Kooapps’ CK Wang And Mintegral’s Shobeir Shobeiri On Increasing ARPDAU By 40-80% With In-App Bidding

[Music] thank you hello world and welcome to pg.biz it's the podcast series and of course a hollow to our lovely listeners because yes Brian is not with me I am here I'm your co-host Peggy Ann sultz and I thought okay everyone's been asking me in Social how is it going down in the dungeon what is happening in the studio so I thought hey take you down let you have a look and here it is it's shaping up extremely well um some great touches thanks to my husband Peter and the trades he's been working with because hey we've got underfloor heating we've got great heating here we've got a window where there wasn't one before and we've got Uber cool lighting and shares we are set for the studio and some of you have

already reached out to me especially here in the Clone area and you're like hey when you're ready to rock we're ready to be on the show so I am ready long before games come you can come over and check that out but speaking about Studios speaking about shows I was in a different Studio recently I was at GDC and it was the five o'clock Club so it was the groove into the groove at five o'clock at GDC with my guests and they're on the show today because it was such a good show so we have for you CK Wang he is the man CEO co-founder of co-ops and shabir shabiri from ninja girl and we talked about a number of topics we talked about how to win with data how to take a winning creative how to monetize casual and hybrid casual and we've learned how to speak a little bit of Tagalog so it was a great show great

fun let's listen in let's take it away [Music] this is Peggy Ann saltz and this is the groove at five o'clock with Mentor girl and I welcome into the groove today my guest shabir shabiri senior director of Business Development at mintegral in North America and C.K Wang co-founder and CEO at coo apps and I'll get into both of those but I'll start with you shabir your mobile advertising veteran 12 years in the industry worked with game companies like EA scopely I mean a long list and previously even Biz Dev at Pebble which is pretty wild so we're into the groove I think maybe part of your groove is being into the industry so deeply looking at your track record but when you're not doing that how do you get into the groove you know it's a space it's a Zone it might even be a hobby

what does it for you uh wow that's a great question um I like to disconnect I have a little dog go for a nice walk around uh it's you know I live in Sonoma it's lovely up there in the hikes so that's something I like very california-esque so I get a little groovy that way one little story I thought it would share is uh when I started my career in Tech and mobile get the kind of the combination uh one of the people who actually crashed in my apartment initially in San Francisco is a port of a meta that's founder of instacart but before he started instacart he first come to Silicon Valley he connected with my old roommate avoc holy and uh they were doing this LinkedIn for lawyers and he got just fed up I'm tired of lawyers I'm tired of it and he's like I want to go and share to come you know I want to create this app and I want to make an instant almost like in Instagram but for you know carts instacart so like yeah I've been very fortunate to be here in like uh mobile for since Inception with cool stories like that yeah great to

share a witness to it actually there you go in history well CK you are co-founder of coup apps coops of quarks has made over 30 titles including snake.io PicToWord and 350 million downloads so congratulations to that thank you in addition I mean I was reading this I thought no seriously teaching server-side development at the University of Washington you do that now yeah nothing more I taught for about five years between 2013 to 2018 just really wanted to give back to the community um and so yeah so start teaching at UW and then uh yeah of course when cool apps got really busy um uh yeah I had to you know pause that but uh yeah I really enjoyed my time there uh the students there are really really smart uh it's really what I you know I'm super passionate about and what I did at Microsoft I was there for five years as well prior to teach at UW and starting coops talk about the groove I think for me is playing Starcraft like I played growing up

um now even with the latest season I'm ranked like uh high diamond low masters League wow but uh yeah but with now with two kids uh not always a luxury possible but I also read you shared this with me growing up in the Philippines and you know a little Tagalog yeah yeah yeah yeah so how would you say like maybe welcome to the groove at five o'clock oh okay that one's maybe a little bit hard but yeah just I only know a little bit and now have not having lived there for over you know 15 20 years like I think it's a little bit Rusty yeah I grew up in the Philippines all my life my parents are still there and one of my co-founders in there and we have a large team over there here we are 2023 and you have said because I look at these things I research you have said ad monetization will need to shift toward a more unified approach what is that and what's the single biggest challenge to achieving that approach sure yeah and by that mean

