Who REALLY won The Game Awards? Plus, we review 2025

This week, who really won the Game Awards? What should we make of the Netflix Warner Brothers drama? And we look back at the year that was 2025. Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show. This is sort of our final episode of the year. I say sort of because it isn't. Um, this is actually part of a double bill finale. The other, if you haven't watched it already, is with a chap called David Lee. He's the CEO of the company behind of one of Christmas's hottest gaming items, The Next Playground. Do check that out. Um, we were going to do that interview as part of this podcast, but I thought it deserved its own spot. So, we we have another show today. Um, obviously we'll be back on Monday with the Game Business Micro. If you haven't if you're not a paid subscriber, you may not seen the Game Business Micro. It's kind of a short show. It just features me on it and we talk about um some of the big stories of the last week. We give a bit of analysis of it. It's only for paying subscribers and I really do appreciate all the paid subscribers that we have. It's tough out there in the media and

any support that we can get is goes a long way. Hopefully, you've enjoyed what we've been doing so far this year. And if you are able to support us, you are able to subscribe, um, please do. It's greatly appreciated. And anyway, as well as all that, before we dive into Turkey and silly hats and songs and all those sort of things, we're actually planning to do a best of clip show of the game business from 2020 uh, 2025. And we've not actually done this one yet. Uh when we ran through it, me and my producer, all the best episodes and best clips, there's actually quite a lot we wanted to squeeze in. So hopefully we can turn that around to you before the end of the year, but certainly before Christmas. So yes, this isn't remotely the final episode of 2025 of the Game Business Show, but it kind of is as well. Now, before we welcome our guest on this week, we've got Emanuel Rosier from Yuzu, who will be reviewing 2025 with us. News shared some market data and it's quite positive to give you a bit of a a sneak peek. We'll come back to that later on. But I wanted to run through some of the stories first of the last couple of weeks cuz we actually haven't done a new show for a couple of weeks

now. We we there's been the game awards and lots of stuff going on. And of course, one of the bigger headlines the last couple of weeks has been Netflix buy Warner Brothers for $72 billion. I know it's not a new story, but there's been a lot of sort of panic around it. And it's because and the reason why this panic starts Paramount coming in trying to scupper the deal and we'll see what uh we'll see what happens there. But one of the panic comes from the fact that Netflix didn't really look at the game side of Warner Brothers when they bought it. Uh Netflix CEO Greg Peters admitted that although he's super excited by the game side, they hadn't really [clears throat] factored it into the deal. Understandably, that set some alarm bells. But I'm not I'm not too concerned about it. And I'll give you my take on this. Netflix has a game strategy, has a games team. And that part of that strategy is around building games around the IP it owns, right? It's around games that tie into Black Mirror, tie into Squid Game, tie into Stranger Things. Warner Brothers strategy is broadly the same. It's a little bit more console orientated while Netflix is a little bit more mobile, but it's a similar thing. You know, look at the big

Warner Brothers titles, Lego Batman, Hogwarts Legacy, the DC stuff. Most of it is tied to Warner Brothers brands or associated brands. The exception is probably Mortal Kombat. That's also going the other way. There's a new Mortal Kombat movie coming out. So, actually, most of what Warner is doing fits with sort of fits with Netflix's game strategy. Netflix also wants to be home for kids, which games like Harry Potter and Lego certainly fit with as well. Obviously, I'm don't get me wrong, I am always wary of of a company doing games when games isn't their focus. You know, one strategy shift could result in loads of job losses and entire games division disappearing. But right now they both have a game strategy and they're sort of align a little bit. So um anyway, I'm I'm not too worried at this point. Um it's a developing story. Obviously Paramount might come in and and we'll change the conversation entirely. And we'll obviously I suspect this will be a major part of the conversation going into 2026. I suspect we'll hear more about whatever the next Hogwarts Legacy game might be in the near future. And um and obviously

there's a Lego Batman movie, Lego Batman game, sorry, coming next year. And those games tend to do very very well. Lego Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga, which was the last main Lego game from Warner Brothers, did exceptionally well. So, that's new. We'll see how that goes. Now, another story that again isn't new, but I'm starting to get a little anxious over is uh this ongoing Rockstar Union row. Now, there's the obvious part of this conversation. I really want to cover this up at the start because I'm not uh I'm probably not going to focus too much on it, but there's 31 people been laid off by Rockstar for allegedly leaking information on a public forum. A public forum is reportedly a union forum. Those 31 people were part of a union or soon to be part of a union. The union question is the independent workers union of Great Britain. There's lots of people in the games industry have an opinion on this union. Uh that vary greatly. I'm not going to dive into that. It's pretty pretty sensitive area to talk about. Um but that independent workers union great have fought for their 31 members as they absolutely should do. Um and that's now reached the

