Overwolf + TRN | How to be an In Game Creator?

you welcome everybody we are here today with over wolf and the tracker Network and today we're gonna be talking about over Wolf's framework for enabling their creator community to build in-game apps and more recently game mods so a few stats 10 million daily app engagements in a hundred and eighty million game sessions in the last month and even further top creators on overwolf have earned over 1.2 million dollars per year so with us to talk about all this stuff and more is uri march on the CEO over wolf and Matt Hawkins the CEO of tracker network and overwolf creator and more specifically today we will be talking about one an overview of the market for in-game apps and game odds to what is over wolf and the story behind their company which is actually a really

fascinating story 3 what's it like to be an in-game creator and for the expansion of over wolf via the acquisition of curse forge from twitch so welcome guys and maybe we could just start by having a brief touch in terms of Unicron movie star do you agree sure first very happy to be here so on 40 years old married hip for kids basically started my professional career in the Israeli Air Force that was a helicopter pilot like to say 50 degrees and have done that for something like seven years I then left the army studied computer science and while doing that in my first bootstrap startup in eLearning and after graduating from computer science I basically started with Wolves been playing games ever since I was six favorite genres RTSs and now movie yeah

the owner of trekker Network started it in officially about 2015 unofficially as a hobby around 2010 had a long career of being a programmer developer software out the consulting world and all kinds of that finally in 2015 things started to kind of get going pretty good for the sites and such so move to full time and I've been doing that since then so things going great awesome so maybe we could just go ahead and dive right in but I thought it'd be great to first just start with an overview in terms of the market for in-game apps and game modes so could you guys talk to us about for the people in the audience who don't understand this market what are examples of applications or you know programs in this market what's the general size of this market that we're talking about sure that you want to think that should I you go first all right the first I think

apps mods websites or communications around games that existed pretty much since game started in UGC I think there's the bright side and dark side dark side Yugi sees cheats and these type of things that eventually hurt the economy and the bright side are community creations that actually either help make the games a little bit better the experience is more interesting or help players in general I think when a game developer shoots a game after a very very long creative process and if the game takes off there's gonna be a lot of fans that want to play this game whether it's an established developer or not established developer and at that point they're probably going to be really really busy with polishing the gameplay experience and adding more content and listening to what the community has to say and then iterating on what the community has to say but

what if there was a force in parallel of a lot of fans were really passionate for a game that could enhance the games in many in many ways this is basically this has been existing in you know for a long time but up until now there wasn't a company that said hey we want to solve all these problems for creators and this is what we're trying to do in terms of the market size it's really hard to estimate because I think no one really measures it if you trying to look at engagement metrics that you would see huge numbers of downloads from for example the mod portals with its ModDB or Steam Workshop or Nexus mods or curse Forge it's in the billions right so just course Forge for example has a couple data couple billion mod downloads per year which I think similar numbers on workshop and Nexus mods so in terms of

the sheer engagement metrics I feel like it's very big in terms of how well it monetizes that's a lot smaller and I think this is an industry that we're building right now I think in terms of use cases there are many many different use cases in modding and apps and websites with competitive games one of the most popular ones is only get stats or I want to be better as a gamer and I want to have this single source that's going to provide me the information that I need to play better and to track my performance you know if you compare it to running for example then you know there's Garmin and there's a lot of running apps it would be kind of similar with competitive games with single-player games for example Skyrim modding there would be mostly around either creating a new version of the game or a changing kinetics in a way that just creates a bit of a different experience just like a DLC and there are world warcraft add-ons and there are

another there are more types of you know UGC that could be created around the game experience so I think this is that not would you agree I think this is in high-level how we look at this from a dollar standpoint I think it's really really hard to estimate what's that worth right now because I feel like we're in the process of doing it and then map for you like you're more on the in-game app side and so for for you your audience is that mainly competitive players or people who are trying to you know just get better in terms of their gameplay that's certainly target so it's kind of its kind of biased for us it's definitely who we go after that's kind of what our mindset is as well so in you know different games have different engagement levels on that kind of things games just aren't you here at leas competitive so you know yeah we're targeting the competitor competitive people in the competitive games and platforms like overwolf has allowed us to kind of do more real-time