being able to monetize off of ads but also monetize off of in-app purchase I think hyper casual is definitely becoming a little bit challenging and more mature and a lot of consolidation there um and so everybody's kind of battling and getting you know how do we retain users longer how do we monetize them um and so for us it's really you know polishing our game because for in-app purchase players they care a lot about the Polish every single animation has to feel really good and so uh yeah the hardest part really is to revamp the whole game uh create triple AR Triple A animation every moment matters a lot you know when players when it's a free game and it's just ad monetized you can sort of cut the corners and go quickly on a lot of things and just launch and test and that's great and we love that but to keep you know day 30 retention High day 60 and getting in-app purchase conversion rates up uh really uh yeah you know our team is really excited about that and that's where they really enjoy polishing the game it's actually with snake um oh yeah we're in the process of that

and I think you know over the next few months we'll be launching our in-app purchase product and the game will look very very different it's like I was pretty cool game you probably should tell people a little bit about it yeah it's been around it's a pretty strong IP it's been around for a couple years right yeah yeah yeah it's been around for a couple years um and uh yeah we've been very fortunate that we've been able to grow it every single year started off as a hyper casual game um just with ads simple art um uh simple colors like red snakes and green snakes uh we actually revamped the entire IP in 2020 uh with uh AAA art um and now we're adding on top of that and so from the entire Studio everyone's a gamer on our team and so when they looked at you know snake IO they're like hey what can we do with this and it's really you know building game that we want to play ourselves we ended up adding meta we added meta progression Live Events customizations uh we're adding a lot of game modes um actually our next feature writing play with friends uh we can start a party and your friends joining and then be able to play together uh real-time

multiplayer um uh yeah and then after that it's like accessories with like hats wings um all of that so we're yeah we're super excited I've been you know fortunate that like the IP has been really strong and growing every year that's an exciting story in itself because you know you think about okay live Ops that extends the life of the game but then you bring in everything and then the community and all the rest of it and it just shows how much a studio can get out of a game if it takes it through and your team must be excited too because it's like hey now we can really do something different and exciting and something else to do isn't just skinning right it was getting a little dull yeah yeah for us we actually call each of our skins characters um and we have a narrative um and each of the characters each of the Skins characters also have a bio and we introduce the character uh we uh in our narrative we have different worlds that the snakes come from and they're all biomes and we have eight biomes and each of the snakes come from one of those

biomes and the personality we put a lot of effort into and so I think we're one of the very few hyper casual Studios that care about the IP and care about the narrative and care about the world and why people are playing our game and I think that that's a big part of our success hyper casual is like this I think I think of hyper casuals like the parallel to like you know social media where you get on Snap or you go to Instagram and you have the story which is like five seconds to maybe like I don't know 10 seconds long hyper casuals those kind of the same genres where the games have gone from long form to as short as five seconds right like and they go up to like a minute but you I think you were talking about like oh you you got an IP that you've driven from the hyper casual to like almost like a casual bass and you mentioning do ads and you do like uh you know basically in-apps and other types of AD Revenue where do you kind of fit in the ad units that could optimize because it's interesting you've evolved from the hyper casual which usually has like five place basements generally in most hyper casual games within one minute but then but then you guys have a little bit of a

longer play time in your game specifically too yeah yeah definitely yeah so our users uh on their first day like that they play Snake they play about 15 20 minutes uh they'll die like 10 times and then watch a lot of ads uh but on the third by the you know by the day 30 like they're really good at the game they play for an hour or two and they maybe die once and so the way we monetize is very different from their early life cycle versus later life cycle early life cycle it's very interstitial driven uh because they die a lot and we can show interstitials whereas late life cycle it's very RV driven uh where now they care about the Skins they care about the characters they've read the character bios and they want to collect these uh characters and we run Live Events uh they actually have to watch an RV uh to play the Live Events um and uh yeah for the you know I think for day 30 users pretty much 90 of them will participate in all of our Live Events and so it's very very meaningful uh revenue for us and so um yeah and and so we're super excited to be able to you know build more game modes and all of that and uh and

