yes. Yes. Yes. It's pretty sane. We just um announced you know the earnings. We post 390 million euros. It's a more than 100% you know more than the previous year. And regarding you know the EBITS the famous you know KPIs to check you know the sanity of of a company we announced 60.3 million more than 112% you know better than the previous record year in 22 23. So yes it's a it's a good year for the company.
You only took over the role as CEO what 3 months ago. How are you finding it? Yes, in fact I joined the company one year and a half but I was you know what we call the deput deputy CEO and I became CEO you know three months ago. I'm a veteran in the industry because I start in the in the video game industry in 98 joining you know Ubisoft. My first

role was to take care about you know the the sales of this great company.
One of the reasons why I was so excited to talk to you obviously it's been a tough year for the video games industry. We talked about it a lot on the show already, but there has been some games that have met with really strong sales, surprisingly strong sales, and you published one of them in in Space Marine 2. Do you think this is a new industry sort of pattern that we're we're seeing emerging? Look uh Chrissy, we all know that the last few years have been very challenging for the industry since it is all over you know the news but strip out the noise and you will be surprised by many positive realities. First of all in fact the industry has not grown over the past few years but it has stabilized at a very high level after years of impressive growth. So the industry remains powerful and it is used to have phases of stabilization before returning

to growth. It is currently impacted by a past wave of of investment. I saw in the your several interviews that you you talk about that uh recently but it had already been the case in the past and it recover each time. So it's now going through an LC phase where projects with limited AOI can can't find financing anymore. This is a necessary process to me get the industry back on a gross trajectory. But there is plenty in fact of games and publisher are generating very LC performance and pull up entertainment and space bar too. We're not alone in having a great year. Look in fact at the the really strong numbers achieved recently by uh for instance our friendship friend Clare obscure expedition monster hunter wilds or elder scroll oblivion they they break records so it's true that there is maybe two

industry within the industry and we could talk about that there is thea which is you know today quite suffering about you know the overinvestments with skyrocket I think costs up to 300 maybe more. I don't want to guess you know the the investment behind GTA 6 but it will be a massive success for sure but there is with on the AAA model there is massive financial risk as well uh with longde cycles we are talking about 5 7 8 10 years sometime so with low agility in fact to find you know the the right audience a low creativity because we are talking about you know franchises on the opposite on the double play or you know indie game there is more agility more resilience we could control the budget there is high creativity to differentiate ourself it's a faster you know time to market between one and two years so um this is a shift in fact we

uh we saw recently you know in the numbers uh the double A and indie market are striving right now
h we are seeing some AAA successes obviously assassin screed did well. You mentioned Monster Hunter Wild that was very AAA I guess. I actually think every sector is slightly challenged but there's actually opportunity in all of them. That's how I've sort of saw it. But you've got a particular use the word uh editorial manifesto or I might use the word content strategy or whatever which is you focusing in on specific games and specific audiences. Where did this concept originate from? When did it start?
Yes. True. Uh in fact first of all maybe to explain you know our positioning and to talk about the manifesto. you are talking about. Um maybe uh we need to go through the question who we are and where do we come from
and it will explain you know our positioning. Pullup Entertainment Group is today a federation of over 600 talented individuals primarily based in

Europe in France in the UK in Germany and in the Netherland. And the group is built on three pillars. The first one and the historical you know core of the group is focus entertainment publishing. This is a well-known you know publishing home behind major successes back in the day such as Farming Simulator, Snowrunner, Alectel uh and more recently with Space Marine 2. So it's it's a pure player in publishing specializing you know in the A andA segment. The second pillar and I think that you met them you know during summer gamefest is domu is a developer publisher focused on independent and retro gaming and is very well known with titles such as streets of rage 4 or a teenage mutant ninja turtle str revenge quite hard to to explain or the iconic you know beat them

up you know um and this pillar is today in the spotlight uh with several releases already announced including Abselum Ninja Gaiden Rageband and Marvel Cosmic Invasion which is also you know set to launch in 2025 on the switch to
I actually played the Marvel game at Summer Game Fest. I want to go back again. I very much up my street. It's a great game. I enjoyed that.
What is your review score?
Well, based on my 15 minutes half an hour of play time. Oh, I don't know. of mine you
I'm famously not a critic. I try not to uh but I'm of of an age where I like to go back but it was I think it's one of the strongest of theu games I've played and they're all really high quality but anyway sorry I didn't mean to interrupt your uh good feedback Mr. I will tell you tell it to the to the team and the surar and I will finish on it. The surf pillar consists on our own studios. There is five studios in house. The first one is a very well-known UK studios called doveetail games. You know

