Fixing Call of Duty: Inside Activision’s Modern Warfare 4 comeback plan

This week, it's a double bill of pop culture icons. Activision is here to talk about Call of Duty's recovery, and Lucasfilm chats about its latest Star Wars triumphs. You don't want to miss this. Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show. This week's edition is sponsored by Unreal Engine. And Unreal Engine 5 is, of course, the engine behind the new hit Star Wars game, Star Wars Galactic Racer. developer Fuse Games will be on the show later on. And if you've been playing it like me, you'll see exactly why it is the highest rated Star Wars game in 20 years. And if you're wondering what it takes to achieve that result, well, it meant building worlds worthy of a galaxy far, far away that hold up at breakneck speed. You can now get an inside look into the development process as Fuse Games has shared how Unreal Engine 5 helped the team deliver cinematic environments in Star Wars Galactic Racing without sacrificing frame rate or fluid controls. There's a link to the article in the newsletter attached to the show. It's also in the description. And if you're watching this on video, you'll find it on your screen

now. Now, let's get back to the show. So, we have a big show for you today. It's very much a two-parter. In the second half, I'm going to be joined by Douglas Riley. He is the vice president of Lucasfilm Games. And Lucasfilm has just released two of the highest metacritic scoring Star Wars games in 20 years in the form of Star Wars Zero Company and Star Wars Galactic Racer. both games built by independent teams who are made up of veteran developers. He's going to talk about that and with him he'll be joined by Matt Webster, the head of Fuse Games that just made the brilliant Galactic Racer. Well, I will come on to that in the second half. You definitely want to stay tuned for it. But in the first part, I'm going to be talking to Tyler Bull. He is the chief marketing officer at Activision and we're going to be talking about Call of Duty. Obviously, the series had a tough year last year, but they're coming back strong with Modern Warfare 4, which is out next week. Now, before I welcome Tyler, I did have one house message to deliver for you all. So, if you are one of our UK listeners or if you happen to be in London next week, there's an event on at London XL called MCM Comic-Con. This is not an ad, by the way. It's it's

just a big comic convention that takes place in the capital and we're going to be there. We're going to be doing panels and sessions throughout the show, but significantly, we're going to be doing one on Friday, October 23rd with John Romero. Now, that will be released as an episode of the show at some point in the future. But if you want to come and watch that being recorded and you happen to be in the video game industry, you can come for free. So, if you work in games, you can watch John Romero. You can then walk around the halls of Comic-Con, meet a celebrity, buy a Funko Pop, whatever you want to do. And on top of that, there's also an industry drinks that's also free to attend for industry people. Now, if you get the game business newsletter, and hopefully you do, the links are in the newsletter to where you can sign up for those things for free, and it'll be lovely to see you. I'll be there. In fact, the whole team will be there. Richard, our producer, George, our commercial director, will all be there. Come and say hello. Right, shall we get on with the show? And let's begin with Call of Duty. So, Call of Duty, look, it appears to be in a rough spot, at least at least by its very high standards. The launch of Black Ops 7 in Europe last year was 50% below what Black Ops 6 managed in

its first few days. That's based on GSD data. It was 63% below the launch of Battlefield 6 in Europe, which was its big competitor last year. In fact, Battlefield 6 was the bestselling shooter of 2026, ending Call of Duty's nearly two decade run at the top. In the US, Black Ops 7 actually finished in fifth spot for the year, the franchise's lowest annual US sales ranking since 2008's Call of Duty World at War. Now, of course, Call of Duty isn't just about the latest game that comes out, but our data partner AE, they've shared some facts with us that highlights there's been quite the drop in players for the series overall. Now, this data that it's in the newsletter and I'm going to talk about it here as well, it isn't entirely correct. Ampair tracks 30 Call of Duty games, including something called Call of Duty HQ. Call of Duty HQ is a launcher that features multiple Call of Duty titles. But in July 2025, two of those titles, Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 and 3, were removed from the launcher. And in July 2026, another one was removed in the form of Black Ops 6. Now, Ampair doesn't track those games

separately, so they think they're probably missing about one and a half million players from July 2025 and another 1 to one and a half million players from July 2026. So, it's not entirely correct. But even so, we're still looking at a sizable drop. So, in 2024, Call of Duty player count was routinely just below or at 40 million players. In fact, in November 2024, it hit over 46 million players. Huge number. Now, in 2025, the numbers dropped into the low 30 millions. And then towards the end of the year and into 2026, we're now into the low to mid 20 million number. Now again, the numbers are probably slightly higher because of those missing games, but uh obviously a big drop overall. However, we have had some recent successes. In July this year, Activision released ports of Call of Duty Black Ops 1 and 2, the games that were first released in 2010 and 2012 on PlayStation 4 and PlayStation 5. And this did really well. It caused a massive spike in players to just below 40 million for the whole franchise according to Ampair. And there's real positive buzz around the launch of next week's Call of Duty

Modern Warfare 4. Now, there's really a lot going on with this year's Call of Duty. It's not in Game Pass this year. It's been in Game Pass the last few years. It isn't this year. Xbox isn't including it in the subscription service for 2026. It also isn't coming to PlayStation 4 and Xbox One. This is the first Call of Duty this generation not to launch on those machines, but it is coming to Nintendo Switch 2, which marks Call of Duty's return to Nintendo for the first time since Call of Duty Ghosts in 2013, which was which was a Wii U game. And of course, Modern Warfare 4 arrives less than a month before the highly anticipated release of Grand Theft Auto 6, which is dominating the conversation right now. On top of all that, there's a Call of Duty movie in 2028 and Activision announced earlier this year that it will no longer be releasing back-toback games in the same Call of Duty subseries going forward. So explain that in 2022 they released Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 and then in 2023 they released Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3. So did a sort of a quick sequel and then 2024 they did the same thing. They did Black Ops 6 in 2024 and in 2025 they did Black Ops 7. They're not going to be doing that anymore.

