The TikTok of Games

[Music] Welcome to the Navit Gaming Podcast, where it is our mission to explore the business and future of video games. We bring together the industry's brightest builders, investors, and thinkers to keep a pulse on current events, dissect emerging trends and games, share lessons learned, and have a great time. This podcast is also part of Navik's growing ecosystem which ranges from free and premium research to consulting and advisory services. For more information, visit www.navic.co. [Music] This episode is brought to you by Neon. For the first time in our industry, developers can finally have their own DTOC channels to save on app store fees and build closer relationships with players. But there's a catch. Selling direct means either building complex infrastructure yourself or choosing among legacy providers whose inexperience in games or questionable

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technology. Lightseed's team combines deep expertise in gaming with a global multi-stage investment platform and a culture that truly puts founders first. Selected investments include Epic Games, Snap, and Stability AI, as well as game designers and producers who led the creation of titles like Fortnite, Call of Duty, League of Legends, Valerant, Starcraft 2, and many more. For more information, simply go to gaming.lsvp.com or check out the details in the show notes. Hello and welcome to the Navic Gaming Podcast. I'm your new host, Kaylee Moore, and today we're going to explore the trend of instant games on web and mobile that are thriving, especially with millennial and Gen Z audiences who favor quick, snackable play sessions over longer traditional game experiences. We're also going to dive into the impact of AI when it comes to UGC on instant games and how this tooling helps creators build culturally relevant hits. Joining us, we have Charlie Blackstock, who's the CEO of

Remix, which is the Tik Tok of games, where players instantly play games built by the community. Launched just nine months ago, Remix, which rebranded from Farcade in July, already has 1,000 games on the platform, 600K users, and 20 million games played on the platform. Charlie, thanks for joining us.
Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Great. So to kick off, why don't you start by telling me a little bit about your background and what was the spark that led you to create remix? Was there a moment when you thought games should be as remixable as Tik Toks?
Yeah. So, uh, my background is, you know, I went to school for finance and accounting like about around 15 years ago. And then around 10 years ago, I really wanted to get into tech. And a lot of it was because my older brother, who's my co-founder, Bobby, and I really wanted to make games. And so we saw all these code schools popping up around Colorado. And we both went back to code school about 10 years ago to learn software to eventually make games. Um,

and then over that process, we actually discovered crypto and got super into crypto and blockchain uh like technology. And so I went and worked at a big exchange called Shape Shift. Bobby had his company acquired by Kraken. So we're both at exchanges for a while. Uh but we always just saw this pull to gaming and we really thought like crypto and gaming made so much sense and so we had built a couple products around gaming and then uh around September almost exactly a year ago um AI started to become like a bigger passion of ours as well and we just noticed we were using AI more and more for like our daily life as coders. We were using it to help us write software and we had this idea of like what if yeah what if the next generation of content was userenerated games leveraging AI and we kind of had this idea around that last September and we thought it was going to take a lot longer for this future to get here but we thought it's going to need a a couple more years for AI to get good enough to just to completely write and generate

code and uh it's gotten here a lot faster than that and so anyone's really able to write and generate code So, it really just was this like pretty organic process to get in here. And um one of the big things that we were really excited about and inspired us was we we built some of our first games last February, so like a little over, you know, a year and a half ago. And it was like one of the most fun things I'd ever done. Like I I really love the process of building the game. It was really fun launching the games. And gaming kind of felt like this like boys club where like if you didn't work at a big gaming studio, you weren't allowed to build games. And so we really disliked that and making games was so much fun. And so Remix was kind of this or Farcade at the time, but Remix is really this like passion project for us as well to like inspire people to build games. I think there's like this feeling that you're not allowed to do it unless like you worked at these big studios and that's just not true and that's not really the world we believe is coming. So it's really been something that was an amazing experience for us and we want to give to everybody else.
That's awesome. and we're going to dive into both the UGC crypto side of things

um within the interview, but I want to talk about just instant gaming trends first. So, for our listeners, uh Navic did a really good deep dive back in December of last year about just the web gaming market. So, the instant game market is valued at 3 billion this year and it's forecasted to reach 7.5 billion by 2032. And we're seeing embedded games like YouTube playables, chatbased mini games attract just huge and diverse a audiences. Obviously, we know these type of games reduce frictions, and we know that millennials and Gen Z preferred bite-sized content, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you think and what you're seeing. This underlying reason is that people aren't playing. I mean, people are still live, but the younger audiences want something short that they can do really quick. Yeah, I think there's like some pros and cons to it. I think we're all just very busy. Like we all like have this like infinite feed of content being served to us all the time. And I think our ability to want to sit

