“There will never be another Subway Surfers”: Sybo's CEO on what comes next

As I said, I I don't think there will ever be another Subway Surfers. It's a It's a global phenomenon. The fact that we can entertain so many people every month, so many years after launch, we're estimating between 100 and 150 million people is phenomenal.
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Hello everyone and welcome back to PGC's in the hot seat. Now, I just want to start by saying sort of the obvious now. Now, most mobile hits get a couple of good years in. Subway Surfers is about to turn 15. It's the most downloaded mobile game of all time. It still pulls in somewhere between 100 to 150 million players every month. Now, the man who's been steering it for most of that run is with me today. Um and he joined Sybo in 2014 and took over as CEO in 2017. Mathias, it's such a pleasure to have you and welcome to the hot seat. We're so excited to talk to you today.
Excited to be here and thank you for inviting.

Yeah, absolutely. Now, I gave you a little bit of an intro there, but for those who aren't familiar with you, do you mind just sort of explaining briefly what your role looks like and what you do over at Sybo?
Yes, happy to. Sybo is mostly known for Subway Surfers. We are game studio out of Copenhagen, 125, 130 employees. Um proud of of having made, developed, and now also published, and continued to keep Subway Surfers alive and kicking. Uh we have our 15th birthday coming up in May next year. Um and the fact that we've been able to keep it fresh with new cities, stay viral, and stay on in the cultural zeitgeist is, I think, a a great achievement. We have 4.8, 4.9 billion downloads. And of course, half of those also are reinstalls. So, we have some people that either get a new phone and get it again, then it's a testament to its stickiness. Or then people who either get old enough

or affluent enough to get their first smartphone. Uh so we are still we're still growing. We're still uh I think the fifth or sixth most downloaded game in the world 15 years in.
Yeah, what an achievement. So, Mathias, as I mentioned, Subway Surfers turns 15 next year. Now, I want to take it a little back a little bit, rewind time. So, when you joined as CEO in 2017, what did you actually assume the game shelf life was? Did you come into this thinking like, "Yeah, this is a this is a long-term hit." Or what were your thoughts?
So, I I started consulting with the Sylvester and Bodil, the Sybo of Sybo, in 2013. Uh I joined full-time as managing director in '14 and then took over the full leadership helm in '17 as CEO. Working with the founders, I think it was very clear that this was something unique. Not only did they have a massive confidence in the product and in its lifetime, uh but also in that not not only did they invent something

that was intuitive and nice to look at, it also had that world tour, visiting new cities every 3 weeks. And of course, we've seen uh highs and lows or sort of eps and flows over those years. But but the fact that we still have around a million daily new installs 14 and 1/2 years in, of course, speaks to not only the craftsmanship of the core design, the artist making the things, the live ops team, and and the marketing team, uh all the crafts coming together to make it the the game it is today.
Absolutely. Now, you guys have successfully made a sequel as well, Subway Surfers City, and it that's been out for 6 months now. That's so exciting. So, what's the internal verdict then, Mathias? Is it doing what you hoped?
So, it's not a it's not a sequel. Uh we called it Subway Surfers City specifically because we thought Subway one is its game in itself the viral phenomenon that there will never be another Subway Surface. But with Subway City we could make a

game that went deeper into the law allowed players to progress and chase and upgrade things. And the verdict I think is is still out. We have an amazing launch. We've had between 40 and 50 million downloads so far. The game is is generating nice profits for us. But we also know that we that we are still finding its feet in the market. Because it it was probably a little too close to Subway Surface. And what the team is now working on sort of a a pivot to make sure that it it stands firmly on its own two feet.
Okay, so let's talk a little bit about ads. So City monetizes far more through sort of IAP while the original is still an ads business essentially. So was that a sort of deliberate shift or what just what the clean sheet allowed? What are your thoughts on that?

As I said I I don't think there will ever be another Subway Surface. It's a it's a global phenomenon. The fact that we can entertain so many people every month so many years after launch. We're in steam between 100 and 150 million people. Is phenomenal. With Subway City we wanted to see what would a modern free-to-play game offer that you cannot find in Subway one. And what what that drove was let's go higher resolution. Let's try more customization. Let's allow the players to grind to go deeper into the law and and progress so that you upgrade your character with different quirks different perks to allow you to do different levels in a different way. So, the gameplay also changes with different servers. Subway Surfers um in its originality is very much a clean endless runner.

