PlayStation: “We have a responsibility to the whole industry”

We have, as an industry leader, a responsibility to continue to drive and push to grow the whole industry, uh not just our own business. The pace at which I'm seeing some of the teams in China and South Korea and are astonishing. There are no dire times for the industry ahead as far as I'm concerned. Very smart decisions are being made by our partners. Very smart decisions are being made by platforms.
Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show with me, Christopher Dring. It's a bit of a different one this week. I received a question on one of our previous episode which asked about the process of getting support from platform holders, specifically in this case, PlayStation. Now, I mentioned that to my contact over at Sony and that has led to this interview with Christian Svensson, who is VP and head of second and third-party content ventures and strategic initiatives at PlayStation. In other words, he oversees the games not made by PlayStation's first-party studios. So, that encompasses external indies, double-A publishers, and even games that PlayStation have funded from

external studios. He also oversees a lot of PlayStation's activity in China. To set expectations, this interview isn't about PlayStation 5 or PS6 or the brand in general or price rises. It's specifically about how developers work with PlayStation. And although I know some of my readers will be familiar with some of this, I was surprised at just the extent of the things that PlayStation gets up to when it comes to supporting and working with external teams. So, without further ado, here is my chat with Christian Svensson. Hello Christian. Welcome to the show.
Thanks you for having me, Chris. Really appreciate it.
Um it's it's To begin with, it's probably worth sharing who you are. Um so, for those that don't know, what do you do at PlayStation? Who are you?
So, I am the vice president of second and third-party content ventures and strategic initiatives, um which is a very long-winded way of saying, uh I've got about five global teams that I work with. But, I'll talk about this kind of in the in the context of if you were a new developer, where might you interface

with our team? So, first is our partner development team. And their role is to bring new developers to the platform. It may be something corrective like something has blown up really hugely on Twitch or in early access on another platform. We want to make sure that that content is coming over and we'll proactively reach out. It may be reactive. We you know, we hear that there's a couple of folks who spun out of a larger studio who are starting a new studio and we're we're trying to reach out and make sure that they have access to kits and are on board and all of that stuff. That team actually works very closely with our independent partner account management team. So, we're approaching 10,000 partners registered on PlayStation and about 9,950 of those to some degree of this account team's responsible for their business on the platform.
Oh, wow.
And we work really closely with our few hundred within that kind of in a white glove kind of scenario. Then you have the portfolio and acquisitions team, which has a couple of different components there. First is content intelligence, knowing what games are coming to the platform and kind of

what importance that they have to us either financially or strategically. And they're responsible for content strategy, partnership strategy, so all of the investments that we make in either co-marketing or co-funding or development funding, they lead sort of the strategy around that. There's a small production team within that group that actually manages milestone reviews and
Oh, wow.
you know, partner feedback and helping game development. Then alongside that is the business development and strategic initiatives team. And as the name would imply, they do all of the contracts and negotiations and internal sort of stakeholder management as we move through those negotiations. They also on the strategic initiatives side oversee most of the hero projects that we do globally. They also act in an executive production capacity for some of the second-party project work we do. And then the last piece is the China software division. So, uh the function there is growing the number of titles

and teams we work with across China and getting games released in China even if they're not made in China. So, even foreign titles coming in, getting them approved and released, and getting more content on the platform officially there.
Oh, wow.
It's a wide-ranging but games are at the center of everything that my team does. It's we are a content-focused team.
Well, that's interesting cuz PlayStation is very much is the dominant force in in console games. Your big competitor is now one of your partners. And is it still important for you to sort of maintain this big level of support for third-party publishers and developers? Aren't you sort of the only option?
Yes and no. Um you know, I think if you look at PlayStation's history from the very beginning, we've been a very third-party focused ecosystem. And if you you know, talk to Shuhei Yoshida, who obviously has a very product-led background, he will say, "Look, a PlayStation is just a plastic box without content. And third parties are the lion's share of the content that

that comes to the platform." So, it is critical that we continue to lean in and drive and and be ambitious and and bring new voices to the platform. If we ever stop doing that, you know, the industry will stop growing. We have as an industry leader a responsibility to continue to drive and push to grow the whole industry, not just our own business.
All right. That's a good answer. This is probably a naive question that probably readers of the I say we actually I do know that listeners and viewers and readers of the show want to know this. So, but I think it's a naive question as well. How do developers work with you? How does that How does that What is that process even like?
So, it it starts with obviously first registering at playstationpartners.net. So, you have to be an official registered partner.
Mhm. It is free. It is not an onerous experience, but we're going to ask you a bunch of questions about who you are, what your company does, what's the game you're making. You're going to tell us a little bit about your game, and then you're going to go through the process. We actually just recently posted a blog