down and take and just consume long form content is kind of just going down and down and and that's just been the trend over the last decade. And I think there's some pros and cons of that uh in general. And so I think for us a lot of like Remix was also an inspiration for my brother and I where we don't have a lot of time. We have like very little time. And we need games that kind of fit into our lives instead of like trying to fit our lives around games. Uh we spent a lot of time growing up playing like World of Warcraft and those types of games where uh you need several hours to even like turn the game on. You can't really just turn it on and turn it off. Uh and we need something that we thought was more exciting and we didn't really love a lot of the mobile games that existed because I think a lot of the mobile market today feels so um it it feels like so perfect almost. It feels like it's like this formula that every game has figured out like the dopamine hits, the flywheels, the loot boxes, and it just every game kind of feels the same in a weird way where like no matter what the game mechanic is, it kind of just feels like they've

perfected these little like dopamine. It almost feels like a casino like lottery. And so, uh, we were excited by this new generation of gaming where it was unlocked by userenerated content and something that I think fits into people's lives really well, which is remix games. you can play them for minutes or even hours. Um, but they just can fit into your lifestyle. And so that's something that we think is a huge just game changer and paradigm shift into where mobile gaming and gaming has been traditionally. And I think I'm really excited by more bite-sized gaming content.
Absolutely. Okay, let's shift focus a little bit to the to AI in UGC and the democratization of so I'm not a traditional coder. I am high vibe. I've done vibe coding. My company is called High Vibe PR and we've bcoded like reporting tools that we
So it's yeah it's a lot of fun and when I was prepare preparing for this interview I used remix to create a game about uh the lockin trend that we're seeing on Tik Tok. Are youware with it?
Yeah.

And so my prompt was uh I just create a game uh utilizing this lockin trend on Tik Tok. And the prompt you guys gave me was guide an anxious little circle through an endless maze of closing doors and walls. and they did a tap to jump between safe uh safe zones which I thought was really fun. And then we were able to customize it. I did it with a team member too and just to avoid you know social uh notifications. we just like little like little Twitter notification and it was really fun and we were able to do it in I don't know 3 to five minutes right and we actually able to collaborate on it too quite easily and I I think that the big picture of this is that AI tooling is changing gate creation when it comes to UGC the fact that I was able to do this in five minutes as a non-coder is it's a huge game changer right I'd really love to hear your thoughts a little bit more on the big picture of how these AI tools, not just Remix, but

broader, are really going to change who's creating games.
Yeah. I mean, that's that's like the big paradigm shift and and you nailed it, which is you made a game in 5 to 10 minutes or, you know, however long that that took. And it was that is insane. Like a year ago, like that was not possible. AI still wasn't good enough even a year ago to do that. And then the last six months it's gotten so good that you can do that and in the next six months you're going to do even like crazier 3D games with more more complexity and stuff like that. So it's it's completely changing technology in the way that we know it exists when any single person can create software almost as quickly as they can think about it where honestly I think it's going to be harder and more demanding to make video content. I think more people are going to be sa favoring like software content. and you'll be able to make games faster than you could make or post a video on TikTok. And I think that's just where the trend is going. And so the analogy or like the parallel I draw a lot to is

the almost like the YouTuber YouTube moment that we had, you know, a decade ago for consuming video content where everything before was high production, high quality. It took teams and of people. It took millions of dollars and you kind of have this like everything was a Hollywood movie or a Hollywood production and then YouTube came along and everything became more casual. became more free form. And I think it was one of those things that was hard to see because you're like, why would you prefer this over like this really high produced show and it turns out there was uh when you unlocked anyone's ability to create and generate content, you just got such a vast variety of like things that were interesting to people and you just had a lot more surface area for people to find niches and communities and content that they found very interesting. And so I think gaming is going to go through that same revolution where everything's been AAA studios. They've been Nintendo and Blizzard and Activision and all these like really amazing studios making games. But now when anyone create games, I think we're going to see a a total revolution in gaming where people are creating really

fun mini games that are dodging notifications or just like whatever idea you might have, you can just bring it to life in a game. And so I think that's what I'm really excited about is traditional gaming has become very formulaic mostly because it's scary to raise like tens of millions of dollars to build a game that no one has seen before. So everyone kind of falls back onto the proven paradigms. But now if individuals can make a game in minutes or hours that used to take years like you're just going to see the entire revolution of like what might be interesting and like just totally new types of games that we haven't really seen before. Well, one of the things that I really love that you guys are doing and when you can create games so quickly, you really can move at the speed of culture and trust. So, I I saw that one of the web three creators that maybe you work with or maybe he just created content, Luke Franks, who big fans of, launched a game called It's Just a Ball Carrot, which capitalized on the viral moment that happened earlier this month when a middle-aged woman came