UK government. K star the UK prime minister was asked a commoner on it during prime minister's questions and he was deeply concerned as what he said about the whole thing. Local MP Chris Murray went into Rockstar to get some answers and didn't really get the answers he wanted. He was a bit frustrated by that. He did also admit he wouldn't sign an NDA which I suspect impacted his ability to get the answers he wanted. Um I don't know. I wasn't in the conversation but he's concerned. Look, the focus should be on the people that have been laid off and lost their jobs and hopefully they can find their way back in. That's who we want. That's what we want really. But there's another side of this story, I think, an industry element to this story that we need to be mindful of. And the UK government is imminently passing a new into law. It's something called the Employment Rights Bill. It's a really cool bill actually. It's designed to strengthen workers rights around sick pay, paternity leave, the right to claim unfair dismissal from the first day. It's a positive one, I think, but it might prove costly to businesses, particularly small businesses. That's to be seen. And it's part of a big campaign from the Labor

government. Um, and and they they want to sell why this is important. They want to sell why this matters. And I'm worried that they might use this story with Rockstar. They might use the situation in the video games industry to sort of highlight exactly why they're doing the things they're doing. Now, that's not to say I disagree with the things they're doing. And I'm just concerned about video games being used as a sort of negative poster child as as to as bad culture. I've said this before. I ran best places to work awards in the UK, US, and Canada. I surveyed hundreds of studios, thousands, tens of thousands of staff, and you'll be surprised perhaps based on the headlines how positive people think in the industry of the companies they work for. 94% of the people I surveyed back in the day, it may have changed, they did a best place to work awards last this year that I wasn't involved with, but in the past, 94% of people I surveyed for those awards would recommend video games as a great place to work. Now, those data self- selecting, right? It's the companies that enter the best place to work awards, they think they're good places to work. So, naturally, um, uh,

they are going to score higher than companies that didn't enter. I'm not saying 94% is reflective of the whole industry. It absolutely isn't. But what it does say to me is that actually a lot of places in the video games industry are great great great places to work. But the narrative has become dominated by conversations around crunch conversations about workplace practices that do exist do need to be fought against. But I'm really concerned that we might be sending a very bad example here and because of this story government's got involved. Mainstream media tensions got involved. There's a massive Grand Theft Auto game coming out next year. This is part of their story. Now, if this becomes an even bigger national international story than it already has, we might this might be a really bad look for the video game industry. I hope Rockstar can come to um some sort of a negotiation here. I appreciate the unions this union in particular may not be an easy one to deal with, but this makes story makes me anxious from an industry point of view, let alone from the point of view of union busting and and and the employees involved in this. Um, as I say, developing story, another developing story, but um, it's really reaching

levels that we need to be very mindful of as an industry. There's a few other smaller stories I want to quickly cover before diving into one of my bigger stories. Um, Brian Fleming, the studio head of Sony Sucker Punch Studio is stepping down. Um, creative and technical leads Jason Connell and Adrian Bentley a step up into leading the studio. Sucker Punch made Ghost of Yoai, which did very well recently, 3.3 million units in a month. to go to Tsushima. Big blockbuster hit that was 13 million sales globally. A great team. Going back even further, they were responsible for Infamous. They were responsible for Sly Cooper Games. Um the first game I bought it they ever did was Rocket Robot Wheels on the N64. Goes back a little bit. But anyway, well done, Brian. Excellent work. Um I hope he enjoys his retirement. Um and you also Brian, if you want to come on the show, we'd love to have you. Speaking of people stepping down, Katahhiro's Heratada Herdan the Tekken boss is moving away from Tekken after 30 years with the franchise is an iconic loss for that series. He is a famous face. We interviewed Haratan only last month actually. We did talk a little bit about

what he would like to do in the future and he talked about um wanting to be healthier basically. It might end up being his final ever interview as the Tekken lead. I was a great interview as well. Go back and check on it if you have time. Good luck Karasam with whatever comes next again. You're always welcome back. Another quick story. Call of Duty is no longer go doing back-to-back releases of Modern Warfare or Black Ops games. It's not quite clear if this means no annual releases or not, but it follows the disappointing performance of Black Ops 7. We talked about it on this week's edition of the Game Business Micro. Honestly, these follow on games have been quite disappointing commercially and critically. So, I'm talking um Modern Warfare 3 and Black Ops 7 here. So, actually, this is the dust of 2025 and 2023 Call of Duty games. So, actually maybe dropping them doesn't sound like a bad idea. Couple of other short stories. Tencent. I've not seen this game. If you've seen this game, uh I'm sorry I've missed this. Somehow it passed me by. 10centent has invested in Drama Studios. This is the French indie team behind the incredibly looking uh hyper real body