type engagements with those players whereas our stats stats are kind of like after the game is over after you've closed the game you can kind of review what you've done so that's definitely what we're targeting yeah and in terms of like the monetization model is it like a subscription to stats or is it like just a purchase for a tool or what does that generally look like so we're mostly just at revenue right now so you but both in our overwolf apps and our websites it's it's complicated it's difficult to do difficult to monetize especially with you know the and the new things that are changing with privacy and blocking stuff like that so we're trying to find other ways to monetize but it's definitely a constant challenge to do that right now we're mostly relying on at revenue right and is is that something that overwolf helps with in terms of the ad infrastructure to enable that stuff yep so what we do anything this is the first byte of

monetization solutions so I think we look at problems at large and then we try and tackle them for creators and we think the basic thing for monetization is to have an ADD solution that fourth grader would be super easy to implement in their app in JavaScript they would choose to implement ads and where on their app they want to implement the ads and we do experience curation to make sure that you know they're not putting it in a brace that's not reasonable or that's going to affect the game experience and all that and this is how it works from the outside we haven't had ops team in the company and we're plugged into SSPs there's a company that sells us directly it's called play wire so it's it's mostly play wire plus programmatic to serve these ads we just recently added subscriptions so if a creator wants to turn on subscriptions they can do that either for turning off ads or adding extra feature or anything in between we'll be adding soon donation

we're also exploring other interesting models around monetization for example there's a company scooti that have recently announced that they're providing an in-game ecommerce solution to provide you with an e-commerce experience for the stuff you may want to buy inside the game if you want to reward the creator so if there's something that you wanted to buy anyway you could support a fader through buying your either nike shoes or whatever else through their app and that would be another way to reward a creator so this is where we are right now I think ads are you know first nobody likes ads but I think the advantage of having that solution allows apps to go through the journey from creation to quality and this is what I think for creator economies at large that are important and it's important in products like YouTube or tick tock and it's also

important over wolf because it allows you to start something off release an MVP makes something for yourself so that you can see the longer-term potential and then eventually you can really make a living off of it right and if we were to look at like the in-game apps market versus the game mods what are the top games to build for so I think in apps first I think top games to build for correlate with popularity and the approach of the game publisher or game developer so if a game is really really popular say like League of Legends and the company really stands behind creators you know if devrel department and with api's then there's gonna be a lot of content and there's also a lot of potential because you know there are a lot of fans out there the one thing there are really really popular games that don't invest as much in the creator

community so it's a little bit harder to create content for these games but still you could be successful creating either an app or a mod for a game even if the game developed does not invest the federal resources on supporting the queer community where you probably gonna fail is with games you know that don't take off even if they were heavily invested in mods they're just not enough people playing those games so there's probably you know not a huge opportunity to make a living off of creating an ancillary service map for you is there a specific game you wish they would enables API access to you or it's some sort of access to it yeah the biggest one we're trying right now is like apex legends so you know tracker networks kind of runnin at you with a big old hugging hands and some of these developers once the hug and some of them are running away from us so and I don't really understand why you would but yeah that's the big one right now that we're

trying to get legitimate access to great API right and maybe one other question I can ask you man is like when you're making the decision in terms of building sort of the in-game stuff web versus app what is there any specific you know like how do you think about that differentiation in terms of like delivering what the information or delivering experience to users on both of those platforms we usually start with data I guess so what data can we get for this for this game and usually the gate the data that we can get outside on the website first is the data that overall provides is usually different so not only can we do unique real-time features on the overwolf app but we can also then bring in those api's that we're using on the website to add even more additional functionality to the app so we always start with data what can we make for this game that that's going to be valuable to players and help them