and swooped in and snatched the home run ball from a kid at a baseball game. And I think this was just such a perfect example of taking that moment, creating a game. I'm sure there was a a a viral moment to that, you know, with his great content shared. And do you have any other examples of fun trends that you've seen creators jump on?
Well, so Heluk also did another one uh when we showed him remix. The meme at the time was the Abiza Final Boss, which was like a guy in clubbing in Aiza that had this like very particular aesthetic. And so he made like a game around that guy where he's like kind of bouncing through speakers at a club. And I think things like that are just so cool. And someone someone when the Coldplay thing happened when those guy they got caught Coldplay someone not on remix but someone made basically made a game where you have like a magnifying glass and you're trying to like find them in the crowd and that went extremely viral on on X. And so I just think games are just content. I think

like right they've always been I think quoteunquote like movies they've been like that type of quality and because they've been so hard to build but now since they're so easy I just think they're the next generation of content like I just think you know is first text then images then videos and now I think games is the next evolution of it.
I totally agree. But one of the other things that I saw when I was researching uh for this interview that I really loved is your fake game jams around with the pain point of seeing a cool ad and then downloading it and it turns into an entirely different game. Can you tell us a little bit more about the fake game jam? I think this happened. And did you see uh did you see any interesting projects come out of that?
Yeah, we're just going through all the games today actually. So the game jam was just last week and something that I' I love that we do like the game jams are a really great way for you to like basically have a constraint around creating interesting content. So if you're want to come create a game and you're looking for something to do, the game jams are a cool way where you know you get paid or rewarded if you make the

most compelling game. And so we've done game jams with NFT communities. We've done we did stuff with like OpenC. We have a a couple really big ones we're announcing this week. Um, so game jams are just a cool way for anyone to build content around an IP, but the fake game jam was all around the a lot of the origination of the uh the farcade or remix too was uh I love Tik Tok and I find myself doom scrolling and there's always those little fake games and they just are so good at driving you mad like you just like want to try it once or twice. Um, and I was just like why can't I just play the game instantly? And so that's that was another thing that inspired us for the remix uh idea was just the ability to swipe through a feed and play games instantly. And so the fake game jam was really trying to be like very on the nose about something that I think upsets a lot of people which is all these fake games you see in these feeds and they're very good at like getting you to want to go download a game and then that game doesn't even exist. Like that video is an entirely different game

than the game that you go download. And so it's this this thing that I think is really maddening for consumers. And so we wanted to like say the quiet part out loud, which is these fake games, like they're really good at like wanting you to come play them. And so we just wanted to do a game jam around making those games real and getting people to come play those games somewhere because we see them all the time and they're not actually playable. So wanted to solve that problem.
Awesome. Okay, let's shift gears a little bit towards the kind of more of the UGC and creator economy. So I I would love to hear a little bit more about the revenue model of Remix. And I don't think that you guys are doing creator earnings yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's coming in your pipeline.
Yeah. So, technically the creator earnings have come through the game jams um and things like that. So, their top creators have all made tens of thousands of dollars through these game jams already. So, they're they're doing very very well compared to um a lot of people, especially since a lot of these people have never even made games before

and have made tens of thousands of dollars in the first few months. I think it's I'm really proud of that because it's been a really cool way to like pass through a lot of revenue that we're bringing in as a company through the game jams. Um because we usually will do big partnerships to bring those games to life. But um the creator monetization I think is going to look uh pretty similar to I think a a traditional social network. And so, um, we definitely are leaning more towards like a X platform revenue where if you just create the most successful games on the platform, you'll receive a large percentage of platform revenue to you if you just are creating viral games that take up a lot of attention. We want those rewards to feel very automatic and similar to like if you're just, you know, monetized creator on X. I think it's a really cool thing that they've done is just make that so simple where every couple weeks you just get a paycheck because you've made something compelling. On top of that, um we will be launching basically like customizable storefronts

