The First AI Game Creator's Brutal Truth About Game Dev

Hello everyone and welcome. Today, we're going to talk about something that I think is going to have a massive impact on the games industry. And while there's been a lot of talk about AI and its impact to content in terms of like generative AI for art, for content assets, for data and analytics, for how it could potentially be applied to things like live ops, I think there's been less discussion, and I would even say less impact on code and on the development side itself. And there's a lot of noise and a lot of different opinions and thoughts about AI in gaming right now, and especially in terms of this aspect, in terms of code development. So, today we have with us who one of the guys who has been very early in AI and has a very impressive background, has had a lot of success with the leverage of AI in games, and that's Ron Mo. Welcome, Ron. Uh thank you, Joseph.

Thanks for jumping on. I think we're going to talk about a lot of things today that I have a lot of interest in and where you've got a lot of depth. For our audience, Ron, you are the CEO of Proxima, but before you started Proxima, you led product teams at EA, working on The Sims and other mobile titles. You've also done stints at YouTube, so you're very familiar with video and content, as well as BCG. So, you've got probably a greater strategic depth and strategic lens in terms of how you view the games industry. And I would say that the other thing that makes Ron, that makes you so special, is that you were very early in the leverage of AI in games. When you launched a very successful game, Suck Up, in the end of 2023, I believe it got over 100 million plus views on YouTube, and you were very early there. I'll let you talk more

about any anything I left out in terms of your background and what you're currently doing. It'd be great to turn that over to you. But, the one other thing I do want to talk to you about is a blog post that you wrote, The Courage to Do Nothing, which talks about timing, intentionality, and like how you should think about because every startup does not have infinite resources. So, I think all of us have to really be careful and intentional. And in my view, I skipped out on crypto, skipped out on metaverse, but I've always felt like AI was it, and more recently I've gone all in on AI and what wanted to hear your thoughts on that. But, let me stop in terms of you and your background, Ron. Is there anything else that you think it'd be good for the audience to know? I I think that's an amazing summary of my background, better than I could have done myself. So, appreciate it, Joseph. I think this is pretty much captures it. We'll say I run a company called Proxima. We're not an AI game company, though one of our first games uses AI at runtime. So, Suck Up, as you mentioned, is a game

that uses AI in PCs, String Play. But, for myself, I don't see Proxima as a AI company. It's a games company. And what that means for me is to make the best entertainment experiences for our customers, whatever the tooling and whatever the method can be. And so, we're agnostic to all the tooling, we're agnostic to how that, you know, what that experience is built, but we are very, very focused on the actual player experience, which is, at the end of the day, a very human experience. And so, even though today we're talking about potentially how do we use some of these AI tools in development, I think from my perspective, the first thing that comes to mind is how do we build a human human experience, especially in this day and age, because it's becoming more and more important to do that. But, how do we leverage some of these tools to do it? Very, very happy to talk about that today. Right. And so, maybe we could like if you were to characterize your thoughts as far as And I want to

actually go into a lot of depth on the production and the the actual code and development side, but maybe ahead of that, one of the things that you just mentioned is you're not necessarily in like a lot of companies are calling themselves AI native companies or really trying to market their their alignment with AI, probably so that it's easier to get funding, but like how would you characterize, I guess, the two aspects here that we're that we're talking about? One is AI's impact on player experience is like how you kind of thinking about that, characterizing that, and then we can kind of jump into more the the coding side after after that. Yeah. So, I think Suck Up, for reference, is is a game that is about comedy, right? And so, the you the AI becomes neighbors, you play as a vampire, you try to trick them into getting in, you can eat them, there's police, and so it's a it's a comedy game. But, the focus of that game is really not about AI, even though AI plays a major role. It's about the players and the content creators who play that game, which is, you know, we

provide a canvas, or let's say a stage, for the content creators to create drama, to create comedy. And you just couldn't create that kind of comedy without basically a foil, right? And and that foil couldn't have been created without using generative AI. And but but the focus has has ever been very, very player-centric. What What is that player motivation that couldn't be satisfied before? After Suck Up, we had a a lot of co-founder or founders come to me from other companies say, "Hey, you know what? I'm going to build The Sims or using AI. I'm going to build replace The Sims with X, but with AI." But, the question is really why are you doing that, right? You could have AI that potentially behave similar to The Sims, but what is the player motivation that's missing from, for example, in a game like The Sims that you need to use this technology to to create a better user experience, and what is that user experience? And that's where I think a lot of the AI, quote-unquote AI native studios really miss, because

you start with the technology rather than what is the player motivation. And for games we build, we start with, "Hey, how What is it that players want in this particular moment in time?" And often the case, you don't need AI to do it. Actually, I would argue in the vast majority of the case, you don't need AI to be in there in the game experience for it to be an amazing experience. And and it's very likely that the next thing we build will have very minimal any AI experience, because it's just that's not the starting point we have. And so, we're I think at this point we're just an agnostic on the technology. I think there's amazing things both what we can do in runtime and certainly development, but there's also a lot of things that it does very poorly, in at least in runtime, which is during the play experience, that actually made it unsuitable for a lot of games. And so, we're just very eyes wide open about it and not, you know, we we've been through the metaverse craze, the crypto craze, the AI craze, to say, "Hey, we're a AI game studio or a crypto game studio or something." No, we're just a gaming studio for games in whatever the best

way is possible. And I think like to your point on player experience, I do feel that there are some studios, and without calling them out specifically, where it's kind of like the saying about a technology looking for an application, where it does seem like the AI is a little bit forced in some cases. And so, to your point about really being very to to the post that you wrote, being intentional about where you use it. So, actually, one other question I just thought of as you were talking, before we jump into code and and using AI for for development itself, I also wanted to to like because I think our audience is probably looking for things that are very practical and things that they can do right now. Could you maybe just like high-level characterize what does your team look like? And how is your team actually using AI? So, whether it's a PM or producer or however your team is structured, or maybe it's on the marketing side, or, you know, and and then obviously you're doing stuff in

development. It'd be great to to understand how you guys are actually using AI in substantial ways today. So, I think we're The short answer is I think the only place we're using AI to help with development is probably in in the code. Um and that is also only for code that is, I would what I would call like more boilerplate. You just have to write it, right? We're very, very careful not to have it infiltrate any creative decision and any creative element of the game. Okay. And that includes design, that includes art, that includes anything. So, we do not use AI for any kind of art, and we don't use it for helping designers. And that's the reason
for concept? No. No.
Oh, okay. And and the reason for that is because my world, my view, and we're fairly early in this basis is that