They're not doing that anymore. So, there's a lot to talk about and earlier this week, I had the privilege to chat with Tyler B, the chief marketing officer at Activision about the goal of getting Call of Duty back on track. Check out this conversation. Hello, Tyler. Welcome to the show.
Hey, Chris. Excited to be here.
Well, we we'll get on to Modern Warfare 4 in a moment because I'm hearing very, very positive things about it. But, as I've been saying, sort of last year's game did do lower numbers than certainly lower than we're used to seeing from from Call of Duty. overall player metrics, Call of Duty, excuse me, that a bit as well. So, I'm I'm I want to get your take on it. How would you evaluate sort of the state of Call of Duty or where you're at at the minute?
Yeah, I don't think we were happy with every aspect of last year's game. And we heard the feedback from the community loud and clear. And so, I think with Modern Warfare 4, we've tried to adjust, you know, based on that feedback, right? It's getting back to a grounded, you know, military, you know, shooter. really making it cinematic, making it authentic and bringing that edge back

that Call of Duty is known for, right? There's always that mission that everyone's talking about and and we really wanted to make sure that this title really had something like that that we could talk about and so being in that North Korean front was really exciting because there's a lot um you know for us to explore.
So you think a lot of it might have been it didn't just didn't connect with the Call of Duty audience Black Ops. might be because of that grounded nature. That's what people really want from the series.
Yeah, I think we're pretty public about, you know, the idea of us going back to back with MW2 to MW3 and Black Ops 6 to Black Ops 7 was not something that, you know, our community was looking for, right? And they wanted something new and fresh. And even though there were different time settings, right, and different ways to play the game and lots of new features,
um that tonal shift is is something that they were looking for, you know, us to shift. And so we've already kind of stated that, [clears throat]
you know, in a future title is going to be a new subranchise and, you know, we've already kind of laid the

groundwork there, but we're really excited about what we have to offer with Modern Warfare 4 and that kind of addresses some of that feedback that we heard so loud from the community. I I like the idea of it though when you were doing the sort of the quick sequel. I know it wasn't the quick I know been worked on beforehand, but I like the idea of it even if it hasn't panned out necessarily as successful as you'd hope. It's worth trying. I think um you mentioned a little bit about how Modern Warfare 4 is going to be different. Is there any other ways it's going to sort of you think it's going to connect more? Yeah, I mean I think first the tone, right? You know, with campaign and going to the Korean front, I think is something that we felt like was totally new and different and someplace we've never been before. I think on multiplayer, you know, we have this new mode called Kill Block where the map actually dynamically changes, right? And so this is something that we, you know, wanted to say, okay, what do we what can we do in multiplayer that's truly different? And it's basically a map that has infinite combinations, right? and every time you go into it, it'll dynamically change. And so really excited by that. And then, you know,

bringing DMZ back, right? You know, the extraction shooter space have just absolutely exploded since we launched uh DMZ and beta with Modern Warfare 2. And I think the team is really proud of the four years of work that they put into this mode. And so last week we had DMZ week. Every single day we had a different announcement about DMZ. It's it's really robust and we have really high hopes for how this mode is going to land. And so that's why we're, you know, bringing it to early access.
I'll come on to sort of the coverage of that. But you've got new studio leaders at Infinity Ward.
Yeah.
They're not used to studio though. They've been around for for a very long time. Has that brought around much change or has it been very much continuous because of that legacy.
Yeah. I think Mark and Jack, I mean, they were they, you know, obviously have worked at the studio before. Um, and and Mark left that came back, but it's brought a whole new fresh youthful, I would say, vibe to the to the studio itself, right? And I think, you know, the way that they're approaching it is, okay, how do we be more part of the

community than we've ever been before? And so yeah, I think there was a period of time when Call of Duty was a little bit a little bit more handsoff and not talking to the community, taking them behind the scenes. And I think IW and with the new leadership
has done a lot to really engage, right? So we put out a series called From the Ward, right, that goes behind the scenes,
shows all the um developers and how they're building the game and and actually goes into details on like how we make uh a Call of Duty video game. But I think in addition to that, you know, we've actually gone out to um more events um you know, like gaming events uh than we've ever done before, right? So we'll be at 20 or more.
You know, we kicked things off with Fanatics Fest um earlier this year, which is a totally different space, not a gaming space, right? A sports space.
Um and had, you know, first hands-on there, but we've been everywhere. You know, thinking about Gamescom, uh you know, we had four different booths at Gamescom. We were in Nintendo's booth, we were at Xbox's booth, we were at Samsung's booth, um, and we were also

with Tik Tok and stuff. So, we're just absolutely everywhere. And so, it was really showing the confidence that we have in this game and getting people hands-on with it early. And so, I think that was, you know, coming out of last year, we really wanted to rebuild trust. And, you know, the best way you can do that is put the game in people's hands and let them see for themselves.
That's really fascinating. I didn't know if you've gone to all those events. Fanatics Fest is one of the people running that is um used to be my boss at read pop. But um I have had this observation and this might be completely wrong that the media the traditional media anyway doesn't cover Call of Duty like it used to and it seems a lot of the coverage comes from the influencer space and the community I guess in many ways. Is that just my my blinkers? Is is that fair?
I mean I think we get the coverage but I you know we call it the Call of Duty taps, right? I mean, we when you know, we're thinking about the reviews or we're thinking about um you the reception and stuff, right? Like in a lot of ways, there's obviously a lot of fandom around indie games and excitement

around, you know, new games popping up every day and stuff on Steam. And I think in a lot of ways, Call of Duty has been here for a very long time. And with that, you know, I think people um sometimes, you know, forget that, you know, there's so much work that goes into making these games. there's 400, you know, 4,500 employees here that are trying to make the best possible experience. And then also how big it is, right? I think that's the bigger challenge is that, you know, we have 100 million free-to-play players. You know, we've sold 500 million units. It's one of the biggest franchises of all time. And we have a billion uh, you know, downloads on our mobile game, which I think people tend to forget about, which is much more bigger internationally.
Oh, yes, I do.
So, that huge audience, I think sometimes, you know, gets overlooked. um or just become status quo. And I think you know the craft that goes into these games and um the dedication from the teams was something that we wanted to show this year with the marketing. Um and so it was less about us you know having um you know more some of like a bombastic spot that we made before but

really kind of getting behind the scenes of back to the roots of how do we make our games and the dedication the teams have to doing that.
It's interesting. Well I'm I'm as guilty as anyone else. I did a piece um not long ago on sort of Zelda and GTA in November and I called it the Barbenheimer and it's quite rightly you know hang on [laughter] about Call of Duty and I I guess I mean I was maybe talking a little bit more about what's going to drive console sales but it's it's fair enough in [snorts] observation there's this huge shooter game that's um coming out um just before that. Well actually is is the noise and attention around GTA 6. Is that is that making it difficult to get the message out there? Is is is is it is that a is that a challenge?
Well, uh no offense to Zelda, but I think, you know, these are the two biggest games of the year. And I think in a lot of ways, you know, more people coming in to the dashboards, more people, you know, uh taking the dust off their Xbox or PlayStation and starting to play again and loading up that experience is going to be more eyeballs for us, right? You know, overall and

stuff, right? And then I think at the end of the day what makes Call of Duty so uh you know last the test of time I think is the community and the social experience right and I think the the idea of you know being able to play with your friends right like when we look at our research and we say okay what is the the most exciting things about our games is is it the the combat or the gunplay it's actually my friends are there right and or I'm able to spend time with my friends and so you know I think that still you know we stand on our own there where you know being able to play with your friends on all different platforms right from Switch 2 this year which is a new platform for us you know all the way to PC and Xbox and and PlayStation still um you know I think makes it a unique opportunity um and it's an exciting time for gaming like if more people are talking about games if there's more press around it that's going to be good for everybody not just us but the entire industry
well the early signs are positive that GTA might significantly bolster sales with PlayStation Xbox and and so a lot