and shops for games. And so when you launch your game, you'll have the flexibility as a creator to create items that you can buy or sell, trade, any of that type of stuff. The reality is the thing that we're we're working really hard to figure out is a lot of these things are mini games and are meant to be maybe only fun for a couple of times. And so we don't want every builder to have to figure out how to make a storefront and manage all the items like those are that's not really matched up with like the use case of our games. And so we wanted a monetization that was very similar sim similar or seamless. And uh I think it's like more akin to like a Twitch subscription or YouTube subscriber more so than a um having that every creator need to build out an entire like miniame with storefronts to be monetized. We really want every creator to be able to monetize very like very quickly. Um, and like one of the main reasons for that is one of the top games on the platform is called Geocrush and it was actually built by my sister. And so I wanted something that like is

works for her. And so we've explored a lot of things like people launching tokens and like all that stuff, but that stuff scares me a little bit when I have, you know, creators on the platform that don't know anything about crypto and I don't want them to have to be like, well, what's my market cap? Why am I managing market cap and trading volume and all that stuff? Uh, I just would love to get paid by people who want to pay me in a way that feels very seamless. And so that's a lot of like what we're trying to balance right now is like making it very easy for the creators that are building very simple games, but then also give the depth if you want items and inventory and stuff like that, giving them the way to do those things.
That's great. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about your distribution. So, as I told you, I made the game on remix, but I didn't go further. Like when I was checking her out, it looked like could I immediately kind of port the game that I created to like a Telegram mini game? How does that work? I know there was talk about you joining like the Coinbase app, too. Is that live now?
Yeah. All that's I think that's one of the coolest parts is when you launch a game, it's immediately distributed to

all of our platforms. And so we're available on Telegram, World uh Farcaster, and the base app. and our mobile app which it we're make like announcing very soon but it basically is alive instantly on all those platforms which we think is just really cool because a lot of our builders are from Barcaster and they don't even know about World and some of their games go viral on World App and so it's this really cool way for builders who like don't even know that we're even necessarily on that network but they're getting gamers from a network they're not even aware of. Uh, so I think that's something that I'm really excited about is you get distribution from all of our platforms just instantly by by making a game on Remix. And so, uh, it's something that we're we want to keep pursuing. We're looking into like even more interesting things like, um, getting things on Steam, which is like the biggest PC platform where we'll have our own native Steam app and your games will now be, you know, deployable and instantly available on Steam. And so we think distribution is just about casting a

wide wide net. And that's what we're trying to do is just like try to have Remix be available on any platform where where we believe there are gamers and then for a builder all you have to do is just build a game on Remix and then your game is available anywhere.
What platform is the most popular right now?
Uh so World app and Farcaster are the two most popular.
Interesting. And how does that compare to Telegram? Is it like significantly higher? I'm just curious.
There it just depends. Uh Telegram, we haven't done any marketing on Telegram. Well, we we haven't really done any marketing in general. It's all it's all of our growth has just been word of mouth. Um and just being on these these networks. But um I think the Telegram is definitely the biggest. Telegram is the hardest to grow in because everything's a little bit more isolated and a lot of the ad networks and some of that stuff feel pretty shady to us. And so, uh, we we love we love that we're on Telegram because we spend

a lot of our time time on Telegram. It's easy to share games and play them instantly. But, um, it's it's just a hard network to grow on because there's not like a social feed or like a network to grow there. So we've had more success on Farcaster and World because there's uh you know World has an app store that we can get featured on and Farcaster is like a social graph and a social network to get be visible on and same with the base app.
Yeah. Okay. So I want to switch into a little bit more uh web 3.
Yeah. So when token get on that one, but dear I mean we've talked about the creator monetization and what that looks like, but is the plan to is the plan to add a tokenization component to the monetization for creators in the future?
Yeah. Uh 100%. So the tokenization is going to be the tokens will be a large part of how we monetize and reward creators for everything. Like I think the big thing that we feel like is

something we've learned as being engineers is monetizing and sharing revenue with a large user base is incredibly difficult in web 2. Um, and this is like some of our past businesses where we wanted to help content creators be rewarded. Having them set up a Stripe account or business accounts and doing passroughs with credit cards and chargebacks, it's just really a nightmare. It's it's really like quite remarkable. it's as big as it is because of how difficult it is to build reward systems that scale to thousands or millions of users. Um it's a really really challenging thing on on web 2 monetization rails. And so that's something we think web 3 is perfect for. And so we want a system where all the spending and rewards are in tokens and all that stuff can happen automatically through smart contracts to uh build rewards and incentives on our platform. And so, uh, as a creator, you'll be able to actually create items and like NFTTS and assets, and you'll be able to do that all with just Vibe coding. You