improve their game okay so okay now shift and talk a little bit more about overwolf and you know not only this story behind the company but in terms of the product itself can you for it for the audience you who aren't familiar with this space so you know what does overwolf do and how are in-game apps developed using the overwolf framework a roof apps are single page web apps craters news javascript and just HTML and javascript to create a desktop app that would then work inside again sometimes some people are aware of electron you know roof is kind of similar to electron but made for gaming so if electron is Chrome you basically taking the chrome engine and making it really easy to create desktop apps with HTML and JavaScript a roof is also based on chromium and it makes it easy to create desktop apps that would then work inside the game apart from creating a desktop app we provide all the services that you need as a service through API so for

example you want to be able to get your own installer and your desktop icon and to be able to hit Winky and to launch the app you want to be able to have an interactive in-game overlay that supports every game so that if the app wants to interact with the game and while they're playing you won't be able to do that another big thing that we're providing is real-time telemetry so the ability if you're playing a specific games you know which game that is which champion your location on the map your roster the people that you're playing with your weapon currently if you just gave them and took map damage killed someone you died you know all those events are really hard to understand and we have over years to build the capability to get those things in well time without having an impact on the game experience so essentially an app grader can create whatever they want inside the game because they have access to both presenting UI and the information and we curate that it makes sense with the policies of the of the

game and that you know it doesn't provide an unfair advantage more things that we provide are for example capture api's so if you wanted to capture a quick clip or replay and there i want to say something like four or five different third-party companies creating all sorts of permutations on highlights services we also through our framework provide monetization as I mentioned previously debug tools and analytics so behavior analytics for your products so you go to your author dashboard and you can see things like how many downloads and retention and how much and crash rates and crash reports we just recently added the ability to get more granular information around crashes and makes me everything you know authors need to build something that would then work inside a game does that make sense yeah so how much like technical proficiency for an aspiring in-game app

creator out there what sort of programming language how much what is sort of the technical bar in order to start building using Oh falafel I would say it's relatively low but it's for people who understand software development so you have to be pretty good at HTML Javascript but that's it okay so if you know how to create a website or a landing page you can easily build an overall app and for example I know that you know in computer classes in high schools and even junior high those are the type of things that they learn in Israel and we even have a conversation right now with a few high schools to get a wolf into their learning program so that they can instead of just creating a website they can create an app for something that they're passionate about because a lot of people play games here great so that's what you guys are today but I actually just reading on the story of over wolf on your website I thought that was fascinating so maybe we could also just get you to kind of give us a you

know overview in terms of how you got here to the current product and from where you started which again I thought was really fascinating sure so we started 2010 finished studying computer science did an entrepreneurship program in my fourth year and I felt like there was an opportunity to build products that would add features that I was missing as a game so the vision behind the company with our seed funding we got $100,000 from Yossi Vardi he's one of the big engine investors here it seems to us back then like a lot of money apparently it was not but the thesis behind the company back then is we're just going to create this product that's going to be like a Swiss Army knife with a bunch of features first one we had was Skype integration we had a browser that inside the game we had video capture and a bunch of other features I took us about a year and nine months to ship the

first version of the product that was quite mediocre I think back then we had the tendency to try and capture more than we can actually execute on as young inexperienced entrepreneurs we thought that scope matters and we now know that quality matters and we thought that people like Swiss Army knives in actually nobody likes I mean ice especially if it's that it's a software product maybe people like the knife itself but not as a software product at that point what we were able to achieve technically got a lot of people's radar and we started having all sorts of conversations that hey why don't you guys build this or what do you guys build that and to these conversations we thought oh this is gold so we then limited in bid that or this was another interesting idea so we did that as well so what we ended up having is this collection of unpolished apps that really took us nowhere and I think