cam game called Unreal. Apparently, the video went viral back in 2023. I say I missed it. Um it looks really striking. It's really real. It's now got some 10-centent money. Mark Mazawich, who's the 10-centent VP of partnerships. He's also a great guy. I love Mark. Um, love the fact I'm quoting you on the show. He said, "The investment will help the studio unlock their full potential and deliver their first and many outstanding games. We're excited to be part of Drama Studios journey." 10-centent investing in a western studio. It still happens. There we go. Well done, uh, Tencent. And great news for Java Studio. The game looks great. I'm going to, if you've not seen the trailer, watch the trailer. Maybe it's it's really interesting. Before we move on to our final big topic, before we move on to our review of the year, we have Emanuel. Uh, I want to quickly do this little story. Annual video game charity event, Jiggle Jam, has surpassed a lifetime title of 30 million pounds. This year's event, which ran, it ran for two weeks, ended December 14th. It raised 3.2 million for a bunch of charities that includes Warchild, Autistica, Campaign Against Living Mis Miser Miserably, sorry. Uh, Become Make a Wish, the Trevor Project,

Wallace and Gromit's Grand Appeal, and WWF. Um, this is the charity that began with Yorkcast and sort of spread out to other streamers and it's where streamers do all sorts of cool fundraising stuff on their streams. It's great. It's a great charity. It's raising loads of money for important play causes. So, excellent stuff. Now, we are going to do a review of the year in just a moment. But before we move on to that, it's time for the big question. Who won the game awards 2025? Now, obviously, we all know who won the game awards 2025. It was clear obscure. It cleaned up. But I'm specifically talking about who won it from a commercial point of view, who won it from a marketing point of view. Um, it was actually a really big game awards. Level Up has released the first bits of data about it. The Game Awards had a peak viewership of 4.5 million people. That's 12.5% up over the previous year where it had 4 million. This is across all co streams, by the way. That's level up data. Now, who was the big commercial winner? Well, I mean, it was Tils Clair Obscure Expedition 33. Um the Sandfall game obviously scooped up all basically all the awards from the

game awards including the game of the year prize and there was a huge spike in sales and players on the Saturday after the awards. Ampair analysis said the game saw a60% increase in compared to the previous Saturday. Now it's worth noting the game was updated as well. So um uh that definitely helped but there but 17.7% of the people who are play of those new people were playing the game for the first time. So yeah, big jump in clear obscure players and new players as well. And there were a few other notable winners actually from the game awards winners list south of midnight. Uh that saw a 32.5% increase in new players um um on the 14th. That was on Sunday. A big surge in players there. That game picked up an award. It didn't South of Midnight uh didn't do huge numbers when it first came out, but it's a great game, so it's great to see that. And another big uh TGA winner that also did well in terms of players was No Man's Sky. 141.1% of No Man's Sky daily active users on the 13th, that's a Saturday, also came from

new users. But clear, not every game that wins suddenly sees a spike in players. It's not that universal. Um Battlefield 6 and Hollow Night Silk Song barely moved the needle at all according to Ampair. Uh but yeah, big winner, clear obscure expedition 33. Unsurprising. Now, let's move on to who won in terms of the trailers, in terms of the announcements. And the first one I'm going to talk about is the most followed game on Steam. Which game generated the most follows since the game awards? And the winner is Total War Warhammer 40,000. Um, obviously Total War is a big Steam favorite, a big PC favorite. It generated 54,600 follows on Steam since it revealed during the Game Awards. Uh, it was a big announcement. David Harour, the actor from Stranger Things, came out on stage to make the announcement. Uh, the game did well ahead of all the other TGA titles Steam. It comes out ahead of Phantom Blade Zero, which generated 20,600 follows. Um, two made a legacy of Atlantis, 20,570 followers. Very close

there. Ace Combat 8 had 18,100. Control Resonant, 16,300. If you go down, my favorite, Bradley the Badger from Day for Night is also on that list, 10,326 follows. Um, lots of new IP actually. No law from um, Neon Giant, Pragmata from Capcom, Ontos from Frictional Games, all in that list. Lots of new IP. Generate lots of follows on Steam. Steam's a good place on new IP. He really is. Um, so, uh, well done. But the big winner, Total War Warhammer 40,000 in terms of follows. Now, for the Game Award winner of the most articles written about it during the Game Awards, and that winner was Resident Evil 9 Recquum. Now, this wasn't a new game. It was announced during Summer Gamefest back in June, but it did receive a big news update where they revealed that the iconic Resident Evil character, Leon Kennedy, would be returning as a playable character. In total, Resident Evil 9 clocked up 1,740 articles since the show finished up until the end of the weekend. That's according to fan census data. The new