the leader on in trend simulation
based in Chattan near London London
Medway. Yeah.
Yes. The second studio is Dexerting based in Frankfurt. uh they are specializing souls like games with the surge IP. I don't know if you know this this IP
the 1210 studios based in Paris uh which recently launched a demo of its Metroid van called Memories in Orbit during Steam latest summer game fest summer next fest. uh Blackmail Studio, a Dutch studio behind the first person shooter Verdan uh based on the the first worldwide you know battlefield and finally studio a French studio which recently released Metal Slug Tactics published by Dou. So I I thought it was quite important to list all these entities to highlight that what unites them in their focus of highly targeted audiences who

seek for uncompromising game play and complex game mechanics. That's why our manifesto and positioning are the follows. So we are coming to the manifesto you are talking about. Our manifesto is we remain true to what we believe in uncompromising game play. This means prioritizing the gaming experience itself on game mechanics, interaction, freity, fun and the death of actions offer to the player. So the the road to success for us is based on a simple idea. players they are looking for niche and very targeted impactful experiences. So the core of our manifesto is we do not design and produce games for everyone. We we design and publish games for someone and when the execution is right is good at some

point it's end up resonating with many more people. It's happened exactly what's happened you know on space par 2 to be very frank with you Chris we didn't believe in fact at some point before we launched the game that we could eat you know 7 million unique players it was incredible for us and in fact with you know the word of mouth with the execution the perfect execution done by our partner Saber Interactive we ended up in fact to to to expand the audience from the the very uh passionate people on the Warhammer, you know, lore to some people who could be who could enjoy with all the features and the lore of of a space marine.
Yeah, we had Arrowhead on the show few months ago and they've got a similar motto which is a game for everyone is a game for no one or something like that and and they've got that belief where if you make a game an uncompromising game for a specific audience, there's a chance that game can break out. And you

know, he gave examples of like that's what happened with From Softwar's games. That's what happened with Dark Souls, right? It was a game very much made for a very hardcore RPG audience. Now it's a mainstream hit. So it's always fascinating when that happens and I guess that's kind of what happened with Space Marine 2, right?
Exactly. Exactly. And it's a very good example from software is a an example for the company to follow. In fact, they are working very closely with the community in advance doing tons of beta, you know, to be sure that they could eat the heart of their core audience before, you know, thinking about expanding them. So, it's a good example. It's a good mentor for us. You talked about talking with the community. This is the thing that um I don't know we haven't talked about it this much which actually when it comes to games that have a focus whether that's space moon 2 whether that's you know train simulator I know the dovetail folks really well if they work really closely with those communities and because if they know they're making a game only for that audience even if it might break out but you focus on that it makes it a little

easier you know who to market it to you know who to work with it makes it simpler in a way when it obviously you've got to you got to do a good job but in ways it gives a very pointy sort of direction.
True. Not true, Chris. In fact, if we take the the example of dotail games with train sim, we are addressing you know the train simulation game. Two passionate people. Sometimes they know better you know in fact the the environment of what the train you can't imagine the number of interaction the teams got with the community. Sometimes they are yelling after them because the tone the color of the you know the loco is not the right one and so on. So they are becoming part of the team and in fact uh year after year we ask in fact the community to be part of the producing and some of the DLC's we are granting to the community whether it's a paid DLC or a free DLC they are coming

from the community and so there is tons of interaction between those guys who are producing with our tools you know some content for the game itself. So it's a it's not, you know, relation between the publisher and the developer and the community. It's a global one.
To be very frank with you, I discovered that when I joined, you know, this this company, it wasn't the case, you know, in my previous life.
No. Well, no. And I guess that's Well, I spoke to EMU. I you mentioned I did see them at Summer Game Fest. that did play their game um that were showcasing and we talked about cuz they've got they started off basically doing remasters and then they started moving into spiritual successes or full-blown sequels which has given them this sort of fan base I guess which mean that gives them an ability to work with them and build those games to what we're talking about before but it is a big year for them because not only is there you know a big Marvel game and a big sequel to an established franchise they're also doing a new IP which

obviously it will have a retro style to it But it's it's it's a new game. Talk to me about the ambition then formu. What's your um where do you want that to go?
It's true that focuses on resurrecting you know legacy IP faithfully but also innovates with original titles. We'll talk about this one. So to today in fact in the pipeline we already announced from the tu there is several games. The first one is Marvel cosmic evasion. We already uh munched it you know and it will be uh uh launched this year in 2025. We have to be a little bit patient to announce you know the exact exact release date. The Ninja Giden Ridgebond which will be released you know the 31st of July. We launched the demo during the same next fest you know on Steam and it's part of the top 20 demo you know played. So uh it resonate a lot on the