of people are thinking about, you know, what's what's the second game? What's the game they'll get along? It's weird calling Call of Duty a second game. I have to say of a certain scale, but um are you thinking about that? Like, you know, you going how do we make sure Call of Duty is the game these new console players get alongside GTA 6 or maybe once they're done with GTA, you know, is that something that's in your thinking or is it you very much focused on you?
Yeah, I mean, I think we're very focused on us. like we're, you know, going into campaign early access on Friday this week and and then that game has its full release uh the following week. And so everything is heads down on trying to make this the biggest launch and and again
really the focus for us is to re rebuild that trust coming out of last year. And so I think
for us it's you know how do we build that relationship again and you know this idea of return to form right it's the if you're a new player you know there's a lot to be excited about about this game but also if you've maybe left the franchise there's also a lot to come back to and you we are definitely leaning into you know the nostalgia of

playing with your friends you know I think the BO1 uh BO2 ports this this summer right were huge successes and and something that we weren't even necessarily really expecting. We We thought they would do well. We didn't think they would do that well, but you could see that pent up demand of being able to get back to the good old days of, you know, playing with your friends on a Friday night and and having fun. And I think, you know, MW4 does that. And I think, you know, once, you know, um, you know, people get through some of these other games, they'll come back to to the this experience because of the social element.
Are you braced for a slightly a slight dip in my players on November 19th, though? as as they uh [laughter]
yeah, you know, we'll see how it plays out and stuff. We might actually see, you know, a slight uptick.
Ah, it's true.
It might go the other way of, hey, you know, I can take a little of this and I can also play a little of that and stuff. So, we'll see.
Yeah, it's true. Again, as you quite rightly pointed out, they're different types of experiences certainly at this

stage. Um, this is the first Call of Duty this generation that's not coming to PS1, Xbox One, which is crazy for me. Um, have you se has there been any benefits to it being fully focused on the newer platforms or any advantages?
Yeah, I mean I think it's just the graphic fidelity, right? Like I think there, you know, in some ways um from a development standpoint, you know, it was always hard for us to kind of balance both worlds, right, of being able to, you know, support last gen and also support nextg and stuff. And so I think in a lot of ways
I I think this is probably one of the best looking Call of Duties in in um in our franchise history. And, you know, I think it it'll show and, you know, what we're seeing, you know, what we're showing our our trailers, but also, you know, once people get hands-on with uh the campaign, it'll really come to life of how good this this Call of Duty looks.
It's obviously on Switch 2, though, this year. That's the that's the new one. Um, it's not Call of Duty. I mean, I remember previous Call of Duty games being on on Nintendo. It's not always been franchise particularly associated with that platform, but what what are

your expectations here? Anything do you have high hopes? Yeah, I mean look, we're we're rebuilding this relationship, right? And so I think Nintendo has been all in, like I mentioned before, you know, we were at their booth at Gamescom. We are going to continue to show up in partnership with them. We have a, you know, a co-arketing campaign that we've launched with them to to support the game. I think in a lot of ways they
they want to, you know, age up their customer and and look at, you know, getting um a broader spectrum um of, you know, having an FPS, you know, on there. I think it actually helps them stand out and you know I think they've you know their console sales grown to a certain point but then they kind of stagnated and I think this will allow them to continue to kind of offer you know extend this offering.
Um and then also I see it as a companion experience. So I'm that's what I'm excited about because I definitely have a Switch to at home and you know when I'm on the go right um you know flying to London this afternoon and I think in a lot of ways I bring my Switch 2 with me and am I able to play Modern Warfare

4? I think that that's an awesome companion experience. So, um, and it plays really good and stuff, especially when you use the the controller as almost like a mouse and stuff, right? Like I think in a lot of ways you can get that precision precision shooting and I think in a lot of, you know, comparably it's actually really good.
I've got a bit of a theory with Nintendo. It's not based on any real data, but I've always got a theory that it sort of it does speak to a sort of mum and dad audience. It's like it's the thing, you know, cuz I've I was 2007 was when I first played Call of Duty with Modern Warfare 4 and I was 22 and I am now 42 or 41 and um I've got two children and I don't get and so they got Switch and handheld from the form. I get the games console for the kids, they play Mario Kart, but I always think that there's a slightly like mom and dad audience and I do wonder you talking about the nostalgia around Black Ops, you know, the sort of the remaster you did and stuff. Um, I do wonder if if maybe it might there might you might be surprised by that there is actually an old Call of Duty audience on that platform that uh might have, you know, maybe temporarily ducked out of games

because of life getting in the way who might be um coming back. I don't know. I'll be interested to see if that's the case.
Yeah, totally. I mean, I see the Star Fox poster and I, you know, I got the new one and and it was introducing it to my seven-year-old son and stuff and I think in a lot of ways that that's really exciting. And then at the same time when we're shutting that down, he's going to bed, you know, I can go on the back porch and actually play Call of Duty, which is kind of absolutely amazing, right? Like to be able to kind of travel with the game, which is not something that our community's been able to do outside of mobile, um, which is a different game, you know, altogether. I I think there's something to that. And so we'll see how this lands, but I think Nintendo's been an amazing partner in co co-arketing this and helping us jump back onto the platform after being off for so many years. Um, and I only see that relationship developing as, you know, we have, you know, future titles like Spyro coming back and, you know, that's going to be a really good opportunity for us to kind of go all in.
I got Tony Hawks on PlayStation and Nintendo
for that reason, I'm assuming. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I can, you know, I Yeah. Um, one of the things I'd forgotten before this is obviously I say I shouldn't have forgotten it, but the the fact is not in Game Pass uh day and date this year. Does that change much for you? No, I mean, you know, it for us it was adding a little bit of confusion to the market, right, of how you can get Call of Duty. And I think in a lot of ways, you know, we really really wanted to simplify that. I think working with the Xbox team though, um, you know, they've been all in and and we're just really focused on how do we get the message out. So, we actually, you know, had a 10% loyalty discount. we offered a blueprint with Xbox just to kind of you know we we understand coming off of Game Pass um you know the perception there and so I think we wanted to make sure that we're still totally invested in Xbox and the community there and making sure that we you know have an offering that is unique and exciting to to that audience.
Obviously Modern Warfare 4 it's just the start as it always is. Um and I know you can't tell me anything and I wouldn't expect you to but what what might we

expect after the game comes out? You've totally talked about doing these videos and being close to the community. Is there going to be much of a change in terms of your approach to post-launch?
Yeah, I mean, we're jumping right into season one, right? So, I think that that's what's going to be really exciting is that, you know, the live um, you know, season is going to start, you know, I think roughly two weeks after um, the game, you know, comes out. And so, I think there's even more content coming, right? You know, so it's it's an it's it's crazy when I tell people how, you know, we launch a game and then we're immediately putting more maps and new areas and new weapons and new characters, you know, into uh you know, a live services business and that is always on, right? You know, and and every, you know, uh two months roughly, we're we're launching a season and stuff, right? And so and those to do that is is like launching a game itself. like I think on the marketing side, you know, we're marketing those things with trailers and um and you know, key art and really kind of pushing really heavily on how to bring that to market.