this tool is going to create a abundance of content because of how easy it is to make content with this tool. And so, the distinction as a content studio is really about the quality of your output as in terms of both how good it is, but also how creative it is, how does, you know, how human it is in the design. And so, it would actually be you you know, impediment to say, "Hey, look, I'm going to go generate some AI art or I'm going to go generate some AI brainstorm design." Because it's just a it's very average, I would say, right? And anybody can do that. And for us in this particular time, when even though we are leaning more into AI to assist us in the engineering side of it, we want to be very careful that as everyone else is using it for creative endeavor, that we're not, and we're focused That's the thing that But, it I could be wrong, but that's the philosophy that we have. Okay. Well, I I guess just anecdotally

just speaking to the folks that in the games industry that I know of, it does seem like there is a fair amount leverage for art, for concept, for prototypes, for for animations, but not for like final, but like especially for 3D, but Yep. I think in 2D there are there are some companies using animations in production. Yeah.
And then also like I would say the heaviest use I've seen is in data and analytics. Right? So the ability to not have to have a data analyst that is constructing SQL queries or developing dashboards and things like that.
I mean, the games that we have are still fairly, you know, when I worked at EA we we have a billion dashboards and SQL queries that we can pull. Right.
AI is great at doing the lift for writing the SQL code and it's great for writing a lot of code, but that's not a creative endeavor, right? So if we ever get to the point where we build a live service game in which we need to pull SQL queries or manage databases, yeah, of course we'll just we separate very clearly what is a creative decision and what is a creative output, which is

entirely human to what is something that's maybe more wrote, like writing a SQL query or something which could be automated. Right. Okay. Well, let's get into coding and I actually think that and the question I want to ask you is like how has that changed for you in terms of like what what does your workflow look like from a development perspective and and then we there's a lot of other things we can go into because I and I definitely like to ask you some questions because I actually think it's very difficult to use AI for game development, but let me hand it over to you and it'd be great to understand how AI is leveraged in your code development workflow. Yeah. Let me just give you an example of what it can do and like or I'll I'll show you because I think we were talking about before, right? There is one side that says it doesn't do anything and you should never use it in in coding and the other says if you're on Twitter it is the God's gift to Earth.
[laughter]
And the reality is it's often somewhere in between and what I found is you know,

I'm not a technical founder by by training. I come from a product and business background, but I have engineering experience in my courses before, but but more importantly I think it's just important for not just the engineers, but the founders of in the studio heads to be I would say technically literate so that you can actually you understand programming, understand the code structures that you know, it's you can evaluate because some of these things have business implications, but let me let me just share something maybe as a kind of as a as example of what it can do and what it can't do. So here is this is if you haven't seen it, you should probably get into code more. This is this is just Unity and what I created is just this very very basic scene, right? You have a box and you have a stand, let's call it, right? The gray things. And say I want to write a code that grabs this box and put in my hand, right? This is a

very common thing you would do in games. And so I just quickly wrote it, right? So this is what it looks like. Right? Very very quick. I click it, it just grabs and put it into my hand. Nothing nothing special. This is probably something that a junior engineer learns in the first day of or first month of engineering class, right? This is not special. The code for this and this is only for obviously the engineers will look at it and and laugh, but for people who are running studios who may not be as technical, the code lives in in the scripts. So and the script is you're using a different program development environment. So this is one particular is called Rider, good for C#, which is the code that you need to use Unity for. And so this is basically the code that's used to grab that box. Right? And where AI lives is in what's called the terminal. So this is I have Claude installed with maybe an index or deep seek or whatever else you want to

use. And essentially what it does is it kind of goes through your code library and is able to edit and create files and make suggestions or help you debug right here. So you're not co you're not copying code snippets into prompt window online like you know, the chat. gpt.com to to paste that. So if I say, hey, you know, what I'm just going to do me an example. I say I'm grabbing a box. Um but I want to make a transition in terms of in terms of how I grab that box. I want box to spin while grabbing it. To move on a slurp line. And I'll talk about what that is. To have a a bounce so that if the experience feels static.

And what it does is it looks through your code and this one I should have specified which script I'm actually running in. And but essentially it it reads through your code and it creates new code or updates code that allows you to do those things. And for the sake of our conversation, I'm just going to take a little bit of time, call it 2 minutes, 3 minutes and it's going to make a whole bunch of suggestions and you can accept the changes, in which case your code basically changes. For [clears throat] the sake of our conversation, I did this beforehand. So on the right, the left is this code that if I click I'm grabbing it. On the right is what I asked the AI assistant to help me with and this is what it looks like. Right. Okay. And for people who haven't done

engineering, this is I would call it like again, like very very junior engineering like first day of class. This is probably pretty intermediate and advanced. And this is very similar to if you were to work at Respawn for example and you know that hey, what makes Respawn's Apex Legends or Titanfall, you know, what feels good is the feel of it, right? The gun feel, the the the recoil, the slight recoil, this and that. And a lot of those things that make game feel good is very complicated math. Right? So when you look at something like this, you're like, oh yeah, this kind of feels more satisfying, right? It's fun to click and look at rotate, but there's a lot there's a couple things that this thing is doing right now, right? So one, it's coming at me, but it's not coming straight at me. It's actually coming at a slurp line, which is moves in a parabola. Right? It accelerates and decelerates as it comes towards me. It rotates and even

the rotation of that is accelerating or decelerating. Right? So if we were to look at the code and and again, this is not a coding class or anything, but I just want to highlight some things. So this is you know, one part of that code, right? Which is basically how this thing is, you know, it's spinning. You notice it's spinning horizontally, right? And so one is this is a spin, but the acceleration of spin is on what's called a sign curve. So you remember going back to middle school or high school, you have those sign curves, right? And the reason why you're using that is because you know, it it models acceleration and deceleration very very well, right? And then it uses something called a quaternion, which is a Unity function for how do you control object rotation in 3D space, but it uses four basically imaginary numbers. It uses four variables, which accounts for the coefficients. So it's a fairly complex concept and certainly somewhat somewhat if you're a junior engineer, you never

use a function like this. And so I think from my side you see this is what what the code is doing in the background. It says that you want to go edit it. I I'm not going to edit it at this point, but just to show, you know, what it is. And and and that's really what I think is is really interesting and certainly not the only application is before, let's say if I were a junior engineer, I say and my studio boss says to me, hey, I want you to make gun play feel good or I may want to make you use to to grab a box feel good, you might struggle, right? This thing may take a senior engineer a couple hours to build. It may take junior engineer 2 weeks to even learn what a quaternion is to be able to do. Because you just you just don't even understand what the function is. Today, you you basically have an engineering teacher who's there with you and because you understand code, even though you might not be able to write it yourself, you can understand, okay, it is moving on a slurp line or actually I want it to move on a slurp line. It is rotating,

the acceleration is based on a sign curve. It uses actually I should use quaternion as a function. And it basically levels up a lot of engineering capabilities to what is possible. Right? Some things where you had to work at Respawn for 5 years to really understand could potentially with the help of some of these coding assistants, you can do in much shorter time. So it really accelerates what is possible, especially for small teams. I find that of all things to be fascinating. There's a lot of this kind of looks amazing, but I I'll tell you a lot of downsides to using these coding tools, but this is maybe an example of what it actually can do. Right. And I think one of the things that you mentioned is that there are these two schools of thought. Like there are the AI maximalists, which I would put myself in in that category that think that AI can do and will have a massive impact on gaming. And then there are the skeptics, the doubters.

