Puzzle Monthly #1: Pixel Flow, UA, and the Future of Sort Puzzles

Do you want to you want to say what you think is going to be the next hit? Um No, I don't. [laughter and clears throat] If I knew what the next hit was, I wouldn't tell anybody on this podcast. That's
[laughter]
All right, everyone. Welcome to new podcast called Puzzle Breakers League. I'm here with three puzzle superstars and legends. Want to introduce yourself? I'm a gentleman here and I was once called Puzzle Prince by Mishka. So, I'm just going to roll with it. I'm a gentleman Puzzle Prince. I don't know. I'm I'm David David Nelson and I played a lot of puzzle games and played a lot of poker and read a lot of books. I can be book poker puzzle boy. I'll just be the editor and puzzle queen, I guess. So

We'll be the combo. I don't know what I end up being then. I'll be prince or something. Cool. Okay, so we thought today would be interesting to talk about Pixel Flow but try and do a more like expansive dig into it to dig around the edges and talk about what we think is going to come up. So, Ireland, do you want to start by putting up some data and kind of talking us through like some context? All right, so as you know that we we saw this really big news that Scopely acquired Pixel Flow. We now have a huge unicorn again in Turkey. So, what we see in these charts that they're getting massive downloads but especially massive revenue. So, currently they're getting 800 a day. That's crazy. When I was doing an analysis they were only getting 500 a day. Yeah, yeah, I was going to say. Yeah, and that's just in app purchases, by the way. So, we don't even see any of the other revenue. This is crazy. So, once they were

acquired by Scopely, they're they're getting even massive now. It's interesting that it's flattened off though this year after that like super rise. Everyone got like mega excited and now they've hit a plateau. I wonder I mean, with the acquisition by Scopely one of the things I was thinking was looking at the size of the team because the Kress of Kress of Games when I was looking back at that cuz obviously like everybody knows that's the company where they've kind of like almost like formulated this big hit and I was looking back at that and tiny. It was like six people. Maybe even five. Like one person was hardly there at all. And I was kind of like expecting to see maybe a small team but maybe also a team where it had they'd picked up some real like gaming expertise from around Turkey. But that's really not really the case. Like it seems to be the CEO's that like Kress of was finishing uni and then

started this company and then has picked up like I guess really smart people from around the not always gaming. So, I'm kind of like interested in terms of the fact that they've been able to kind of like get this massive hit but also then get acquired. Like it's obviously more than the game, right? It's the team and the expertise and stuff. So, I'm kind of like interested in what people's thoughts are on that one. Yeah. I actually want to kind of challenge both of you guys on the fact that like this was a I don't like six months kind of success or they didn't have prior expertise because when we look at what Kress of Games have done has done in the past is that they actually developed the second largest game in the Rollic port portfolio. Twisted Tangle is the title that's the team behind like Pixel Flow developed before they became like Loom and

like sold sold their company sold to the game the game to Scopely. So, what they have actually done in the past is kind of the ground works to what they've done with Pixel Flow right now because like they have they have managed to develop a game. The last time I checked, Twisted Tangle had like 25 million dollars in in app purchase revenue. About like 50 million downloads. So, like it's the second largest game in terms of so sorry, third largest game in terms of in app purchase revenue in Rollic's portfolio and second largest game in terms of downloads among their hybrid casual puzzles. I'm using the hybrid casual puzzle kind of caveats here because like Rollic with a hyper casual portfolio like past they have lots of like huge titles with large install bases. But I think Loom Games before they were Loom when they were Kress of Games the like ground works had the reps to be able to do like