So, I think that's the biggest challenge, but you know, we have a robust pipeline there and uh you know that the team's really excited by what they have to offer in this chapter. It's interesting because I think um some of the headlines and wrote some of them about Call of Duty being down and and maybe not performing quite as well as it done in the past, but when you actually look at those numbers, they're still like most games for kill.
I think I think everybody would be happy to have, you know, like we're our own worst enemy. I mean, like we set such a high bar for ourselves and expectations
and we're, you know, our biggest critics so that when we're not hitting those goals and stuff, right? or when the community is disappointed, you know, we take it to heart and I think the team is, you know, know, you know, we had a similar situation for Modern Warfare 3 where it wasn't out the door um
delivering, you know, to expectations, but by the end of the chapter through those live seasons, every every chapter or every season, the Sledge was building new modes and new uh offerings and

stuff. And by the end of the year, I think we're really happy with where the results, you know, were for that game and stuff, right? And so I think that that just shows the commitment that, you know, the developers and uh, you know, the publishing teams have to kind of win it back when things go wrong. And I think, you know, last year we reflected. We we actually did a what we call a premortem, right? Where we look at instead of a postmortem because postmortem is where you look back and you say,
"What are all the things that went wrong?" But like next year's game is a different game, right? it's a different offering and it has different challenges to it and so we did a premortem to say
what are all the things that could go right or wrong for the next game right and so it's it's a different uh you know process and I think we started the year that way and you know we looked at all the issues that we needed to address and the team's been working really hard to kind of address them all but also get people excited again right I mean that's really what it's about and getting friends together and you know I think we're you know liking what we're seeing so far and what the community is saying about the game.
Yeah. You know what? I I wasn't going to

ask a question about those those ports in the in the summer and and the fact that I'm really fascinated that they did so well. I think it um it speaks to some of the other trends we're talking to in this industry about an aging audience and people want to go back to different times. There's nothing wrong with the the deeper games and the more complex games. We want them as well, but there is a craving for that that sort of simpler core experience that that perhaps some people remember from 15 20 years ago.
Yeah. I mean like also you know uh you know as a dad who is a similar age you know as you I you know picking up the controller fresh right is you know and logging in for the first time it can be overwhelming right like and there's so much going on in a lot of these games not just ours right and so how do you create modes um you know casual modes like um you know [snorts] more party modes and things like that that you know actually allow people to jump in and just have a good time right right off the bat and not necessarily have to overthink it. And I think the, you know, the BO1 BO2 um ports over the summer was, you know, a great example of that.

It's like it was a low entry point, you know, C from a cost standpoint. It brings back the nostalgia of um, you know, what it was like to play uh back then. Um, and yeah, and I think we took a lot of learnings from that and, you know, are starting to apply them to not only this game, but future games of what what they can expect.
Yeah, I I'm quite interested about what comes next. I know you can't possibly even hint at it, but you know, you're calling I saw the was it there's a social post calling Modern Warfare 4 an epic conclusion and then Treyarch was talking about making something nobody's ever experienced before and you know we said earlier you've moving away from the quick sequel approach and then obviously there's a movie coming out. I may be getting ahead of myself but it feels like we might be entering into another period of reinvention for Call of Duty. Um but it's uh yeah that's not really a question was it? [laughter] Yeah, I mean like I don't want to give any spoilers with the game coming out, but I think yeah, I mean I think in a lot of ways this is going to be the epic conclusion, you know, of you know uh this this you know recent series of

Modern Warfare. And I think um you know it's not that the some characters and and pieces can't live on beyond this, right? And and be reinvented, but I think in a lot of ways um you know we're excited by you know closing this chapter and and launching a new one, right? you know and and I think where we go with um you know potentially future games I think is really we we have to innovate right and we have to um you know you know what we heard from the from the audience is they want new or better or different right like and in a lot of ways it's a combination of those things and so you know I think you know we want to make sure that what we bring to the table is exciting um and there's so much changing I think you know the landscape is changing right under our right? When you know, you're seeing um new games being built, you know, overnight and you're seeing all kinds of taste change and and how people want to play and stuff. And so, it's the other thing about Call of Duty when you're when you're this big,

you have so many different
uh components of the audience, right? There's some people that just like zombies, right? There's just some people that like Black Ops versus Modern Warfare, right? Like, you know, there is just some people that
um you know, just want to play a game like Prop Hunt, right? where they're not actually shooting anybody, but they're a refrigerator and they're hiding in the in the map someplace, right? And so I think in some, you know, like that those are all great ways to experience Call of Duty, but at the same time, you know, as a marketer and and, you know, from a positioning and a com standpoint, it's hard to speak to everyone, right? And so, you know, spent a lot of time thinking about, okay, how do we reach different audiences uh with different messaging and and that's really been the focus.
I'm excited for Modern Warfare 4. I think it looks really good. I've heard some of the people some of the buzz around it seems really positive. Um I know a lot of GTA is getting all the headlines, but I I suspect um Call of Duty will be getting plenty um when it comes out in a couple of weeks. Um I guess my final question is what would success look like? What would make you go right we we delivered on that one and we nailed it. Yeah, I mean I it's really

hearing from the community. Like I'm I'm really focused on uh the quality of life elements of it and hearing the community say, you know, this is a Call of Duty that I love and I care about and this is what I remember and you know, it has all the, you know, the elements that we talked about of being authentic and grounded because and cinematic because I think that's what the studio intended and that's what um you know, we're really excited about. So we're not really holding ourselves to a specific, you know, number. It's more about are we, you know, living up to those expectations that we set out at the beginning of the year to deliver on, right? And if that works and we can build on that, Chris, like we can go from, you know, this game to the next game and kind of build on that foundation. But it's about getting that right first before, you know, thinking about anything else. Cuz if even if it delivers on sales, but people don't like the game or it doesn't feel like they delivered on, you know, being grounded authentic, you know, cinematic, you know, edgy video game, then we we missed

the mark and we missed the goal alto together.
Tyler, thank you so much. Good luck with it.
Well, Chris, we're going to get you a code so you can get back in and uh tell us what you think. But um we're really excited to to be on air and hopefully more conversations as you know new opportunities develop within Activision.
Brilliant. Thank you Tyler there. I appreciate those answers. I'm looking forward to Call of Duty this year. Actually, I've been watching some of the videos. I'm watching the Infinity War videos and it does look really good. I hope it does well and it certainly sounds like Activision's taking a long-term view with the series as it should. Right now on to part two of our show. This one is about another iconic pop culture IP in the form of Star Wars. So in about a six-w weekek period, there were two Star Wars games released. The first was a strategy game called Star Wars Zero Company and the other was a racing game called Star Wars Galactic Racer. Now outside of the Star Wars brand, you might think very little connects these two games. They're they're very different genres, but you'd be wrong. Star Wars Zero Company was made by an independent developer called