And I think that part of why a lot of people are doubtful about the impact of AI, especially in code development, is and I actually just had a conversation about an hour ago with a technical director at an Indian gaming studio and he's like, "Oh, yeah, AI doesn't work. We tried it." But I I think like maybe something you could talk about at least and you could feel free to disagree with me, but I kind of feel that the reason why we have some of the doubters or the skeptics is because I think that the use of AI is as the the guy who kind of taught me how to do AI development is that he kept saying it's a skill issue. And and so like the people who don't know how to plan appropriately, scope, set constraints, they don't know how to like it's like, "Oh, wait, should I and I don't know how intentional you are, but I think the key concept that

people don't understand is that using AI is probabilistic, right? And so the AI only knows what you tell it. And so I think especially for more complex game projects, if you don't know the architecture, if you don't know the interfaces, if you don't know how to inject your interface file, so that the AI is aware of that, you if you don't know how to tell the AI no heap allocation, no this, no that, like that intentionality and they're just like, "Oh, do this." And it doesn't work then they're like, "Uh, it's the AI's fault." But maybe you could speak a little bit about that in terms of like some of the risks and some of the dangers or kind of like the the caveats when you're trying to use AI for game development because I personally think especially using AI with Unity, I think it's a high-skill for me, I consider it a very very high-skill endeavor.
[laughter]
I I think so. I think I think that for anyone, I think there's two parts,

right? One is the intellectualization of how to use it. I think there's one is also the emotional element of, "Hey, look, this thing is very very disruptive and I rather not have it disrupt what I'm doing, right? I like what I'm doing and I don't want it to change." which is very very understandable. So, I think when anyone talks about, "Hey, either it's really amazing or it's garbage." I think a lot of time it's a lot of emotional triggers that, you know, people [clears throat] then kind of intellectualize as it doesn't work, right? But there are a lot of issues. So, I'll give you one, right? Which is when we were early on trying to test it, well, how good is this tool? And so, what people talk about live coding, right? And so, I was like, "Well, let let me see if I don't look at it at all and I just live code, what would I get?" And I said, "Hey, let's go build a 2D map tile map like Stardew Valley, maybe we'll give me give me a field and some give me interface or even like put a health bar, right? On top of my on top of my head." Yeah. And it does those things and if you're not an engineer or

technical enough person, and say, "Wow, this is amazing. It's magic. It works, right? You can click play and and there's a health bar on top of of my head." When you look at the code, the way that it's drawn is like it uses uses like tools that are totally impractical. Right? So, the example was like, let's say if you go to MS Paint, right? And you say, "Draw me a square." and you would just click the square function, right? And you would draw the square with the square tool. And instead what what the AI would do is they would paint every pixel. If that makes sense. It still looks like a square, but but you're literally hand painting the pixel to be a square. What it doesn't do is Unity has a whole bunch of preset tools. The way that it builds in a component system. And it doesn't really use any of those things in often cases, which is like, "I'm just going to create things from scratch or I'm going to do things that is totally

unconventional and pretty impractical. And also I'm going to build it in an architecture that is very poor for scalability. And when you're an architect and you look at it and you're like, "This is this is spaghetti code, right? It's also almost unusable as we scale up." But AI doesn't really you just say, "Hey, look, make potato field." and it did that, right? Technically it it compiles, it works and and and so, but but it's it's unusable for for larger purposes. So, I think thinking about it is to say, "Hey, could a live coder today go into Unity Rider and make a really really great game?" I think it's almost that's impossible, right? Without really understanding code architecture and reading code, it's just yes, you can make you can one-shot a maybe like a very basic snake game or Pac-Man game or whatever cuz those things are very simple, but if you want to move beyond complexity and you don't understand code or tool architecture, you're going to burn a million tokens and and get nowhere. Uh

And and and also like the way that we think about code is like it's like a tree, right? So, it's like you have the trunk of the tree, which is like, you know, your your your overall architecture and you have the branches and you have the leaves, right? Like what, you know, I showed you in terms of grabbing an object, it's like a leaf, right? Like how whether you you spin the object when you grab it or you you teleport it. It doesn't change the overall architecture of the game. It's only like a a small portion of it. And in those cases, the leaves, it's very good to say, "Actually, I want this leaf to be yellow or red, right?" And then they or I want it to spin a little bit, but I don't really know how to use a quaternion. Can you help me do that? But the moment it starts changing the architecture of the trunk of the tree, so that, you know, and it could do that in a way that makes sense, it's logical, but you don't really understand or because it doesn't understand the full context of your game and it just screws up your game, right? And now every time you add to that trunk, it's broken. And so, the time the time it takes for you to fix that is

longer than, you know, it and then especially you're using AI to fix it, it's going to make changes somewhere else, right? Yeah. And now you don't really understand that changes in other places and suddenly you got yourself a quite a bit of a mess in terms of technical debt. So, that is also very very possible, right? So, it it's really about how do you apply it, where do you apply it and how strategically do you use this tool? Because it looks quite amazing in some ways, but it's, you know, very very damaging in other ways. Yeah, and I think we can leave like the how to vibe code with a high-skill level so that you can actually potentially use vibe coding for production code rather than just a throwaway prototype for maybe a a different session or whatever, but I think for the purposes of our discussion today and with you, I think it'd be great just to like maybe even get your take since you you now have been using AI for for development, Yeah. how would you characterize Well, one, it'd be great to just fully characterize what it