on the the Sony Interactive blog for how to start that process. The second part of that is once you're registered, we actually have I'll call it an ingestion form. And there's a link in the blog to that form where you can tell us more about your project, when's it coming. You can, you know, submit pitch decks, trailers, builds, all sorts of stuff, and the partner development team actually goes through that and triages that in two parts. You're now being tracked by us, um which is kind of critical. If we if we aren't aware of your game, the opportunities for you in terms of how we can work with you are very limited. But this is kind of the first triage point at scale for how we manage those 10,000 partners with a very small team to kind of know what's coming and and sort of elevate certain other teams across the business where there are opportunities to engage.
Mhm.
You can make asks of us in terms of hey, here are things that would be helpful to us as we're doing things like programming State of Play, as we're doing things like thinking about funding opportunities or grant opportunities or

participation in our Indies Day scores any other constant communications pieces. Those are all things that start there. The other part of this, obviously, is once you're signed up, you can get access to uh devkit and testkit. While supplies last, uh while funding in a in a given fiscal year still in effect. Uh we haven't run out in prior years, but I'm sort of giving that little caveat in the case that we sort of get a run on our resources. But to get set up as a PlayStation partner is a lot easier than people think it is. And again, it all starts at that website.
You mentioned that that's how you can track them and you decide, oh, this might be a potential partner for this, that, and the other. Is that what with PlayStation Plus as well? Is that how folks sort of get involved in there?
It is. It's how we start to think about um you know, we do meetings all over the world, whether it's DICE or GDC or Gamescom. There's ad hoc meetings happening constantly. We have our partner development and and then account

management teams are whether it's Taipei Game Show or G-Star. We're constantly meeting with partners and getting insights and connections. Coming back to Plus, it is very much a it's a programmed curated experience.
Mhm.
So, it is a bit But again, starts with it. We don't know about it, we can't include you in that curation opportunity.
Yeah.
We don't do very many day one titles. Now, we do though mostly for indies and there's probably between four and six a year that we kind of kind of focus on. But again, starts with our content intelligence piece first and then flows from there.
Okay. Well, let's talk about you mentioned there that the it's mostly independent games, but let's talk about some of that cuz for the smaller teams out there, what what what do you offer them? You mentioned a bunch of things there like, you know, fundings and programs and stuff. But what what do you offer particularly for the smaller smaller developer?
For the smaller developer, the biggest thing is I'll give you an example. GDC and Gamescom, we've been running something called our indie breakfasts.

Mhm.
And it starts with this year we ran two sessions. The room could hold about 75 people, both sessions were completely full. Obviously, we offer some some breakfast, some orange juice, some you know, baked goods. But the key thing is a bit of a walk through of best practices, tips and tricks, things that a lot of our partners aren't necessarily availing themselves of or think that we can't do. So, it's a it's a short 25-30 minute presentation. And then for the next hour and a half, it turns into an ask us anything. We have subject matter experts in the room from store, from marketing, from operations, cert ops. Ask us any question that you want that is relevant to your business. And the feedback that we've gotten out of that exercise has been extraordinarily positive in terms of the level of transparency and tangible actionable answers that people need. So, even if it's a question that you think is only pertinent to you, it actually tends to be pertinent to more people in the room. So, Indie breakfast is one. We do Indie

Days, for example, which we will announce somewhere between five and eight Indie titles using our blog and all of our social channels and our massive megaphone to blast and have some impact around their either launch timings or pre-order timings or Indie demo available. It's it's a it's a huge uh market opportunity. Um State of Play is even bigger. Obviously, we view in terms of Indies, um we put them on the same stage as our very biggest AAA partners. We don't think them as less than, we think them as an amazing compliment to the breadth and depth story that needs to exist on our platform that our better players need. On the funding side, I don't want to diminish what we do. We have spent We we have funded either wholly or partially more than 120 projects this generation. But, that is not the core of what we did. It is uh an ancillary set of investments that we make into these projects. And that's not counting hero projects, um by the way, which are separate on top of that. So, different