Bit Reactor, which is a studio formed by veterans of the XCOM franchise. And the game is very much Star Wars meets XCOM. Meanwhile, Star Wars Galactic Racer was made by a developer called Fuse Games, which is a bunch of veteran developers who worked on racing games such as Burnout. And the game is very much Star Wars meets Burnout. They're both games with sort of double A budgets, I think, and they've both been critical darlings. Galactic Racer is the highest scoring Star Wars game on Metacritic in 20 years, while Zero Company is the joint second highest rated Star Wars game on Metacritic from the last 20 years as well. It's impressive, right? Is this happy accident or are we seeing what can happen when you pair a mega IP like Star Wars with an experienced independent team? I think it's probably the latter. But to discuss this and a few other things as well, I was able to sit down with Douglas Riley, the vice president at Lucasfilm Games, alongside Matt Webster, the CEO of Galactic Racer developer Fuse Games.
Check it out.
Hello, Douglas. Hello, Matt. Welcome to the show. How you doing?
Very well. How are you?
Very well, thank you for having us.

Yeah, look at that smile on Matt's face. That's someone with [laughter] the uh that's someone with a good Metacritic score. Um, I I actually look look I bought my copy of the game and I and I and I want to and I want to I this this surprised me. So I I sometimes I didn't realize it was available on Amazon Prime. Um but but I uh I bought it and I saw the price and I just ordered it and it came and it's the deluxe edition. I don't remember ordering the deluxe edition and then I realized that I had ordered the deluxe edition. It's just that the game was cheaper than I was expecting it to be.
Oh,
I guess I was expecting a AAA, you know, $70 price game. So I the fact that it cost about that then was fine by me but the fact it was it was less than that wasn't a question I was planning to ask but because that happened um what was the thinking behind the uh the price point wasn't was it was that a secret mode thing or is that were you all involved? It was a I think it was a conversation with all of as as all of this is is a you know is a is a is a collaboration and um yeah I I think we want as many people to try and to get into this game as we possibly can and and that felt like a like the right a

right value proposition for
uh for achieving that aim really. I I think we've got an incredible amount of scope and quality uh in this experience. So it's uh I think it's it's terrific value for money. We had Lyrical Games come on the show. They're releasing a game this month and they also set a sort of I wouldn't call it a budget price, but a sort of lower than AAA level price that we would normally expect. And they said it's because of GTA. [laughter]
Right. Okay.
No, I think
we're all trying to figure out a way to navigate around that in our own special way. [laughter]
Okay. I know it's early. We've only The game's only just come out. The scores are great. How is it all How are you feeling? How's it all going so far?
Uh, we're thrilled. I mean, it was an emotional moment when the when the review embargo lift, I think on Friday. I was uh I I was traveling, wanted to get away for a few days just before No, not not to get away from it all, but uh I I don't know. We you go through these things, you know, making a game is

difficult. Launching a game is is is is hard as well. And you have this moment where or or you're so fixated on everything that's wrong at the end of when you're finally something that that you're constantly looking for things to optimize or to fix or to you know or to or to you know it you have to remind the studio this is only we know those things only we see those things. So, uh, that launch moment is is one where you're you're sort of transitioning away from that mode and into a my goodness, what are people going to think about it? And and it felt like we had something good, but to see it to see that um reflected back in in the critical reception and now that we've launched in some of the wonderful comments that we're seeing from people that have thankfully, like you have, Chris, uh, supported a small independent studio by buying the game. That's great. Um, we're we're we're really thrilled. Yeah, I we believed in this from the very beginning and I think Matt, you hit it right is you are too close to it in

the months leading up to the launch to be a true neutral observer of it. But I've always from the beginning this is this was a thing that if we just did what we can do together, we were going to have something that people really loved. Now I know that the journey on this was like after three days after setting up Fuse Matt you spoke to Lucas and then is it three three weeks you had three three months you had a prototype and then here we are 3 years
it was yeah three and a half weeks three and a half weeks three and a half months three and a half years is my is my small little mantra at the moment and nothing at all to do with why I gave up smoking about 15 years ago that someone said to me it's two days two weeks two months two years apparently so I must have been reflecting on that strangely when it got when I got to that one but it was yeah three and a half weeks we we went and uh we flew over to see Douglas and um you know the the fact that we've we've had a sort of working relationship for a number of years uh the Douglas and and the crew there were very kind to to accept a meeting from us and to to hear what we had to say and felt it was a

good idea and we progressed on on that and three and a half months later we had I think about 20 people on a prototype that we felt was beginning to show promise and then three and a half three and a half years later we'd actually gone So, you know, to get to get onto that disc of yours, you know, we we have to finish it up front. And it's really important to us actually that the that what's on the disc is as good as we can possibly make it. And uh yeah and clearly we have the the opportunity to patch things later but uh what is on the disc um is a is a really wonderful expression and and and that but that journey it's a nice it's a nice wrap up I think of the time but also it's a reflection of you the incredible support and belief that we had from from Douglas and his team there at Lucas Games that to to support us there was just five of us uh and with a big idea I suppose and you know and to to support us and and to to offer up even when before we had any sort of official relationships with anybody else. That belief and that commitment to

to get engaged and um uh and collaborate from from such an early time was a really profound was really profound for us now when we when we look to reflect on reflect on it. It's you know pivotally a pivotal moment for us and and profoundly important.
Yeah. Yeah, I think the thing that Matt's uh being very gracious and humble about it and yes, true. It was true. It was him and as you know, four merry band of uh mates, you know, trying to convince us to to make a racing game. But but I I really have to emphasize how important it was that we had worked with them together that we'd had an experience with that leadership. I've been very fortunate to work with some of the best teams being some of the best stuff in the in the world. And maybe this is a personal thing, but the burnout games are um a trigger for many blurry eyed mornings over the years. And so I obviously have a lot of affinity for the things that that that the Fuse team had done in the past. And it was not a question of do we do this? Like how how do we find a way to make this work from the very beginning?