what does your tool chain look like? What does your workflow look like? And then how would you characterize where we are today as far as what's possible to do? Yeah. And like what how would you characterize the productivity gain for for you personally or for your team? I mean, the the tool chain isn't actually that different from what people use already. So, we use Unity for our engine, but you can use Unreal or Godot. Um and then we use for the IDE, the development environment, we use Rider, but you can use Visual Studios or, you know, other other development and then basically the the coding assistant just plug into the, you know, the the development environments, right? Or the the terminal. And then why do you use Rider? Like instead of just like straight terminal or or a different IDE like Cursor or whatever? I I just thought there's not it's just preference. It's kind of like why do you use Microsoft Word versus you know, Notion or Google Docs? They all do the same thing, but Rider is good for C# in

particular. You know, it understands the libraries better and so we use Rider, but maybe more senior engineers actually prefer something more uh kind of um streamlined than than Rider is, but but usually then that IDE integrates with, let's say, Cloud Coder Code X or whatever it is. And then and then basically that that those coding agents then sit at kind of the development environment level. Because we don't use it for our pipelines, I don't know. I'm sure we could we do something, but it it is something that's intentional because the types of games that we want to build are more like, I would say, system-driven games or we're not building like tons of levels anyway, right? And so, it doesn't I want it to be very intentional human-made as opposed to AI-generated. I don't want to call it slop, but but AI-generated stuff. And I think it's possible, it's just a conscious choice that we choose not to do. Right? And and then in terms of the characterization of productivity gains, and just to set a baseline, I would say a lot of the folks

that I talk to in Silicon Valley kind of like the characterization is if you know what you're doing like it's kind of like two two schools, right? Like if you're really good at vibe coding, you become a 10x 100x engineer. If you suck, you're like either 1.1x or 0.5x because you're just messing stuff up. But for games and for you in particular like with based on your real-world experience using this, how would you characterize your productivity gains? And I would say a common thing I'm hearing in Silicon Valley is a feature that used to take 2 weeks now takes 2 days. Yeah. I I think it's actually um it's a complex question, right? Because the the little example I showed you, um, if I were to not me, but like let's say if an engineer were to code it, you know, it would take like a senior engineer maybe like a day, right? It would take a junior engineer 2 weeks to learn what it is, and it would take

these agents and plus you, you know, manipulating some variables afterwards maybe like less than half an hour, right? And so you say, okay, less than half an hour versus 2 weeks is definitely a more than a 10x increase function. But that's a very very It's specific example in which it it works very well. Then there's also cases where it doesn't, right? Like let's say if you're re- re-architecting your code base and you really have to make sure you understand, right? You know, AI isn't doing like weird to your code, and you want to architect it and you want to do this way, you might not actually want to use it where actually using it might actually slow you down. Right? And so it's not just about the how good an engineer it is with this tool, but also where the engineering is is working, right? So again, if we use the tree analogy, if you're trying to put on a new leaf or make the leaf change colors, that is maybe 5 10x, you know, increase in efficiency. But if they want to change it the shape of the trunk, rebuild it, refactor it to to make it more You have to do that, too,

but you better be in the driver's seat, right? And that you would take a lot longer to to do that and make sure you're even if you're using AI, you're really really auditing what it's doing and you're really containing it to to what it's doing. And and sometimes the byproduct of like putting all the context in and and supervising it and making sure it doesn't change and then it breaks and you might as well just do it yourself, you know? And so it it I think it really depends on the context, not just the engineering skill set. Got it. And so, the way that you're characterizing it, it does seem like it's a little bit more muted from at least, you know, and and definitely we we and Yeah. I guess we could go into like some of the difficulty of why game development and why Unity in particular is sort of AI resistant, but so it sounds like what you're saying is today it's kind of a limited advantage for you. Like maybe it's giving you a little bit of a speed up. I don't know if you would characterize it as like

maybe 20% or something like that. No, no, I mean, look, I think there are things in which it would it's massive help, right? Like, you know, and this by the way, the example I'm showing you is obviously relative, but it does it it draws from our our use cases, right? Like in those cases, it is like a 20 30x speed up. But but those cases are not like 100% of my time.
Right. But I I guess on an overall basis, which you
On an overall basis, I think I think the for me, cuz I'm not the one who's coding it, right? Because there there's more than, you know, coding and development. What what a lot of our time is also spent on is on iteration, trying to find the fun, do all these things. And that still takes time, right? You know, you still need a day or two to play it to really deconstruct it and then to figure out what is it they want to build, how do we retweet the features or something like that. And once we go into engineering, maybe then that shaves an X amount of time depending on what the retweet is and how close the leaf it is versus how close the branch is. But that day or two of prototyping or not prototyping of

playtesting of figuring out what to do or the long-term mapping of it, that doesn't shave that. Like, you know, that doesn't, you know, AI is not going to play a role in this ever, I hope. Right. And so I I think it's, you know, I'm I'm very pragmatic about it, right? I think there is people who say it doesn't do anything, which I think is first of all false. It's This thing is it's incredibly powerful. But then there's also people who say I'm going to 5x my productivity on everything, which maybe they're looking for a job, right? I don't know what they're doing.
[laughter]
Or what they're looking for funding. Yeah. But is I think it's it's probably pretty hard unless you're you're you're just by putting everything. You say, "Hey, can you make me Stardew Valley?" Well, and yes, it's going to like 100x your productivity, but a lot of the code will be unusable as you scale up. Yeah. What about your So, there are as far as some of the AI maximalists, I think Elon Musk famously has said that he thinks by the end of the year AI just goes it doesn't even generate the code,

it it makes the binary itself and then Boris, the creator of Claude Code, has suggested that by the end of this year that AI will basically be generating all software. Yeah.
But if if you were to extrapolate extrapolate based on your own experience, yeah, where do you think we are for game development by the end of the year or maybe even a little bit further out, when when does it get to the point where it becomes because I think right now Yeah. AI does have a limited impact on game development. It does have an impact, but it's a little bit more limited unless except for some areas like data analysis and things like that as as we had talked about, but what's your outlook? When when is it When when do you game developers When are when are they out of a job?
[laughter]
I mean, look, I I think the even today, right? Even if the tools don't get better. I look the the people who I think are going to most benefit are the

people who what I would call technically capable designers, you know, which are designers because the limiting factor for games is not code, it's the creative output of the design, right? And we have to assume that is possible. Right? And and and because even without coding agent, the barrier to building games is lower and lower. You got the engine You got the the engines that does most of the physics stuff, right? You got the publishing that, you know, that's already taken care of with Steam and and and the app stores. And you had a whole bunch of, you know, stack overflow or you're buying Unity code or then you're you're kind of manipulating it. So all that is is there. And now you have coding agents which make coding even easier for for people who are somewhat technically minded. And and what that means is that like you can have a like let's call a a designer who understands code, but not very good. He would need two engineers to be able to realize his vision 3 years ago. Today, he might not need anymore. You know, but but he has to be somewhat