have this success with Pixel Flow. So, I don't think it's a six months or like overnight success but they actually had the experience and know-how literally like three five years before now. But I think what's crazy is Twisted Tangle used it a lot of ads inside the game. So, they knew how to make a successful ad heavy game and this is in app purchase heavy hybrid casual game. So, I think it's it's a big shift.
Yeah. I mean, like just just to kind of add add on top of that like the whole hybrid casual puzzle scene that we are talking about have started around like 2023 and they were among the initial games with that hybrid casual puzzle trend. So, I think that's also like when you know how to have a for example have a proper like strong funnel for your hybrid casual puzzle, things get much easier for you playing around like a in app purchase economy and putting it on top of really like strong foundation, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah, that's kind of what I mean is is like I guess that they've they've put the reps in, right? Like Scopely aren't just buying Pixel Flow. They're buying a smart team. I found this kind of quite interesting quote from the CTO. He said this, "At Kress of Games, we're committed to continuously enhancing the gaming experience by utilizing AI and our own developed technologies. Visual visual aesthetics are of utmost importance to us and we provide players with a visually rich and all inspiring atmosphere using cutting edge graphics and animation tools. Player feedback holds significant value to us. By taking every input into consideration, we continue to improve and update the game keeping players excited and engaged with new content, fixes, and innovations." So, what I thought was interesting about that is like obviously buzzword AI, our own developed technologies, right? They're obviously building tools in house to kind of facilitate

the creation of games which really work. Like they've built it's not just the reps and understanding that they've built internally. It sounds like they have their own tools to kind of like make stuff happen which is pretty impressive for a a such a small studio. And then also the visual aesthetics. Visual aesthetics are utmost importance to us which is like I mean, I know I know you'll be into that, David. I know you appreciate the value of kind of a good kind of game loop and strong juicy feedback to players. Yeah, definitely. They do it well in this one also. What do you guys think I know it was interesting when you were talking about um Twisted Tangle, right? Was the was the previous one. And it it's it's interesting the the move from ad to in app because it's in the sort of design of the the levels. I mean the the I mean, I've I've I've played a good amount of Twisted Tangle but it's Twisted Tangle was a pretty frustrating

game where you like and a lot of those kind of like all those ones that did that where you're like undoing things, right? You're like trying to like work it out. And once you get deep into it and you realize you're going to fail, it can be really frustrating. And I wonder why that didn't lead to many in app purchases or if it's just the economy didn't work or like which audience they got. It like looks like a normal puzzle game like a match three. The structure of Pixel Flow which makes it easy to to lends itself to in app purchases. I wonder if you guys think it's Is it a design decision? That's the difference there or is it something else? Like when Twisted Tangle was being developed and published, it was like right at like I said right at the beginning of the hybrid casual puzzle trend where the like lines between hyper casual, hybrid casual, and casual were not so definite or they were still kind of blurry. So during the like zeitgeist let's let's say the soul of that time, they probably moved towards a more ad driven monetization because like it was more favorable probably for them and for

Rollic at that time. But I think right now with the current kind of like best practices and the market trends, I think it is like obvious that it's more favorable if you start right from the get go. If you start with a more like in app purchase heavy plan for your game's like success and a long term kind of sustainability because like CPIs from not like CPIs currently are probably higher than what they were like three three years ago. So, I think that like the effect of the trends and the current market conditions have a huge impact on that decision. Yeah, and also I think Rollic's position as you said, they were doing, you know, hyper casual games or you know, you pretty ad driven games. So, I think that also affected what they were building. But I think for sure they knew how to make a successful puzzle game. So, I think they're they have a really good understanding as in the category, I would say.
I I it's a product thing. I don't think it's got anything to do with like strategy or anything like that. I think

some some puzzles the way the puzzle works, the purchasing like a fail I mean, a match three is perfect example of it. Match three, you get to the end and it kind of feels like you could have won if you just got lucky, but you kind of got unlucky, whatever, and then you spend the the coins to to pass it. Um and I mean, for a long time and we don't need to derail into the the whole like merge genre, but like you know, merge two but for a long time we didn't know if there was going to be any really good way to monetize it. The play was really addictive, but it didn't have a very good way to end like have an end fail state that was obvious for monetization. And I mean, to me it's actually a design decision. The design in in um Twisted Tangle, it's much more frustrating when you play it and like and people I think want to complete the puzzles, so it becomes very like puzzly in nature. And because it's so puzzly, it's doesn't have like lend itself to an easy last like purchase with coins. I I'm not sure it's like if they just