announcement, so Resident Evil 9 wasn't a new announcement, but a brand new game that was revealed that generated the most coverage was Star Wars Fate of the Old Republic. and not a lot was revealed about it apart from the fact that Casey Hudson's making the game. He worked on previous Star Wars Nights, the Old Republic titles. Um, that game generated 1,605 articles. It was followed by Divinity. That's that big Larian game with the slightly grim trailer that generated 1,357 articles. I actually have to imagine that Divinity numbers jumped up quite a lot. You may have seen um the CEO of Larian Sven has been in the news quite a lot lately. He's done a lot of interviews. Not all for positive reasons. his AI comments stirred a bit of a controversy. So, that may have jumped up the list by now. But certainly after by the end of the weekend, Resident Evil came out top, followed by Star Wars. Other games that did well, Control Resident, 1,200 articles, Control uh actually came out above Tomb Raider Catalyst and Tomb Raider Legacy of Atlantis, which are narrowly behind. The biggest new IP on the list, Pragmata. Again, not a new announcement either, also by Capcom, uh but it did

well with over a thousand articles. So, but anyway, big winner in the articles, Resident Evil 9 Recreum. But which game generated the most homepage spots? Yeah, Fan Sensus has that data, too. And that winner is Resident Evil 9 Recreum. It had 37 prime spots and 23 secondary homepage spots. It was comfortably the winner. Uh, it was the game the game's close to it. Tomb Raider Legacy of Atlantis had 25 prime slots and 28 secondary spots. It was technically slightly ahead of Star Wars Fate of the Old Republic in this ranking, but Fate Robert did have more primary spots, so the big spots compared to Tomb Raider. So it's all how it counts. I mean, the rest of the list is very similar. We're going to have all this list. By the way, all these dates, all these charts are on the game business newsletter if you want to check them out. Exodus was the highest new IP is from Wizards of the Coast. That comes in the list as well. Now, who was the biggest trailer of the game awards? Again, found sensors data here. The biggest trailer of the game ros and it

might surprise you was 2x KO. This is the fighting game made by Riot Games. It was uh the announcement that was made during the game or it was coming to console. It was coming next month and they released a new character, teased a new character. Sorry. 8 million views that got. It's not a world I'm too familiar with, but a fantastic result there. By the way, this data is based on sort of the primary channels of the trailers. It's not necessarily grabbing all trailers from all different sources. This is purely YouTube. The number two trailer was Resident Evil 9 Recquum. It's been one of the big winners, I think, of the show. Uh, that new Leon trailer did well across various channels at 6.5 million views. Now, in third spot, Marvel Rivals, 5.2 million views. Marvel Rivals saw the news that Deadpool was coming to the game. Uh, fourth spot, who made a remake, who made Legacy of Atlantis, 4.6 million, followed by Star Wars: Fate of the Old Republic, 4.15 million. And more the data is in the newsletter. Uh we've got some social stuff here.

This is the biggest winners on social and the biggest game the biggest the game that did best on social media was Resident Evil 9 Recreum. It was a number one game on X. It was the number one game on Facebook as well. The second best performing game on Facebook was Tomb Raider Legacy Atlantis. While the second best performing game on X was Ace Combat 8: Ring of Feed. Lots of different games in there, right? you know, Warhammer 40,000 didn't seem to do very well in the uh in the in the media coverage necessarily, but did very very well on Steam. Um Resident Evil 9 did very well when it came to trailers and it came to coverage around that news. But, you know, it just goes to show games like 2x KO, which is in a different world, can generate such interest, such demand all over the place really. I'm actually pleased to see Pragmata appear a couple of times on this list. I really love the look of that game, but I was a bit I'm being a bit worried about it. It's a new IP. It's a bit weird. um that it seems to it seems to be certainly getting some interest certainly from the media but ultimately a very successful game worlds I think for everyone involved. Um but that is it for the news segment of the

game awards. We are now going to look at the year that was 2025. There is some new data in this because we've got some we've got New Zoo to help us with that data. So I'd like to welcome to the show Emanuel Rosier the director of market intelligence at New Zoo. Hi Emanuel, welcome to the show. How are you doing?
Thank you. doing very well like happy to see the the end coming to a close. Very exciting year ago again.
It has been the year for better or worse. It's not a lot of you know what it's better than I expected it to be. I expected it to be difficult. Um and it has been difficult. There's been some positives and actually I've got your report for the end of the year and it does seem to be better than expected in terms of how the markets performed in 2025.
Yeah, abs. Absolutely. I I think um I I only joined like 15 months ago and when I joined I I remember people saying that usually newu comes with bad news but I would say this year when you look at the market it's really good news. I think we