But it seems quite fast, Matt, to have to launch this go from launching a studio to having a game in three and a half years. It feels fast to me. I mean, how have you pulled it off? I think we felt like we were going quickly when when we talk about it in those terms of, you know, having something stood up pretty quickly. Um, when you talk in weeks and months, that sounds fast. As soon as you start talking in years, it feels like it well, after years, it doesn't feel fast at all. Um, but but the the things that folks are telling, I I think it is fast. um to go from zero and and it really was it really was from zero um to to DN in three and a half years and a little bit later to to where we are now but and everything that that's involved and and and also at the time I remember about sort of 6 months in somebody saying to me uh wow you're brave starting a studio in 2023 and I was like yeah am I am I am I missing something yes you were I was missing something [laughter] I don't know I got I must some sort of naivity

that I've got in me. But we we went on a journey and you know and maybe that naivity was was was was what took us what took us through.
Um maybe not knowing sometimes is is of value. But uh yeah, I think you're right. We we stood up the studio. We've stood up all of everything that we've learned has led us to here though. So we knew that you got to build a great team to build a great game. So that's that's the starting point.
Can I ask about this Luna partnership? How did that come about? It surprised me. Um, it was it was it was an interesting thing to see at launch day and day in in there. Why does it work for a game like this? What tell me about it.
I think it's just just a really good opportunity to get I mean when I when I reflect back on I think a game like this deserves to be on as many platforms as we can possibly get it or in as many hands as we can possibly get it and and uh and the modern gaming landscape is one that there's lots of opportunity and there's lots of competition. So, how can we how can we continue to find ways in which to get a game like this in particular? I think a game like this

where when you hold it in your hands, that's as much a part of getting it as
watching a video or seeing somebody else play or reading something about it, you know, and that was one of the reasons why why the, you know, getting out to Gamescom and and and and getting it into people's hands there is is really empowerful because that's when you that's when you believe. And uh and so we felt that that was a great opportunity for us to to do something there to see how something like this that we had spent an awful lot of time on from from day zero in terms of its feel but also in terms of its technical technical objectives of of you know low latency, high frame rate, high consistent frame rate. How does that work for on a streaming platform? And it's pretty good.
Guess the dream, Douglas, is to get this on Disney Plus, right? That's the uh Oh, [laughter]
there is a dream. There is a dream.
Um I ask you a specific question which is when we spoke earlier this year, you said about how I think is is it it might have been all your codev partners or

most of the codev partners you work were UK based and I sort of thought that was interesting since then um is I've had loads of conversations with some of the developers that outsource to cheaper locations or or work with that. So I'm interested why was it important? Yeah. Well, it's it's part of a a broader strategy that that we had that we had as along with the big idea of making a a racing game inside of this the Star Wars galaxy. It was how do we as a a new young studio punch above our weight? I guess it would would be the the metaphor and um how do you do that in a modern way where where games are expensive where lots of the talent is in a high cost location and our assertion was scale capacity and capability don't scale the studio. So we we concentrate on the core and building that just incredibly val valuable and vital core team and then supplement that with uh capabilities and capacities that we will bring in. Now it just so happened that development landscape in the UK really lends itself to that
and so we think about distributed

development as we call it across three vectors really. There's the further out relation from a relationship point of view. Um, still a relationship but a little bit more transactional and they're generally in lower cost locations for us. Then you come in and we call in external development where maybe there's a piece of work that we can place wholly with somebody. They operate and execute against it and then and then we bring it back in. And then there's co-development which is closer to us and they're in our standups or in our dailies. They're in our source space. And when that's true, time zone is of incredible value when you want to iterate quickly. And so for us, the the iterative loop is build it fast, review it, change it. Um the more times you go through that loop, the better something gets. So optimizing when you when you have people close in, optimizing on high frequency communication is important. But it just so happens that there are a number of partners that we have around the UK that were that were pretty much an extension of our team and their location was of value, but also um their

expertise and the capacity and capability that they brought to us was was really valuable. One of the things that I've come around to these conversations I've had on other shows is like yes, you can outsource or to to a cheaper locations, but actually we're in a very competitive industry where you've got to be the best. You can't just you can't just do things cheaply. You have to it has to be good. And obviously when it comes to racing games, UK is pretty good at racing games. So my my connection in my brain was like you got the expertise here. You might then maybe there's a cheaper option somewhere else, but is it the better option? And in this market, you've got to pick the better option if you can. Right. That's one of the um conversations we've been having.
Um Douglas, um we've had two Star Wars games in less than two months. Um both both are quite similar in a way even though they're not but in the sense they're both from independent developers. Both those developers are famous for a certain genre and they've made Star Wars versions of that. Um is this part of the strategy now? Um is this should we expect more Lucas film

projects to receive sort of high quality doublea executions from veteran independents as somebody called it on LinkedIn. No, I I it very much is part of the strategy. Obviously, making the big huge AAA games like Battlefront and other kinds of things, they're always going to be a central part of the the strategy.
One of the great things about Star Wars is it has all kinds of other opportunities to tell stories in different genres. If you can imagine it in the real world, you can find an application inside Star Wars. And so the goal has really been find the best partner who makes that experience come alive inside the galaxy far far away. [clears throat]
And it doesn't have to always be AAA. Sometimes it can be double A. And and it's really about the experience that we're delivering and the fantasy we're fulfilling. And sometimes those fantasies aren't AAA fantasies there. Sometimes they're smaller in scale, smaller in scope. They're
more narrow in their ambition. Um, but it gives us the ability to take something, you know, there's a very

iconic moment from the movies that people love and then pick it out and pull it and express it in a different way where people can be part of it and and and learn something new about the galaxy far far away in ways that the rest of the franchise will have to and and we have that ability to do that.
Obviously, both these games have been really well received. What what does success look like when you when it comes to a project like this? To me, success is, is it a great game? Everything flows from did you make a great game that feels authentic to the Star Wars universe and it is something that that the fans want to to to play. So, it's really not that hard. I mean, we've kind of really boiled the strategy down to something that's find the best partners to make the best games and kind of all of the businessy stuff
will for the most part sort itself out because we fortunate enough to play in a, you know, in in an IP where we have lots of fans ready for us to make things that they want to enjoy.
So, just give them great things that they want and it gets a lot easier from

there.
Yeah. Well, I think the scores for both of these games must be the highest scored Star Wars games for years for 20 years. Obviously, in my head, this is from a from, you know, Star Wars Galactic Racer. That's why I was surprised by the price. It it it looks AAA. It plays like one of the best racing games you can get. Zero come, you know, it looks like an a really high quality XCOM like sort of strategy game. It's up there with those sort of those sort of top top games obviously because they're more focused and they're more genre. um specific but I still think the quality is sort of AAA and I think when we use the terms double A and sort of sometimes it can get confus we're talking really budgets
no no that's exactly the way we we we don't think of it as double A in terms of its execution of a great Star Wars experience
to the team's credit is very much a AAA experience it is the best expression of
Star Wars racing you could probably imagine but its scope is different its budget is different and so we have to try and find I think some language to