don't need to actually know how smart contracts work. You don't need how to do any of that. We'll do all the onchain stuff for you for your game. Um, and then the cool part about that is all the marketplaces and all the revenue. It makes it super simple for us to pay out creators and reward creators. And then when we launch our own platform token, the thing that makes it really cool is we'll have things like buyback and burns tournaments and a lot of stuff that takes like small percentages of all marketplace and those fees, they'll go to, you know, creator rewards, buying back our token to uh basically supporting prize pools and tournaments that happen automatically. So those are all things we're really excited about with the tokens is just how seamlessly you can program the money moving through the system. And so that's that's what we really want to do. I think uh we're definitely exploring other things like uh creator coins and things like that where people can invest in like what we're going to call what we'd basically call studio tokens. Um so allowing people to invest and speculate on the best builders in the platform.

The reality of that is we have just been playing that a little bit safer. Again, I think the the biggest use case or the biggest issue with us launching that stuff too soon is we have creators like my sister and people like that who we really want to help monetize their product and having them launch their own tokens is just something that I think is a little too um I think it's a little too difficult for them. Like I just think that's like not the world that they're used to and I think that's something we want to make even simpler than even launching a token. One of the things that I liked about your platform was obviously there was the option already connect your wallet but I found it also to be very web to user friendly like of course there's it's I know who your ambassadors are right platform distribution platforms you're on it but it doesn't scream like web three crypto game to at all and do you want to keep that balance moving forward or do you see yourself like once there's a token launch really going more into the web 3 world or will you still

be a place for web two I don't even want to say developers game develop we can say that
well so it's funny I mean we launched Farcade Farcade was really going to be a very cryptoforward product like the Farcade was meant to be like almost a forecaster only every game was going to have its own token like so every game was going to have its own coin that had its own market cap so like the buying and trading was going to be as much of a part of the product as just playing the games but Farcade just really took off. And the thing that like made us most happy was like the amount of DMs and stuff I got from people being like, I just created I got I got these from two separate people is like I just created a game with my child and it was like one of the best bonding experiences we've ever had and like now that our games been played tens of thousands of times or hundreds of thousands of times like uh this dad's like my daughter comes home and checks the stats every day to see how many people have played it and all this stuff. So I think the reality is is I think remix there's to me there's a very obvious gap in the market with AI and the fact that

people can bibe code and build games and then there's not really a home for those games yet. So to me, I think we pivoted away from being a hardcore web 3 product into something that we feel like is just a great product and we want to leverage web 3 for what we think it really excels at, which again is like these reward systems, moving a money and having like a global user base and monetizing a global user base, uh, which is very very hard to do in web 2. So, um I I think there's a chance where simil similar to mythical games and some of these other things where you can have like proumers or people who are really graduate into like you know the online marketplaces and the buying and holding and speculating on assets within our platform. I think there's going to be room for those types of users in the future. But the other big user cohort we're going after this fall is students. Um and so like high schoolers and college students. We think Remix is just an amazing tool and something that we think we can grow really fast. And so we don't

really want kids launching their own tokens and launching their own marketplaces. We really want but we want them to have ability to monetize their games. And so that's like I think the weird place that we're sitting in, which is we love all that stuff, but we just don't think that's the best use case for Remix at this time, which is like we just wanted to feel more web 2 and leverage web 3 for monetization rails.
What percentage of users have connected a wallet would you say are like OG web 3 users?
100%. They're all They're all wallets. Yeah.
Wow. Okay. Interesting.
Yeah. So I but it is funny because so every everybody has been uh has come from web 3 mainly because again we're on Farcaster and we we on Telegram and some of these other channels we marketed through Telegram our Telegram networks which are all crypto natives. Um, and we're doing like a we're still like pre-TGE, so we're still getting a lot of people who want to to farm points and those types of things. But, um,

it it it's one of those things where I thought we were only going to have crypto native audience, but then all of a sudden a lot of people who made games, they wanted to go share with their friends. And so, a lot of these people have their friends downloading Farcaster Telegram to go play games. And so like even my sister uh Farcaster is her most used app every week, but she's only using it to play Remix like every day. So she's just using it to launch the mini app and play the games. And so we're hoping that our mobile app is actually going to convert even more people on web 2 because that's been the biggest broken part of our flywheel for really growing even more than we have is it's been like a hard hurdle for people who aren't in crypto or are who are not already on these apps is if they want to play remix they've had to go download Telegram and then open the or the remix bot where now they can just go download the remix app and start playing instantly there. When will the remix app be live? And is that a big part of how you're going to be targeting students this year?
Yeah, so the app is officially live on