we are ending the year at about 1909 billion revenue for software sales. We are finally beating the COVID peak of 2021. So it's really great and also it's it's a sustained grow in this case. It's not like just a one-time event. It's really the industry is now growing back after a few year of let's say hangover. So yeah, we are really happy about the numbers. We actually to increase slightly in the the latest update of our numbers because Q2 was really strong on so many level. So things are going well. The industry is growing. I would say the challenge is still that the supply of content had to adjust to the reality of the market in in in the last years. Too many games. Um it's the uh it's the classic. Yeah. I mean I think was it 7 and a half% growth you're expecting this year which is fantastic.
Yeah.
Strong growth for mobile, even stronger growth for PC. That won't surprise

people. And even some growth for console too. I know it's bottom of the pile but um what surprised you? What what what what surprised you most shall I say?
I was positively surprised about art traders as as a story. I would say in in the sense that to be able to create almost like new demand or refresh demand in the shooter space for a premium title and come with a extraction shooter formula that's actually successful. I think it's great for the industry in general and it should inspire other companies and also let's not forget that our creators is is not a completely independent studio but it's not coming directly from a big big publisher of an existing studio. It's not even a new studio. It's not it's not it's a second game but it's like Hell Divers 2 that wasn't a new studio either but it was newish. Interestingly earlier in the year I entered NCoft and NCOFT had a load of shooters they were announcing and I'm like what are you doing? were you doing making a live service shooters? Are you mad? Have you lost your mind? Yeah.
And then and they gave me some good

answers about the genre and maybe because no one else is doing it. Maybe there's an opportunity.
And then like two months later, Arc Raiders comes out. It's a new IP in a genre that's apparently oversaturated. There's no room for anyone. Comes out in between Battlefield and Call of Duty and then does incredibly well. And I mean I we knew it was going to because it would wishlisted so highly going into it. I wasn't surprised when it actually did well when it launched, but I was surprised it had that momentum.
Yeah.
So, I think in in general, also on the shooter side, Battery 56 also had a had a great start, a great launch. And also, let's not forget Delta Force. It was released really at the end of last year, but it's been sustaining uh engagement on on on Steam. So, it's also an equivalent of, let's say, a free-to-play Battlefield uh game that's also doing well. So yeah, it's u still a good year for shooters even even if there's also some shooters that have been suffering from from the the fresh
Battlefield 6 is an interesting one because ob the numbers are great. Well,

I don't know if they're as much as EA wanted particularly that battle and royale mode. I think I think we'll have to keep an eye on this because though
obviously you know beating Call of Duty is like a big moment in the industry.
It's a symbolic thing. I think EA had really high expectations for Battlefield 6 is whether or not it's reaching those expectations because there was a lot of folks talk around when the game launched and and that kind of thing and how well it was doing and and it numbers in I mean I looked at the numbers for I think October and it was November sorry it was still trending above Call of Duty which I thought was mad. I I would say when they introduced the red sec mode, so the battle royale mode end of October I believe uh we saw some bump in engagement but nowhere near any successful release of a big freeto-play titan.
It's like we didn't even reach the the launch number. So we are also curious to see what will happen with the with the red sec mode and where they will shift the the development basically between the the paid PVG experience and and then

the the red seg battle rare experience.
Yeah, it's interesting. Well, I mean I looked at the biggest games by revenue um according to your chart uh there's some really big IP in there. Battlefield 6 at number one, Monster Hunter Wilds at number four, Borderlands 4 at number five, Civilization's in there, Elder Scrolls Oblivion's in there, but this is this is on PC. but also uh schedule one arc raiders repo. It's a real mix of double A, AAA, and indies. Like there's a real spread of what's doing well on PC anyway. Yeah. And also a big mix in terms of pricing. Some of these titles are 10 or $20. So they they win by the by the volume rather than than by the pricing. So they are against the triple layer at a premium premium price but they are like $10 $20 experiences but just overwhelmingly successful in terms of players that they reach the high the the highest ranks. So yeah very interesting some vit some have come and go also but here we are not judging

engagement we are judging revenue generated which is a bit less dependent from engagement. Yeah,
but it's good to see and the PC is the platform of exploration, right? It's where player they test new ideas. It's really slightly different from the console audience that as as we will discuss later is more uh stable in terms of successes.
Yeah, I mean your your console chart it's so much more AAA or at least established games franchises Battlefield, Pokemon, Assassin's Creed, Borderlands, Ghost of Yoai. is what you would expect to be dominating the console space. I guess
absolutely the console audience is is the AAA audience and they they they really value the blockbuster titles, the high states, the big marketing campaign, the the the well-known IPs and there is less room for the smaller surprise successes.
Yeah, there's I think just looking through the list now there's none of it surprising. It's a EA Sports FC, NBA 2K,