added battle pass, they would have had an in-app currency or purchase I mean, a purchase economy. I don't think that's it. I think it's got to do with the problem and design of it. Whereas Pixel Flow for me is a lot more like match three feeling where I play it casually and if I fail, I might just not want to play the level again. Like yeah, yeah, I could go back and do it, but it's fine. I just got it was dumb. I shouldn't have done that. Ash, like I'll just I'll just buy it by five more three more slots there. So, I think it lends itself to to in-app purchases. But I mean, I'm surprised at how much. If you'd asked me to predict would this game be heavily ad or you know, what would it be like, I wouldn't have predicted that it would have been heavily in-app. And I think that's something that everybody is making puzzles should reflect on. Like why does in-app purchase work in this one? And why has it not worked in some of the other ones? Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think one of the other things I think is which is really nice about Pixel Flow is it uses the tray like the tray is part of your strategy as a player. So, in like

match three D the tray is a fail state, but it's a kind of afterthought as well because you're so you're so focused on moving the stuff off the game board that for me at least, I never never really pay attention to the tray until it's too late. And so, it kind of in that moment when you fail because of that or rather than time, is frustrating because you're like, "God damn, I forgot about that." Whereas here, obviously, it it kind of inverts the play, right? Like you have to manage the tray. It's a part of the game. And so, I think that makes that in-app purchase economy more effective in that it feels more strategic. It feels like next time I play, I'll I'll use the tray properly. Like it's not something which you forgot and then you're like, "Oh, I'm so dumb." The thing which I'm less kind of positive about about Pixel Flow that I actually find it quite like frustrating

is the kind of I find it quite slow and it's similar with some with like What's that other game I was playing the other day? Like some of these tidy shelf games where the levels are super long. And so, if you fail, it kind of feels like quite onerous and there's quite there can be quite a lot of sitting around where the tray is full up. You've got like one spot left and you're just like sending this dude around to like pop off, get that one black one. I've got eight left and you have to send it around like eight times to free up a spot. Like that's just not fun, you know? And so, for me I'm kind of again, similar to what you were saying, David, I'm like it's a cool game and it is innovative, which is maybe part of the part of the part of the kind of like reason it popped off. I wonder whether part of the story also is UA and the fact that they were able to kind of make the two things work at the same

time, which drove this like audience into the game, monetize super well. Maybe it's maybe the the the kind of the the like the kind of interesting novelties worn off now and it's kind of like peaked. I don't know. I think there are better versions of it already. Like Hot Pot Flow is a better version of Pixel Flow, I think. Yeah, I I mean like kind of from the UA part. I think that's also a huge part of their especially early success. Like I don't know right now after like Scopeley acquisition and at really like significantly higher higher scale, I don't know if that's still the case, but I think at the beginning when the game was starting to scale, this structure of like artwork level target that is surrounded by this conveyor, I think that was a huge part of their initial success because like if you look at their most successful UA creatives, they are all like some type of very distinctive artwork level target. Like

you rarely see see like a randomly designed level as one of their successful UA creatives. It's usually like a distinct shape or like some I don't know, like emoji, some uh planet that immediately pops off the screen, attracts your attention and I think that's also a huge part of their success and which I think is going to become a playbook among other hypercasual puzzles in the market. Like we we already started seeing the clones or like new games that are using the same tactic, artwork level target and whatever else you can put on top of that. I think that's going to continue being like a strong weapon in the UA side of the business. Mhm. I read an article by Tracy Fan. She was saying that apparently UA was just absolutely on fire releasing like 3,000 ads a week or something. I can't find it now, the exact quote. Oh, there you go. Massive volume

reportedly 3,000 plus creatives a week. Playables and UGC from TikTok, YouTube, how to beat level X videos. I don't know. I haven't heard that The reason that I'm interested in it is because I haven't heard that many people talk about it, but it's like obviously part of their success, right? You can't have one without the other.
Yeah, I'm curious like they had the investments later than the game was published. So, how do they have the UA money to actually scale that high? That's what I'm wondering. That is a really good shout. Yeah, it's a good question. It's crazy how they were able to scale that much. So, if they're making 500k revenue a day, so how do they, you know, how do they get the money to spend? Yeah, I mean, again like looking back at the kind of company history, I couldn't see any funding around Press Games. They obviously released they released an absolute ton of games and they made a bunch of money from those games.

