"Anyone can make a game now" — Meta Horizon VP Interview

It complements the traditional game industry. I don't think it it directly sort of steps on top of it or anything. I just think this is the modern way of making games. People that make games are like circus horses. We smell the sawdust and we walk in circles like because it's so addicting to make a game. Like to make something out of nothing and have people like find joy in playing it. It's like the most satisfying thing I can think of. So like giving that feeling to more people, [music] I I have a hard time thinking that's nothing but a positive thing. Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show. The Game Business is a readerupported podcast, newsletter, and video series. If you're a fan of us, if you like what we do, why not consider becoming a paid subscriber? We really could do with more of them. Paid subscribers get a bonus edition of our newsletter and podcast that we put out every Monday called Here's the Drink. And of course, it supports all the things we do, including this very episode. Also, you can become a free subscriber and get an alert every single time we put out a new episode, which is every Tuesday and every Thursday. You can also read the writeups of our shows as well. All you have to do is go to the

gamebus.com for more information. Now, onto this week's episode. Last month, Meta announced two new tools, Horizon Create and Horizon Studio. One is to use on mobile, the other is browser based, and these tools enable game makers to turn any idea into a complete 2D or 3D mobile game just using a prompt. Basically, you open the app, you describe what you want to create, and it comes to life. Once people are happy with a game, it can be published to Facebook, to Instagram, or to the horizon game that Meta runs. Now, this is a big conversation point today. On the one hand, these thoughts are exciting. It dramatically lowers the barrier to entry for game making. Suddenly, more and more people can turn their ideas into something that people can play without the need for coding experience. And that's got to be a good thing, right? But it's also a challenge for the video game industry. What does that mean for the people whose entire jobs are to code things and build impressive 3D art and to animate stuff? What does it mean for the number of games that are going to come to market? We already have far too many of them coming out. And is this stuff actually any good? Are people actually going to play this stuff or is it just going to suck time out of the market and hurt the

entire business? Meta is of course not the only one doing this. Roblox as well as prompt-based gaming solutions and Google has just announced its playground which is basically the same thing. So I thought we need to talk about this and why not talk to Meta itself and in particular the company's VP of Horizon Sax person. Now, Sax knows this well better than anyone. He played a senior role looking after Xbox Live Arcade back in the day. He also launched Project Spark, which was a game creation title that Microsoft was making. And then after that, he became Moyang Studios' chief creative officer and vice president overseeing the Minecraft franchise. He then went and joined Epic Games, worked on Unreal editor for Fortnite, and made Lego Fortnite a thing, all before his current role at Meta. So when it comes to the power of UGC and lowering the barrier of entry for game developers, there are few people out there as experienced as this man. So here he is. Check out my conversation with Sax person. Hello Sax. Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
It's a year you've been at Meta now. How are you finding it?
I should count it in days, but that's

how it feels. I've been uh 10 months. 10 months now.
And how are you finding it?
Am I finding it? I I have had a fantastic time. Like it's I I came here wanting a fantastic time. So to a large degree, you make your own fantastic time. But it's it's been really fun. I I think tackling some of the things it feels like a culmination of a very long career of like a lot of the things I've worked on before like sort of coming to a head uh both in an industry fashion and and and meta helping like bring things about. So it's been really fun.
It does certainly look that way from you know Minecraft to uh Fortnite and and UFN and then here we are at um doing these um AI they're not the word to use tools. Is that is that the right one or or platforms um with with Horizon
tools I would say like in an AI platform tools like I don't I think the AI is the least important part I think it's very much what it brings about that that we're very focused on um that like we want more people to be able to make games pretty simple like the industry has always had modes like when I started

it was it was certainly access to equipment it was like I don't know dev kids like like to develop on the genesis like way back in the And then like coding became like a pretty big mode. And I really think like like one of the big advantages of of new coding models is it allows people to make games including logic like end to end like to express themselves. I I think that that's always been what drove me like through Fortnite through Minecraft before that project spark before that I ran Xbox Live Arcade. It's the how do you give game makers access to make games and a place to publish it? That's like it's such a fun problem to tackle.
My question was going to be what is the vision for this? Is that is that the vision?
Well, I I guess the vision is twofold, right? There's a that's a developer vision and there's a there's a player vision. And the developer vision is very much that it it is allow people that want to express themselves through games to be able to make games like break down the barriers as much as we can using modern tools, whatever the tools are. And AI happens to be like an