the peak was a conversation that we've had with Microsoft back then around building a touch controller for a Windows tablet so back then iPads were a huge and there was an opportunity around building Windows tablet and this was nature of conversation with Microsoft and our mission was to create a touch controller that makes PC games that were written for mouse and keyboard that would make them playable on a touch device so using our attack you know overlay capabilities input handling and all those things we were able to really get it done but that was a super expensive pivot from which nothing came out so after a long time of you know pivoting between a million ideas and really not succeeding and running out of money in 2013 we were in a place where we have to ask yourself you know some some tough questions and trying to understand what works and see if we can play on our strengths so what we knew

works is that people play games and game is just gonna keep on growing so the no doubt about that the second thing we noticed is people keep on coming to us with requests and you know do this do that both users and big companies and then the third thing we've learned is that we just cannot do everything ourselves so we thought that the best way to sort of fulfill our mission as company is to instead of trying to build everything ourselves let's just focus on building a framework and then allow third party creators to build content that could be game specific could be generic across games and this is when we started this journey and our big challenge then was that we had to both build the chicken and the egg at the same time because you know when we we worked on this pivot we've raised 5 million is there a round and after a year we finished the framework so you could develop apps one up

happening is nobody wanted to develop apps because we didn't have an interaction as we had to do we have to work hard on explaining the advantages they can benefit from from you know building an app and a roof and what we bring to the table through that get to the place where folks create apps through that grow a little bit and then the cycle will start happening so this is it in general I think the the big thing for us was the pivot to an open framework the obsessive sort of focus on hey we're just going to do a framework we're not going to do things on the side and this was what helped us get to where we are today and what was the thinking behind when you decided to go you know the framework only like how did you know that was a right decision or what what led you guys to believe that was the right thing to do so you know back then we didn't know we just felt that there's

enough evidence that it might work the evidence was in the form of just either user request or business requests for more use cases the second evidence is that people play games and they're just going to keep on playing more games and the third one is that we felt like we were really infrastructure but the culture we had back then and that's a bit different but the culture we had back then was of you know constantly hey we gotta solve every use case and we got to build it in-house and you know looking back that's very naive way of thinking I think when you're building software products and it's all about quality it's not about scope and by definition you're not gonna be able to build all these use cases and as a confused young entrepreneur if you're saying yes to everybody you might you know you think something wrong but the framework allows us to contribute you know to all these different use cases so this is why we felt it's going to work but we didn't have a lot of questions one well question mark a

second right and then what was the point or when what marks the point at which you guys got traction you're able to convince guys like Matt to start building with overwolf how did that happen in terms of getting that initial traction so I think before we start working with you Matt and correct me if I'm wrong we already had a couple of use cases one was an app for her stone called Mars arena that helped drafting the app itself prior to having an app the crater had a website and just the experience of coming out of the game inserting the name of the cards that are currently on the screen for drafting and then updating the website what you chose was super cumbersome and for the first time through the app we were able to sort of or the creator was able to kind of make it as if it was again a feature inside the game so I think that use case as well as a couple other use cases is potentially what got an Mance Rayder and

also with Matt I think he was one of our first partners you were one of our first partners and the journey has been interesting right we started with rocket League that can you know been necessarily work as best as we wanted then we try to you know buy more than we can chew I think with for Knight but then we have some some nice successes and I think now we figured out how we scale this together and Matt how did you first hear about them was it like some form link somewhere do they reach out to you directly based on another product you had made or how did that happen they actually reached out to me Nick on Twitter and just asked me they shall be what they were doing and asked if we were interested in looking into it I think that kind of before me they were focusing on different games like the hearth arena that some of the mobis and stuff which is not my department really I'm more of the shooters and stuff except for rocket lady obviously but you know once they reach out to me which we you know a lot

of people reach out to us for different things but for some reason like I was really intrigued by the the in-game aspect of the apps because that's something that we've been trying to do for a long time is to not just have someone visit a page and then leave to actually have you know engagement with them keep them keep showing them informations that they can use so it didn't take long for me to be convinced this was something that we wanted to look into further and so we built out our first rocket League app with them and yeah it was a challenge and there was a lot of lot of hurdles but when it was done we could immediately see the value started seeing you know installs and stuff and the feedback on Twitter and stuff so it was a it was clear to me that we need to continue to iterate on that and to look for more opportunities and hurry was that the initial marketing strategy basically Twitter DMS work you