Madden, but should be big. You know, the show
actually was was surprised that MLB the show is so high.
Yes, I guess that is. Yeah.
Quite quite good when you when when you look at it and and uh yeah, Ghost of Your Day, I think it's Yeah, it's a Sony exclusive IP, so it kind of makes sense even if the name is not the same. It's not like a number two per se, but it's still the followup of Tsushima. Does Mario Kart's not on that list? Is that because the bundling makes that hard to track?
Yes. Yes. Yes. That that's that's the the reason behind that. Yeah. Otherwise, it would be it would be much higher given the the attach rate.
Yeah. I mean, the playtime chart a lot of people make I'm always a little bit things with playtime charts is that the games that have that are live service games that have been going for years and have established audiences are always going to trend up the charts. But, you know, but it is still dominated by the same the established order, right? Counterstrike 2 Minecraft Battlefield on PC. Uh Fortnite Call of Duty on console.

G sorry Counterstrike 2 Minecraft Roblox Battlefield on PC. Fortnite Call of Duty GTA Roblox on console. I mean
it's the same old games. I mean it's an interesting thing. We call them old games, but I they're kind of current games, aren't they? It's they're just
Yeah. And I I think I mean Roblox is one of the big big success of this year. And yeah, Roblox being number four on console, why you still consider that 80% of the Roblox audience is playing on mobile, that tells a lot that only a small share of the total grow robots audience managed to be ranked four on console. I think it tells about the size of of that audience. And then let's not forget Roblox was only released end of 2023 on console on on PlayStation at least. So um yeah, that's an interesting story. And the other thing I wanted to highlight on PC is the Peach being number 10. So, uh,
yeah,
that's kind of that's good for one of these indie indie surprise success stories. It's more of a multiplayer

game. That's why the engagement is higher probably than than these more Fenix single player stories. But it's really it's good to see some some fresh blood over there. I do like you also pointed out that the shooters that do well on PC are quite different to the shooters that do best on console, right? It's Call of Duty and Fortnite are higher on console. Whereas it's Battlefield and Counterstrike on PC. I think it's uh it's that old classic from the '9s where it's the mouse and keyboard precision sort of uh shooters versus the sort of more arcadey uh shooters.
Yeah. And first person also called while Fortnite is still third person. Yeah, it's true.
And even a GTA which is not really a pure shooter, but there is a lot of shooting element in there. Also, is also a third person. So, I think yes, combination of first person, keyboard, and mouse that that are still super popular on on PC.
The reason why I think this is important to talk about is is by the way, Emanuel, we've got an interview later on which with um Next Playground

and I've always been an advocate for saying consoles are different. people play them differently
than PCs and they've incre we're seeing Xbox as well and Steam machines coming out sort of moving into this world where PC and consoles are merging closer together but I do think their different audiences have different expectations there's crossover of course but even in the crossover I think the people that play in a living room device do it for different reasons they do on a on a on a game on a PC and I do worry sometimes we might be losing a bit of sight of that and your data suggests that even in the same genre the the the behaviors is are slightly different. Yeah.
And what does best is slightly different
and and and and I think also one of the challenge we we have and we will have it's the lines are being blurred. You know when you have a steam steam machine releasing soon which is in the living room and you play with a controller but you play by essence games that are from steam so from PC it becomes very difficult to really clearly identify a console player from a from a PC player like a steam deck. It handles like a

PlayStation portal. It's just a screen with with a with a controller. So what what really defines the the console and the PC experience for a pure like game play experience? I think it's interesting. The other thing is that you see how successful the sports title are on console and they are nowhere to be seen on PC. It's also already show the difference in the audience. people they like to to play coach go up coach play on console with a controller and on PC it's more alone in their in in their dedicated room playing online at least and and yeah that that's very difference in how people play when they play and the circumstances they play
as of right now cuz I've I've recently got the wrong Xbox alloy and and stuff and I'm a console gamer and they're not
the problem I've got with them it's not it is a little bit more of a faf PCs than than consoles. Even in the ones that have been streamlined like this, you know, logging in and the way they do