So, maybe they just had a kind of like war chest. Yeah, it definitely I mean, it is it's it's a really interesting case study in terms of I'm also curious as to why they made the decision to like shut that down, start Loom from scratch with this one thing. They obviously felt like mega confident in this game that it was worth kind of like canning all that previous work and starting just on this thing. Feels very It's obviously super deliberate. Mhm. Yeah. I have a like a a bit unrelated question, but still uh touching upon Pixel Flow. Do you think Pixel Flow is going to be like other developers, other games are going to be able to clone Pixel Flow in a sustainable way? Do you think we're going to see large enough Pixel Flow clones on the market? Or do you think this is going to be a huge outlier that may kind of inspire new sorts puzzles, but it's not going to have a second kind of like clone that's

going to be I don't know, it's it doesn't have to be a 1 billion business, but like 100 million dollar business.
Yeah, I think they're already doing it. I saw a couple clones that were getting 140k a day. So, I think if you're fast enough and you saw the vision and you uh started to copy Pixel Flow, you can be successful, but I think it it to be sustainable, you have to have some sort of separation between Pixel Flow. But it's really easy to copy because you can just copy the levels or what they were doing, you know, to be the first one to do it is the most important thing, but I can show you a couple of copies that I saw.
Damn. All right, just just Yeah, yeah, just just look at the difference. Yeah. But still they're they're getting nice revenue. But
I mean, million dollar a week isn't bad. Can you look at active users in all time? I just wonder when the how quick did they fall off? Yeah, this is last 30 days.

Can you do Can you do all time? Just see want to see how quickly they fall off. This This was the quickest fall like maybe one month after they started, yeah. I mean, I think the hardest thing with this is going to be I mean, you take I mean, I don't know much about about the team, but if they're making games for Raw Fury Games, they've been making games before, they understand how to make puzzle stuff, they know they know how to make something that's going to stick with people. That's really great. And the weakness would have been, "Okay, well, now they need to hire like a whole UA and operative team and live ops team and how are they going to operate all this stuff?" Yeah, well, they just got connected to one of the best operation, you know, operators in the business. If not the best operator in the business. So, it makes it a much more daunting thing to try to go after them. I mean, this is revenue, but what is what's profit look like for these guys? And I mean, what are the CPIs, the secondary CPIs? Like the first game, let's say the first, you know, somebody releases this first, they might get $1 CPIs, and it's

awesome. And then when you're running a the copy, I mean, you're not going to be able to also get $1 CPIs. You might end up getting $2 CPIs. I'm just making numbers up, but and that eats up a lot more of your and then your retention is worse and your CPI is higher, which means you can survive for a while, but how long? You know, I mean, what's that look like and what's the cycle? So, I mean, it's just really hard. And then especially if you go into like if it goes up against like if uh Pixel Flow is with a company that's willing to invest in it, they can just chase all those profits away for you if you're going to attack it. So, I think it's very difficult. Yeah, I I they're going to be able to outbid any of the clones like in the near future, I guess. So, I tend to agree with that. Like even like I can elaborate, you know. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, like even if you kind of managed to get an initial success, after you hit that like wall of like live ops and like high-scale UA and increasing CPIs and you need to continue kind of keep that mission going. Yeah, I think it's it became much much harder to clone and be

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What do you think is next for like I want to say for hybrid casual puzzles, but I kind of want to think about sort puzzles specifically. Because what we've seen is like literally we've seen Block Jam 3D 3 years ago like showed the almost kind of showed the way for hybrid casual puzzles. Then Hexa Sort came and became the kind of the poster child of the hybrid casual puzzle market and I think it still is because Pixel Flow quickly transitioned into casual puzzle. So, Hexa Sort is still kind of the golden example. And then Magic Sort again using like a sort mechanic showed that you can just build a casual puzzle business with a high with a like a traditional hybrid casual uh core mechanic. So, what do you think is next for both hybrid casual puzzle and the sort subgenre from now? That's a good question, I think. Well, I think what Magic Sort and

