Nintendo Switch 2 sales stumble over Christmas

This week, Switch 2 sales stumble over Christmas. The next playground plot its European launch. And the company behind the smash hit Phasmophobia [music] has launched a publisher. Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show. To help me navigate these topics and these stories and maybe a few more, we have a video game media veteran legend with us even. Uh she's the video games editor of The Guardian. It is Kza McDonald. Hello, Kza. Welcome to the show.
Hello, Chris. Thank you for having me. Uh, so you've got a book coming out.
I have.
I want to get the suffix right. Is it Super Nintendo? How one Japanese company helped the world have fun? Have I got that right?
That is what it's called in the UK. Yes. The the Americans have gone for a slightly different subtitle, which is the gamechanging company that unlocked the power of play. So
Oh, the power of play.
I can even show you them. This is the This is the UK one.
Oh. Oh,
it's very cute. And then the US one is is this.
Oh, that which one do you prefer? I I can't possibly say
which of my children do I prefer. I can't I can't answer that question.

Well, we can um Nintendo Life do do their sort of like um they take like the PAL the NTSC, you know, the all the different um box arts from different markets and the people have to vote on it. So maybe they should do that for your um
perfect your books. You don't even have to
February 12th. Is that right?
That's right. It's February I think it's February 5th in the US. February 12th in the UK. It is a it's a cultural history of Nintendo. So, it's uh it's very lively and uh it's based on my 20 years worth now of covering Nintendo as a journalist and 30 years worth of of playing Nintendo games. So, it's kind of my life's work so far, this book.
Oh, wow.
I feel I'm very proud of it.
How long did it take you to do? When did you finish it?
Well, publishing is extremely slow. So, I finished writing it about about a year and a bit ago.
Oh, really?
Yeah. And then it takes, it always takes a long time, but you know, there's covers and there's proofing and there's doing the audio book and all that kind of stuff. So, it's been about a year since basically I finished it and was like, I never want to look at this again. I don't even know if it's good. But then [laughter] after a year and two

months of not looking at it, it's actually coming out and I'm feeling I'm feeling very excited about it.
You're doing a book tour.
That's right. In the UK, I will be in Edinburgh, St. Andrews. Glasgow is where I'm launching it first cuz that's where I live. And then I will also be in London, Brighton, and Manchester throughout February.
Oh wow.
If anyone wants to find out more about that, you can just Google it and all of the things will come up.
I have no experience with this at all other than what other people tell me. And I once years and years ago when I was at MCV, I had to put together a Zelda magazine, which was like a Nintendo paid for it. It was it was going to go inside MCV and it was like
it's supposed to be 25 years of Nintendo Zelda or whatever. I think it was 25 years of Zelda.
I think I'm in that.
Yeah, I think you are. Yeah. Um and um [laughter] and uh and at the time when I was initially when well at the time my initial when I was in the meeting and Nintendo's marketing team were there and PR team and I said right so great I can maybe talk to the developers about how they made the games and stuff like I went no [laughter] you could you could and in the end it was a lovely uh I was loved it I was

quite proud of it was one of the first magazine I ever edited but I discovered how hard it is to get Nintendo to take part shall I say in the in these sort of things and was that is that is that is that and is that why you've gone down the sort of I don't know the question is I don't have a question.
Did Nintendo open themselves up like a like a beautiful uh one of those weird or those those onions those deep fried onions that you get in restaurants? A blooming onion? Um no, they did not. They did not open themselves up like a blooming onion. That did not happen. Um well, obviously I've been interviewing Nintendo's creatives for various reasons in my various games media jobs over the years.
So um I had a lot to draw from on that front. And there is some new material. I spoke with Shagar Mimoto in 2023.
Yeah, I remember.
Yeah.
Yeah. Which was I mean that was that was a big deal because I visited Nintendo's HQ which is obviously something that very few people get to do. So I was enormously honored to be able to do that. Um so there's a lot of new material from not just that interview um but people like Aonuma,

Hashi Noami, um other like long-term creatives at Nintendo and then some of the new some of the new guard as it were. Um but then also an incredible resource for anybody who's interested in Nintendo um the history of Nintendo is uh Sato Ruata's Iata Asks interviews which obviously he interviewed basically every Nintendo developer about every Nintendo game released during the Wii and DS era and it's an absolute trove of like wonderful information about how Nintendo works and if you I did a lot of diving into those into that material as well and that combined with my own experience combined with years as a player Um, it kind of has come together into I think quite a quite a uh energetic exploration of like where these games come from and why they're so uniquely delightful. Like why Nintendo games
are different from most other video games and how they've managed to maintain that sense of wonder throughout, you know, 40ish years of uh of making games. And also um I learned a

lot that I didn't already know about Nintendo's time before it was a game maker when it was making uh originally of course playing cards in the 1800s and then right through all the other weird and wonderful stuff that it made during the 1970s. So that that was very interesting for me as a a long-term Nintendo student. I'd never really known much about that and I did learn a lot about it from uh people who've uh collected all the old cards and who's there's one guy who's uh he's built a replica of Nintendo's very first headquarters in his back garden in uh
right
in France [laughter] and inside that replica of Nintendo's first headquarters is just this incredible collection of Nintendo playing cards and adverts from old magazines. He's even got his hands on one of the old sales books that Nintendo's sales reps would have gone around with selling all the playing cards that they used to make in the 1940s,50s and60s. Um, so yeah, people like that have been I learned a lot I didn't already know from from those students of Nintendo's early history.
Oh wow. Wow. Those books I've got it I've got it on order.

Thank you. Yes,
I'm excited. Next time I see you, which not as often as I'd like, next time I see you, I'll get your signature scribble on it.
Excellent. You get my chicken scratch Oscar.
Yeah, [laughter] that's that's the thing. Yeah. Um well, welcome to the show and um good luck with the book, but we've got some stories to talk about. And actually, the first story firstly, this is a classic drink story. It's a number story. Um but um um I thought you'd be perfect for it. Um KZA cuz um it's around the Switch 2 over Christmas. So, um Nintendo Switch 2 launched in most markets and and it flew out the gate in most markets. So, it it was the biggest console launch of all time. Massive success. But one of the things that us in the analyst world and other analysts and stuff were saying the real the real test for Nintendo was going to be Christmas because you knew it was going to do quite well at the launch because there's a huge audience of people that's just ready to upgrade to the next thing. Um and they had lots of stock in the market but uh it's had a slightly I' got to be careful how I phrase this because it has had a tough Christmas. So well comparatively tough. So US data tracker Sakana reported that