It's It's paid for by ads. Almost 90% of our revenue on that game is is ads. And that means that we that we can keep it truly free. You can always run. You will see some ads. But of course you can also play for an hour without ever watching an ad. And um and that means that the economics of Subway Surfers only works as long as we are as viral. Because our our most heavy players, heavy users are actually perhaps not spending other than than their time. And we love them for it. So, we we want to keep that the case with Subway 1. With Subway City, we said, "Look, for those who really want to engage deeper, they also have the option to do so."
Mhm. Now, you mentioned this a little bit, but you you said that you've been determined not to cannibalize the original. And the data sort of suggests that you've managed it to a certain extent. So, what had to be true in the design for that to actually work?

really That's a really good question. I think I think what had to be true is that they have to be two distinctly different gaming experiences. Subway 1 is an endless run. And once you find the the flow in playing Subway 1, it almost becomes like a musical game. The flow of swiping left, right, up, down means that for those who enjoy the game, including myself, it's actually not that twitchy. It's It's the the hard part is to manage your flow. Whereas Subway City, we wanted to make even harder. So, in Subway City, you will experience after 5 10 15 minutes, depending on how how well you play the game, that it's getting really hard. So, there is elements to the gameplay that allow more hardcore users to also feel more challenged. In Sub 1, we did that with with game modes where we did mystery hurdles or uh trick or treat or some of the other

sort of things that could happen as a side event. In Subway City, we wanted to be part of the core run that it's more not necessarily always finite, but it's shorter runs. That means that you come back into the meta play and you can sort of decide how do I want to use my my loot so I can also upgrade the right characters and explore more of the of the map.
Mhm. And out of interest, what I you and you mentioned this uh something similar that the original still does around a million installs a day. And that's without almost no UA spend. How much of that for those listening and are thinking, I want some of that? Is that a repeatable playbook? And how much of that is just luck that's been compounded over this over this time period?
It's interesting because those are exactly the conversations we're having internally. I actually don't believe either of those options are the are the stand-alone answer. I don't think it's repeatable because I think we managed to get through a window of

bliss in 2012. And it that's hard to go back and and enter. I don't believe it's luck either. I think there is definitely elements of luck to launch the right year, to get out with the right game, to to come up with with the world tour. We have been influencing, we've been adding to the pile, and we've been doing a very authentic and organic way of marketing that game. And that means that we even though we have literally spent zero dollars. Of course, we have spent $1,500 here and there to test uh one small thing, but in the grand scheme of things, the 4.8, 4.9 billion downloads came at zero cost of UA. The reason we've been able to do that is because the product team and the developers, the designers, and the marketing team have been able to keep that game relevant in so many different ways. When we were mentioned at the Oscars last year, uh people said, "How much did you pay for that?" And we said, "We We

didn't pay. We're just one of the most used hashtags on TikTok." So, that means that of course we also get credit uh credit there. Um when the late shows mention us as a gimmick or when people talk about it, it's because Subway Surfers is a game that people have either grown up playing, have played in in between school sessions, in between meetings, or commuting in in the subway. And therefore, the more we can let the marketing team play with the brand and with the IP, the more we can also see that the fans love that we are not a buttoned-up sort of um only by-the-book type of company. We're having a bit of fun with other brands. We're We're bantering with other cool marketing teams. We saw it with Duolingo. We've seen it with with the artists that that engage because they think it's fun that we actually don't take ourselves too seriously.
Mhm. And you you've you kind of led me into my next question quite nicely. So, you guys at Subway Surfers have become a sort of internet culture object in ways

I'm guessing nobody planned it. I'm looking specifically at TikTok. I mean, you guys are hit on there as well. Do you steer that now, or is that something that just kind of happened to you?
Again, it's the it's in the it's in the limbo or the flux between um shots at target and then um luck. So, the marketing team back when we when TikTok started emerging said, "We will meet the fans where they are." That's always been a of our been our ambition. So, if the fans move to TikTok, we will also meet them there. And then by doing authentic content and also playing a bit with what does that content allow? We have dancing videos of God, which is to one extreme of what you can stretch the IP to do. And at the other end of the extreme, we have the pure gameplay videos showing this is what you get if you go into the game. We've done mashups when Squid Games came out, we did did our version of the honey

cake. When Last of Us came out, we did a spoof with with our characters. So, we also play with with other brands showing them love and of course also give them them part of our of our reality. At the same time, our team can see that we also get likes from the people that we that we play with for for for exactly that that this is part of the phenomenon of being online and allowing a brand to stretch a bit more than most others.
Mhm. Talking about mashups and sort of IPs, so Paint Royale is soft launching with Subway Surfers characters attached. How do you sort of decide when the IP genuinely fits? And what's the sort of process that's involved when you think, "Okay, this is just kind of stretching it and it and it doesn't work." Um yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
We've tried different things over the years. We've tried developing new IPs. The guidance from competitors and and partners have been that why would you why would you go too far into other IPs when you have such a blockbuster that could also lift the