extraordinary accelerator to certain things that have just been very difficult. Like a good game is iteration and if we can buy more iteration by by making more powerful tools that make it faster, more precise, more people can make the iteration. Like I think by nature we should expect like more interesting games to come about because it doesn't cost as much to make one. You can afford to iterate. You can afford to be I don't know like like sort of experimenting. That's that's the I think that's the developer vision like allow more people to make games. And on the player side, it's I found like so much joy in in using the headline that like best place to have fun with friends that really these these platforms and ecosystems are not as much about any individual piece of content. They're much more about what do players tell us like did you have fun today is the biggest predictor of like do you have a good platform not necessarily like is the individual game like this particular game it's the no this was a place that was welcoming for me and my

friends we played 10 games like sometimes competitive sometimes h hanging out sometimes ridiculous um but like the the platform had all the content that that made all that possible
I mean it's certainly very an interesting space at the moment and there's and there's some big players in there obviously Roblox is is is been doing this for a bit and it's it's also introducing these prompt based things. Google just announced its playground. Um what do you think makes the Horizon version unique? Well, um, we're very focused on and and sort of like I I think the journey we're on is the we've spent since I joined 10 months ago like really thinking through how do you make games like break down into all the atomic components of what makes a good game like what what makes a game maker be able to to make the game they want to make and then recomposed it all again agentically and then what's the differentiator is that we have we kind of build it all from scratch. We don't sit on 20 years of very opinionated code bases and licences. We sit on an engine

and codebase that's made for this like this that's made to very quickly recompose make the game you want to make and and publish very fast. So that's that's one side of it is like how do you make the game? Well, we we we just think we have the right tool set for it to to make meaningful games that have the iterations that this is not a oneshot. You just kind of make a fun I don't know vignette of a game. Like these are these are games as I've always played games and and the key to that is like continually making sure that the creator is in the center like the tools surround you but it's this is not about a clever prompt like it's about like being able to communicate and make the the thing you want iterate towards the result you want and then finally being able to publish. So that's one side of it. The other side is distribution. I I think meta understands scale. I I think that's the like the one of the really neat things about being here is it's a company that that that doesn't blink when you say a billion people that just thinks why not two [clears throat] because that's kind of that's kind of that's kind of the type of company here, right? And I think

that's that's the the other part of it is I I'm I really want to spend my my effort building a gaming ecosystem platform that is welcoming for all. Not just the people that that sort of is well served through like in like a Fortnite or what have you, but the like the billions of people that do play games that that would love to do it in in a freaking loose fashion to get the game that they want to play with friends. So I think the distribution side is one of it. And from a tooling perspective, we're approaching it very similar to how I would have written an engine back in the 90s when I I I worked on Messiah and Sacrifice and sort of that Matrix like back in the day where like my job was to make an engine that could allow a game creator to make the game they wanted. I never made the game. I I made the thing that made the thing. And it's it feels very similar to to how we're approaching it. Do you see this as a business opportunity for professional developers to be looking at or is this more about what you're just talking about there, which is people that perhaps never thought they could make a game or even people maybe that do make games but you doing a bit on the side or

having a bit of a fun project or experimenting with stuff? Yeah. Do you see it as a business opportunity or or is it more for the other thing?
I think it's absolutely a business opportunity. Um like is it a business opportunity for a AAA team to switch to this platform right now? No. like it's I I think there's a particular flavor to it that we'll start with. Um, but it's still a business opportunity like every um I've I spend a lot of time with sort of like new forming teams that um that are [snorts] making games like indie teams and I think very much my pride lies in can I inspire people to take that first step, [clears throat] make that first
sort of level and get the group together that's going to make this this magical game. And those are very much business opportunities like we should measure ourselves in in our ability for people to be entrepreneurs on the platform
like but and in many ways I think it complements the traditional game industry. I don't think it it directly sort of steps on top of it or anything. I just think this is the modern way of making games. That's my controversial