US console sales in November it had the worst result in 30 years. We've talked about that already, but the game business understands that for November, we haven't got the December data yet, but for November, Switch 2 sales were down were down by over a third compared to what the Switch One did in November. Um, during the same period in 2017 when the Switch One launched. Um, in the UK, it's a similar story. Switch two sales for the last 8 weeks of 2025 are 16% lower than what the switch one managed during the last 8 weeks of 2020 2017 is a little better in the UK than the US because if you combine switch 2 and switch one sales together for those eight weeks actually it's up it's up 7% and overall for the year switch to UK sales 2025 are nearly 6% up compared with switch one in 2017 in fact UK is the number one market in Europe for switch 2 um which is unusual because normally it's France and France actually is the biggest disappointing result for the full year. Um, France data Switch 2 sales are 30% lower than the launch of Switch One. Now, Switch One was on sale for 14 longer weeks obviously, but that's still a really disappointing

result, an unusual for you to expect from France, which loves Nintendo. Generally, across the board, Nintendo Switch 2 did had a better year than Switch One, but [clears throat] over Christmas, it was it was particularly weak. I actually had a bit of a chat with um somebody that I know at Nintendo who's quite senior. They were quite sanguin about it, but uh they said it was a combination of a tough economy, a higher price point, and the absence of a big killer Christmas game. And of course, Kzi, you'll know this, and I remember this very vividly. Super Mario Odyssey launched during that first Christmas window.
Back on the um back on on the original Switch in 2017. Um now, I'll get into the Japanese results, which we don't have all the data in yet for this. It's a little bit better. But in Japan, we don't have the final two weeks of the year, which is quite crucial that that will probably drop by the time this episode goes live. So, it probably be in the newsletter. It looks a lot better. Um, for the final two months of the year, over 1 million Switch 2 units have been sold between basically the beginning of November to December 21st. The comparative period in 2017, that

number was under a million and um overall one 1.4 million was sold over Christmas. So, those last two weeks going to be crucial, but basically things are a bit stronger in Japan. And I think that sort of backs up the analysis that the Nintendo person told me in that if you look in Japan they have the cheaper version of the Switch 2, that Japan only version of Switch 2, which is on a lower price point. They also the big Christmas title for Nintendo, if you can call it that, was Kirby Air Rididers. And Kirby isn't a particularly big IP outside of Japan, but it's pretty big in Japan. And Kirby Air Rididers is approaching 400,000 units in Japan, which is, you know, it's not Pokémon, but it's it's decent number. Um, so it seems to have done a little strong in Japan. It's a lot more robust over there. Um, so yeah, I ke I'm actually I've not spoken to you since the Switch 2 launched. How is No, we haven't. Uh, what do you um um what do you make of it? Are you surprised by any of this uh thoughts, feelings?
I was somewhat surprised. Um I remember when the Switch 2 launched, I was hearing a lot of people saying there's no buzz. Like there's been no buzz, you know, there's not there's not the same kind of excitement. And uh I was my my

my interpretation of that is that you know apart from anything else there's there's there's much fewer like there's no games media left you know [laughter] like part of the reason that you're not seeing like endless endless articles and you know hype about it is just there's just many fewer people who are who are writing that kind of stuff now than than there were when the Switch one launched. Um and so like the kind of the sort of absence of hype that that people perceived I think is just more to do with the state of things in general rather than the state of whether people wanted a new Nintendo console. Um, and then when it launched really strong, I was um I wasn't that surprised because it simply has been so long since. And also we we you know the Switch OLED obviously was an upgrade, but not a significant one. I think that most of most people I was talking to over the over the kind of last few years thought that there would be some kind of significant upgrade to the Switch before the Switch 2 and then that that never ended up happening. Um, and so I think there was just a lot of built-up demand. So I was expecting at Christmas it to be a little flatter. Um, and I also just the normal people in my life that I was

talking to, I was kind of like, you getting you thinking you're getting a Switch 2 for Christmas. And most of them are like, no, not yet. Um, and I do think that a lot of people are buying into the Switch even now or a couple of years ago, they don't feel the urge yet to upgrade.
I think you're right. I'm I'm a Nintendo I first I've got I ended up with three Nintendo Switch 2 somehow at the [laughter] launch of the launch of that console. I Nintendo sent me one. I've ordered two and anyway my son's got one now. But the um with the Switch there's almost two audiences. There's definit we know there was Nintendo do annual monthly users in their reports. I don't know why but they had about 100 million annual users of the Switch one over that up until March 2025. And those players are people to upgrade and you can go to those players. Hey, you like Mario Odyssey, you like Pokémon Scarlet and Violet, you like Breath of the World, Tears of the Kingdom, whatever. Um, you can those games run better or some of them have proper upgrades you have to pay for. Um, but they the all those games you love uh on this machine. This is your next

machine. It will support those games and you're just going to naturally get some people and millions of people in fact going, "Yeah, I'll get that. I'll get that because it continues the gaming journey that I'm on already." And Animal Crossing, which comes out, I think it's this month. And then there's Mario Wonder as well, updates to those games. I think we'll continue that. Um, but I think everyone [clears throat] else needs to see a game. They need to see something.
Hey, this is the things and I need to upgrade. And I know that I've talked about this back at the time. I don't think Mario Kart is necessarily that game because I think it's the game everyone gets as well as something else. And um and I think with Mario Kart World in particular, if you're a parent, which we both are, and the kids say to us, "Hey, can I get um can I get a uh can I get a Switch to I want to get the new Mario Kart?" And there you go, what's wrong with the old Mario Kart? Nothing. There's nothing wrong with the old Mario Kart.
There's no There's nothing wrong with Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. There never will be anything wrong with Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. It is it is a perfect game. You know, it's a hard one to follow up.

Yeah, I've jumped back and forth between the two because my little one's playing both. And I do think World is the better game, but it's it's not better enough to just say justify that big price point. Um, and I think that is and then you go beyond that and I love Donkey Kong Bonanza. I think it's an amazing game, but it's not a particularly mainstream one. It's not it's not a IP that's uh as strong as
Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm very interested in what they're doing with Donkey Kong at the moment because it suggests like between the uh opening of the Donkey Kong specific worlds in uh Universal Studios across the world. And then also there's a new Donkey Kong game and it's not Mario and Donkey Kong. It's not Mario, it's just Donkey Kong. I think Nintendo's trying to, you know, up
Yeah.
the appeal and the the relevance of of Donkey Kong as a character. Um, you know, which which makes me ask, you know, why not why not make some new ones? where it where it would be. I'm a bit um I'm I'm wondering what the first like big original new game is going to be for the Switch 2, you know, cuz Bonanza felt incredibly original, but they played it safe and attached it to a

character with at least some brand recognition.
Yeah. Outside of Splatoon and you have to go back even further, Pitman. When Nintendo does a new IP, and they do do quite a lot of it, it's always often about audience expansion or trying to reach new players. It's things like
a dragon drive or a or arms or a Labo if remember that. Yeah. You don't get too much. They don't do too much developing of characters. Donkey Khong Donkey Kong is like Pac-Man. A super recognizable character. Everyone knows who Donkey Kong is, but nobody seems to buy the games. And I say nobody. Millions of people buy the games, but comparatively.
Comparative. This is the thing with Nintendo though when you're talking about Nintendo. Like I keep I keep bringing this up because you know uh any game sells a million, two million, three million. It's sometimes headline worthy. like Nintendo games have to sell, you know? I mean, Animal Crossing: New Horizons, I I'll never for forget the the stat that came out like during during the pandemic that it had sold 30 million copies. And I remember sitting like at the Guardian Culture Desk during one of our meetings and being like, it sold 30 million. And they're like, you mean 3 million? And I'm like, it means 30 30 million. That's so much more than