I mean, Hexa Sort was a big hit and no one was expecting it. So, I think aside from that, I think Magic Sort was or Pixel Flow, it's not a new mechanic that we these are something that we're used to seeing. So, they didn't reinvent something new, but they knew how to make the product get the purchase that they were planning to get the revenue and you know, actually monetize the players. But I think Hexa Sort was the revolution that started this sort genre to, you know, peak because I think they were not expecting Hexa Sort to be that much of a hit and the and the mechanic itself is much different than we were used to seeing before Hexa Sort was getting its scale. But something I like about Hexa Sort is so satisfying. The UX is just like there's a real when all the kind of hexagons like flip over from one thing to another, it's just got that kind of like that that kind of box-ticking thing of

like I can only I only need to really pay half attention to this and it's going to work anyway. And when it does the thing that I want it to do, it just feels great. And so, that's something which I think that they really nailed in a way that I don't know. Like it it kind of reflects also on Magic Sort where the color water sort games have also always had that lovely really nice kind of UX of like one of the liquid going in from one thing to another and it is like oh, it's so satisfying. Some kind of weird like like kind of OCD thing of just like oh, I'm sorting everything out now. Everything's fine. I think two things. So, number one is Magic Sort is just I I'm so impressed by that game. I think its quality is it's like it's beyond hybrid casual to basically hyper casual's grown up and bought a house and it's got kids and a mortgage and a pension like that's a

really really well-executed game and it we worked on color water sort back in the day and all of the things that they've done, things that you said at the time, you should do this. And so, it's amazing to see it done, but also done to a really high level. So, I think that's that's one kind of like route is finding these really nice mechanics and then saying what you were saying, David, like how can how can we how can we build this so it's highly IP-driven rather than ad-driven? That's one thing. The other thing I think is um is like these companies like like Crest Games and like Clap Clap Games and people like that who are just like hammering out prototypes at light speed and it's almost at the top of the funnel for the industry, I guess. Like people just kicking out a prototype a day and trying to find something which resonates between UA and gameplay and will have the legs to scale. Like I think I mean,

I don't know. It is like to an extent it's kind of bound by the limits of creativity and kind of business acumen. But actually, I was listening to it's like slightly unrelated. I was listening to this podcast yesterday about this this music guy called Lil Internet who's uh been playing around with AI and music for uh since like 2017 or something for ages. And his point on music was that he had these kind of rules about how he would how he how he would apply it. And so, he would only make he was only interested in making music what with AI where it would allow him to do something that he wouldn't have been otherwise been able to do. So, it wasn't just a kind of force multiplier of like how can I create like pounds of slop? It was how can I do something genuinely different with that. And I think that that's quite an interesting vector to think about is like what different types of experiences might this unlock that we couldn't have otherwise. So, I think

there's there's definitely this kind of like offshoot moonshot vibe thing going on at the moment which I'm really excited by. Yeah. One thing that I noticed when you were talking about Magic Sort and Hexa Sort was you're stacking things, but there's a limit. So, I mean, if you stack 10 things, you get to collect it. But if you're fast enough, you get to collect much and much more. And I think in Pixel Flow and Magic Sort, they have the same thing because when you're fast enough, you get to have these all these animations that you're tapping and sorting them out. And on Pixel Flow, you have a five, you know, five things limited tray. But if you're fast enough, you can actually make really loose when you're, you know, tapping it. So, I think these all these sorting games have these in common. So, they have they require a different skill to be able to you know, do something different and you know, play fast and have um a different, you know, playing type. I would say. They make you sort of feel like

intelligent, you know, you're clever. You they make you feel clever because like I tapped right at the like at the exact time and I was able to plan my move and everything so that like I was able to get this like perfect kind of uh align everything in the exact order. Yes, I think it's kind of a common pattern especially between Hexa Sort and Pixel Flow. Yeah, I I definitely agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just like you're watching someone else play it and you're like, why are you waiting the animation to end? You can you know, keep stacking it. I have I have another question because like we have Tom and David here who are like used to working at a like a much larger puzzle company with like much larger operations and like a different kind of focus. Do you think with the of course Pixel Flow is an outlier, but like it's obvious the whole hybrid casual market is on the rise and it makes business sense to develop those types of puzzles. Do you think that is going to affect the like traditional casual puzzle developers? I don't know.