actually with the party mode they'll be able to add friends and play together and also spectate each other um so once you know say we're in the same party and then I die and then I can watch you know how you guys are playing and Share the Fun um well yeah we're really really excited yeah super smart I have to follow up on the live Ops and the Live Events because you know I've I've seen the evolution of that and a lot of it was very straightforward or maybe picking up on seasonality just sort of easy Hooks and easy ideas but you you're obviously pushing the envelope with your game what are the live Ops looking like yeah yeah the light bulbs are doing really well for us I would say when we run them revenue is probably like 20 30 higher uh arpdale on a daily basis and so we run them once a month uh we release four four new characters on it's themed like you know let's say this month I think is Space theme uh next month uh TBD we know secret the release next time um and yeah and I think just in our

community is very very uh involved and they love it and uh yeah we get a lot of feedback and a lot of them even say okay here's a new idea for your next live event why don't you do this once you do that we have even people already uh submitting you know uh character sort of sketches is and that's how we know that like you know people care about this metaverse and this YouTube you know we know that you see ugc will work is because we already organically get ideas from our community and so yeah Live Events work really well uh it's objective driven and so they have to get a certain score to unlock the first character and second character and then third character and then the last one is like a boss snake um that is like a legendary uh status that has a lot of details and um I mean they actually compete in the leaderboard so like uh every 500 players will be on one leaderboard and only top 200 get the character and so uh yeah it's pretty competitive at the very end but uh the initial conditions are very easy and so that allows the whole funnel to be uh really really good in terms of allowing hyper casual players to play

but then also you know casual and then midcourne hardcore players so I would say our hardcore players are the ones that get you know the top 200 and even you know top 100 or top 50 uh in the live event and so we've really you know thought deep on how to design a game that we call as UNIF fight casual which is you know hyper casual casual midcore hardcore we want to cater to everybody um yeah casual yeah because I was thinking like if you've heard about the mid casual but yeah that's cool yeah yeah and we know that you know future uh of UA will be less and less targeting more privacy uh and for us from beginning you know we've been like hey we want to design a game truly for everybody um and so uh yeah we know we're very fortunate snake is yeah doing really well we've seen I mean you've talked about the involvement of like a hyper casual and Casual ip2 like a more unified casual which I like that name a lot in the ad Tech world I've been in it for like since Inception mobile you had the traditional like Banner interstitial which is the full screen ads and the two things that really has changed really in

like since the mobile has launched is rewarded video which you were talking about you've used and playables playable being like a mini game and uh those I actually seen the most success for uh most of our uh Partners um as far as Lyft is concerned and and the playables I was really catchy speaking of like content is those that like have like a a fun interactive at the very beginning that everybody's like aha I gotta play with that like do you uh do you use like playables as an active way to grow user base um and then do you have like like a best part of your game mechanics into that playable or uh yeah playables work really well for us I would say probably like 30 of our downloads are playables and then the rest of our videos um and then uh playables you know we'd really want to thank a mini girl in mind works uh we uh their exclusives or playable partner and they make the playables with us with our creatives team and we've been very successful making these playables and uh we have tested sort of like alternative like non-game like sort of mechanics because

we've heard like you know other companies do that and do really well but those hasn't really resonated with our audience um so right now our playables that do the best are just you know the real gameplay and we see really good retention typically playables have better slightly better retention than video yeah we've definitely tested a lot but I think that you know the basic game the core game and enjoying that I think is what we've seen to be most successful it sounds to me as if you even come in and start to shape or at least consult or advise on a really awesome playable what works what doesn't yeah we get Hands-On and we have kind of a different approach we have this platform called play Turbo just want to kind of uh you know play with the the creative the design the Skins videos you can it's easy localization yeah yeah self-serve we localize in 15 languages that's what helps us a lot yes yes so speaking of like uh creating like a playable you can launch in and localize I've seen um from our like uh you know boost effect on playables up to like a 40 uplift for our