technically capable. And so that is already fundamentally changing how game But if you're like, you know, either you're a senior engineer before, so yes, it's going to speed up your productivity, but you still need to figure out what you're designing. If you're a business guy, you have to learn everything, right? But But I think the next step is So, today I think it's already very very powerful. I think the next step, which is I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, is you want it to manipulate You want to sit not just at the code level, but at the engine level, which means like, you know, you can create and not just like scripts, but you can attach things. Let's say you're you're using Unity, you can attach components to to objects, you can do these things, which are not they're not code, but they're they're they're larger systems, but you need to be able to work within that system, which is not hard, right? You You synthesize You're not easy, but it's still possible, right? Whether you use MCP or whatever to connect with Unity or not us, but the coding dev companies.
I I don't think many people are having much success with MCPs and Unity, but

at least not not yet. Not yet.
Yeah, and and that would happen, right? There's no reason to suspect that it wouldn't. That would make development It's a matter of time, yeah. easier even easier. And and who am I to say what is the acceleration curve of development? I don't want to be a doomer, but I also don't want to be an accelerationist in in in heights test, right? Like I think for me, I'm just more of a realist. It's like, here's what I have today and here's the power of it. If if it becomes more powerful tomorrow, then we would have to adapt. So that's that's my perspective. Ryan, I think you you are taking a pretty practical kind of approach to the environment that we're living in, but if you were to believe, and I do think that development costs drop at least 10x by the end of the year in in in my view. Again, I'm an AI maximalist, so I'm more on the optimistic side. But one of the things that you talked about is the the designer potentially not needing an engineer. One of the things that I talked about last year during GDC was

was about something that I called the organizational meta, but just for simplicity for our audience, kind of like the idea that roles would compress. And it seems like that's becoming more evident today that that maybe the engineer has to be more than an engineer. Like maybe the engineer has to be an engineer and marketer, engineer marketer, designer. And that one role would potentially be multiple roles. What are your thoughts on that? Like if we let's say we do get to that point, MCP with Unity works, game development becomes dramatically easier, development costs drop 10x. But if you can step back in time and put your BCG hat on, what do you think happens to our industry or to the winners and losers in this new environment because we live in a Darwinian world, right? How would you speculate? I I would say, you know, I would I I used to work at YouTube, right? And and and you look at the the video industry

with the music industry, the barriers to entry has already collapsed to zero, right? I can record myself eating breakfast and post on YouTube tomorrow and that that would add more content to the platform where I could go on SoundCloud, record some things, and post it, and and I would have there's more music in the world. And what you see in those industries is it doesn't mean that everything collapses zero. It doesn't mean that everything has no value, but it does But But what it has is that it has extreme power. Which is the top content creators on YouTube or on Spotify have the vast majority of attention, and the long tail has almost no attention. And I think this is happening It's already happening in games whether we use AI or not. And And it is going to continue to happen, which is you're going to have hundreds of thousands of uploads onto Steam or app stores every year. And most of those uploads will be hobby projects or low-quality or flat meeting breakfast in the morning, and it will have absolutely zero attention. You will have you may sell like five copies

because your mom decided to buy it, right? But otherwise, no one's going to see that. And you're going to have a small set of people who are going to disproportionately capture attention. And there's two ways to do that. One is you're very, very big. So, in the in the video world, this is the equivalent of you're you're premium television you're making in Game of Thrones or something, right? You know, really, really you're prestige television. And the gaming world is you're GTA or you're FIFA or something, and you can command attention. And attention still flows to to those games. And on the other side is you would have small content creators. That's kind of like the like the Mr. Beasts, right? Like the PewDiePies of the world that, you know, like Markipliers that that would that couldn't have become those personalities if this kind of ecosystem didn't exist. And they make a tremendous amount of money. And the same is true for gaming, where you have guys like who make schedule one or lethal company who've made hundreds of millions of dollars on single developers. And that's possible. I think where it really

struggles is if you're a because it's a power law system versus for it wasn't of you're a 30-50 person studio making a derivative game, so you're not making another me too RPG that doesn't really stand out and it's not going to capture attention. But also you need $30 million to recoup to to to pay for your development costs. I think that's going to be very difficult, right? So, you want to be either the Mr. Beast or you want to be premium television. You don't want to be in the middle. You don't want to be discovered or what. Yeah, there's a there's a couple of aspects to what you're talking about that that I wanted to dig a little bit deep deeper into. And so, to the point that you mentioned about parallel distribution, I 100% agree. I I that's something that's actually been keeping me up a little bit because it's like when development costs drop by 10x, 100x, and the same team can now develop 10 times faster, 10 times the output, but attention is scarce, then yeah, the number of viable

creators in the marketplace are going to drop dramatically. And so, that's one thing that I And we're already going through a rationalization in the games industry, where we went went through this period of excess in terms of funding, but one of the other things that where I thought you were ahead, and one of the reasons I wanted to to talk to you, based upon a conversation we had a couple of months ago, was when you had mentioned that I think you had mentioned that you had hired a head of marketing that had like a million TikTok followers. And when you I didn't say it at the time, but I was like, okay, I think Ron gets it that essentially what's happening is that development costs are going to plummet, output's going to increase, so basically costs are probably going to shift from development to distribution. And so, can you talk a little bit about that? So, was that an intentional choice? And you having come from YouTube and understanding the kind of like the

dynamics of that market, were you intentionally thinking about, okay, we do have to figure out distribution because of AI or what was the Maybe that wasn't intentional, but I kind of felt at that time that maybe you were thinking ahead to this. Yes, I think absolutely. And thanks for bringing it up. I think it is incredibly important today because what is scarce is attention. And all that attention. And when we talk about spending on distribution, I think there is but it's different by ecosystem, right? If you're a mobile gaming studio, you know, it's pay to play, right? You just have to buy ads and do that. But if you're building a PC game, for example, if we are, attention is not paid. Attention is earned. And you earn that through building gameplay that creates attention, right? When we built Suckup, we had zero dollars in marketing cuz we were poor. But we had one guy who who had 100,000 subscribers on YouTube play it, and he got a million views in a day.