know Twitter email pigeons anything that we can communicate with creators because we we were in a place where you know nobody knew about us we had to we felt like we were ready in retrospective I can tell you right now that we weren't ready but we felt like we were ready because you know you can build an app so you know everything's gonna work right now we're a lot smarter in the framework itself there's a lot more robust so I think you know we're never gonna be fully ready because you can always add more things we're now in a very different face compared to where we were three four years ago when we had to build all those things so it was mostly about trying to pitch an idea that creators felt passionate about as gamers and then okay this is cool I don't know if it's gonna work I don't it's gonna be a commercial success but you know what let's give it a try and see where it takes us right and maybe now shifting more to the creators tonight and more

more your story Matt so tracker Network you guys focus on the stats side of games working on games like fortnight Rainbow six siege Valerie packs and as far as I know you guys track a hundred million players and have over two and a half million registered users so you know fantastic traction there but can you talk more about your company in terms of like the products and the specific story as far as how you got started in terms of this type of business and then you know just kind of how you're able to expand via the using the overwolf framework sure so what can we we started with halo tracker so that it was just me back in the day I was basically you know during the day job and I was using my my skills for someone else and I was just not I was kind of losing the passion so I wanted to kind of work on something that was for me and so that's where I started halo tracker as a hobby and I I built that site out

for about five years as a hobby never really made much money you know we had some ads and we had some you could donate and stuff but it was never a focus of the site and so that was just kind of a hobby thing for me to use my skills on to practice learn new technologies and stuff like that when destiny came out Destiny one was when I started to devote more time started devoted you know weekends and stuff on that kind of thing so when think that's when also when the site started to really gain traction you know with the halo tracker I didn't really know what a successful site looked like you know if you had a few years on there that felt good so thought was I was killing it when I launched the Destiny site I realized the halo site was doing nothing so that mean the destiny really was a much bigger game much more things you could do with it an official API stuff like that so it really the learned my my interest in it and the gratification that you get from users and such so

that's when I started to take it more seriously and to kind of think about that how can I do this better so that was really the how I started and then we got our first with with destiny I met someone else he was kind of a competitor and I liked what he was doing I saw that he was kind of using the same technology I was and so I was like hey maybe we can work together instead of working against each other work together and build one bigger thing right so that's like kind of an odd thing for someone to accept but this guy was really open to it and he wanted to do it and so you know he's still with me today and we're still working together and now that we're kind of an official company and working full-time got employees and such now so that's kind of humble roots that just kind of grew over time and kind of accidentally fell into this and now it's definitely still my passion so you know I'll never stop doing this great and then on your side

in terms of how you initially gained traction sounds like destiny was like the big shift in terms of the success of what you were building but you know what did it just kind of talk organically just the fact that you had that product and people were looking for it or did you market it or what was the magic behind your product taking off yeah I think it was you know me and the other guy were developers so we you know we did not have a marketing department so it was just kind of organically we were you know we were on Reddit and stuff like that we were just listening to use her feedback people would post on Reddit you know why why can't I see this and we'd reply you know coming right up and you know in a few days we'd released that feature and so it was just a community engagement and kind of organic organic growth it wasn't you know we didn't do a lot of paid like ads and stuff like that so and to this day I still kind of the true true you know we still thankfully we have other sites so

we watch a new site we can kind of piggyback and use some of those engagements to push our new sites but it's still the same marketing thing that we do on our websites is just the organic growth and trying to connect with the community and then in terms of working with overwolf do you have any advice for let's say other creators trying to build in in-game apps using overwolf in terms of what what should they be focusing on to make sure that they've got a good product that that they launch yes I mean the I recommend if you have a good idea and over wolfs it's gonna be a great format for your application then I would do it for sure because one thing that's great about over wolfies like like said earlier you can use the web technologies that you know so you're basically still be making like a spa with a web application but you also can get support from overwolf things like ads you know tracker network we have on the on the