areas. Um we have a small diversity grant set of funds that we issue every year. Again, it comes through the process of that submission of hey, we feel that this is a team that should participate in in this program that we can help out. We have a very small sort of non-recoupable Indie fund uh as well that we sort of deliver sort of have some content come over PlayStation that might not otherwise get to us unless we were helping out. So, it's a combination of opportunities there. Um Trying to think else. I think those are the highlights. We have some other things in the works that I can't talk about yet that are very indie focused that I'm very excited about.
Oh, well, I look forward to it. You know, what you've touched up on it twice now with the hero project. Um this is where you've been pushing into I use the word new, but maybe sort of slightly untapped development territories, right? Like China, India, MENA. Top line, what is the thinking behind those?
Sure, there's a couple of different axes

that we're looking at there. First is, you know, great games we feel can come from and where that opportunity isn't always evenly distributed.
Mhm.
And PlayStation and console in general in a lot of markets is not necessarily the first port of call for what the local market has used to it. So, when you think of China, obviously, you know, a heavy mobile and PC market predominantly. India is a mobile-first market, definitely. Uh Middle East, North Africa, similar mobile-first, some PC. We need to build an audience and community of developers who have experience and understanding of what it means to make games for PlayStation. What does a controller-first set of interfaces look like? What does the support of our hardware partners look like to them? And this is a long-term play. There's no There's not a commercial near-term angle here that we're trying to sort out on the investments that we make there. This is a grow the dev community first. Get local content, which hopefully

resonates with local audiences as well. So, it helps grow the ecosystem as a player community as well. And then thirdly, how do we bring regionally relevant voices to our globally massively engaged audience? How do we expose that global audience to themes and content that they may not have had access to before? So, there's a a curation and a tastemaker element of what we're trying to bring to this as well. So, but these are you know, these are 5, 10 plus year visions for ecosystem growth really at at a whole from both a supply side and and player side.
I did um back in my previous job at gamesindustry.biz I did a piece on the the games market in India, the games industry in India and I spoke to a lot of developers there and they they kept talking about Hero Project and the impact that's having and of course there are other companies also doing activity in that space trying to trying to to grow the markets and access that talent and discover it and nurture it and and

and grow it and I know it's very appreciated in those markets. I guess it's a bit early to be able to judge any successes on it, but I mean how's it been going? What what have you found?
Um I think it's a little uneven right now. I mean I think China we've made massive strides and and the talent that we're seeing in China across kind of all segments is unbelievably strong and much stronger now than it was. It's China Hero Project even started before I got to SIE and I think it started in 2018 and the work that our teams have been doing across China, you know, our technical account management teams have been sort of really helping to teach devs in the region how to make games for PlayStation. We're we're seeing amazing amazing progress there both commercially and just in terms of quality of output even outside of the China Hero Project. India, I think we're a little bit further behind. The talent pool is there in a different way. I think we still have a lot of work to do in that area,

but the scale of it is promising and Middle East North Africa I think is a little bit even further behind India in terms of the talent pipeline, the level of experience. When you look at China, you have mega companies like Tencent and NetEase who have run studios for ages and you know, not necessarily are console focused but have deep development roots. When you look at the Middle East and North Africa, that that pipeline of talent is not there. We're hoping to establish that through some of these programs and the mentorship and and the teachings and support that we're giving these students. So, again, there's no near-term obvious successes to point to. We haven't yet shipped even a single mini hero project title of the ones that we greenlit. The first India hero project, by the way, went live on April 2nd, uh Fishbowl. We're really proud of that team. It's a a very small team, very adorable game. I would definitely strongly recommend people go check that out, please.
I'll have to look that up.
Yeah.
So, what's next then for this sort of

this sort of activity?
Well, I I think it's an ongoing thing. I think if you look at China, we've done uh three waves of China hero projects and we're sourcing and getting ready for a fourth wave. We're bringing in outside investment to help scale what we're doing there. Similarly, we're bringing in some outside investment in Middle East North Africa as well to scale some of the the efforts that we're making down there. But, I think with these three regions in the near term, that's what we're going to be focused on. We're thinking about what could be next, but we got nothing to announce today. Budgetarily, the investments are not insignificant and, you know, we're going to sort of stay the pace and stay on the course while we continue to sort of grow those regions a bit.
That the Fishbowl game was great.
Yeah, it's it's adorable.
I like what you said there about um um investments not being insignificant, but are there any other sort of developing industries that you're you're keeping an eye on for for the future?
Uh industries, nothing nothing specific.