downloads and drive reality and can help in with many other things. I think when we've tried different things with Subway Surfers, we've also said as long as it's soft launch, let's see how players actually receive it because the very first time we did something was The very first time was actually with Snap where we did a very small mini game. That's no longer available. But when we then did Subway Surfers Tag together with the Funday out of Aarhus, they um the game was actually received a a bit confused by the players because they were like, "Subway Surfers is just a runner. And now you're sending us something that is not a runner. Why why? We just want more runner." So so what we what we've seen over the years is that our players have also accepted that yes, we tried with puzzle. Those were not um super successful for us, but we could see that the players actually accepted that the IP can carry more than just a runner. And with Subway City, I think we

we basically wanted to deliver on the player um dream of going deeper into the IP. So where Subway one can play a bit more with the outer space or mashups with other brands, Subway City is very true to the underground of hip-hop, graffiti, and and um and um breakdancing, and so the subculture of hip-hop.
Mhm. I love that. So, it's been about 4 years uh that you've been inside Miniclip. What do you think that Sybo can do now that it couldn't as an independent? And what's gotten harder as part of that process?
I think we chose the right partner with Miniclip. We had a lot of offers, so um so we we presented at that time early '22 to around 20 companies. We had more than 10 bids, even though there were basically no deals made in '22.
Wow.
also had a I would say almost free pick of the litter for for where would we like to to belong.

We have been able to inspire both some virality and some some funk and some originality into the Miniclip group, but I think we also have had amazing learnings on productivity, on predictability, and also on product design, where we definitely had a lot of things to learn from being in a group that also has so many other great titles in its portfolio. So, so I think we've we've had both the patience to to try and see what Subway City is becoming. And we've also had the learnings across divisions where we've seen that we do these things great. Miniclip is great at both the ad ops and the managing of sort of traditional marketing. Their their product understanding and their production methodology, it was more advanced than we were. At the same time, we could inspire with the more brand marketing side of things, the IP and the and all of our corporate

compliance, all of our things that that we have proud been proud of as SYBO. When you ask what has what has gotten harder, I think I think that's that's actually not anything to do with Miniclip. I think the industry has gotten harder.
Mhm.
So, what has happened in those four years is that that the development in general in the industry is maturing. There is a lot of consolidation. And there's a lot of of expectation for growth within the known titles. And I don't think that's unique to Miniclip. I think they're they've done a tremendous job within them the Tencent family to drive mobile titles and and show that they are becoming the the leading mobile publisher outside of China.
Mhm. I was going to say Miniclip just seems as the sort of natural fit for you guys. It kind of makes sense that partnership. Um
And what's and what's what's further fun is that the that the 8 Ball Pool was actually also developed by Danes. So, so two of the the crown jewels in

their portfolio is Danish-based. [laughter]
That's got to feel good. Um So, Mathias, you've got this exciting sort of you said it wasn't a sequel, it's Subway Subway Cities game. What's next for you guys? 15 years in, where do you guys go from here? Where does a franchise go from here? Is there anything in the works that you can talk about? Um what can we expect?
Subway Surfers 1 is still our bread and butter. We have a lot of features that we're testing. We have a lot of ideas. We have a lot of things that are still going into that game and we want to keep entertaining for another decade, for another century with that game. So so stay tuned for more on that. Subway City is finding its feet. It's still doing great. It's still a very profitable game for us, but but we want more and we think we can meet the players' expectations even better with the update that we're the updates we're coming with in the coming months. We're testing new games. So we have one

game that is already sort of showing a promising playable and that will most likely soft launch early next year to see how how the players respond and how how we're meeting something outside the classic runners and seeing what that can do. And then of course we've been talking about a movie forever.
I would love to see that.
Yes and and so do so would we. I think that we've had to acknowledge that that Hollywood works at a certain pace or has a different flow than what game companies are used to. So we have had amazing people help us. We are working on something, but until it's there, it's not there. And therefore we're we're excited to to say something or announce something when we when we see something where we're like this is actually ready to go into production. But until it's there, we're also a bit afraid of of promising something. So internally we

talk about the project that is not there until it's there.
Absolutely. Well, we can't wait to see what you guys do next. We're always waiting with baited breath. You've got a legion of fans, me included. Matthias Matthias, thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time today. It was so good to have you join us today on the hot seat.
It was a pleasure, and thank you so much. I can't wait to see your other episodes.