web we have our own ads script that we've made and managed and we've we've poured hundreds of hours into that thing over many years to improve that and we've had to learn so much about how ads work you know with with overwolf you can just slap their script in your in your app and they're gonna review and tell you how to do it and it's just going to work and it's gonna be well monetized you're gonna make you know mount of money that you make per user it's going to be also higher but it's also going to be easier to come by in terms of they're gonna manage all of that so that there's things like that and the marketing is something also that they can help with I find you know even for someone like me who's kind of a seasoned developer in this space I still rely on them a lot for their support on marketing their ability to contact influencers to market the app to manage those influencers make sure that they're actually influencing stuff like that there's just a world of things they can help you do to grow your

app while you can sit back and kind of focus on the product and the development which is where most people have their passion so like you know my passion is building apps brainstorming and building my passions not marketing my passions not doing ads for my app it's just so that's that one thing that you can get with overwolf whereas if you were to make a web version of your idea if it was even possible you're on your own for all those things and could you speak to a little bit more in terms of the marketing so as far as like you know that on the outside how are those types of products generally marketed and distributed today and then what are you guys doing specifically to help market that stuff for creators like that sure so first I think we we have two routes one is owned media and the other one is paid on the own front there's app store

placement on our store where people discover content there's if the crater kind of like matt has already an existing community then what things they could do is to use empty slots so if slots in which ads are not suspended because of ad blocker because of that could fill to promote their apps and this is kind of it's a great good market channel another very valuable part in the o media side is just content recommendation so for example if we saw that you just finished playing our six and matt has great app for our six well tell me hey are you interested in checking out this app here's what it does and that performs and converts really well on paid you know we currently focus on more of the traditional things that you would expect us to do so we will talk with an

influencer that has a lot of reach for a specific game so if it's our six Pangu might be a good example from the g-tube and then we'll do a deal with tango that in essence he becomes an ambassador for the products our request from him is to use it just like you would use Waze if you get into your car and you know drive it use it for its value and if we see that the influencer is authentically excited about using the product we know it's going to work and we'll agree on some sort of a fee and move forward with this campaign I think the the magic happens when they're really excited about the product if they're not and they're just you know trying to learn something that they don't really care about it usually does not work and the advantage that they can keep on playing the game that they love like you know when a game wants to get promoted with influencers they might pay you know for our stream or all that

stuff but in essence like if I played r6 now I need to switch to a new game if you know getting paid to promote a new game and my community instead of watching r6 is going to watch another game and this could be great sometimes but it also has risks for me because what if I'm gonna lose audience and you know what if I don't like the game and in time this case you know he's great and really passionate about our six so for that perspective sort of good fit we're also trying to do you know Google Facebook and those kind of things and we're in I would say relatively initial stages of trying to figure out have that scales but well we would usually do in terms of like the content strategy is you use the partnership that we have with these ambassadors to just you know potentially show footage a bit of them using the app or introducing the app and through that I think the app gets you know nice creatives cool credibility that comes with the ambassador and then

later on sometimes good conversion sometimes bad funds so I thought we could kind of shift a little bit the discussion and talk about the kind of exciting recent news and as far as the over wolf expansion via the acquisition of Chris Ford from twitch sorry could you talk about that in terms of like you know you know why did this deal happen how did it happen and what does it mean for your business now and potentially new opportunities for guys like that sure so we wanted to get into the mod space for some time now when we done our pivot and decided to focus on building a framework for operators we saw and we built a lot of components that could be used by mod authors as well and we also think that the market is a little bit broken because if you look at where economies in general and again platforms like YouTube or tick-tock over there creators can make a living off of