partners in like the US and like the big markets in China and then up to like 80 uplift sometimes in up in developing countries even to a certain extent uh top tier markets like Japan and Korea yeah what are the just curious what the key components are of a play table that can hit these numbers is it just what he's saying just be very imaginative with your narrative use real gameplay it seems like there's something more something where you're advising him that maybe you can advise everyone so one of the big bets we've done as uh we've been 100 bidding as a network uh it's something that like we went all in in 2021 early uh I guess the like the initial mediation was Max they got acquired by app Lovin we went in with them at that time Mo Pub when it was a Twitter and a level playing Iron source so we said this is the way we're going to get in and the reason why is traditionally the waterfall setup was so manual so granular you're literally talking about like one dollar five dollar ten dollar and you're putting every ad unit in every country and AD

tags up to like a hundred dollars for some of the top Premier applications like his so someone like CK is like I don't need to do all that I just go live and it's almost I call like stock trading before advertising we're bidding in real time and 24 hours a day for his inventory now and I've seen a uh you know the arpdale revenue stream go up for most of our Publishers uh and so I hear great success with people like CK and others and it makes me excited I mean that's that's been like a you know pretty exciting thing for us as a network and and so forth now uh we've been able to go from a no-name network to be the top 10. which has been pretty exciting with apps flyer or just 10 gen uh three for us and the other bet I have to be honest is uh we went all in with iOS 14 plus so we've been able to go and have like the compatibility there so if anybody says we want to use scan we're like fine let's let's we're able to do that um you know you know so and that we generally advise people to say like you

know there's a 48-hour window to help kind of align the MMP data with ours and um generally by then you should know we'll perform well and then there's like it depends on the app if it's hyper casual usually within like 48 to seven days max that game is optimized some casual it's 14 days and then some you know IP based games Beyond 30 days to 120 days so are you testing are you experimenting with scan yeah yeah definitely I think everybody is experimenting uh yeah for us like actually almost all of our campaigns I'd say 90 95 of our downloads are just CPI straight up CPI campaign so not like you know not uh IEP based not OS based not retention based most of our downloads are CPI based and so learned a lot from integral and other AD networks as well but also partly with our game designers when we design games we design it such that it transcends you know all genders all cultures all ages and therefore we're able to buy you know CPI based and not have to Target so tell me a little

bit about how switching from the waterfall to in-app bidding how that's had an impact on arpdale maybe even some shortcuts to increase it by now like Max and iron Source both have very easy a b tests in their platform that you can just set up like you know with you know three light items versus a bidding let's see you know what the difference is and hopefully it's the same or better on the uh an app bidding and then you can just say hey B wins let's apply that and we're done and we never have to like sort of uh seasonally change all these lines uh and then the hard part with the line items is you have to like catch the season as the season moves like for example last year November was the new December uh in terms of UA and CPM like we saw the uplift come way earlier like in November was the highest CPM and like uh and everything moved felt like three weeks earlier it is interesting you mentioned that I mean last year I noticed the things pre-thanksgiving was up through even around that Christmas when generally you saw I was through