iOS. The Android version should be coming out in the next month or so. And so I'm really excited about that because that was again like a I feel like a huge broken part to like our growth system was there's a lot of people that we wanted to attract that aren't necessarily in crypto or have these other apps and we felt a little dependent on those ecosystems. So, our iOS app is live and we're going to be making a big push for that iOS app on schools and campuses and uh this fall because we really want to start attracting younger audiences and younger, you know, students. And not only do we think Remix is just a really cool product for them, but we also just believe vibe coding is such a good skill set. Like I do think it's like one of the more important skill sets to be learning is like using AI, prompting AI. And like I I think that's going to be something that uh students are very very good at. And so I it's something that I'm also excited about is not only going to be making games, but I also think they are genuinely going to be learning a skill set that's very valuable.
Absolutely. And I saw that you've done some big partnerships with like web 3

brands like Doodles for instance. Are you also exploring partnerships with web 2 specific brands?
Yes, we have um we have some more very big web 3 brands we will be announcing soon. Um, and we're in talks with like one of the biggest web two brands in the world right now to do some game jams. So, that one I'm fingers crossed. Uh, it's still early stages, but like we're in talks with like brands that I I honestly can't even believe we're we're talking with. Like, it's something that when we were brainstorming this idea a year ago, we were like, wouldn't it be crazy if XYZ wanted to partner with us to like build games? And now we're in talks with them. So, I'm I'm really excited about that. And uh but we we believe this is more than just a web 3 partnerships because a lot of these games are just content. It's just interactive content and there's no reason for them to just be web 3. That has just been our go to market with the game jams. But we're really really excited by the potential IP and brands we're bringing onto the platform.
Nice. All right. And then I have one last question.

So what do you wish someone would have told you before you started building a company at the intersection of AI, games, and crypto? Oh man, there's there's been a lot of lot of painful lessons as a founder. Um, I think the most important thing when you're building at any intersection like this is not trying to be distracted by the shiny the shiny toy. like there's always going to be a project that comes out that seems like it's an overnight success and maybe is easier than what you're building or like there's just it's so easy to get distracted by like the meta. Like it's so easy to be like, "Oh, I need we need to launch a do fun launchpad or like now we need prediction markets in our game because that's what everybody's doing and they're doing really well." And I think it's it's very easy to succumb to like the shiny car and as a founder and I think the reality

is you need to have a lot of faith in what you're doing and that even if it's you know this is an old Steve Jobs quote where you need to have faith that what you're working on like the roads are going to connect in the future and like even if you're going off the well-run path like you need to have faith that what you're building is going to be big and that you love what you're and to not be distracted by what everyone else is doing. So, I think that'd be my biggest advice is if you're building in this space, which is have conviction in what you're building and don't don't let someone else have success success near you be like distract you from what you want to do. Although I do think it's important to keep an eye on like the markets and what people are enjoying, but like don't don't succumb to the what I think very often times is like very shortterm success in in crypto. A lot of these things products don't have a ton of longevity. the meta moves on very very quickly and so you got to have some faith in what you're building that even if you know there's some shiny cars driving by that you'll catch them at some point.

And then to wrap up, is there anything else you'd like the Navic audience to know about Remix or anything exciting coming that we haven't discussed? Yeah, I mean I think uh I think we know we've been around for nine months, but I think the mobile app is is kind of to steal a phrase from our friend Jesse Pollock base is like it's kind of the new day one for us. Like it if we've been building a lot over the last nine months, we feel like we've built something pretty incredible. As far as I know, we're still the largest vibe coding gaming platform in the world. um even if we're just on these other mini apps and but the mobile app is what really feels like a fresh start and like a whole new reimagining of everything that we've been building over the last nine months and so I think there's really never been a better time to get into our product and I think the mobile app is awesome and if you've ever wanted to build a game I just really don't think there's ever been a better time to explore this creative outlet and it's it's just an entirely new world that we're entering into with AI generated software so uh It's still in

very early days and I just would encourage everybody to check it out. And also to be persistent like this stuff changes so quickly that like if things were hard now like building a game was too hard or you didn't like it, check back in again in a few months because it might be completely different and way easier. So uh definitely check us out. The mobile app is live and we'd love to get your feedback.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, Charlie. We really appreciate you having the podcast and we look forward to building more games.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Awesome. [Music]
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or contact us to learn about our wide-ranging consulting and advisory services. Again, that is www.navic.co. [Music] Thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.