Like Rovio, King, Tactile, you name it. Do you think they are going to be lured into the hybrid casual market due to the like this like recent development or do you think that there is a huge kind of like mental uh the requirement of mental shift that is just going to like prevent them from entering the market? Because like if they were to enter the market, I think that you know, what you mentioned with the animations and that visual satisfaction, I think like they are literally the ones that determined the set the bar, set the level. So, they already have the upper hand. So, like I'm curious what you think about it. It's like way too many pieces to think about there. But I mean, I would say that you can go back and look at like I think there's a video of Ricardo talking about King early. I mean, not I mean, you know, in 2010, something like that. Where he's talking about that they're basically I mean, King was built on

a player versus player puzzle experience. And the puzzles were all different. So it was very very different puzzles and they could they could be all different kinds. And the original like when when Candy Crush had blown up, it was I mean, Candy Crush blew up after a bunch of other things like, you know, I think it was called bubble puzzle or what was it called? Bubble shooter. And then the bubble witch stuff and so I mean, there was there was a whole like step up to getting to Candy Crush. And when King was in its most growth hungry, the idea was to take a bunch of different puzzle cores and put a saga envelope around them. And to me, that's exactly what I mean, that's what we're talking about hybrid casual. It's it's the old King strategy. I mean, make a really good puzzle game and then put around some progression drivers and some in-app purchase stuff. So I mean, it's what the these companies are good at and and could have done for a long time.

I think the hard part really is that what King doesn't have and what a lot of other I mean, like I mean, Tactile doesn't have and and is that what King used to have is a place to test a really engaging puzzle puzzle experience. I mean, this is what the Loom team had, right? They were making puzzle they were making funnel puzzle games, kicking out, waiting to find out which one takes off and then you learn something from it.
[snorts]
So I mean, the the companies that could do the best with this are the ones that are looking at puzzle games all the time. And that's why Voodoo set up a division to do exactly this. So I mean, I think the big companies could probably try it, but you'd need to the reason that it's hard is that you make a lot of money off of your big games and you need to somehow find a way to split the company between a something that's going to work much more scrappy and something that's going to work in this established way and that's a very hard thing to do when you're a big big established company. So I think it'll be hard for them to do. If they had the

appetite, they could probably do it, but it requires some severe management choices. Not all companies are up for it. I feel like a real I I think I think I think it makes sense because it's all about the opportunity cost. Like if it makes more sense for you to work on next game. Everybody could not say opportunity cost. You ruined it, man. Because like that while you were talking about the opportunity cost and how it makes more sense for King to work on Candy Crush and Candy Crush Soda. I thought of like Spike games because they also want to become a regular traditional casual puzzle studio. But when you look at their current portfolio, they have a Pixel Flow clone right now that is actually scaling pretty well. So I guess like if you also think about it from an opportunity cost perspective, I think if you want to be like a regular casual puzzle studio, but if you don't have a current portfolio that like justifies your efforts, maybe then it makes sense for you to kind of

pivot and shift your kind of direction a bit and enter the hybrid casual market. Like if And but you need to still need to Like what do you mean by hybrid casual? It's still my question. I mean, if you mean by hybrid casual get a puzzle like if you consider hybrid casual Magic Sort, which is like, you know, Water Sort given the casual treatment, but then you still need to find one that's going to work and you know, I mean, I guess I mean, I guess all of us know that every company has been looking around at what are the hyper casual games that work that if you just polished them up and made them work nice, would be a really good casual game. But then again, the question I had about the puzzles, the you know, Pixel Flow versus Twisted Tangle. Which ones are the ones that are actually going to work for in-app in-app purchases? And I think that's the big You need to figure out one that's going to work for that and build a proper model around it. And then again, you still you need to do reps. You need to do reps and then who can do reps? Who's got the skill set to