describe these things differently because I do think this world where titles are 59,6979 they are lower priced and lower scope to deliver a thing very well and then to stop like you don't have to have everything in the kitchen sink in one of these experiences they can be just really good tight well scoped well delivered biology games
maybe if we get rid of the labels entirely it is [laughter] the
if you can figure out a way to do that Chris like you will be a hero among many [laughter]
yeah it's us that's an us thing, isn't it? You know, it's us that's that's labeling in those particular ways. I think I think we we want to operate at the at the highest possible level of our craft. And to Douglas's point of make the best thing we can possibly make and of course along the way there's compromises. Are you making the right ones? Do you have a do you have that tightness of vision? Do you do you have something compelling from a creative perspective? And I think that's I think the thing that's bringing in a surprise people because the obvious thing here would would be for us to have made a well just make a Star Wars racing

game. But actually we both wanted to do more than that. Why can't you do that and push the genre forward and take some bold creative choices um and you know sort of bring something new and fresh and contemporary to a beloved genre that we felt you know was could do with some some shaking up and uh and so that's that's where the belief comes in and the support and the um uh and I think that's then reflected in in what people are telling you about it when you when you go when you go and execute against a very clear vision.
Douglas, I've got a sort of nuts andbolts question to follow up on all that, which is um some independents obviously not necessarily set set up to work with someone like a Lucas Film or Disney, right? Maybe they don't have the the right legal teams or or or that kind of thing. Fuse is, I imagine, is a bit of an exception here. So, because you want to work with these sort of people, how do you manage that? Is that is that where a middle partner like an EA or a Secret Mode come in? So yes, I mean

we're obviously a licensing business. So we're we're not the publishers anymore products. Our goal is to try and find a publishing partner and a developer or a publisher and a developer.
Sometimes it's a little bit of grab tab A, grab tab B, combine a secret mode with a fuse and let the magic happen, so to speak.
I think we've tried to be more flexible about like who we're willing to take pitches from and who we're willing like good ideas can come from a lot of different places. You don't have to necessarily be a top five publisher to make a great Star Wars game. No,
there are some, you know, hurdles in terms of like we have a high quality bar and we want to make sure there excellent experiences and that means typically you work with more experienced teams than, you know, new teams who have no track record of of making great things.
But we're exploring all kinds of things that large and small with partners that I think are going to continue to surprise folks who are like, "Oh, they're doing a thing with them." Like that might be interesting to see how that turns out. Because again, the goal is to is to try and find a way to

express those Star Wars fantasies with the people that are best capable of doing it. And they don't necessarily have to be the biggest and most expensive studios in the world.
My next question is going to be what makes a good partner for an IP like Star Wars, but you kind of answered it there. [laughter]
Go on, Matt. Sorry, I was interrupting you. No, I was just going to follow up on that that I I think it surprise you when actually well this this collaboration with um with Lucasfilm started from from you know week four really and and that was before we had any of the structures in place. But what what we did have was an understanding of the relationship and how to operate within that. So, because we have an understanding of of what it takes to work with Douglas and his team and and in this incredible galaxy, you just have to build that into your way of working. It's like it's like it's like any other constraint really. You you just you you can't fight it. You're working with it. Um and um and it's an

honor and a privilege to do so. And and they are the experts. [laughter] They are the experts in Star Wars. and that you know and there's a g there are game makers there and that's incredibly valuable because you're not you know I've worked with other with other license partners in the in the past and it's you know it's an and and it's an approval transaction model this is not that by any stretch of the imagination um and so you go in understanding what that's all about and and you don't need perhaps all of the mechanisms and imaginations that you that you might think you just need need to have an understanding of how each other operate what the expectations are and then you build that into your operating model.
It's worth noting, Matt, that you've, you know, you helped launch FIFA. This is this is a some you you know a little bit about this space. [laughter]
No. Well, no, that was that was a I was a very young in my game making career when when when that design happened. And uh yeah, there was Yeah, there was there

wasn't many people involved in that as there are now, that's for sure. I would imagine it's significantly more complex than I can possibly imagine now that the thing remains remains true. If you if you want to be making something and with with somebody else's property in particular like a such a beloved thing as we're talking about here, there's a responsibility to that. So you you need to take it and operate accordingly.
Okay. So what now? Right. Are we talking Galactic League esports tournaments? Are we going Galactic Racer toy range? What's the We're through stage one. What's What's next?
Well, it's launch week. We haven't even had our first weekend. Yeah.
We're not We're not going to get a week to like bask in the glory, man. It's like, what are you going to do?
What now? [laughter]
Yeah. Come on. Surely you surely you know everything else. Yeah. No, we've got to Well, if I'm not being flippant, but it's really important that you we are going to learn more in the next 72 hours than we ever will have done

throughout the development of this game. You know, we're going to get, you know, a few hundred,000 hours worth of play in the next on Saturday, I would imagine. And that you you ain't never testing for that. So, there's going to be things that you discover um from uh a a play and a profile that you haven't seen before. So, it's important for us to be to to respond to that. So, clearly, yes, we've got ideas of where this can go and what we want to do. We certainly don't want this to be launch it and that's it. We're done. We're off onto something else. um you know, modern modern games and modern gamers expect there to be extensions and and um and enhancements or something and and and we hoped to be able to do things like that for this game. But the true thing is we need to do that in concert with the community and um we don't have all the we don't have all the answers. So, we need to we need to see we need to reflect, we need to watch, we need to hear, we need to

listen. uh we need to participate together with players and and that will help inform some of the ideas that we've got and it will help um determine where where we go where we go next and when. Uh we've certainly got some we've got some ideas and we've got plans in place and we're going to be talking about them I would imagine in the coming weeks and months. Um but for the most part we've got to we've got to go and see how how people are are reacting and responding to to what to what we've made. Yeah, I think Matt Matt hit on something really important, which is you think, you know, the thing that is going to resonate with fans, you know, as you're making, then you get surprised by something that turns out to be, you know, way more fascinating and interesting to the fans than you expected them to be. And the good news is, you know, Star Wars doesn't just disappear 3 weeks after launch. We have a whole ecosystem of potential ways of taking these characters and stories and applying them to a whole bunch of other expressions that we know our fans love to see the

gaming experience and the characters they played with show up in other places doing other things inside the Star Wars galaxy. And it and it rewards that connected fandom in a a very unique way that we're we're fortunate to have. So, we're always looking for like, okay, what worked and what excited people? Let's Let's lean in and and try and give them more of what they want.
I just want to skim speed a Lego set. Um it's the uh
Well, somebody's already done that.
You can go online and and someone will show you how to make your own
with the with the bits that you might have knocking around.
Is it you? [laughter]
No, it's not me. Actually, someone came up really quickly. I was and I looked at what that's actually really good. [laughter] But that this is the wonderful thing that you've got with, you know, an engaged set of of fans that love the thing that you've made. I'm I'm I'm thrilled with what I'm already see how people are hooking with the characters that that we've all created together. I mean, we came at this with we wanted to tell a sports story in Star Wars. Um, we knew that sort of racing as an activity and and as a sport as existed in Star Wars for a long time.