opinion is faster iterations closer to your community and a higher tolerance for for experimentation. I don't think it's that controversial like I I know I know perhaps that some people it is but it's incre I've been doing this show for a while and and it that's a regular thing that gets brought up not so not necessarily related to what you're building here but just generally faster iteration and and and using tools to do that. It's it's interesting because I was going to ask do you see it as a threat to the traditional business or is it something that might sit alongside it and I guess you've you've answered it there but do you see see it having an impact upon the wider business? Um, it has a measurable impact today. Like what do where do people spend their time playing games? Well, like the headline I said like best place to have fun with friends is what defines like the most successful games and UGC is a big big part of it. I think user generated content has like this it's not a great word for what it really is. Like these are like smaller developers making games

that people love playing and play for I don't know billions of hours. I think there's a whole generation growing up that this is just part of how you play games. Um, so I I think it's a really important expression. I think it's a really important new generation of developers that that are showing sort of a modern take on on how to make games and and what a game should do in order to be successful. But in from my perspective, it still complements the traditional game making. I have the same respect for like um like traditional games that I've always had that are more crafted for in many ways for the team and sort of as a statement versus um usually to make the content that often is much more about measuring yourselves in like how do people like feel when they play your game like the direct communication between community and and game maker. I do business journalism. So I often talk about it impact on the business sense and how much time it sucks out of the market and all this du but at the same time this isn't just a business it's an art form and most other art forms like we encourage we like it when everybody's making music and everybody can paint a picture and

everybody you know I say everybody can or everyone can right and it's just the ability to express ourselves and share of each other our stories and our things and that's something that all the big art forms allow you to do as well you know not everybody necessarily become a a professional artist, but everyone can. Most people can pay them,
but often it's not even the goal. The goal is just for 10 people to like what you make, and that's that's exciting.
Yeah.
I think like like Spotify is is a controversial subject, right? Because they ruin the the music industry or did they open it up for everybody to become a musician? I think in the balance like both things are true.
I think we can do better than that. I think the games industry has in largely done pretty good on preserving like sort of the the premium very defined market of AAA and the validity of of a Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft uh user intermittent content that that powers billions and billions of hours and in many ways like like for for many years have been the fastest growing part of the game

industry.
Yeah. Yeah. in linear entertainment, right? In the age before YouTube,
it was, you know, the idea of making films was something that was quite prohibitive to most people. And now it's something that um
you know, anyone with a phone can do, but not everyone on the phone can be
Steven Spielberg or or you know, Christopher Nolan, but they can all we can all we can play around with it and share things. And I think it's
I think it's fantastic. And I think games when I grew up, I had no way to make games. Like I didn't know like what I knew I wanted to make games. I had I had no idea. that grew up in Denmark and and it's just kind of like a couple of like lucky events and I end up in a place where I go, "Oh, these are the people that make games and I became like part of that community." It was awesome, but it also was so random. I think the the idea of access very much like when I I was on on Minecraft for seven years was just so empowering to feel like the like kids the growing up on on Minecraft how they found ways to express themselves and how all of a sudden they found huge audiences and before they knew it they were running a business

like it's just I think that that's fantastic like something very unique to to gaming.
So how do you see it from a monetization point of view? I mean is what are you thinking? Is it microtransactions? Is it ads? I mean, how do you see that sort of playing out?
Um, [clears throat] I I I think all of it. I I think it depends on where you are. Like like um like there's a there's a realistic thing like they call cost to serve. Like what does it cost to put this game in your hand wherever you are in the world and what's your ability to to to to pay for that, right? And in in in some local ads are are by far the most realistic way that that you can you can have a business like that where you can share proceeds with a creator and like all the things that happens on YouTube. On the other hand like I think microtransactions and and get like download to own DTO are great business models and subscriptions like a good catch all for everything. I just think we should we should be open to all of it. And I don't think the problem is the business model ever. I think it's always the the disclosure of it and and the

like how is that integrated into the platform much more so than the like the individual transaction if you know what I mean.
Plus I think video games have got so broad now and there's so many people with different people play games and different backgrounds you know the the different monetization strategies or different audiences and and depends on the game you make I guess.
Yeah. Yeah. So I think like again like we should make a platform that is where the platform promise is a platform that has integrity that has quality that has like a way for you to find the content you want and and and and match the content that you want and a way for your friends to to be part of that same ecosystem. And from a monetization perspective just focus on like what is the most realistic way for that like for those two things to to to add up to like a good business. So, how I mean I don't even know if this is a goal. I was going to ask how can you entice developers to Horizon? You know, why choose this over UEFn which you know very well or or Roblox? Is it better terms? Do you make a pitch or is it is it the fact that is