any other thing could possibly. So, when when it comes to Nintendo, you are always talking in multiples higher, aren't you? Generally, than than your average game. I incurred the raft of the internet when Animal Crossing happened. I uh I tweeted Animal Crossing sold more in five days than um Metroid has sold in its entire lifetime, all games combined. [laughter]
Yeah. The way I've structured the the book is is around Nintendo's uh games, right, as a kind of way in to to talk about the other stuff, [clears throat] but you know, um Mario, Zelda, Pokémon, of course, but then there's also, you know, Metroid and and Nintendo Labo and Splatoon, all of these things, they tell you other things about the company, but none of them have been I mean, even up until Breath of the Wild, Zelda wasn't even like the hugest seller. Joe, I've told this story on the podcast before, but you go back to look to switch one and I don't know if you went I went to the Hammersmith event where they showcased the Switch one and and um um and I was sitting there in the queue and I and everyone afterwards was really down on it and my business brain because that's the thing. I've got my Nintendo family hat on, but when my business brain kicks in, I thought, right, the price isn't cheap. It's more expensive than a PS4 and it doesn't it's not as

powerful as a PS4. Nobody's buying handheld games anymore. You know, we saw that with a VA 3DS had a big drop off. Um, and the big game is Zelda, which is a on the Wii U. And Zelda games, outside of the occasional one like Twilight Princess, rarely do more than five million copies. It's not that big a launch. And and then, of course,
I looked like an idiot very quickly. Um, but
that's one of the things about Nintendo though, isn't it, that they do seem to often completely defy reasonable expectations that that are based on what's happened before. You know, very often it just something complete, you know? I mean I I mean Labo is not ever it's not going to make its way onto any list of bests sellers of anything but it's also I mean how wild that that happened like it could have been it could have been the next we we fit you know they managed to make a set of scales somehow sell untold millions of [laughter] copies so you never do know you never do know
well that's the thing I think I'm looking back in the last year I look at um what happened and I just I don't know why Donkey Kong wasn't positioned as their sort of Q4 title this um because because you do I mentioned this like

it's actually quite a Japan friendly um I can't seem to say Japan properly at the moment. It's a [laughter] very Japan friendly um uh end of year lineup. Pokémon's obviously big globally, but it's obvious particularly big in Japan. And then you had Kirby um and um and Hyrule Warriors. I know Metroid is very western, but I think Nintendo knew when they're going, you know, the way they promoted it and the way they positioned it, they kind of knew that Metroid isn't wasn't going to do it for them.
Yeah. I also think they knew Metroid perhaps wasn't wasn't the greatest. I think like anyone
That's what I mean. Yeah.
Yeah. rather than I mean even the thing is though even even if it had been the me the best Metroid game ever's never sold anything outside of America has it
but with Metroid Dread they did push it like they put it in a good window they did a lot of promotion around it they put a special edition together they they did put a lot they they put a spotlight on Metroid Dread and and um because I think they knew it was a good game and in the end it's I always fun fact Metroid Dread made by Mercury Steam and um Castlevania Lords of the Fallen one I think maybe it was two also made by Mercury Steam are the most successful

games in the Castlevania and Metroid franchises.
Huh. That's the touch. The Mercury Steam Touch.
The Mercury Steam Touch. Yeah. But so they do, but you know, same with Luigi's Mansion. They do put a lot of energy behind something if they think they've got something special. They did it with Luigi Mansion 3 and then it and it became a 15 million seller, which is huge. And um uh obviously by Mario standards, it's still below, but it's still by anyone else's standards. It's huge. But anyway, the sort of I just I I did wonder because Donkey Kong was I think the best game they've put out this year and I I've jumped a lot between Donkey Kong Bonanza and Mario Odyssey because my son's playing both and I and although they're they're gameplay wise completely different structurally there's similarities and and you can tell they're made by some similar people but
yes, you can definitely tell it's got that feel.
Yeah. But and it's it's I don't think Bonanza's better than Odyssey, but it's definitely in the same area. If you had never played Odyssey and you played Bonanza, you'd be like, "This is the best game I've ever played in my life, right?" But because obviously most of the people that we would speak to have

played Mario Odyssey, Ban because Bonanza is a lot like it in quite a lot of ways and quite a lot of its its verve and its energy feels it feels like Odyssey. It feels like an Odyssey spin-off. If you'd never played Odyssey, you'd just think it was the greatest thing going. Like my my son adores it,
you know? He he uh thinks Donkey Kong is brilliant. He's he's played it much more than I have actually this year.
Yeah. Well, my also what I found out with open world games and through Bonanza because when Abanza I was showing Teddy, my son um some videos of Bonanza before it came out and he said um he wanted to play it and he'd only just started playing games and I was and I was like this is going to be way too complicated for you because it is just smashing stuff and you can get quite far in the game just smashing stuff. Um and it and um I'm the meticulous platform player where I have to I've got to 100% every level or as close to it as I can before moving on to the next one. he's like right up to the final boss area very quickly and it was [laughter] it was wonderful to watch him play that and he did love it as well. But it it's a wonderful game my point being and and I I did wonder if um would with would that

have been a big Christmas push maybe. Regardless they decided against it they put it out I mean Nintendo don't have to release a game at Christmas for it to be a big Christmas game. Um they had Mario Kart as well but regardless I they didn't have the lineup they had for the Switch one. Switch one, not only did it have Mario Odyssey at Christmas, they also had Breath of the Wild that year and they had Mario Kart 8, which to a lot of people was a new game. Um um so and they had Splatoon 2 and they had Arms and they had Marion Rabbits for me. I love that game. And um Zenoblade and so it was just this this this very strong first year whereas this year the games have been a bit more niche, a little bit more specific, a little bit more popular in certain markets but not other markets. It actually felt like an end of generation line skit
slate. I I do wonder I think probably the Switch I I have a theory that the Switch 2 was probably supposed to launch a couple years ago and that Mario Wonder was going to be its launch title. That's my it's my conspiracy theory. I think that that was that was going to be what was happening. But um I think that because the Switch was just still selling well and because the pandemic happened and every I think probably the

the course correction was to just keep things as they are. to launch Mario on the thing that already has sold 10 whatever million and then you know just push it a little bit down the road.
Yeah, it's a good point that 2023 that's an interesting feeling. 203 obviously had tears the kingdom and wonder and
I think that's what it was supposed to be. I think it was supposed to be launched with tears the kingdom and that would be on the switch as well and I think it was supposed to be that and then Mario wonder would be the Christmas game. That was I think that's the the in in the good timeline [laughter] that we didn't experience. I think that's what would have happened. Well, no looking forward. I'm a little I say concerned. Nintendo announced games late, so it's not I'm not too concerned, but their slate for this year is there's a Yoshi game, there's Mario Tennis, the Switch 2 slate. Anyway,
there's Poctopia.
Uh that's that's interesting, isn't it?
Yeah. Dragon Quest Builders, the Pokemon version. Yeah.
Yeah, that's that's generating a bit of buzz. I I'm sort of half keeping an eye on that one. And then there's Fire Emblem. None of those games are going to do it. Maybe po Say it again. Potopia.
Potopia.
Potopia. It's trying to do Utopia, but it's Poctopia,

right?
Poke.
Now I'm dying myself.
Well, I think that I think that might be interesting, but the a lot of the other games um on the slate at the moment are aren't going to do the things that we're talking about, which is bring over audiences. I think what we're seeing is the holiday buyers, the people that would buy a game console at Christmas, looked at the Switch 2 and said, "Not this year." And I and I and I so I'll be interested to see if they have what they have in this the schedule. Obviously they don't have to release it at Christmas and release it beforehand, but they have for next year is Pokemon's 30th anniversary. Um maybe there's a Mario.
It's so cra there's a crazy number of Nintendo anniversaries next year. Yeah,
Pokemon's turning 30. Zelda and Metroid are both turning 40.
Um the Gamecube is turning 25 20.
Don't say that.
The the N6 the N64 is turning 30. Um, and Animal Crossing as the series is turning, I think, 25. And even Pokémon Go is 10 years old, like next year, this year now.