Christmas sometimes even past because everybody got new devices so there was a much more spend in the beginning of the year that was trickled over I think the other thing speaking of a b testing you know like testing a similar ad or you know something similar in different design uh has been a big key success for you know our clients as well when they've decided and tested out on the like the creatives or other AD units we've seen actually speaking of bidding uplifts uh generally around like 20 22 growth in the US and like uh an uplift like a 30 to 40 in places like uh China Japan Europe as well um just by using bidding on the revenue stream you're also seeing a lot in the creatives can you share something along the lines of the the wildest one that brought in perhaps the biggest results because sometimes they're surprising I don't try to actually pick a winning creative anymore because I'm you know 50 of the time you're not going to make it but you see so many and also working with customers like CK yeah no okay there's been a couple last year we had

one Speaking of like hyper casual games uh by this goodroid it was a snow race which is like a simple racing uh with like a Snow part of it they were able to like get about 100 million installs uh and they reach number one on Android overall in the App Store last year we were part of that like we were getting generating about 10 to 20 000 installs a day but that's like 40 of their entire ad spend um with just integral alone and they were getting around 20 to 30 dollar CPM Revenue back uh for this application so yeah it was very very uh healthy results in a short amount of time it's always interesting to hear from a company like yours how to get the best results because that requires a deeper partnership a little bit of understanding a little bit more of insight into for example what CK wants to achieve his business goals and that understanding but um maybe you can tell me about that Dynamic and how it can work and what those benefits can be because if it

works really well the returns are massive yeah I mean it's interesting that again CK was talking about evolution of products I mean in ad space if you look back like five ten years it was all about like the burst campaigns getting up the charts getting the ECPI so we could cut the cost down get the ranks what did that mean like getting up the charts of your top 10 and apple you're getting 100 000 installs per day that means if you spent like 10 000 on integral and got ten thousand and you rank top 10 you're getting a 10 from a dollar it went to 10 cents the ECPI so uh now I'm we're doing the complete opposite because of like you mentioned like it's it's bidding and it's quality traffic through scan and other products I say let's start really small to understand their you know the metrics and kpis for that app each app is different each IP and game is different and instead of saying like Okay traditionally may have been like a thousand dollars spent I said give me 250 on iOS 250 on Android just on us and let's see if we could actually reach

those goals every single day and then let's ramp up to 500 to 1000 and Beyond um because the last thing you want to do is like uh you know just have an instant push and crash and and fail and it's not just through mintable I say I would advise everybody to do that through other channels as well um you know there's about a healthy 12 networks to do as supply-side sdks which are these bidding platforms and I'd say there's a few like high quality dsps you probably could do the same thing and make sure they throttle through the best channels and as you said yourself now it's it isn't about going big it's about starting small knowing the signs maybe sharing also what some of the signs are you know when do I double down and when do I say no no maybe I listen to shabir yeah yeah and not go go all out oh man that's a good scenario I guess like a i i ages me a little bit when I was younger there was this funny ad uh that uh Larry Bird and my you know Michael Jordan had by I think it was lays the chips and you just can't have one right you can't just because like

that's the idea is like markers are like trying to get as many push yeah as possible yeah um the quality assurance factor is very key um so if they're getting returns from the the list of users we've gotten say for CK and his Snake app he wants to buy on mintegrol and he's like look I want Roi what does that mean he wants the users to come back 30 days he mentioned okay let's make sure um you know we start with like 250 that they could last the 30 days um within you know the ecosystem from there it's like fine let's now double down and what was effective was it the playable ad you use let's double down on that um can we test other playables in the process and maybe you could have different types of AD units that actually can grow within um you know both like in one Geo to other products because each each ad unit has its own different realm he mentioned rewarded video that's that's still our strongest actually ad unit overall um within our Network I'd say about 80 to 90 of our overall full screen video

you know we're going towards this all you know encompassing our products being like television is the next wave Digital television right uh and like a lot of the game series are exploring this idea of CTV like how do we connect our games to the television eyeball um where you know that's where it is and I think the you guys are technically like a social network you're just a game but like you're technically a social network and it eventually will evolve to having different types of screens and I think the the digital monitors will be part of from as your handheld device to your your home device that you go to and uh create like maybe you have different snakes going to different communities that's the idea I can see it because you're gonna have your parties exactly that's page and social right there for sure yeah yeah we're pretty excited about connected TV and we're definitely looking into that I think the hardest part is like sort of controls like sounds like could be a little bit different per TV and all of that but we're really excited about connected TV we think it's a very it's a perfect format for snake um for like let's say like PicToWord it's a little bit harder as a game