it the distribution? I mean or is that not something that you think about?
Yeah, I I I do think about it. I I should [laughter] I do want us to like to have like an differentiated offering of course. Um I I I think the most like what what do I think as a from a developer perspective is is the most interesting thing about our platform one is that it's targeted on mobile like the place where everybody is
um it's unopinionated from a platform perspective meaning there's not a particular look like it is your look whatever whatever you decide whatever you do the character is your character the environment is the your environment the style is your style so I think we're very welcoming to ship to the widest pos possible audience the thing exactly the thing you want to make in the style you want to make it and there's there's nothing quite like that like Roblox is very opinionated from an artistic perspective Minecraft the same thing Fortnite the same thing Fortnite and mobile is not like that's not at scale Roblox is certainly at scale but it's hard to imagine sort of a like a rich

and like a rich artistic look like compatible with how Roblox went about building the engine so like that's that's a part of it is we're trying to fade into the background around to provide the components for the games to be the center and meta in many ways just to be the platform that that that helps the games get there similar to a YouTube like YouTube is not like opinionated about like what content they have they they serve the content that matches up with the players's interest and
you know I see
and from an IP perspective so that's the other differentiator I think for us is if you're an IP then this is a good place to be like you can make the thing that represent your IP like accurately like in the way that you would want to make it distributed to the widest possible audience and with very very little friction and and low development cost. Like that's a that's a just a basic value prop. If if if you're an IP or you're another creator like an Instagram creator, like if you want content for your channel, like you can now develop content for your channel that is exactly how you would want it

for your channel without us sort of pushing the content in any particular direction. This might be a naive question, but when it's sort of like an IP, how do you protect make sure the right people are using it and and uh how does that
Yeah. So like the um I I think in principle there's a lot of safeguards in in place for any any platform honestly
to protect intellectual property.
Yeah.
Like you can't operate a platform if you don't observe sort of all the basic safeguards for for preserving intellectual property. there are things you can do above and beyond that and my goal is that this will be a first rate place for that. Um, so my defined goal is to to go and make this a great place for IP because I really think that that matters from a player perspective that you want the legitimate experience that feels exactly like the thing, right? There you go.
I worked a lot with Lego and Star Wars before in in in my past and I certainly have an appreciation for how precise like a franchise feels that their their IP needs to be represented and like making a platform that's that's good for

that is is is a big deal for me.
I was going to ask as well maybe it's linked to that is that how confident are you in the safety measures and the age review processes and that it's capable enough and I know how important that is you know you're seeing with roadblocks and stuff like that. Are you confident that in the in the tools you've got there and the the protections you got there? Yeah, I'm very confident. I think the industry is growing up and and we are like any company like like to operate a global platform
like really have to be on the agame like like the global regulatory landscape is not the easiest to navigate but it's there for a reason like it I I really I really think for us to develop trust long term is directly to proportional to the integrity of the platform like both from a content and age and like sort of all like from all all perspectives business practices. Um so yeah it's it it it's a very defined focus of ours and we we're fortunate in the sense that like um like Meta's as keen keenly aware as any other game or company like like

how to do this right and we're piggybacking on that.
I remember with the Horizon when Horizon was a VR thing and we had VR developers on this show tell me that you know there were so many Horizon games on the Meta store that it was causing discoverability challenges for them. Um, obviously this in theory click, there's going to be a lot of games being made. Um, how are you approaching discoverability? I mean, I know perhaps it's some of the wider meta ecosystem here, but um, but how are you approach the discoverability challenges that will inevitably arise?
Uh, I don't know. I think the the heart of at the heart of every platform is like its ability to match content to players. Yeah, like absolutely. I think Meta's if there's something Meta is really good at is that like that is like in on Instagram and Facebook like our ranking systems are are just they're very mature. So it's it's not dissimilar to that and ranking is or ranking or matching or whatever you want to call it. Um is uh is is key to a whole lot of