community side but we announced also you know a game called Absolum and I think you are referring to it.
Yeah
it was a showcase during the summer gamefest as well. So it's a it's a first big project with original title for from the and it is the new what we called rogue them up from the team that's been making waves uh since its demo smash onto onto steam during the summer next and I think it was part of the most playable demo during this event. It is a kind of a fusion of beat them up action and roite progression. So it's a very promising you know title. It will be to me in my opinion but don't tell it you know to everybody. It will be I think the the the gem of this portfolio.
So looking forward to to announce you know more on the on this one.
Do you see much growth in this area um in terms of this sort of retro scene?

It's not quite it's more the nostalgic scene whatever whatever term you want to call it. Do you see much growth? It's a it's a trend we are looking you know from especially in in Japan. It's coming from Japan you know with all the initiative coming from Alus you know the the entity from Sega Sami and it's growing up year after year. It's quite solid because it's a kind of a combination between nostalgia on one side but you know using the actual and current you know an so on to to put a lot of fresh you know momentum within the the game play and it is resonating to the audience because we are talking about uncompromising gameplay very frenetic you know game play so so today people are looking for that it's a big se it's a segment antic growth today. That's why we are investing on it.
An area that's challenged but also a huge opportunity is the live service

space and now you already do stuff and you know space mean 2 is a live service game in many ways and obviously train simulator and sort of things but do you need to push further into that world in order to deliver on your on your ambitions? Yes, we think uh strongly uh so you know there is life service it depends on what you are talking about regarding live service
there is on the single player you know it's a it's a DLC and the patches and so on and on the multiplayer service like you know what's on space marine 2 we are talking about you know the same this is you know already the case for pull-up entertainment on on trans sim believe me or not but we already released more than 100 DLC's on trend similar simulator and coming back on what we we discussed before you know a big part of those DLCs are made by the community itself
uh and space marine 2 we are delivering also extra content plan planned for

several years in fact it's it's not it's quite easy to say but to put in place an organization to uh manage the the live service is is quite huge in terms of processing in terms of organization and skills. So we've got with the arrival of a veteran of the industry head of our studio called Amed Bukifa uh and he was previously founder and executive producer at Ivory to I don't know if you know this studio
which yes which create the crew which with the crew is a quintessence of what a live game service is. So he is infusing you know the processes the organization and skills needed to master you know the the life's topic. It's quite important for the group in fact to to be sure that we could um uh we could create this traction and to retain you know our community within within our our content.

It's quite hostile. It's quite a scary little market because it is very hard to break into it. I guess your focus on being on compromising and you don't necessarily need to be Fortnite or whatever to to be successful in this space. True. In fact, we are not comparing with the big the big players. We we want to please, you know, our audience first
and pleasing our audience is to be sure that we could respond to their demand. And don't make me wrong, we won't uh uh put all the live service within all the portfolio. We are choosing you know our battle and today train simulation is something quite important in that way and space baring 2 before we will launch you know space baring 3 because we already announced you know the sequel that's why we want to to propose to the audience before you know space baring 3 will be will be out uh a big bunch of of extra content.
You said you're increasing your focus on owned and co-owned IP. Obviously, we talked about Marvel already and you've

talked about Warhammer 40,000, but which is obviously not owned IP. What does that mean for your license properties? Are you scaling back on those?
Yes. In fact, just to give you um more context, uh out of the 50 projects currently in the pipeline for the coming months and years, 20 will be based on our own and co-own IPS and the rest of the portfolio will consist of titles based on strong license property as we already mentioned on Games Workshop, Marvel, Ki Techno and etc etc as well as original project from third party developers. So it will be a good balance between own con IP and uh licensed IP and original projects.
You've expanded quite a lot. You have quite a lot of different strings to your bow. Are you still looking to acquire and grow particularly after your latest financials? You looking to invest further in studios and teams or because of the way the industry is at the moment

you're you're sort of holding back on that.
In fact we will be a giant Chris. In fact, first we will continue to to focus uh our resources on internal and publishing project. Pull up entertainment is is a new group. So we need to look for you know synergies. But today uh why it's not a priority we continue to review different external opportunities uh in a context where valuation are have decreased materially.
So we very disciplined. um you know uh 20% of my time maybe more sometimes you know is to think about you know the future and so maybe some external opportunities but it's not the biggest priority today. We spoke earlier you you think the industry is in a really relatively good place. Your financial results your reports um uh says the same thing. What makes you so confident the industry is going to start growing again?
You know our positioning is good. uh we we prove that there is there is first of