And within a week, we had like 30 creators, and within a month, we had the top creators on YouTube who had like tens of millions of followers playing our game. And that's just And the reason is because the game is wired in a way that it you know, it works well for distribution. If I had build it, let's say a Candy Crush clone, and I were to launch it, that game has no, you know, no ability to command social attention, right? Because no one will ever watch it. And And that game is going to struggle if you're going to try to use the same playbook. It is And then it's not just for that too, like if I build a 2D platformer that isn't doesn't have a hook or anything, but it's just not a good 2D platformer, right? Very difficult to capture social attention, right? Not impossible, but very difficult. And the person we And so, we have to think about marketing differently cuz it's not about brand marketing anymore, right? It's about how do you capture social attention? And you know, the person I hired, the biggest You can look at the resume of any person, you say, oh, you you worked at Riot or you worked at Blizzard or whomever. But the biggest indicator

they understand marketing today is can they build an audience themselves? Right? Because until you build an audience yourself, you don't really know how to build an audience. And if someone says, hey, look, I have a million followers on TikTok, it's like, okay, either you're extremely charismatic and good-looking or not, or you understand the way of capturing attention. And that that's really, really important. And it starts in product development, right? Like you know, we're we're we're early development stage, so we're, you know, we're not There's no marketing. It's not like she's going to throw out a million copies. But it's about embedding people with that kind of mentality and attitude into the development cycles so that we understand that whatever we're building has a strong potential to capture attention. And And that's I think it's it's critical in in today's world. Right. And one of the things that I I say a lot here at the CDO and especially to folks that are at the companies that I believe, and again, I'm an AI maximalist. I'm I might be kind of at, you know, one of one of the more one of the people that believes in the impact of AI more more than many others, but I

actually believe that this year is potentially the most impactful year because of the impact of AI in our world and society than any year in human history.
[laughter]
But maybe you don't believe that far, but just like trying to characterize the new world that's coming this year because of AI, how would you recommend Now, I kind of actually want to go back to this blog post, which I really appreciated, the post that you wrote called The Courage to Do Nothing, where you talked about how lions may not attack like a gazelle or whatever. They're going to be very intentional about because they have to conserve like to survive, you have to conserve energy. As a startup, as a game studio, there's all this stuff happening, you have to understand where you're going to deploy your resources, where are you going to be smart about what you do, where you invest time into,

whether it's learning AI for game development, whether it's in trying to understand distribution, in like investing in influencers or things of that nature. We're early in 2026. I believe, again, this will be the most impactful year in human history. How would you recommend other game studio founders or teams thinking about you're the lion, how do you think about your intentionality? How do you think about where you deploy your resources or how do you survive in this world in which there's only going to be a few winners probably coming out of 2026, in my opinion? Yeah, I think the the way I I would look at it. And by the way, the article, and thank you so much for bringing it up. It was basically I talked about this concept of it's in Chinese philosophy, it's called way, which means to to do nothing. It's Taoist philosophy, means like, you know, if there's nothing to do, don't do anything. And we both lived We were both VC-funded game studio founders, and we

know I think our VCs are amazing, but it's the pressure of that ecosystem, which is you just got to do, do, do. You got to, you know, the the amount of FOMO, the amount of productivity, hustle, the hustle of other founders. And at some point, it just And for me, it just felt very, very overwhelming, you know? And I think we are at a time And I live in Silicon Valley, right? And And the idea is like, you you can't rest. You you know, you just got to work 80 hours a week. You got to do the next year. Who knows? I maybe But what do I do know is that I I don't know if this year is the most important year ever for AI development in the world. What I do know is that this year is probably a year when which more people than ever burned out. Um and I think that's even as I look across my peers and also my friends who are even not in the gaming industry, and and the sense of anxiety and dread and and like, well, I have a job, and and you know, my company's asking me to work double, and I got to, you know, I got to learn all these things to keep up, right? Like every, you know, there's a there's a new thing here and there and

there. And I think it's really, really And I, you know, we went through that. Even after Suckup, it was like, okay, how do we sell it? How do we sell it? How do we use it? You know, can we use AI to make, you know, other kind of forms of entertainment stuff? And it And it was hard and and and try But I think kind of probably need to step back and say, wait a minute. Let me Let me This is going to kill us, right? Whether we made a good game or not, I I don't know, but it will kill us if we go on this path. And the intentionality to just almost sometimes for me to tune out the noise, right? Because the noise is either very deafening. It's like, we are going to like, we're not going to have game studio. Everyone's going to generate world models and we don't even need game studios and and then on the other side of this is crap you know and it's just like if if no one is giving money Hey I think that's like completely but two it creates anxiety and drives like how does it but also you're not doing anything that is better or more right you're just spinning your wheels faster and you're

jumping onto whatever trends like is it crypto gaming is it metaverse is it is it is it UGC is it is it AI is it you know and for me it's like I I do think this thing is very very powerful but I will take it one step at a time right I will you know I I will evaluate you know today we doesn't work very well with engines and I'm sure there is a day tomorrow that that it will and and when it comes then I will look at this tool and say okay I will then need to change my development process because of it but I'm not going to worry about it until until it comes right I'm not going to prepare my stress my anxiety levels or anything like that and the second I think the way I think about it is like if everyone is going this way right which is I'm going to lean into agentic AI build everything and I'm going to go the other way which is to say yes of course I'm not stupid I of course I will use you know the tools and to to to to power myself and the team but I will take a very humanist approach to say okay you know in a world in which everything you know the the amount of content that's being created is is just tremendously high what is the separator

is um the human element of what you're building right in terms of design and can you meet that need right and the need for me as I look at it today is anxiety it's stress you know it's there's a reason why I think a lot of these decompression games are are more popular today than Fortnite right or League of Legends because people are just too stressed to play League of Legends today and that changes consumer behavior right and that's still AI it's AI because of the anxiety created by you know by by the that that we're in but but that's the part that I want to you know what I'm going to sit back and I'm going to look at this space and think hmm
[clears throat]
you know interesting and the other thing I I did is like you know everyone you know we we talked about like 10x productivity and stuff one of the things we used to do you know as a company even this is before I had just our engineers who were amazing but you know we would get like a playtest and I would you know and I would play with the designers and we would figure out what the

you know the the changes are and then make the changes like let's say if they send the build at 5:00 p.m. we play at 8:00 p.m. we send the feedback and by next 8:00 a.m. the morning the iteration so the iteration cycle was crazy fast but it was also unsustainable and one of the things I realized is like actually we could have these iteration cycles that are very fast but when you then step back after 3 months you're like holy crap we went down the entirely the wrong direction you know yes like micro wise we're we're making we're running a lot right we're the iteration cycle was crazy we're 10x in everything we built but we're going down the you know vector right we're going down the completely wrong space and now what I force myself to say is like okay we have a build I I think I know where we want to go but I'm going to go sleep on it for the next day um even if that slows down development a little bit I want to take my time you know this is the idea of rest of when you you know you want to make sure that this is the right place you're going and does that mean you know we'll ship in a a year and a half versus a