And it's uh it's it's just there's like six or seven really huge like any one of those could be like uh something you could pin your big big marketing dollars for the year to.
Yeah, it's I mean, obviously secretly I'm hoping it's Zelda, but the uh it's uh it's all knowing intent it will be none of those things. You can never predict them, can you? Um,
no, not even if you spend literally decades of your life studying them as a company.
They'll decide it's the year of Kirby or something and uh [laughter] can go all in on that. Um, but um I think that's what they're missing as a killer game. I think the price is also it's obviously comparative to the PlayStation Xbox. It's worth noting that PlayStation Xbox also had PlayStation did okay in the UK and some other markets, but they also had a tough year
and Xbox had a non-existent year essentially, didn't it, for for hardware sales at least. Uh it does look like they have properly just gone that's not what we do anymore. And and
um although I actually look I was going to talk about this at the end, but I'm actually looking forward to Xbox's year with Halo and Gears of War and Phase War and Forza cuz it's like
it's like 2006 all over.
Yeah, this old school Xbox is the Xbox

that I recognize. You don't recognize this Elder Scrolls and Call of Duty Xbox. I [laughter] uh I give me give me some Fable um
bit of John Halo any day. [laughter] Yeah, but but
[gasps]
um yeah, they didn't have a great year either and they also saw and but they had price rises and um and I think that's a big issue for the console sector generally. But um um I do think the price is somewhat offputting. I don't know what Nintendo can do about that. I don't imagine there there's many levers they can pull, but
I assume it's as cheap as it can be while it still makes them some money because that's as we know Nintendo never almost never loses money on his hardware. you know, it's it's a it's a line that as a company they basically won't cross, you know, and it's a sensible line.
Yeah. I I also think it's a I think they they have so far maybe they can turn it around lost the value conversation around the switch um uh to because I know a lot of people that would I talked about this with Reggie. We had Reggie on the show a couple of months ago and I said to him like for for me it was £430

for for Switch 2 and I got Mario Kart with it and obviously I was already a Nintendo Switch online member which most people are which I got those upgrades to Zelda included in that and I got a bunch of GameCube games included in that and obviously I was already a member and um all my old controllers and stuff worked on it so there was no need I mean I did but there was no need for me to buy um all the extra accessories and stuff like So, actually what I got was a console with a brand new Mario Kart game and a huge array of stuff to play and experience and enjoy. I got loads of upgrades to Pokemon Scarlet and Violet as well which meant made them actually playable.
Yeah. And Pokemon Legends Arcus also uh just FYI if anybody bounced off that game cuz it ran like absolute um ars on the original Switch. It works now on Switch 2.
I did not bounce off that game. That is one of my favorite Switch One games.
It's now my favorite. Yeah. not my favorite Pokemon game
and it's artistically better than the new one. It's too problem with two Nintendo fans going on a podcast. They talk they [laughter] talk business and

they'll be able just fanboying. But the um I actually think the value isn't so bad. I mean it's still a lot of money I think up front but I think actually uh the I mean I do wonder if they needed to charge £10 for upgrading to anything. Um none of the others do that. But I I don't think it's as hugely prohibitive as expensive as as as perhaps the internet made out it was. I agree is especially if you look at historical console launch prices like relative with inflation. You know, the N64 cost bundles more than that, you know, in the '9s. And like you and I know that I know that we don't live in the '90s anymore. We're all aware. But um the idea that 400 plus pounds is was sort of an out of like a really out of order price to to charge. I I that never quite rung true for me. I think if it had been, you know, I mean, we all remember $599 as the uh PS3's hubristic launch price. And, you know, I mean, I think we've we also generally I think we don't have uh

we're still paying the same amount for games that I was paying, you know, when I was a child, but that money is now worth less. You know, I'm I was paying60 for a Nintendo 64 cartridge in 2000, and I'm now paying like, you know, 50 quid for for a game. And I think that it's as is perhaps natural, people haven't necessarily made the connection that that's we play games really cheaply in this country, particularly in the UK. It's more expensive in Europe obviously, but like games are cheap. They're cheap for the for what they offer. Um and so I think that there has perhaps because of um the freeto play
Yeah.
explosion, there's been a bit it feels like there's been a bit of a race to the bottom in terms of like what's the absolute minimum we can charge. And like you say, I think as from a value point of view, it's actually not bad. It's not great, but it's also not bad.
Yeah, there's a few ways you can spin it. And I talked we had Rebecca Valentine on the show about I talked to her about this. I said, you know, um The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, there was a lot of stories going around that if you want the full version of that on uh on Switch 2, it will cost you

like $90 or something. And I and my point to that was, yeah, but everyone who wants it owns it.
So Stars, it's not costing them that. Um and they're most of them are Nintendo Switch online members. So actually there's two price points for that. If you want Nintendo Switch online, uh, Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Switch 2 Edition, it's going to cost you $90. If you have nothing, you don't and you want DLC as well, it's going to cost you that amount of money. But the reality is for most people, it would cost them no extra money than what they'd already what they're already putting out. So, I'm not going to say free because you are subscribing to stuff. But it's like it would actually be, and that's the two price points that for most for most of the hardcore fans, it was no additional cost. And if you're new to Nintendo, it was this huge amount of money. Um, but yeah, that wasn't what the headline was. But I understand
I think they could be making more. They could be making more of actually the value, you know. I think like I don't really see I don't know if this is just because I'm not looking in the right places, but I don't see them pushing Nintendo online anywhere in advertising or in like I've never seen a big marketing push for Nintendo online

despite the fact that it's actually exceptionally good, especially compared to how much the other ones cost now. you know, and obviously you don't get anything like with Nintendo Online the same library that you get with with PlayStation or Xbox. Like that's obvious, but you do get access to every Nintendo game from forever. And I feel like, well, not every, you know, a lot a lot of the ones that anybody will have got fond memories of.
One day it'll all be there.
One, I do believe I actually believe one day we'll have like a proper playable library because I think Nintendo has shown quite a lot of commitment to its own history. And also something that um something that Miiamoto said um in like whenever it was I interviewed him in 2023 I think was that you know Nintendo's always understood the value of making a thing once and then selling it forever. You know like a comic book if you make a great hit comic book you can print that same comic book for for the rest of time. And that's you know we've seen that now with with games that are 40 years old still being sold. I I think that because Nintendo understands that and hasn't got this um put it in the trash, put it in the rearview m mirror attitude to the preservation of

their own games. I do think that one day there will be a almost full library of like every notable Nintendo game that you can play. But right now, I know a lot of people who I grew up with who loved, you know, games when they were young don't necessarily play them anymore. But if you were to tell them that for like literally what is it 20 pound a year or something like that? It's not much, is it? you could have um you could have access to like all of the Nintendo games you used to love. I think a lot of people would would pay that and I think actually a lot of people would pay for a separate Nintendo lowpriced Nintendo console that essentially is just that. It's just the the old stuff that you do you have a streaming access to. I think that's a that's something they should be thinking about.
Yeah. Well, I'm sure they are. Um um but I'm looking forward to Mario 35 coming out of the bin. Um the um uh yeah, so Nintendo Switch 2 has had a bonkers start to the year, but start to life back in back in June, but it has started to slow down over Christmas. The numbers are still good. Nobody's talking about this machine in in as being a failure, but it and not no it's not even I'm not