it, it's not it's not it's not as simple. But also, I don't know which games work and I don't know which games work well. They've got these little tags on the stores, but I put a game into a console, I know it'll work and it will work at the optimum settings. And that is that is and I and until if the Steam machine comes out, it's got Steam on it, but the only games I can see are the ones that run
um on the Steam machine and the and the and those games
are optimized automatically to the console I'm playing on. Until that happens, and I don't think it's an impossible idea, but until that happens, I'm always going to be a little bit skeptical of this sort of PC hybrid console market. Um, at least my point of view on it.
No, no, no. But I mean that's what they tried to do with the Steam Deck. The Steam Deck you have the type Steam Deck validation
verified optimize or compatible. So you can actually filter and only select the experience that that are optimized for for the Steam Deck. But yeah, I I I get

your point and Yes. Yeah. Still the friction is there on PC. I agree.
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so we're going to talk about some of the big stories of the last year because I think you know you might have something to say about it because my first ever episode of the first episode we ever did on the game business
was about Grand Theft Auto and at that point Grand Theft Auto 6 was coming out this year. It's coming out in 2025.
Yes.
And then it moved like two months later. We're talking about May 2026.
Yeah.
And then it moved six months later to November 2026.
It's caused a bit of a weird release schedule at the end of the year. And I have to wonder how different the business might have looked if GTA did launch this year. I mean, would EA have even released Battlefield 6? I don't,
you know, would Art Raiders even got a look. I don't know.
Yeah,
it must be making your job of predicting a year quite a quite a difficult one. Oh, as I mean we regularly present our report to to our client and to selected audience and I always make the joke that

compared to the last presentation I did we had to update the numbers because GTA's move is this release date you know so we we just have constantly to follow and refresh the numbers because GTA releasing from one quarter to the other move the needle on the on the on the market so yes we have to be very reactive the industry is to be very reactive I would say I'm starting to be a bit tired of the whole industry reacting into one single title and and I I I'm not sure it's good for the industry to be so much dependent on on on one one title and when I even say industry I should really be specific. We are talking about mostly console western world because uh I don't think GTA has so much of an aura outside of the western world at this point and also it's only releasing on console in the in the in the first place. So yeah, mobile gamer is going to do mobile gaming in Eastern Asia whether there is GTA 6 or not releasing. So let's also be cautious when we talk about the impact of GTA 6. The market has grown significantly

uh since GTA 5 but it is not really grown within the core audience of GTA. It has grown around it is grown in other region of the world. He's grown on other platforms but the but the the the console western lancet is not the one that has experienced the biggest growth in the last 10 years.
I think where there's a bit of hope for it reason why I think there was such excitement around it is that the console market Xbox is down this generation.
PlayStation is actually slightly down. I don't know how it is after Black Friday and I haven't kept up with it but it's slight was slightly down. So, a game like GTA, if there's a game that's going to it's going to get people upgrading from PS4 to PS5, in some cases people upgrading from PS3 to PS5 because if you're a GTA, I know so many people where GTA games and the last time a GTA new GTA launch was on the PlayStation 3 and the Xbox 360, right?
So, I think it's potentially a significant launch in the West,
which is where the console industry

mostly is. um for the console market and the fact that it got delayed and now we're into the what will be six years of this console generation. I think that's a blow for PlayStation and and and the Xbox to a lesser extent their switching strategy anyway.
Absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree that the grow of the install base thanks to GTA 6 is a catalyst for the whole industry. So on one way the competitors of GTA they will suffer for the present from the launch of GTA but they will enjoy the increased install base caused by the release of GTA. Yeah. So it's double-edged sword somehow.
Well let's talk about the thing that did launch him credit the Nintendo Switch 2. Uh strong start. I mean I got a bit of a mixed response from third parties and there's a couple that did all right but I think I find that they're competing. I you know Nintendo only released Mario Kart World. Nintendo have been quite conservative with their own release schedule. I'm actually a little worried about that going forward. I'm talking about that in a moment.
But if you're a Switch 2 customer and

you've got Mario Kart World with it, which 80 odd% of people did.
Yeah.
And then you've probably got Nintendo Switch online, which means you can upgrade those Zelda games.
Then there's Pokemon, loads of other games that updated for free, you know, runs better, runs smoother. And then you've got the Gamecube games that are released in the online service as well. I guess on a smaller degree. Mhm.
That's a lot of competition. Um, if you're, you know, trying to be, hey, we'll be your second game. Actually, you'll be my fifth, sixth, seventh game, CD Project or, um, Konami or everyone else had a game. So, um, yeah, I Switch 2 launch has been strong. You had some third party insight, didn't you, in your report? I think I've
Yeah, there was I I think there was a few games that we can consider as as as successful somehow, but mostly the indie games. No Man's Sky. Yeah.
I think the biggest challenge for for the AAA releasing on on the Switch 2 is that they come a few years after they've been released on other platforms. So the the sense of novelty is not really there