do it? I mean, do you need to do it in-house or do you have to do publishing too or like what is it you have to do? I mean, it's there's a lot to do to be able to do it in a high level and right now you've got, you know, teams doing externally, sending it to publishers like Voodoo or Homa or then publishing it and checking it, but that's not all. I mean, you know, and it's kind of split between two things. So yeah, I mean, it's complicated. Yeah, that's also correct. Yeah. But I mean, Spike could do it. I'm sure of it. They've got the I mean, they're smart and they've got the connections and they've clearly got the execution skills. So I mean, there are a few companies that could do it. So but what do you want to do? Do you want to get like a I mean, if you think of every one of these companies that don't have a hit yet and they wake up every day, do they want to set up a methodology or do they want to set up a game that works? They probably want a game that works. Maybe they could set up a good methodology and then 6 months later the methodology would create a game that works. But I think most people most company leaders and product leaders think I'm just going to make a game that works.

Not a methodology that's going to create a game that works. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, there is there's there's kind of like a middle path, isn't there where you would iterate on on the game that works, right? Like it's super rare to get Royal Match, Candy Crush, whatever. Like hardly anybody does that, but it's much more common to have something where I guess you would learn a bunch and then it would die and then you'll be like, well, let's recycle that into the next thing. That's it. I mean, there's definitely studios that do that, right? Where they're they're kind of clearly like iterating on a theme in hybrid in hyper casual hybrid casual like getting closer and closer and like one day it's going to work. Damn it. Each time they get a bit smarter and they learn a bit more. I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting. Zeno's paradox, you know? You're always halfway to the destination and you keep cutting it halfway. I think you probably need to be more radical. But it's hard.

That's why big companies can't do it, but small companies are desperate enough to do it. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, I think there's there's also maybe like a kind of I don't know, like it's like the company, but the constituents of the company also like the type of person that would join a startup. From my experience, you tend to get more like people that thrive on uncertainty and big bets and making leaps and building stuff versus larger companies often is a like safer environment and the people that attract there are more kind of like let's have a meeting about it. I'll talk to you next week kind of thing, you know, everything slows down and you kind of, you know, it's it's naturally a more conservative environment. Well, I'd rather be doing anyway. Where do you guys think the next big hybrid puzzle hit's going to come from? That That kind of became the

billion-dollar question after Pixel Flow, I guess. So I'm still I I still think the I think any Pixel Flow clone is not going to be really discussed at large enough to like become another successful business. But I think the layout that they introduced with that like level target with an artwork that is going to give you the advantage in UA immediately because like if you can't try several different variations in your UA that is already in your game. So there's no there's no kind of disappointment from the player perspective that they see something in the UA and another thing in the game. And it's also easy enough for you to produce that. I think that's like like a one part that I think is going to stick with the rest of the market and the next kind of like big puzzle hits, I think is going to use that. And I think this conveyor thing that Pixel Flow used and now we are seeing in other games. For example, Sand Loop from Voodoo is another example that

is kind of like scaling and is using the conveyor. I think it's also going to be another part of that like next hit that we're going to see cuz that's However you want you however you want to apply that implement that conveyor, that puts like high amount of dynamism into your core gameplay that improves your bot engagement. And again, like going back to UA, your creatives also probably perform better because your creatives look like more alive. They look more dynamic because like things going around usually like lower CPI. So I think those two parts, artwork as a level target and a conveyor of some sort that is like at the center of the level design, I think they are going to be still like part of that next hit. At least that's what I'm taking from taking away from Pixel Flow. Yeah, I'm currently seeing a mix of mechanics. They were mixing Pixel Flow with Bus Escape. So or like arrows type of stuff. So I think the

next big hit would be, you know, using Pixel Flow's smart mechanics or as you said, that conveyor or whatever that works for them and combine them with another successful mechanic, but make it as it's not it fits really well together. What do you guys think? I was thinking about a Block Blast and about how they kind of I don't know. I guess the interesting thing about Block Blast is how the levels are kind of like never-ending. Like I was saying earlier on how sometimes I feel like like super long level is a kind of I don't know. I think it kind of limits the potential of a game because when you fail a super long level, I think that puts people off wanting to try it again. Like it extends out the loops that it gives you less kind of monetization points, right?