even suggesting that at all. The numbers are still very high. It's still one of the better performing game consoles, but it's just we have seen that that sort of um Switch One comparison start to to diminish and and I just think we'll continue to see that. Um I'm going to change the topic a little bit. Uh this is about a new story. This is uh the developer of mega hit Phasmophobia has launched a games publisher. This is uh the the the developers called Kinetic Games uh formed by Daniel Knight. He's based I don't know where are we saying solo developer these days but he kind of is the ex appears to me of it behind the uh uh the sort of ghost hunting horror game that's Phasmophobia did really really well sort of 25 million copies made him a very rich man um he didn't expect it at all when it happened uh he didn't have any of the infrastructure needed to handle 25 million players uh he needed to find lawyers accountants how to set up a company um it's one of those rare fun stories of someone who did something for their mates and ended up becoming a millionaire um the game is actually still early access enters 1.0 zero release this year. But because of that, he wants to go, hey, this is all the stuff I learned trying to set this up and get this working. And so, he's

launched Kinetic Publishing. They're going to fund games. They're going to support developers. Um, I actually did a quick interview with Daniel and the firm's director of marketing and partnerships, Asim Tanvir, about what they're doing. And here is that interview. Okay, let's start with a big question. Why are you doing this?
Something I've always wanted to do. Basically, as soon as I started hiring people, it was always like the the goal that I wanted to reach. And in terms of like why we're doing it right now is uh we're on our leadup to 1.0 and we've massively grown the team now. We're close to 40 people and we're still growing.
Wow.
So, we're now at a very good position to be able to actually do this and put our time into it. Now, was like the perfect time for us to to start this. Was there a motivating factor because with fans, you know, you didn't expect anything and then suddenly you had to learn everything the hard way. So, is there is there a sort of desire to bridge that gap perhaps for studios that they might end up in a similar situation or or was it inspired by something from there?
Essentially, when when the game

released, I'd never run a business before. I'd never had to grow a studio or hire people or do anything that I've I've done now. So, I've had to learn all of it just on my own right at the start. and we've essentially now I've gone through basically every single thing that any game studio would ever ever go through. So now we're in a very good opportunity to be able to offer that support to other people.
Yeah.
Um cuz where I was just on on my own right at the start, I was basically forced to just learn that all at the same time while still working on the game.
Yeah.
And yeah, we're we're now able to offer that to other people.
Yeah. The hard way. What can you offer them? What is it? Is it a full suite of publishing services? Is it funding? What is it that you are doing? Is the sim is is that I guess that's your area as well.
Yeah, I can cover that. Yeah, I mean we're you know offering obviously uh as Dan mentioned like all of his experience from the dev side to any kind of indie studio small teams in terms of the financial side we can offers obviously funding support there offer in terms of the marketing side as well you know that's where kind of my experience comes

in over the years as well social media side as well um kind of you know making those introductions to kind of like third parties etc as well if you're looking for like a console release or a console launch for your game and just general advice as well in terms of like how best to kind of walk that path that Dan walked many years ago. So yeah, we're looking to off the full suite essentially of kind of advice and support that we can and uh help teams or solo devs like Dan uh in the past uh to to be a success.
Is there a goal? Do you have a internal target or is it just that sort of altruistic we just want to help independent studios?
Yeah, not really any target so to speak. It's just, you know, uh, trying to work with and find a kind of the best best teams and studios and games out there that are doing, you know, great work in that indie space, being crazy, being innovative. One of the key things we probably are looking at is games that are roughly like 12 to 18 months from release and can yeah, looking to help support them across all genres actually as well. That might be a question in in

in the future, but yeah, not just horror, but we're looking at all genres. So, not kind of pigeon hoing ourselves in terms of like just horror. Uh I think the experience that Dan and the team and I have uh I think we can offer all of that what we mentioned across the board across different genres.
You mentioned you're looking things across all genres but what projects are you looking to sign?
Uh pretty much open to anything. Obviously we do have the experience with multiplayer and horror which we can definitely help people with. At the same time we don't want to like box ourselves in with you just doing those kind of games. So we are pretty much just open to to any genre. Is there any size of gaming particularly? I mean, imagine it's indies. Is there is there a cap on what it is that you can fund and stuff?
We'll be looking at kind of like uh smaller teams like indie teams. That's that's what we want to help help champion. That's the space that Dan grew Fasmophobia in and that's the space that we want to help uh grow ourselves like you see the success of like all the indie studio success recently over the last few years that having like we we absolutely love that and we want to help support that and further grow that. So,

if there's any like kind of smaller teams out there or even like solo devs like Dan, we want to kind of help find like them teams or them people and the like the the great games they're making and whether it be horror or multiplayer, whether it be cozy games, whether it be uh RPGs, pixel art stuff, or whether it's like realistic stuff. We don't want to, as Dan said, box ourselves and we just want to help support that indie space and help it grow even further.
Is there anything you think that's particularly unique about you and the way you do things? I think as Dan touched upon we've kind of gone through it all. So Dan has that experience of like you know going from solo dev to like a team of almost like like 40 people now and then the team itself like the core members that we have from the team they all have their expertise in different areas that we will offer support in over a period of like 10 15 20 years. So we can offer that that that large experience over the several years plus that that really focused like indie experience that Dan brings like you know growing that game on its own and getting it to over 25 million sales. Not that we're kind of promising that any game we bring on we'll get 25 million. So that

would [laughter] be great of course a great story to have but uh yeah we want to uh kind of offer all our expertise and knowledge that we've we've learned across uh those years including Dan's experience obviously well where it's been like 10 years now Dan you worked on um so you know offer that experience from from from like from that point of view as well. So, I think we're well positioned to offer that um I guess that deeply indie experience of how to grow a game from like from zero to hopefully like 25 million and beyond. But it's a big year for that game. You're coming out of early access. You're launching on Switch 2 and now you're launching a publishing division. You've got your hands full.
It's not a question. It's just an observation. [laughter]
Yeah. if it's a busy year. Uh 2026 will be obviously the year we're launching uh Fasmopovia in 1.0 as well. So there's that to handle. Um but you know that won't be affected at all. Like like I said, this is a like a smaller team that

we're growing on the side of the like from the publishing label which is something that Dan always wanting to do and is like super excited and passionate about. One won't affect the other. We're still supremely focused on getting Phasmophobia out there to 1.0 and beyond. uh and then also wearing the publishing label uh as well at the same time. I don't know Dan if you have any further thoughts.
Yeah, and just like dayto-day just my responsibilities are still going to be on the game. I I'm not going to be too heavily involved in the publishing side. Uh mostly just from like a like a green lighting games and uh oversight and the whole thing.
Is there like a quot do you have like we could probably do two or three a year or is do you not even think like that?
We're keeping our kind of slate, you know, when we do sign titles intentionally quite small. So um it's a kind of a more thoughtful sustainable model. Uh and then we can give each team we work with like the attention they deserve at the same time. Uh I think I touched on it briefly like realistically we're thinking maybe like two to four projects in like a 12 month period. Enough to build like a healthy slate without like compromising anything in