all you know on the AA indie games market we are addressing offer more depth versus the the AAA segment today and notably on PC where there is more appetite to for discovering new things among a highly passionate and committed audience. The second point is data from steam uh is showing growth for the indic segment since 2023. there is a shift and and third we are very highly selective. Uh this implies our games have a strong personality that's what uh makes them recognizable you know and appealing. Um we saw this year with Space Marine of course but also with games such as Voy Crew or DOA you know it's indie games uh who receiving amazing reception from players and were more successful than anticipated you know we just launched a game called Roadcraft

it's a simulation game uh and it's also outperforming expectation this game there is no comparison there is no competition on this game. We are proposing, you know, something new, fresh and innovative and this is exactly you know the path we want to we want to pave the way on this one and we want to invest on this on this kind of a pattern today. I know that it's early days but you're also looking into film and TV adaptations as well. It does seem like you've got a lot going on, a lot to be thinking about. Where do you see this going? What's your I don't know I I always say I question I often ask on this show is what's your 10 year 5year vision but you don't have to put exact timeline on it. What's your what's your ultimate goal? Yes. In fact within you know the group uh we've got um three people who are expert on on this kind of industry. It's a different industry so we don't have to to be in a hurry. Um today we are

working quite closely with some platform you know uh on several uh IPS internal IPS for sure you know all the narrative one or the most uh uh happening IPS to be to be you know proposed in a series or shows or or film for several you know months we are working on the pltail you know that we already announced few days ago during the Xbox showcase. We uh we announced the the prequel of a pltail called Resonance Pletail Legacy and this game and this franchise is the the best candidate in fact to be a port if I must say you know to be proposed uh as an audiovisisual project. It's not you know our priority could be a very fantastic you know opportunity but it's not a priority first priority within the group. maybe the cherry on the cake. You know,
I'm sort of out of questions. It's great

to see you have this success and I think it is reassuring as an industry to see there are so many companies that are just doing a very good job a very specific thing and finding um um big audiences. We talked a little bit more about film and TV there, but how do you see pull-up in going? What's your what's your what's your vision? What's your plan? What's your ambition? What's your goal? That's the word I'm looking for. Goal. It's uh first of all it's not a question of growing in terms of number of you know creative and so on. uh we want to do uh you know what we we are mastering right we want to do it right uh and uh to to be a a very good specialized in the the simulation jaw first of all simulation for us you know it's a especially in the transport train simulation or the other you know urban transport it's a niche segment where the audience is very keen in fact to talk about you know evolution

and be part of the adventure. So the first thing is to be closer to the audience to be experts in some segment and some niche segment and uh if by case you know the execution is good to expand this segment to another audience. So um we are not running after you know being a big big player. We want to be a good player in our uh own landscape. This is our mission. And the the second thing in terms of creativity you know the team they are looking for you know proposing the best qualitative game as all the studios I'm sure but uh to to do it you know with the common sense that we are not talking to everybody but we are talking to someone and this is quite important to stay uh to stay on this positioning.
Brilliant. We're out of time now, but so, um, thank you, uh, Jeffrey, for joining us today, and good luck with all of the news launches and all the big

games you've got coming up.
Thank you, Chris.
We will be back with more game business newsletters and shows in the coming days. To catch up on our past videos and podcasts, you can find them all at the game.com and on our YouTube channel. To make sure you don't miss any of our work, you can sign up to our newsletter at the business.com. Until next time, thank you for tuning in. What is the first thing you do when you come into work in the morning?
Doing a review of some outlets just to make sure that I've got the latest information. Reading the game business, obviously. Will game streaming ever become a mainstream proposition?
Wow, tough question. I'm positive on this one. So, yes. What is the greatest album of all time?
Yeah, I'm not saying that because you are a British citizen, Chris, but I'm big fan of David Bowie. Ah, so every album,
will Nintendo Switch 2 outperform Nintendo Switch One?
I think so. The first numbers are incredible.

And finally, if you could lead any other games company, which would it be?
I'm a big Nintendo fan to be frank with you. So, after this, I will take my Switch to, you know, playing on on Mario Kart.
Okay. So, would you like to lead Nintendo? No, I need to learn Japanese first. [Music]