mechanic for TV but for snake it's a no-brainer uh so we're very excited yeah and it would look really good yeah and then all your friends can watch while you play or even join you on their phones and like yeah we're very very excited about connected TV they've got a very strong community and they're interested in the mechanic they love the way it looks they want polish and that carries over also to the ad creatives right and everyone's talking about performance creatives or how do you balance data and creative because it has to be appealing has to hit the numbers share some of what your approaches are like I would say we test five videos every week and then we get like one winner every four to six months wow so um it you know it definitely is pretty hard our team is very diligent at you know just coming up with ideas and throwing darts on a wall and not afraid to you know test creatives and having it you know like flop um so uh yeah I would

say just like a lot a lot of testing um there's also um uh something that's really important is certain networks are better for creatives testing I'd say creatives testing probably Unity is the best they have like a status on your creative um it's like red yellow and green and then then you'll be able to understand that testing much better and their machine learning is based off of creatives and there's pros and cons with that like it's a little bit more volatile because like if you have a new creative then your campaign might tank or might Spike up because it doesn't know the creative yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um whereas a lot of other uh ad networks uh like the learning is based on the app um uh most usually but with unity it's based on the creative and so that's kind of interesting the way they've set it up and so we actually do uh most of our almost all of our creatives testing on unity and that's been easier definitely it's a numbers game like there's no secret we of course get you know a lot of advice from uh shabir and his team especially on the playable side

um and then uh yeah then we have an art team that makes videos and we just keep uh testing and um yeah there's no such thing as a bad idea and we just test test test and then uh yeah and then measure yeah yeah and also seeing marketers a couple of them coming up with their own metrics it's like well if I see a certain cohort is looking at a video for a certain number of seconds then it's that that's a new type of metric for them because they're seeing that after a few seconds it's this type of user is helping them funnel into that high medium and low as well so they're they're coming up with a couple of their own I mean speaking of that the ivr uh you know like the viewership of video and reward especially playables playables are insane there could be up to us like 80 to 90 percent entire ad watched um to the full length uh so that's the interesting thing about those data sets on a playable ad because it's just so interactive you get them at the first few seconds um yeah that's interesting because I'm looking into some research myself very

much into the attention economy now probably some good news for you guys because looking at all of the platforms there is a hierarchy of platforms and guess what the platform that has our undivided and above all sustained attention is mobile games there you go so I guess it's break out the champagne or similar here it's five o'clock let's do it we've got it we've got a reason to have that and another Point around that is exactly that you've got sustained attention that gives you the building blocks of scale but I'd like to hear from both of you how you approach scale you know you have a winning creative you have winning game let's talk about scale for us it's all data data data I'd say creatives if you have like you know 20 to 30 IPM that's like really really good and if you have a 50 IPM you have a unicorn and you need to like run as fast as you can and don't tell anybody here but like yeah so it's you know IPM that's sort of the range we're looking at um and then in terms of row as

um uh yeah I would say you know depends on your day 30 retention uh but like you know 40 row as if you have really good day 30 attention you can go down to like 35 30. and so being very very um uh performance driven and metrics driven and numbers driven uh yeah is really how we scale and once we have those targets we essentially have unlimited budget so as long as we're hitting our row as targets you know like yeah we're willing to buy unlimited amounts and unlimited spend and so um it's actually the budget that we set for every ad Network that we work with is typically you know two to three x like the highest spending day in the last 14 days and so there's a lot of room to grow but we just have very strict sort of row as targets that we're very very careful with because we're actually a bootstrap company we don't have VC funding um and so we're very very careful with how we spend and very uh scientific there and so um yeah that's something that I personally watch myself uh make sure that you know we spend uh um thoughtfully and don't overspend and