terms of quality and support that we offer.
Kza, have you played Fasmophobia?
I have not. I have not. I'm not a I'm not a horror/go guy. Um, I'm also not in early access. I actually made a I don't play games when they're in early access now. Um, purely because actually just for professional reasons, it becomes completely unmanageable if you add on top of the many hundreds of games that come out every year. Also playing the ones that aren't like finished yet. Um, so it's not something I have played. It is something I will um probably check out when it when it finally goes into 1.0, whenever that is. Uh but I do think it's uh interesting that whenever we hear about a new publisher launching now, it is it's it's this story, isn't it? So the same with a inner sloth, outer sloth. It's it's a someone who's had a hit who wants to maybe seems to want to share um that that good fortune.
This is the reason why I even I we get publishing stories quite a lot, but the reason why I've chosen to cover this one and is start as I love the Phasmophobia story. I think it's I think it's a fascinating story of of a game that's

just done so well. And you know, ugly I go to these UK events. We haven't had a UK hit for a while and this is literally that. But um um I also love it when a when a developer has a huge amount of success and there's nothing wrong if you don't do this, but I when they have a huge amount and they reinvest it in video games because
um we've seen back in the old days and we could talk about the bad old days where publishers dominated everything. But the one positive of that is if EA made loads of money, yes, they the directors and and everyone gets a bonus or whatever, but they then take that money and they reinvest it in the next game. And that's what they do. Those games get reinvested. But when a I'm picking on Larian, but it could be anyone, but when a Larry has a success, they can choose, and maybe they have done to buy some yachts, right?
Yeah. [laughter] They can legally buy some yachts with that money.
Yeah. They can do what they like. It's their money. It's success. It's great. But from an industry point of view, that sort of cycling recycling of the money in the industry is kind of um a a good

thing to happen from a business industry point of view. And you know, you mentioned in outl there's also um power world pocket pair the power developers who've launched their own publishing label as well. And this is actually the same it's the same thing. He's had a huge amount of success. he's bought, I'm sure he has spent some of that money, but um he's uh he's he's putting that back into the business, putting it back into other studios, and that's the kind of thing that I like to say. I also love this is this is um one of the one of the sim is going to be one of the guys sort of generally driving this. And um I really love a sim. This is um back in 2022, I did a piece with him. He was um well it wasn't with him but it was about a guy called Luke Wilshshire who was a young man who uh he b he was dying of cancer and he wanted to play Marvel's Midnight Suns and a Sim worked for 2K at the time and there was um and he and 2K and Furaxis and the charity called Solving Kids Cancer got together made that made a demo for him really quickly got it shipped you know got it over so that he could play the game. There's there's a I'm not going to go into too many details about it. There's an article I wrote a story about it called

Luke was here. Um 2K never wanted the story to get out there. Solving kids cancer were the ones that came with the sto came to me with the story. Um there's an article on games industry drop about it. But anyway, Sim was played a real sort of quite big role in making that happen and um uh I just great opportunity. What a lovely story and he's a lovely man. Um and um he's in charge. There's Kinetic Publishing Division. They've not signed any games yet. Uh they're looking for um games that are maybe 12 to 18 months from release. So sort of quite far along, but uh there's funding money available. uh uh publishing support. So there's um uh so yeah, that's quite exciting that people get their uh their decks ready. Um
yeah, I do [clears throat] I do feel like any money becoming available at the moment is a story, isn't it?
Yeah.
Um the the number of developers I've spoken to in the last couple of years who've got, you know, great [snorts] pedigree and some pretty, you know, halfway through, you nearly finished games who can't find any any help
or any publishing interest at all is is huge. So it's not and like like you say I think the uh this is obviously just a

games industry problem is it but the extraction of like you know something generates capital and then that just gets kind of extracted out of of whatever you know whatever industry it is that just gets kind of extracted upwards. It's nice to see that
being reinvested in new in new things. I think that's it's the only way that things can ever be sustainable, isn't it? Really, in in any creative industry, particularly games, like money is a huge part of what makes a game happen. And if it's all if you make if you make a hit and then the money just vanishes upwards
um into luxury goods or whatever else the directors decide to buy, then it's not it's not helping, is it?
No. No. And it's and I say it's the one I don't want to I don't obviously I think there's lots of positives to the self-publishing revolution and all this kind of thing but it does mean that you are seeing there is a risk that will happen and I loved it when No Man's Sky No Man's Sky is a great example. No Man's Sky has been I think last year it was in the bronze Steam thing. So it made between 20 and $40 million last year
that's 10 this year as well. No man's Sky
so 10 years and still making that kind of money every year. And Hello Games is you know decent studio. They make big

games, but they're not.
But they don't have a thousand people. You know, they didn't expand that much when they have now, but you know, the first few years of No Man's Sky, it was still kind of there were sub 50 of them, I think, making that game.
But they and that's why when uh back in G the Game Awards 2024 and they announced they were publishing someone else's game and they were helping them develop it. I was like, that's great. That's that's what I love seeing that. Um and um um but yeah, it's um so anyway, new studio.
Get your decks ready.
Yeah. [laughter] Um, I don't know. And this here's another story. Uh, next playground. I've got one here for those who are on the videos, not on the podcast. There it is.
I'm so fascinated by this little cube. It's a little cube. It's half gray and it's got a little neon, yellow, and green. And it's so tiny. It's like it's mini. It's like your size of your hand.
Yeah, it's it's it is it's very much designed for what it is. It's a soldout US console, of course. Did 650,000 units last year, which may not sound like a lot, but that's all they made. um they had to start flying stock in in order to reach Christmas demand. It's coming to

Europe and specifically it's launching in the UK this spring. Um it's not the only thing they announced during CES. Um they're they're doing a big push into sports. They launched a um next uh g NHL puck rush. Um but that's part of a next sports portfolio of games. So throughout 2026, Nex will introduce additional titles in partnership with global sports league including the NBA. So NHL and NBA are are in there. Um the company's also divi designing a new line of accessories to enhance the sports gameplay at home experience. So um that will be interesting for that. They're also and this is something that I love. Um they're looking at their safe online play. So um Next Playground is very focused on kids and families. They're very focused on trust. That's why they don't let any old game be on the platform. Um they they showed at GDC an early preview of its secure connected playd date feature which will ensure that parents are in full control of linking one trusted playground device to another. This feature will provide kids and parents a safe option for virtual playdates without having to compromise on security, safety and supervision. The

new feature will be demonstrated first with Tennis Smash Racketville which is a tennis rally game. Um I'm interested in this um because it's it's weird because it's 20 years of the Wii.
Yes, it is. It is indeed. Yeah. And um speaking of anniversaries, and I always think, oh, it's just the Wii, but there's an entire there's people who were born after the Wii that are now adults and in the working world that wasn't there when when the Wii Sports Revolution happened.
And I here's the thing, it's as a gamer. I put this I play this over Christmas. It is very much flapping your hands in front of a screen. Um there's a Bluey game on it and um and the kids but the kids loved it. You know, there was there was musical statues and they were making pavlover on the um and there were um and there was a blue there's a a Peppa Pig game which the youngest loves and I'm disappointed that he loves Peppa Pig.
At least it's just not Paw Patrol, mate. It could be worse.
Well, was there a Paw Patrol game? There isn't. The Sesame Street ones. Um and but they were having a whale of a time and everyone was sitting around the living room screen and dancing around