There wasn't anything that sort of joined those two things together. And with the Galactic League, we've kind of got that. And here we've got these with these races and these rivalries and uh these characters that are new and and and interesting and and are, you know, fall into the this wonderful galaxy and are will are already creating people that that that are going to fall in love with some of these new characters from our from our SC, you know, I think we made our/ Liverpool with um with Hibby, the scouse mechanic, you know, and uh so that and then we got Orient Purr, who's all my favorite, or Biddy Blaze, you know, there's there's some characters that people are going to see that that they're going to fall in love with and and that's why we love working in Star Wars. Wow. Um, I'm out of questions. Um, congratulations on the on the on the launch so far. Um, you're pleased to know, Matt, I'm a lot better at it now than I was in the summer. Um,
oh, that's good. That's, you know, that's the game loop we've got going on. You know, it's practice and mastery.
Congratulations. We succeeded at Rogue

Light Dynam.
Yeah, that's right. [laughter] Um but um uh uh yes, so congratulations on it. I think it's an excellent game and it's wonderful to see and I I hope I hope that you get the audience success that matches the critical success as well.
Yeah, thank you very much Chris. I appreciate that.
Thanks Chris.
Thank you to Matt and Douglas there and indeed thank you to Tyler early on in this episode. Right, all that's left for me to do is to wrap up the news and oh my goodness, there's a lot of AI news this week. Fries the brain. Xbox has formed Xbox Labs. It's in response to the recent explosion in AI game modding ports and recompilations, including big games remix into the source code of other titles, all using AI. In an email to staff, Xbox boss Asher Sharma wrote, "These experiments challenge long-held assumptions about our industry. The tether between software and hardware, the boundary between creation and play, and how people discover and experience games. While it is hard to predict the future of gaming, it is easy to see the possibilities in making great games

easier to access, giving old games new life and allowing more players to become creators and co-creators. These are unmistakably good outcomes, but players even when and sometimes because they challenge our existing business models. As a result of all this, Xbox has formed Xbox Labs, which is, according to Asher, a small group of game makers, engineers, and scientists whose job it is to turn emerging ideas into things our players and developers can experience. Xbox has launched a sort of experimental group looking at these AI could be compilations to see what they can do. Speaking of new Xbox divisions, Xbox has also revealed it XP business unit. It's a division all about extending the Xbox franchises outside of games. That's film, TV, merchandise, events, and all that sort of thing. It's basically stuff it was already doing. you know, it's it's already doing the Minecraft movie and the Fallout TV show and a Call of Duty movie and a Diablo TV show and and partnerships with IKEA for Xbox Furniture and events like Blizzcon and you know, they already do this stuff, but this division sort of gives it all a bit of a name. Xbox does say it wants to be the number one entertainment company

in the world, which is very it's a very Xbox ambition, I have to say. Kaen Walters has been named the president of XP. He was doing she was doing a similar thing before, but actually she was also president of Moy Yang and there's been a bit of a moving around of people there. So, um, uh, it's not a massive story really, but it's the bit, it sort of shows how important that division's become to Xbox. Well, we've got some layoff news. Ubisoft has proposed the closure of Finnish studio Red Links. That's the studio famous for the Trials games, which are great. And it's also making job cuts at Skull and Bones developer Ubisoft Singapore. There are 52 employees affected at Red Links and 70 in Singapore. One of the big conversation points this week has come out from Epic. So Epic Games is shifting to an AI first development model which is impacting it upcoming Disney collaboration according to Bloomberg. The whole thing is that they're really really trying to push AI. Now Epic boss Tim Sweeney said we have a huge pivot underway here at Epic moving developers around to retool for maximum AI acceleration. The aim isn't to do sane stuff with fewer people but to enable everyone here to build more and better

stuff and to bring the benefits to all teams using Unreal. He responded to a few people on Twitter or X sorry and one of the things he said was our more modest aim is to survive the AI revolution and help other developers do the same and come out the other end making better code and content faster. Um I do think making games faster is very important. I think AI can definitely play a role in that. I'm not entirely convinced that um there's going to be space for all of these games. In fact, we already know there isn't. A few other stories. One of a game developer who used to be former Karmama Sutra member the sort of GDC owned games media publication. very very good. Chris Kerr who was the senior editor there. He's launched a new subscription funded publication called Vertical Slice which wants to deliver incisive bold reporting for video game industry professionals. He's sort of um leaning very heavily on subscription for its business model. Um it's big lots of lots of cool people are doing this at the moment but um I'm not sure it can scale beyond one or two people but um if you're going fully subscription only as at least that's in my experience. But good luck to Chris very good journalist. Very exciting.

Power Out Pictures is adapting a liveaction film set in the Cyberpunk 2077 universe. The project will be co-produced between CD Project Red and Transformers producer Lorenzo Dvon Ventura. Some big names involved there. Elsewhere, Sony will transfer 419 global VR patents to Meta. The firm is winding down its VR efforts. You know, they've been backing away from the technology ever since they launched PlayStation VR 2 basically in 2023. Another Ubisoft story. Rainbow 6 mobile is shutting down less than a year after it came out. The tactical shooter will be available to play until January 15th, 2027. The team will now move on to other projects. And finally, in sort of depressing US console sales news, um, console sales fell 15% yearon year to 559,000 units in August. It's the lowest August total since 2013. Xbox hardware unit sales declined 31% year on year. PlayStation fell 11% and Nintendo hardware sales decreased 15%. What I will say is the UK numbers for September are already in and it's that paint a far more positive picture. We saw a big uptick in the UK as a result of the GTA Netflix reveal and the Zelda Ocarine of

Time reveal on Nintendo Direct. Both that caused a bit of a surge in interest around consoles. I don't know if that's happened in the US yet. September data will come in later in the month. So hopefully it's just a bit of a summer blip and we'll see. Obviously there's been loads of price on the consoles which is having a adverse effect. Right, that's it for me. Now we recorded this episode by the way on Wednesday morning. There may have been a few news stories that slipped through the grap that isn't here. If you want to make sure that we didn't miss anything, you can check the newsletter. The newsletter will be fully up to date. We'll be talking about some of those news stories as well on here's the dream. That's our paid newsletter that we do and podcast we do on a Monday. If you want to become a paid subscriber, please do. As I say, is what keeps us going. You can find out more on how to do that at the gainbusiness.com. So, all that's left for me to say is thank you for joining us. We will be back next week with more big interviews, including hopefully an interview of Ken Couturagi, the father of PlayStation. In fact, by the time you're listening to this, I would have just got off stage having interviewed him in the UK. I hope

it went well, and if it did, you'll be watching it on Tuesday next week. But until then, thank you for tuning in.