Obviously, you know, our our corp dev team is is involved in a whole bunch of
Hm.
uh prospective investments and and our teams get pulled in to sort of kick tires and do due diligence from time to time, but nothing I can talk about in this talk precisely.
Um what do you see as the biggest sort of blockers or thing that prevents people from working with PlayStation or perhaps makes it harder to work with PlayStation?
I I think there's a couple of challenges there. I think people perceive that there's more friction than there actually is. Like I said, signing up at partners.playstation.net is very simple, very quick. Most teams can get on board within a week to a max. People think, well, submitting content for approval through cert ops is hard. Our SLAs for submission are down to four business days for a turnaround. Rapid patches are 24-hour SLA and most cases, well, okay, I'm going to be saying this is same day. Um so, like it it updating your games is

this very easy. People forget that, you know, if you sign up, you're we will give you any free devkit and a free testkit to get you started. I think in the future, my hope is well, we may have some cloud-based tools in the future that can actually make that even faster. We're not there yet today. That's a That's an out there but there's some testing going on which I find very promising. So, there's perceived friction. The other thing that we've we've been working on for years is improving our partner tools. You know, when I talk about the number of partners we deal with and scale, the thousands of partners that we deal with, you know, people come to us and say, well, who do I talk to at PlayStation? And I would kind of kind of turn around and say, well, who do you talk to at Valve? You know, the odds are probably no one. They have the right tools to allow you to to self-serve and do all of those things. We have all of those same tools. So, you have all of the power and tools, all of the documentation to really self-serve and be successful on

PlayStation as the vast majority of our partners do. And the other kind of challenges I think people have with us is they think, you know, hey, I'm I'm about done with my game. I'm getting ready to ship. Now is the time for me to talk to PlayStation. And the answer is really we needed to be talking to you a year plus before you're at this approach for us to do anything with you proactively. Last minute, hey, we're launching in 3 months. There's kind of not a lot we can do for you at that time. So, you know, we need people thinking a little bit further out in front of us and perhaps even a little less transactionally when there is so much power in their own hands and all sorts of opportunities that they can avail themselves of.
It's It's communication really. It's making sure developers know that they can do a lot of this stuff themselves and it's actually not as complicated as you may think, but you know, they do need to get in touch.
Totally. And that's part of what the Indie Breakfast are there to do. I mean sure we did them at GDC and Gamescom. We are probably development team literally

travels around the world. You know, we have folks going and running things with development groups in Romania and you know, through Korea and Taiwan and we have run what we call PlayStation develop events which are you're new to PlayStation or you're looking for more understanding as to how to develop in these of these things and they kind of run into two tracks. A very technical dev track run by our technical account teams. And then a kind of more business and publishing track. Here are all of the things that you need to be thinking about to get the best results as you launch on PlayStation.
What's the biggest mistake that developers and publishers make when they approach you and your team? Is it that they maybe come too late? Is that the biggest one?
Coming too late is a big one which which I think we touched on. I I also think they come and to be fair within the games ingestion form, we give an opportunity to say, you know, how can we help? What do you need from us? And there can be very explicit answers there. But I think the mistake is viewing the opportunity as a transactional one

and not necessarily thinking about and you know, what might SA be needing at this point in time in their hardware cycle or in the next couple of years as my game is coming to market. If I'm if I'm 2 3 years away, what are they going to be looking for in 2 or 3 years? Um I know we're not explicit about what that is and we're very we're very careful to not sort of telegraph some of those things. But be thinking and anticipating what what might their business objectives be and where might this title or my team fit within that. I'll say the third related piece of that is we will see pitches that are very obviously been completely unchanged depending on who they're talking to. And and this is not just for us. I would argue as as a game dev going to talk to any prospective partner or publisher, tailor your pitch to that specific audience. Yes, there's going to be reuse of of assets within that, but