you know it's it's fine to grow slower that's fine if that's what it means and then also you know in Opportunities where we can grow faster because our product had a big Improvement or whatnot then um yeah then we do so yeah I've generally seen like games speaking of like the games uh industry it's about 20 if you could hit like a 20 roast uh on average then that's a very successful campaign we've been able to run uh for an IP um and it just depends on genre some genres need 50 a short amount of time some genre is a little bit more flexible and less and Global reach are you excited about experimenting with more Global reach yeah yeah Global reach is yeah huge for us to actually localize our games in 15 different languages uh our number one Geo is the us but our number two is Saudi Arabia number three is Brazil uh number four is then UK which is uh I would say more unique to us than a lot of other companies and so um and so we're pretty uh Global as a as a game

for snake IO I think it it speaks to the mechanics speaks to I think our game designers being able to you know create something that really is Unified Universal uh that'll you know transcend again culture age gender and that's something you know that everybody likes to play yeah your return on um you know ad spend probably is pretty good in a place like Saudi Arabia because you're spending really cheap CPI and you're getting like high Roi probably for the Houston just even on a smaller scale yeah yeah yeah I would say our rank in Saudi Arabia is definitely higher than the US I think it's interesting we're like top 20 games like the entire year yeah yeah I mean that's what you have you have Global inventory you have a ton of it can you share some Concepts some campaigns that work for example in China for example better than in other regions yeah I mean uh so what we've seen one of the type of AD units we we see that does really well these like kind of end card within an ad so like you play an ad it's a short version of like a video ad and then an end card pops up the end card

could be another kind of playable could be just another quick uh interstitial that's performed very well like we've seen uh you know the performance be up to like 20 uplift 40 uplift depending on uh the developer who wants to you know Buy on those and in a culture like China versus the United States where even though this is a consumer driven culture over there they're mobile first I mean this is a in the last like 10 years or so you're talking about seven eight hundred million people live on a device and they went skipping like a laptop straight to their phone and they're very open to advertising instead of like spending uh they'd rather do ads to like watched an ad and actually like you know play and then the game studios love that obviously generate good Revenue so we almost Go full circle because what I was going to do now is talk about you know what excites you looking ahead you know we have a crystal ball almost um but I've read a couple articles interviewing you CK and you are very bullish about ugc combined with social

and also metaverse so you know you call it the next big opportunity I'd like to understand what makes you so convinced sure yeah yeah I think uh first off definition of metaverse may be a little bit different yeah yeah I think for us as long as there are creators uh you know the communities creating content we call that a metaverse and you know everybody can create their own content their own level inside snake and the experience that they want and that's like a small universe and of itself we call that then metaverse and so we were really really bullish on that it's really hard to implement you kind of have to create like a little compiler and allow people to upload levels and have scripts and all of that and so engineering Wise It's very very difficult uh but but that's what you know where we're heading towards and so uh yeah right after you know playing with friends and at purchase it's ugc next for us and so it's like social and steroids yeah it is yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I get it yeah I

get we know what makes him excited sugar what about you you're looking into the future and you're excited about something we talked a little bit about CTV that's of course a big one but there are other things I mean there's like Brands and games they're breaking into games it's going to be huge can be massive what gets you excited uh I'm more excited about like you know how how can like a brand actually get connected to games um that's not there I mean rewarding playables are like one step um I think like Tech like snake IO is an IP that Brands could create and use as an ad unit and collaborate with co-ops and integral and so and then you know probably get results that they've never seen before with real life maybe if you're a toy that makes snakes and you want to sell it and make in real time and uh like that's like where I'm picturing advertising going that's the closest thing with games and ads got a business idea I can see all the different colored snakes I could totally see it yeah totally see it get a cat slapping it or

something I could totally see it I get the vibe I get the vibe and we've had a Vibe here thanks so much CK thanks so much shabbir been great having you at the five o'clock Club yeah appreciate it this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market and all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz forward slash podcast and we would love to hear

your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on thepocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the perfectgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian baglo I'm Peggy Ann saltz and that's a wrap until next week foreign