their creations and in modding this just does not exist or if it does it at super little scale comparing to the engagement yeah I'm not sure if you could pick that up that I think something like a year and a half ago maybe two years ago there was a big otaku article about the creator of deadly boss mods which is a super popular addon for world warcraft and basically how he's devoting his life for creating something that so many people use in love but you know that doesn't pay the bills so the community really helped there and that was a that was a really nice story but in essence it's a result of something that's broken that we wanted to fix so first from us this is a space that we already would always want to get into and then secondly for twitch after the first acquisition you know for for a company

that is focused on streamers and on you know things like minutes viewed I think curse and particularly the the mods business was a bit of a side business with a team that was very passionate about pushing it forward but wasn't getting enough resources to be able to do that the way they wanted to and you know if I was in the shoes of you know executives at Twitter I would probably do the same because my mic or KPI and my North Star is probably minutes viewed or something along these lines so as a result I think they understood that the community wasn't getting the ideal sort of attention and they were looking for a new home we had a conversation I know we participated in this bit with a couple other companies and luckily we want some I think this is this is the context of why on both ends right certainly when we

look at some of the biggest schemes in the market today whether it's legal legends or battle royale and fortnight these all have all come from mods like but but how do you help monetize that more meaningfully today so that a Brendon green doesn't have to like join a Korean company or go out and like it can just like make their mod or like you know how do you enable that or how do you enable these guys to actually make a living off of off of mods rather than having to start some completely new company sure and you're right I mean one of the reasons we're super excited about mods is that it does it has driven innovation in the industry for so many years and the way we're thinking about this is with curse forage there are a couple of viable business models which we can do I mean first its ads on the website and then there's an app so the app has subscriptions and and an ad slot

and what we wanted to do is to take 70% of all the revenue this generates and to distribute pro rata based on engagement to the Mon offers and we could already this could be an interesting first step in allowing them to you know tomorrow eyes we then thought about you know other business models that could sort of mutually benefit from having authors so for example for Minecraft right a huge modding community for Minecraft on PC and also interesting businesses that do server hosting and sometimes for these servers they would have mods and they would just you know take these mods and install them without really rewarding authors so there could be a synergy in which we use to reach that we have through curse forge to promote their services and in exchange they would share some of that revenue and then through us funnel the funds to the mod author so we would do that like as a

service to the model author so that if your mods are being used in you know this and that server company and they're charging $10 a month from gamers owning these micro servers will follow some of that revenue to you and like that we have a couple we went around we can't really sell mods because that would be against terms service but we could do donations in an easy way one of the tricky parts of you know doing something like a patreon in in modding is that sometimes there are mod packages so you know you might have you know 50 creators that contribute into a single creation and you know you're not going to 50 kitchens that's too complicated and then even if you wanted to do that how do you do that in a way that's fair and that's curated and that is based on you know actual contribution and extra usage and this is one of challenges we we want to face so I think it's gonna be a long road really figuring this out but this is what we have in mind in that for you are these two separate

worlds or does the Chris Ward stuff with overall wolf does that is that something that you're viewing is an opportunity I've talked about a little bit but I haven't really found you know we're talking network is gonna gonna fit and that's in that world over in mods you know we've never really engaged it with mods before so TPD I guess on that one okay I just have one final question for you guys which is just kind of looking into the future if you're to think about upcoming trends or opportunities like not from your perspective to in terms of in-game are there any specific games or trends or opportunities that you're seeing and then similar for you early on your side what do you think are gonna be the big upcoming opportunities for creators on your platform maybe starting with you Matt right now our eyes are all on Valentin so we're trying to find out you know what we're gonna be able to do a tolerant we got to get an app out there on overwolf