you know, definitely be thinking about what that particular partner not just is looking for, but what are they sensitive to? Um what what might be a turn off for them kind of pretty pretty early in the conversation.
Yeah.
And anticipate that.
But you sort of talked about it there. It's the business challenges that some game studios have encountered over the last few years, finding funding, keeping their costs down, or getting their games discovered. That's a that's a big one. So, what role do you see yourselves playing in alleviating those and and making that more manageable?
Sure. You know, I'll I'll speak a little bit about audience and discovery. I mean, one of the things that we can offer through the PlayStation Store are increasingly personalized means of connecting the right content with the right player. So, the the level of personalization that's come up on store has has drastically increased over the last couple of years such that instead of having a single store globally, we actually now have technically millions of stores that

are personalized with large selections of the slots on the store really connecting uh your game hopefully to that right player. We do obviously, as I mentioned earlier, offer some amount of funding. It is It is limited and not something that I would suggest is business as usual. Certainly less than 1% of games coming to the platform in a given year, well less than 1% of games coming to the platform in a year, have any sort of funding or or or formal partnership with us. But it is an opportunity to to consider. You know, I'm trying to think of other things that we we work on that can can offer value there. One of the other things that our partners don't do a ton of is if you go into the PlayStation Partners Portal, you will find something called Help Center. And there's a massive documentation set there that has a ton of best practices around some of the very basic tools you can use. Simple things like, "Hey, set up your product

detail page, your your store your basically effectively your store page, and start driving wish lists the same way you would on any other platform." We have a best-in-class partner analytics tool that can help you track and see how your wish listing is going, what marketing exercises are driving your wish list activity. Just as you would on any other platform, you know, you'd be surprised how many partners don't do those things. They're they're very basic things. Taking advantage of official news um to engage with your your players across our mobile app and on console. Like we we we touch people on a Once they've signaled interest, you are in control of the communications cadence to that to that player all the way through launch and beyond. Again, the Help Center and documentation areas are really uh critical uh for our partners to take advantage.
Does what your first-party teams do? Um, does that influence at all what you do

with with third parties?
You know, it there are areas um Let me put it this way. The first party teams do an absolutely incredible job of showing I'll say where's the bar, where's the quality, how do we take the best advantage of the features that our hardware and platform offer to players. So, quite frankly, we do take a lot of the first party content out to our third-party partners and say hey, this is this is a best-in-class example of how to use this thing. And, you know think about that in the context of as you're as you're developing your next week. As far as technology, there's not a lot of technology sharing, but there are systems that are being built in part for first-party exercises. So, for example, we do have some future beta functionality that was really being built on behalf of the first-party side that is going to

trickle out and become increasingly available to our third-party side and that's like the basis. More often than not, though, it kind of goes the other way. We're building some things for third parties that then first parties will be able to sort of take advantage of. There's a couple of programs that our teams have been working on for a while that I can't talk about yet that will be I think best-in-class examples of what that would be even relative to the clients. We'll talk about that shortly.
You're teasing.
Yes.
Well, I was I guess I was sort of thinking in a way when you've got something like Marvel's Wolverine coming out on September 15th and you're working with third parties and you might be going maybe avoid maybe avoid that week or I don't I don't know if you give that sort of advice or not.
Air traffic control, we have to be very careful with the first-party games move all the time. And so, whenever we you know, whenever you tell a partner hey, that you might not want to be in the first half of September and I'm not going to tell you why." all of a sudden um they you know, they set their game in in October and

you know, that big first-party game you know, moves to that to that October. So, like nothing's you have to be very careful with that kind of um telegraphing because it can come back to bite you.
Yeah, but I guess that's true. Um you did talk about the fact that you don't telegraph necessarily what it is that might be suiting your strategy at any one point, but I'll ask this anyway. What sort of games and teams and projects and stuff are exciting PlayStation the most right now?
I you know, I I mentioned a little bit earlier in in the sense that the pace at which I'm seeing some of the the the teams that are in China and South Korea are astonishing. The skills of those teams, the responsiveness in their approach is something that we're not necessarily seeing out of out of some of our Western teams or even our Japanese teams. It's really kind of impressive. The content that's also coming from there is very different than

stuff that we've seen at least on on PlayStation before. There's obviously in the region on PC some you know, some of this stuff has been has been around for for a while, but for our audience this is going to be new and fresh. You know, I'm not going to say exactly exactly in what way, but it's been exciting and interesting to see what the evolution of what those teams are working on and kind of how they they in that region they continually push each other. And and for as large as the dev community as it is, they all know each other. They all talk. It's interesting to sort of see what their what their trends and and and and sort of trajectories are relative to you know, Western dev communities are tight, too, but I think it's it's there's a different dynamic there than and seen anywhere else.
Mhm.
As far as it is teens, you know, frankly, we want to see games with strong original creative visions. Like and that can come from anywhere. One of the reasons why we aren't prescriptive in