year yeah maybe potentially but also I think gives a higher probability that we're shipping the things that you know are right versus you know spinning towards the wrong thing so I I think you know to our earlier discussion about like hey like what is the productivity gain in terms of percentages because those times are kind of like I don't want to say dead time they're AI is going to help that time right and so you know those times are still what they are and they actually lengthen into what what I used to do previously Right it it kind of goes back to the notion of so I talked to my team a lot about the notion of product velocity which is both mag it's a vector magnitude and direction and the point that you that you're speaking to which is like even if you're moving more slowly if you're moving in the right direction which is basically keyed off of essentially judgment and taste then you'll win right and like a bunch of people moving a thousand miles an hour in all sorts of the wrong direction or all to the same

point where where as you've carved out you've counter positioned yourself for example Yeah
then you can carve out a space for yourself Yes because I I I think it goes back to our point of this is a power law right so let's say if you're making if you're building a house which is not a power law thing if you build like an 80% of a house you can sell for 80% of the price right Right in a game if you build 80% of a right game you're going to get like $10,000 in sales if you build 100% of the right thing you might get a hundred million in sales right like it is it is exponentially like you know the 100% to the 80% right and so it almost like you almost have to like make sure you get the 100% versus the 80 because the 80 isn't going to make you any money um and so But you can also make the argument that in a world where if you can reduce development costs by 10x 100x Yeah maybe with the right team right because we've

seen like I I wrote a post a few months actually last year sometime about the studio that were doing really well right that the schedule the schedule ones Battlebit Yeah
Phantasmagoria these small teams of one to 20 people and so maybe you can even exist in the long tail if you can build a community if you can serve a specific niche because your costs have dropped so you can actually deliver a product to a smaller community or something like that
Yeah absolutely I think it's like for sure it's like our our head count is very very low but it doesn't you know by the way I keep it low but I I would imagine the guy who makes schedule one didn't make it in like 3 months right he probably made it in like 2 years or 3 years or something like that but he could afford to do that because he's a single developer same with like Valheim or whatever took like 5 8 years or whatever RimWorld and Stardew Valley and and and these are low you know incredible single developers who have a low cost structure right and and I think it is probably right that

to have a a small number of people that could like a very small number of people which reduces burn so you don't feel the pressure to ship quickly but I think giving that team like and a week or at some point as mine said to set up the class of the six month to build and we were just like accelerating accelerating accelerating it's going to burn we're all almost burning out certainly burned a lot of my team and it's not healthy it's a marathon for me and I don't want to be and also I think it kind of clouds judgment because even if code can be developed if the code side can be developed shorter amount of time I think the the the the design capabilities and iterative capabilities to say hey we need to ship the game in like a month or two we need to pump out a new game every two months or whatever it's just it's really really tough um that's where I really struggle Yeah uh I definitely appreciate speaking to you Ron because I'm probably on that end of the spectrum of just like going all in I'm in India right now but like the two to three weeks before I

came I came here I was determined to learn as much about live coding as possible and so I was sleeping like two hours a night and yeah it's tough it's very very very very very tough but um
Yeah All right so maybe I could just ask you one more question about AI then if you can indulge me a little bit more time I'd also love to ask you a couple of questions on your personal story and your kind of like your trajectory to Proxima but maybe the last question I can ask you is um so with AI there's a lot of you know there's a lot of mainstream opinions about the impact of AI or anything like that but do you have any maybe unconventional or maybe contrarian opinions in terms of the impact of AI and what people should be looking out for when it comes to the potential implications or consequences of AI to the games industry Yeah I think my hot take is and I feel like I have authority to say this because we made we made Sakura Blade the first game that uses AI in runtime is that AI is

probably going to play a relatively important role in developments in in code people may use it for asset generation even if we're not um I think the the impact of AI at least in the short term um in actual game play I think it's it's it's going to be probably pretty limited um and I say that because I I had a Silicon Valley VC and I you know we're talking and they were talking about world models like I think of all of this beautiful thing that you can generate and walk around right like why wouldn't games be in world model the the day that Google came out and like Unity stock price had dropped like 10% um and I think people kind of you know and then when there's like when these VCs are like oh this is going to change everything and then of course it's I get it it's their job to to be optimistic about those things and my job to be more cynical but I think fundamentally people I think especially people who are outside of games misunderstand what games are right games are essentially they're mechanics wrapped in logic

wrapped in like you know art right but what's really really important is the mechanic right like you can have the most ugly chess set and it's still chess but if you have like this beautiful tile thing that isn't chess it doesn't matter [laughter] right and and when you create you know let's say using a world model or something right and you were to to build it and it looks amazing the art looks amazing and you can walk around in but that's not why people play right and people play because the state which is like what is the logic system behind it and it's very very difficult to because those you know world model whatever is probabilistic. It's very difficult to define that. You can say here look I want to play a dream world. It's like yeah that's fine. There's maybe there's market there right like who's energetic market but but if you want to play a game in in a sense of what why people play games I think it's probably difficult. And and it's the same reason why building AI NPCs for the first game to do it is is difficult and we haven't seen too many games Sucker

who who have like really gotten the stuff beyond great because at the end of the day even if you're building a game like The Sims or Minecraft it's you're building it on on rules that people are can predict. When you build AI NPCs or whatever it is storytellers or whatever it is it's probabilistic and if people can really perceive it understanding how that probably functions it's very difficult to say okay what should I do next right it's it's probably maybe tricking the AI to do something. It's kind of the same way if you're playing chess and say okay but the next rule could the next rule could be different but you don't know if you go knight you might do something else surprise but you don't know what it is so it's like okay are you going to play that game but likely not. So I think there I think people probably got ahead of themselves a little bit. I think there doesn't mean there's no innovation and I'd be very very happy to learn what other people are doing is just my general heuristic is there's probably less there than people think there is. Yeah I'd love to now just kind of shift gears and I I think that it'd be great

to find out a little bit about more of your own personal story. I think that your career has been pretty fascinating if I were to just look at the resume from BCG to YouTube to EA working on like some of these mega franchises and then to Proxima and so could you walk us through a little bit about kind of the your career trajectory and then what was it that made you kind of stop and want to do your own thing to build Proxima? What was that story behind your current role as CEO of Proxima and that that really made you want to start Proxima? Thanks for asking that question dude so I think it's it's always easy to look at life and say I just read when you're arguing this is like what I'm meant to do all along and and all these things. The the the reality is it's a messy road and but I there one thing I I knew was like I I really enjoyed the creative