which is the right API is not available yet so really overwolf is the main way to get an app out there right now 4-valent because they have some advanced with with some data so we focused heavily on that for the past month you making our app with over wolf's help on marketing and such we've I think we've crossed a hundred thousand downloads now already so it's doing very well I expect both with the API of and with over wolf there's gonna be a lot more we can do it's cuz it's gonna be a wild world opportunity with that game so we're very excited with that that's it's probably the main title right now that we're focused on and we're continuing to try to find more ways to improve like our rainbow six app and stuff like that I'm not aware of any bigger games coming out right now that would you know that we're really massively planning for so we're excited for a couple of smaller titles so I thought I know if you saw the hyper

scape game that came out the other day got our eyes on that but we're just always trying to look for good for good games that you know would interest us it's kind of a rule we only want to do games that we play and interest us and just try to find ways to you know do new things one of the new things we did recently with fortnight is the eSports world it's really the first time we're kind of officially hooked into it where we're showing eSports data from there live in game events that's been really exciting because it's something completely new to work on and it's something that we're bringing to our new Fortnight overwolf app that we're currently building as well so we're working a lot of stuff and we're excited now do you have any thoughts on tarkov I noticed that sometimes in terms of like twitch numbers it can sometimes pull up into the top one or talk to you every once in a while but in terms of an opportunity from a staff perspective is that not as it was and we mean we

certainly tried it was a game that we were very interested in but I kind mentioned earlier you know some developers and you tried to hug them they run and that was one that were just not really getting any support out of so yeah yeah you know I think you know companies like Bungie and riot even epic to some degree are you know they're not resisting and they're they're building a community and people are building great tools around their games and so the developers who are not doing that I just wish that they would see the value and because you know we're excited about their game as well so alright sure so first just fall and what matt has mentioned I think one of the big concerns game developers tend to have is just the lack of control of what community could create so then sometimes they would just prefer to say hey we prefer not to engage and you know even

after the course for announcement I had a conversation with some of the folks at Activision Blizzard and you know from their perspective they're actually very happy to have us as a third-party curating content that's been created around their games and the way we work with game developers and game publishers is you know very transparent we always follow their policies always follow their terms and then we do the police work for them around the content curation we we also whitelist prayers on the platform so you can't just download and start developing and then the sugar in your product you have to go through a process so that we can prove you we know who you are we know we can trust you and then we curate everything you create so this is for the you know somehow give someone away apart so I think opportunities I think my biggest thing

is probably gonna be it's probably gonna be modding because this is the the new field we're getting into we live in a world of creators and you know in a creator economy more and more platforms emerge that allow people to make a living off their passion or to make a living independently and I think the modding space has existed for so long and nobody had thinking care of it and I think the opportunity is really hey if you're passionate about a game that is moddable come join us enjoy this journey and let's make it happen because right now we're at a point where we're extremely open to feedback were prioritizing everything we're getting a roadmap figured out in the next three years it's on it's on that it's gonna be fixed you know the opportunities really to participate in this design process and change the future from on author so it becomes a legitimate profession just

like a youtuber is or stream areas alright great well I think that's basically all the questions that we have so do you have any final message for the audience either earlier Matt's or maybe I can also include in the show notes links to your respective products and services but if you do have any final message yeah feel free you can find us that trekker Gigi will be out there we've got popular apps for overwolf all over the place Rainbow six apex violent and we just hope that there will be more opportunities in the future to make these kinds of games so if you're a game developer out there you know we'd love to you know make great apps websites for your game in a way that you're comfortable with you know we have worked in the past with some developers so it kind of you know they're just kind of a spectrum of some want to be really in communication with us and you know see

over viewing what we do and some don't they just want to they don't care so you know whatever fits your style you know we're happy to work with you and we just want to make fun fun brand safe tools for people who play your game so that they can engage not only in-game but maybe when they put it away and they're right on the subway that they can you know still be engaging in some way with your game yeah I mean what Matt said you know if you're a game developer and you're interested to embrace creator community around your game in a way that's safe and controlled and that adds value to your community you know that's yeah sounds good ok well that's it that'll do it thank you very much for your time guys it's great to find out more about in-game apps and mods and thank you very much for your time thank you very much [Applause] [Music]

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