terms of what we're looking to fund. There's like no there's no genre plan, there's no like that doesn't exist. We want to strong points of view, strong visions of ownership. And you know, in the in the case of things that we fund, we also want to understand the production is there to get there, that the they're resourced correctly and they're thoughtful about how they're planning their teams. What is the right scale of the team to achieve the vision that they're trying to get to? Are they being too ambitious? Is their budget too big? Is their timeline too long? Or is it the other way? It's, you know, their vision is way too big for what they've got on the docket in terms of even what they requested of us a resource. And the third part of this is understanding a popular market. We work with so many developers who are so great at making games and they grossly underestimate the work it actually takes to stand out to
Mhm.
you know, create resonance, to build community. Um and and and or they think about it way too late. You know, they're so heads down on making the game that they've missed the commercialization

piece of the puzzle. And um and that's a problem.
Yeah. My question was going to be what do you foresee as being the next challenge challenge you're going to face as particularly the industry shifts and changes so quickly when it comes to working with studios, but I don't know if you just touched upon it there.
That's something that's unique It's not not unique. It's not unique to any segment of our business. I mean, the way of AAA, the future is going to be there's going to be more touch points with players than ever before and figuring out how to navigate the number of devices, the number of audience segments and finding your right audience for your specific game is going to continue to be with big the big challenges.
Mhm.
Personally, I'm super excited. Like I I'm I'm in an incredibly privileged position in the industry to have amazing visibility into what games will be for the next 3, 4, 5 years as I we're aware of our partners' road maps. I literally cannot explain to you

like last year was an amazing game for year for games. This year will be an an even better year for games. Next year will be an even better better year for games. So, like it's it's the trajectory of content is uh unbelievably positive and we as an industry should be super optimistic about where we're going to go in spite of the hypeness.
I obviously live in the now. So, I'm talking about what's going on in the industry now and I try and be I'm actually quite a bit more cautious to talk about the industry needs to do this because actually the industry may already be doing it. We just it just takes 3, 4 years, maybe even longer before we start seeing the results of those changes or those tweaks that we make at seven point I say we, you know, the industry makes at different points in its cycle and and you know, the amount of articles I read on a on a website that will go this is what the games industry is making the same mistakes. I mean, I think actually the mistake you're seeing is from
3 years ago, 4 years ago.
Yeah.
That's it. You are completely right and and you know, it's what what we or you know, other

publishers or or or developers can't talk about is when you think about a product cycle 2 years at the low end, 5, 6 years at the higher end. The decisions we're making now will affect where we're going to be in 5 or 6 years. And obviously the decisions we're making now take into account where we are at this moment, right? And and anticipating where where we're going to be over the next couple. So, the industry is there are no dire times for the industry ahead as far as I'm concerned. Very smart decisions are being made by our partners, very smart decisions are being made by platforms like be more comfortable than you than you think you should be.
Well, I hope you're right when you have more insight than I do. And if I I'll finish with this final question, which isn't really a question, it's more of a recap, I guess, but what one what piece of advice would you give to developers that are thinking, "I want to get my game on PlayStation." What what piece of advice would you give them?
First of all, just just start. Just sign up at partners.playstation.net. Get onboarded. Start playing around with the tools. The SDK will be available

pretty much immediately as soon as you get onboarded. And obviously, we will ship hardware as quickly as we can. Um don't be afraid. It is not that complex. There are there are again, nearly 10,000 developers that have managed to go through this process. I guarantee you you can do it.
Brilliant. Thank you, Christian. It's been a wonderful to have you on. Thank you for your time.
Yeah. Thanks, Chris. Appreciate it.
So, that's it for today's episode of the Game Business Show. I just want to thank Christian for sharing that insight with us, and indeed for a bit of optimism as well. We love a bit of optimism here at the Game Business. Of course, there's lots more to come from us in the days and weeks ahead. More big interviews, more deep analysis, more insight, and more news. So, if you like this, head to the gamebusiness.com if you haven't already, and sign up to receive our newsletter. That way, you'll never miss an episode. But, that's it from me today. Until next time. Thank you for tuning in.