and it very much deja vu um going on. Um but I think this is interesting. I actually think this a bit of a problem for Nintendo in trying to um appeal to families um because this coming in spring which means they it'll probably be a a key Christmas item. Um uh they're selling everything they can make at the moment. They have a small company and um and and now they're going global with it.
I think it's insane that nobody's done this sooner because I don't think the Wii would ever have stopped selling. Do you know what I mean? like the Wii was it was it was it appeals to a certain you know there are still just loads and loads of people who bought a Wii with Wii Sports and never really bought another game and you know I think those people still exist. There's still a lot of people out there who just really want to play what the next playground offers, which is, you know, familyfriendly, but, you know, not not rubbish, but familyfriendly, you know, uh, kind of party and sports kind of games. And it's such a low price point. And now, of course, the buying because I'm always advising I'm always advising people on, you know, what what to do, like how to keep gaming like safe and good for your

family, right? And my general advice for the past few years has been Apple Arcade on the iPad because it's uh no ads, no horrible, no no grossness in your mobile games because they're they're so exploitative those mobile games in general, especially with children. Um so that and then also just Nintendo. It's like invest in in a Nintendo console and that is like you could you can be assured that you will not have any uh inappropriate content. you won't have like a whole online system to manage. Like it's and now of course that now costs like we were saying 420 quid if you really want to invest in Nintendo. Like it's a lot. So I think it's it's crazy that no one's done a kind of simple motion control console that's family oriented like this before. It's it I think some of the things that makes it challenging is there are the ways of getting something like this. Certainly safe wise what you're talking about what you just said there is true but obviously you can get experiences like this on your phone. You can get experiences like this. Um um uh uh Netflix does this thing with um true uh

with phones and everything like that. So you start
I've never tried it. Have you? Is it good?
No, but I read Steven Tortillo's newsletter and he did he like boggle on it. It's uh but um um yeah. So we are we are um we are seeing um other places sort of do similar things that are a bit like what it was before. This is this feels although it's connect it feels so I don't know why it feels very we to me I think because of the family focus on it. Um but yes it's I think it's interesting. I I I'm not entirely convinced that their argument is that because it's a subscription based model for the games you have to subscribe to the games. It's actually quite a lot of money. Yeah. So the idea they they they
So it's a cheap console but you paying per month presumably for
access pay or I I bought a threemon one for this cuz I wasn't quite sure if the kids are just go off it after a little while but um my um their idea behind it is that creates a recurring revenue which is they can keep investing in the game library and they can keep doing this and and it also encourages people to play other things not just get it play with a well weed sports game and

then and then move on to and then don't move on to anything else. So that was their thinking behind it and I can get it and he's an idea that parents he he his argument we had him on the show and um the CEO said that um uh uh that he thinks parents prefer that option than having to be pestered for the next game and the next game. The next game it's all here. You don't you don't have to worry about it.
Oh, I [clears throat] don't know about that.
No, I don't know about that. But he he he he made a case for it. I could understand where he's coming from. But um
but um uh I'm still not convinced. A lot of the games I was playing were very similar. You know, even I go, "Okay, Bluey and Peppa Pig, they were the licensed games, but it was still a lot of there was a lot of Musical Statue games on there." Um, so um um we'll see. Uh but it does look cool. I'm glad to have one. And um and
I will I will get one. I will be getting one in spring just partly out of professional curiosity, but also because Nintendo Switch Sports is very genuinely the most popular game that's ever been in my house with my family, my my kids. Everyone loves Nintendo Switch Sports.

Um, I've recommended it to so many people because it's just it's the intuitiveness of the movement, you know, it's just kids just love love to play with movement.
And I think that, you know, that's something that it's it's not it's not just died out in the 20 years since we had the Wii.
Children still love jumping around.
I forgot that Nintendo Switch Sports was a thing. Anyway, um the um [laughter] we're running out of time, but they do have a couple of other stories that have just been coming around the internet that I thought I'd uh I might uh bring up um because we had Todd Howard on the show just before Christmas, I thought we'd talk about the fact that Fallout 4's player count doubled on the launch of Fallout Season 2 TV show. This is Steam data. It jumped to 40 Steam DB data jumped to 40,000 players. New Vegas, which is a 15y old game, jumped from 8,000 players to 20,000 players on the launch of the TV show. Um, now this they did a big push um, Bethesda around the games. They did a lot of tie-ins and promotions. They put stuff in Fallout 76 as well and Fallout Shelter to try and make it try and you know get a benefit

from the TV show because the Fallout TV show season 1 had a huge impact and I think that's what we need to talk about here. Fallout season 1 back in April 2024, it caused a rise of players of 9 million on Fallout 4. Uh, it was huge. It was the biggest selling game of the month as well. Um, and this and so what we're seeing here with season two is actually a trend we've seen in other TV shows where season two really doesn't have anywhere near the same impact as the first season had. Um, not too surprising. Um, and we saw it in a substantial way with The Last of Us season 2. It didn't have the same impact as the first and indeed the Halo TV series which lasted two se two series and then um the first one had a decent impact on Halo when the second one didn't. Um, so it is a boost. you know, it's still having an impact, but it's really really it just shows that if you want to if you're making a if there's a TV show about your game coming out, you really need to try and get it right on the first season and benefit the benefit there because you're not going to see quite so much in the second season. Um, uh, I love the Fallout TV show. I think

it's great. Um, it's also done a little bit differently this this season one they put it all out at once and season two is this weekly uh, uh, release. So, we may see those numbers sort of be a little bit steadier over time. But um yeah, boost, but not a huge one. Um
I would personally love to see a new Fallout game, please. And I I don't want to see any more additions to Fallout 76. I I just I want a new one. I want a new one, please. You know, with all this with all this uh with all this boosted player engagements and presumably some some money coming coming with it. I would just really like to see a new follow game. That would be great. That would be my my ideal outcome from this from this TV series.
It's been a while. It's been a long time.
It's been a long while. I mean,
let's not get started on how long it's been for Elder Scrolls, but it's been a long time for Fallout.
Yeah, at least we know one's coming for that one. Um,
I mean, supposedly I I'll leave it when I see it. [laughter]
Obviously, this TV show ties us into another TV update. I don't normally do this, but it ties in nicely with Fallout because there's another Amazon TV show coming out. It's based on Tomb Raider, and they've just announced the cast for that. So joining Sophie Turner who is

playing Lara Croft, we have got uh Shagonei Weaver as a new character called Evelyn Wallace and Jason Issacs plays Lara's uncle Atlas De other cast members. It's a really strong lineup. Jack Bannon is here. Bill Patterson is playing the butler. Um Celia Imary John
Patterson Joseph Sashid Lust. It's looking very good. Uh a big year for Tomb obviously because there the remake or whatever you want to call it of the first game Legacy of Atlantis as is what they're calling it. And there's a new two meta game coming out in 2027 as well. So they seem to have the they have new games coming to try and capitalize on this TV show launch. Um the the filming starts this month. But yeah,
Tomb Raider is also Tomb Raider is also turning 30 this year, isn't it?
Yes, it is the 30th anniversary.
So there you go. That's uh they got they'll have a new version of the first game and a TV show out.
Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah, I'll be and obviously um Phoebe Wallbridge is the showrunner on it which is um cool. Um I actually quite like the last two main movie. the one with Alicia. I can always pronounce her name right. Alicia Vicanda. Um the 2018 one. I quite I