Uh and and Block Blast is kind of in a way is like the reverse of that because if you play it well enough, the level goes on for infinity. But actually because of the way that they control uh or I'm assuming anyway that they can control the blocks that are kind of given to you to play, they can kind of like end the level to an extent or like have a high degree of control over when a level ends and when they get to that monetization moment. So, I'm quite interested in that kind of like experience where I think one of the things which really works about it is it's like Look at this, like it's like number one, super simple. Number two, it's very like low maintenance, you know? You could put this down and go and make a cup of tea, to have a chat to your partner, watch TV for a minute, come back to it, and the game's still there. You haven't kind of lost anything. So, it's the perfect kind of like

second screen activity in a way that doesn't work so well, I think, with something like Pixel Flow where you have to pay attention more. And when you fail, sometimes you've got to spend like 5 minutes redoing the level. It's a pain in the butt. Um so, I'm I'm kind of like I don't know. I don't know I don't know where this leads, but I'm kind of like I'm I'm really interested in this in the in the thought of like managing an experience in this way and how you can make a kind of like it feels I think it can feel to the player like very organic, but actually it's super controlled. So, I'd love to understand I'd love to look at the data behind this and the kind of analysis they do and what they kind of understand about managing the flow of a level. I think it's harder to do a game that doesn't force you into doing in-app purchases or, you know, getting monetized cuz I think Block Blast that means you really believe in your

product that you don't need to give that kind of a rush feeling. It's like you you don't need to pay attention, as you said. But, I think it's even harder to do in a game. Because that You think it's a It's like a one-off kind of thing, Block Blast. All right, this was nice. For for the listeners, please give feedback. If you listened this thus far, reach out to us on I don't know, LinkedIn, the Slack channel, whatever you want to reach out. Tell us like which parts you liked, which parts you thought could be short be cut short. And yeah, I think this was really fun. At least I enjoyed doing it. Thank you, Adam.
You want to say what you think is going to be the next hit? No, I don't.
[laughter]
I could tell you if I knew what the next hit was, I wouldn't tell anybody on this podcast. That's for sure. Yeah, yeah, you you wouldn't be here. You would be working on that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we know. It's just hard to see now because,

you know, I couldn't see Pixel Flow getting this big, too, and I couldn't see Episode getting this big. So, I think it's it's a matter of time. Maybe in months we'll see something new. Yeah. Definitely. I think anyway Akim is right that there are more things coming and everyone should stop being so depressed and make more stuff because these are good times, not bad times. Yeah, I totally agree. If you build it, they will come. All right. Thank you, everyone. Thanks, everybody. Wow, a Field of Field of Dreams reference at the end. That's amazing.
[laughter]
Well done. Field of Dreams, Kevin Costner. Do you like Have you seen Field of Dreams or did you just know the quote? Yeah, like I've I've seen it and I also know the quote, yeah. Okay, okay, cool. Nice. Field of Dreams is like soccer, but with with bats. It's Yeah. Let's just you know, it's just different. I suck. It's like Wayne Rooney It's like Wayne Rooney Wayne Rooney making, you know, a field and like, you know, Lancashire or

something like that and then everybody goes there. Like that kind of thing. It's rounders. It's like primary school sports, kids' games. Yes, exactly. All right, guys. Have a great day. Thanks. Cheers, guys. Bye. Bye-bye. You did it. You made it to the end of the episode. As a fan of the show, it would help us out if you would subscribe and leave [music] us a review on the podcast service of your choice. Those stars and likes, while a small action on your part, mean a lot to us and help to grow the show. More importantly, are you a member of the Deconstructor of Fun Slack group? If you have 5 years or more of games industry experience, go to deconstructoroffun.com/slack and apply to join. Join the games industry's best professional community filled with peers always willing to lend a hand or subscribe to our newsletter to get all the latest insights from the Deconstructor of Fun content [music] creators. Thanks for listening.