industry and I like creating myself and but I didn't know necessarily what that meant right is it movies is it books is it you know is is it games is it something else and like I love games growing up. I went the traditional business school path of hey look I worked for for BCG and you know I consulted for this for a decade and a half ago at this point and and then afterwards I I worked at YouTube in the strategy team. This is when they were launching YouTube Premium for the first time it's probably too red it was red at the time you know if you ever remember that and then you know worked on you know what now is YouTube TV but I at the time it was just a concept it didn't exist and so we were like modeling scenarios of hey did this work and stuff but ultimately even those jobs they're business jobs you know they're not it's like strategy and business and operations and and even though I was in the creative industry didn't feel like I was actually creating anything I was just by proximity closer and yeah I was getting a little bit more

taste and it was a fantastic learning ground you know I both times worked on The Sims which is a you know great incredible mega franchise with incredible brand value and also I ran the team that operated a long tail of mobile games that nobody cared about and those times there is no franchise value it was just about you know how do you how do you extract revenue from your in not in a bad way not maliciously but right but but how do you think about how do you have live service cadences and doing all these things to drive sales or maybe like re-engagement for marketing efforts and things like that. So really seeing two sides of a very very different beast. I started in 2021 and honestly I think in hindsight it was a lucky time because I didn't have experience building games I wasn't an established known quantity except for I was writing some blogs at the time so I knew some people and I was able to raise a pre-seed round at that time and and it was a very favorable time as as we know you know it's the metaverse and and all

that it became was super hot because of the pandemic and then that lucky time ran out because what followed is five years of gaming industry probably one of the worst five years in the gaming industry and we kind of scraped by by the side of our nails right one of our VCs said that they liked us because we kind of like clung on and died we were at one point maybe like three months from running out of cash and then before we launched Sucker Up which you know the revenue of that you know helped us survive. We were always very lean and it's it's been a really enjoyable I really I learned a lot in that journey and it was very difficult it's not over but it's it's very it's been difficult but enjoyable at the same time and I think I can say that just like even before I thought I was you know I was you know Mr. Smarty Pants right I was like oh you should do this try you should do this and then and then you get your you know punched in the face a little bit and you're like oh wait actually this isn't how the world works I should think about it a little bit differently and not just about this strategy but about like life

you know the idea of moving how quick to move at the very beginning I was a high achiever as you know I got to I got to work super super hard I got to you know something I don't work hard now but like I got to push push push I got to raise next funding round I got to launch and and there's a lot of major consequences with that some positive right but some negative which is burning out myself burning out the team and it's like okay well if I want to build a business that lasts for 20 years at least or hopefully longer how do I build in a way that's you know we my wife and I ran the marathon last year right you're not going to sprint in the first mile if you're running a marathon and so that's been been my journey but it's hard to say oh this is going to be the thing I do for the rest of my life but I really enjoy it. I love making games I love creative endeavors I love marrying that with the business stuff that we talked about it's like but both understanding the market and the opportunity but also at the end of the day it's a creative endeavor right you're not making a spreadsheet. And maybe I could kind of guess what you would say to this next question but if you were to think about maybe some of

the biggest lessons learned would it be around this notion of the marathon or are there any other lessons that you've picked up since starting Proxima? Yeah I think the the the key one is go your own way which is
Sorry? Like go your own way. Go your own way. Which is we've been through five years with just a lot of different directions that the world believed was true and I think is true right and some of them are true like I do think the night day ice is actually true but at the same time opportunity is usually at a place where people are not looking. When it becomes convention that hey something is hey we should everyone should do crypto gaming everyone should go make Fortnite games or something like that it it is very likely that even if it's equal to six odds that you know we're not that we're not we're not like just chasing it because everyone said so right we made Sucker Up before anyone

thought AI was anything right you know we launched in 2013 and that's super super early right like ChatGPT has only been out for less than a year but we were like this thing is amazing right you can create gameplay behaviors that are very very different and I think now it's the opposite where people are like okay I get invited to a lot of these really smart people saying hey let's go make AI NPCs to do this and this and that and and we look at them and say actually I think it's there are some capabilities but there's a lot of drawbacks too and so we start with okay what is the consumer behavior and then how do we build spaces to to build that right versus okay like we built Sucker Up so now we we have to be the AI gaming company and we have to own own this space and so I try to I don't use LinkedIn I have an account but I I don't I I rarely log in I'm rarely on Twitter just because I find those things to be very echo chambery and it it and it changes the the view of my own and I like to I like to experiment and then form my view so like with AI coding same

with seeing to yourself right I I want to do it I want to see everything that it's capable so I can make a judgment myself rather than to read what other people are saying and for me it's like I want to see what the gamers are doing right I want to see what what sells today rather than to say what the industry analysts or the VCs or other founders say we you know we're we're going because it's it's just observation by kind of first principles that's kind of the yeah so if there's two things one is learning how to build at a sustainable pace and two is ignoring the noise and thinking deeply for myself right and sometimes the conclusion is the same as the as the crowd which is totally fine right I'm not trying to be anti-crowd right so yes I'm not stupid to say that AI is a incredible tool or development the same conclusion that I'm coming to but some things I think it's different. Yeah. All right awesome. So maybe the very last question that we can end on is if you had any advice for our audience

out there based upon your experience could be career or work related or could be even personal what would that be? I think it goes to the point where we talked about earlier I think of intentional rest when it's necessary I think sometimes it's important to slow down to speed up and not succumb to the external pressures of anything because the world is very noisy today it's very chaotic there's a lot of things that are out of anyone else's control. And that increase an incredible amount of stress and it feels like everyone's Well, not everyone's, but a lot of people are kind of like um they're just kind of pedaling to go nowhere, right? And it's in those important it's better just to not pedal at all in some cases in your life. But maybe that's a that's just one person's opinion. All right. Well, Ron, thank you so much for the conversation today. For anyone who was interested in this conversation or or interested in you, Ron, I would definitely recommend the audience check

out your newsletter at newsletter.ranmo r a n m o dot me m e and to check out your company which is at proxima.gg p r o x i m a dot gg. So, definitely check out Ron and with that [clears throat] I think we can close it here. Thank you so much for your time, Ron, and for our audience, we will catch you next time. Thanks. Thanks, Ron.
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