don't actually remember anything about it. I just remember
I'm fairly sure I saw it, but I can't remember a damn thing about it. Well, it was in the old days when, you know, video game adaptations were universally boggish.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, 2018 2018 is the old days. God, it upsets me. Um uh here's it is another I don't know. This is a story I I'll bring it up because it got a lot of headlines. The most played games in the US on the PlayStation last year was Fortnite at number one, Call of Duty at number two, GTA number three, Roblox at number four, and Minecraft at number five. In 24 to 24, the year before, the top five were Call of Duty at number one. Sorry, Fallout number one, Call of Duty number two, GTA number five. Basically, the same list. Um,
I think Roblox and Minecraft Switch places, that's it. That's the only movement there, wasn't it?
Well, in the Xbox there was some movement, but actually it's exactly the same list. Um, I mean it's a fun headline, but it's not actually that surprising. The big live service games dominate play time. Um, of course they, you know, if you if you're if you've got

a single player game that's 20 hours long or 15 hours long or whatever, that's not going to make this list because it doesn't soak up as much hours out of people's time. Um,
the big live service hits of 2025 that are new, the big new live service hits was Battlefield 6 and Arc Raiders, they didn't release until October. So, they weren't going to make that top five. So I it's I think it's a fun headline, but it doesn't really it's not surprising to me.
Where is something like Hell Divers on that list in Overwatch?
Like things that are not quite as old and established, but also not like new releases.
Well, Overwatch had a bit of a a drop off. Hell Divers 2 is a is an really interesting game because it it's a bit of a spiky one. So you get these it has these huge surge and obviously there's an element of sometimes the drops are because the game made some updates people didn't like. That certainly happened early doors. But it had hell dive 2 had a huge September
driven by the Xbox launch and a big update and that kind of one of the biggest months it had was in September. But then Battlefield Night Raiders happened and then it dropped away and
I think my my reading of the Hell Divers

2 audience is it's an audience that is happy to jump game to game to game. So they so they they will come back to it but they'll also go away from it. And we actually uh there was a statistic that Arrowhead told us they were one of the first people on our show back in back in a year almost a year ago now. um uh they were talking about how 6 million people who played Hell Divers 2 during that first year were Call of Duty players. So you got that. So and so natur they will go back to Call of Duty. They will go around and I think Hell Divers that's why those sort of games I don't know where the games are on the list. Um Sakana only shared the top five. But um uh uh yeah
I I do think a lot of people don't know this. Like I was um I was trying I think there's there was a stat I got in my Steam you know the Steam yearly wrap-up that they do for you. Steam Steam wrapped um which said that 17% of play time was spent on new games like released in 2025 this year. 17%. And um you know I remember like that that that stat was was pretty crazy to me. And then a lot of people that I talked to about it were like well yeah of course cuz people are you know people

don't have to buy new stuff. And I'm like no cuz it's not like it's not like the other 83% of time is being spent on games from two or three years ago. It's it's all being spent on on just this like Dota and Counter Strike and just these these big games. Like it's not it's not that people don't feel the need to, you know, people are like a year or two behind on their on their indie releases. It's that everyone's just playing the same games all the time. And that's that's something that just
wasn't able to happen in previous generations, but it, you know, it's I don't I don't know. I don't see it changing. It seems
well it's also of course because we are a little older um and you're younger than me but it's it we remember the year 2000 the when PS2 launched. The idea of us playing a 1990s NEZ game is like absurd. Like I want to be playing that when I've got these wonderful 3D games. Now 10 years ago is 2015.
It's Fallout 4.
It's and it's games that actually you play them now and they're still top of the genre they're in. Um it's The Witcher 3. It's it's GTA 5. And so

you're in this sort of where you've got you've got the phenomenon you're talking about which is the live service one which is the big impact but you've also got um um you've also got the uh the fact that actually you know a new game comes out but it is is competing with a 10
version of the game that came out 5 years ago which is still top of the range. Um there's another thing we've got. Um I'll be talking about this a little bit more on next week's show, but the um uh there is an element of uh when people obsess on that playtime stat. I'm a little bit mindful of it because um I was at a uh I'm very I don't want to spoil next week's episode too much, but I'm very mindful of the fact that people get very excited about or or very depressed even about the fact that that's only 17%. But I always think a game like Fortnite or a game like Roblox or some of those sort of titles um they kind of play a different role to a single player story game. And if you suddenly was if you were to if you were to sector the market just say okay when it comes to single player story games what percentage were new games that were

sold I bet the number was much much much higher. And and so and because I play well I actually I don't but when I when I used to play live service games it was mostly for competition or it was for hanging out. it wasn't for the stories and if I want a story and so if I want and so I'm not when you look at the games industry as a whole you look how complicated our industry is and you look at all the different sectors these these different um
um these g the roles these games play in people's lives I think Candy Crush doesn't play the same role as Resident Evil. Resident Evil doesn't play the same role as as as Fortnite and Fortnite isn't really competing with Resident Evil. I think it's competing with um hanging out with your friends, going to the pools.
It's competing with hanging out in the park and drinking cider.
Yeah. Yeah. I think I think Candy Crush is competing with Tik Tok. I think Resident Evil's competing with Stranger Things. I and they're more Well, and they're all competing with each other. We're competing for leisure time, of course, but I do think they those comp those those games are playing slightly different roles. So when we look at that

big macro look of 17% of game time, um there's an element of like the screen industries separate TV, they separate movies, they separate YouTube, they separate these things out. In games, we kind of don't. Uh we separate everything's a game. Um but actually it's actually lots of different industries within our industry. Anyway, that's next week's show. I've done a spoiler there, [laughter] but
it's not a spoiler, it's a leadin, Chris.
A lead in. That's it. Um KZA, uh where where can people buy your book? You can, if you're in the UK, you can buy it at Washington's or from the Guardian bookshop if you wish to support the Guardians journalism alongside uh buying a nice book about Nintendo um and from Amazon if that's your only option that you have.
And if people want to read more of your opinions and thoughts and things, you've got a newsletter, don't you? And you
I do. So, I have been running uh the Guardians Gaming newsletter is is mine. It's Pushing Buttons. It's been running for a while. Um it's my favorite thing I do uh that goes out weekly. Um, and yes, so please subscribe to that if you if you don't. It's uh it's it's it's my

pride and joy. Uh, as is this book. Oh, and the states you can buy it in like all the big US and Canada bookshops as well if you're in the States. Uh,
uh, yes. And yes, obviously please please do please do visit the Guardian. I feel like I feel like everybody probably knows what the Guardian is, but if you don't, we we're the basically the one remaining leftwing newspaper. So, please do please do support the Guardian. Um, if that is if that is your bag,
well, uh, I certainly recommend it. Top has been taking games seriously for longer than almost any other, uh, publication as well. Um, um, so um, and it does some really interesting things. But that's it for today's edition of the Game Business Show. We'll be back, of course, next week with more news, analysis, and insight into the world of the video game industry. If you want to make sure you don't miss an episode, head to the gamebus.com and subscribe to us there. We will email you when the latest episode is available. Until next time, thank you for tuning in.