solving a whole bunch of issues about yeah but what about lowquality content? Well, like that that gets spotted really quickly in in in in if you have the right signals in a way that that's not what we put in front of you when you go onto the platform. Um, so I I the ratings the ratings challenge are the same as as as veneer platform and the specific thing around VR that you're mentioning in the VR store and what have you. Um, I can't comment on that. I wasn't there. No,
I can I I can comment on the I think modern ranking algorithms and AI is a big part of that allows you to be much closer to having individual uh recommendations for for for every player sort of based on all the all the different factors that um about what you're playing, all that stuff. Um so I I I feel pretty confident that good content will find the right players because that's what I' I've seen before in these ecosystems. But it is like one of those things that like it's like a daily it's a daily I don't know there

something you should agonize over daily. Are you fixing the right content? Like did the right content surface to the top? Like did any good content not get the chance it needed? Like those those things are for any good platform like what what a a big part of the sort of the intellectual horsepower goes towards
I'm conscious of the time. I know you've got uh you've got other important things to do changing the games industry. Um but um um I to ask one more question. is um where do you see this ending up in I don't know let's say 10 years like where do you see the end goal for this
the end goal meaning for Horizon or the game
industry maybe well this whole movement where let's maybe end goal is the wrong word but because I don't think anything ever really ends but like um let's say 10 years
I think every year we take more steps to remove more modes to democratize the act of making games I have no illusion everybody's going to make a game but I do agonize over like the people that really have a game in them. Do they have the option? So, I think 10 years from now, I want to imagine that the making

and publishing of games are democratized to a point that the best games can find the platform and an audience and and what have you. In terms of like I think 10 years from now, humans are still making games like they always been making games. 10 years from now, a good idea is still a good idea. 10 years from now like you're iterating on your game for six months like on a particular like mechanic because you really feel this is important will still feel the same but the tool surrounding it will just make it faster easier
more fun to measure like that sort of thing and then I think there'll be a whole new category games where the agent sits in the runtime which I really think like like what energizes me is that is I I want to bring about a way that that that gaming is not just a different way to make a game, but it's a different way to play a game also. And we're just getting to that. We showed some of that at Connect. But from my perspective, like that's where we can really like bring innovation to the game industry is to allow reasoning to to influence how the game develops. That's exciting. I

mean, a couple of years ago, I was probably one of those people that's a little bit, you know, snippy around um I don't know if I was or wasn't, but maybe I was. Um around sort of AI made games. And then um I was it was a Christmas and um one of my wife's cousins very a young a young lad who's must have been 12 was there and he knew I was into games and he wanted to show me his game and he it was a wipeout clunk right and it was and it was very basic and it didn't run quite right and stuff so much of it was AI the AI generated logos and all so many um elements to it and um and then I was quite skeptical when I saw it well when before he showed it to me but when I saw it it was never I thought it was wonderful that he got to make this. He was so proud of it and we were all the family were sitting there playing it together with him and yeah, sure. He didn't even know didn't know what Wipe Power was by the way. I said, "Oh, a bit like Wipe Power." And he went gave me a look, right? [laughter]
You're dating yourself.
Yeah. But but yeah, exactly. But um dad didn't say F-Zero.
You don't have no signosis. [laughter]
And um but I thought it was a wonderful little moment actually and I actually

changed my tune. I thought it's great that he was able to make that. You know, I was able to make websites when I was 13 using drag and drop like systems. I'm sure people with HTML experience were looking at me with a scale and I and it's but that that's that's where we started and so I'm I'm hopefully that's that's what we'll see.
I love that that feeling that you like that your was your nephew said like that feeling he had making that game like there's in my opinion no doubt he like he wants to repeat that that feeling. But we said like people that make games are like circus horses. We smell the sawdust and we walk in circles like because it's so addicting to make a game like to make something out of nothing and have people like find joy in playing it. It's like the most satisfying thing I can think of. So like giving that feeling to more people. I I have a hard time thinking that that's that's nothing but a positive thing.
Sax, I'm looking forward to seeing all of this develop in the future. Um but yeah, thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for having me. It was awesome.
Thank you. That's all we have time for today. Thank you to Sax for joining us.

It will be a topic that's going to run and run and run and I'll be looking to talk to some other people involved in these projects in future episodes. Speaking of future episodes, if you want to make sure you don't miss one, you can go to the gamebus.com, put in your email address, and every single time we do a new edition, you'll receive an email from us. We also have a paid subscription tier because we do an episode on a Monday, which is called here's the drinking. It's only available to paid subscribers. So, if you'd like to pay to support the game business, that's how you can do it by going to the gamebus.com. However, that's it for me today. Until next time, thank you for tuning in.