unless you have a very captive Nintendo audience that doesn't have other other platforms. So I think that's that's the challenge right now with the the AAA third party games. Um I think the game we are we are waiting for is the game from from software night trains. No, I don't remember. uh uh the dust the dust bloods or something.
Yeah. Because that that will be the real the real judgment on how or a third party exclusive can be can be successful on on the switch too.
Yeah. I I don't think anyone even at the beginning of this think thinks oh it's going to be a mega platform for third parties. And I think a lot of it is incremental. Dust Bloods is interesting. It's a Nintendo t but then I I see it in the same way as I see Bayonetta which is going to be a small audience but that audience will come in to Switch to for that game and then maybe play other games. Right. But I actually am interested in Resident Evil Recreum because that's a AAA
Yeah.
current generation game that's launching

on the same day. Yeah.
For Switch 2 as it works. And also Resident Evil because of its history if you go back to the Gamecube era. Resident Evil was briefly exclusive to the Nintendo platforms.
Yeah,
there is an audience of Resident Evil fans on Nintendo machines.
So, I do wonder if um
that one might be an interesting one to watch. I think
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think obviously the test for me is Switch to Going Border. I was actually catching up with a few people at Nintendo that the Game Awards. They're obviously very happy with the launch, but they're like now it's the next stage. Now it's like can we go broader? And for that is going to be about the games. The price I think is a bit of a problem for them, but it's going to be about the games. And their big reveal at the last Nintendo Direct was Fire Emblem. That's not that's not the game that's going to move the the needle at the system seller.
No, I mean, I love for him. Um, but it's a three four million seller normally. Um, sorry, at its peak. Not normally. So, for me, I'm interested to see what Nintendo has to keep it momentum going.
You need an exclusive Mario or Zelda and

that that will convert the people to the new to the new Switch 2. I I think anything other than that would be would be a nice to have. But I think that that's that's that's what they need and I'm sure it's coming in in in the next few years. But it has not been really I think announce that clearly about what's what's coming next. But these are the the IPS the internal the first party IPS that will move the need.
Yeah. Animal Crossing big mainline Pokémon game would would do should do some good things. They do have these games, but they don't seem to be working on them. And it's that's the thing that surprises me. The first the year of the first launch, you know, Donkey Kong's a great IP, but it's not a strong selling game yet.
I They want it to be Mario Kart. Okay. You don't get bigger than Mario Kart,
but then it's Highwall Warriors and it's
Yeah.
Kirby and it's Metroid and it's like
Yeah.
In certain markets those games do well, but like globally not so much. Um
Yeah. I mean there is the wave of early

adopter that have been fan of Nintendo and that they've been playing on switch one that just naturally converted to the switch two but after that yes how do you convert the mass market to move from switch one to switch two that that's a challenge yeah and the other the other dark road that is coming maybe we can talk later is the increase of the hardware there are rumors of the switch to increasing in price because of the cost of the the memory and things like that like almost all all gaming hardware in the in the coming months so that that will not help neither. Yeah, that's their big that's their Well, that's been the other big story, isn't it? It's been those hardware price increases. Um, Xbox has been far more willing to pass on the cost, but everyone's done it.
Nintendo Switch 2 was already priced at a certain level. It's amazing because when we when Switch 2 launched, a lot of the talk was it's quite a pricey machine. And nowadays, I think people are like, well, yeah, but comparatively, it's not that bad. There was no discounting done over Black Friday, which, you know, understandable in his first year really.
Interestingly, there was a discount on the PlayStation 5 Pro. Yes,
it dropped by like $100 or something. I

felt that it was an interesting sign. Well, while Yeah, I think I don't know on the pro it became almost. Wow. Maybe the pro is a bargain though.
That's what I mind, you know.
Well, yeah, they were there was aggressive price this game from PlayStation Black Friday. I think they want to sell lots of consoles. They they they've still got a lot of people to upgrade. That's what they talk about all the time, you know. Yeah. They've still got a lot of PS4 players and they don't want that anymore.
Mhm. But um Xbox is less concerned about that. I mean, we could tell by the fact that they've not really flooded the market was there not there's not that much stock really. They've been quite conservative in their distribution and their pricing as well. It just shows their switching strategy, you know. They It's not that they don't care about hardware, but they don't care as much as they used to. So, it's um
yeah, I I I remember a time, I don't know, a few years ago where like you could grab a Xbox One for $150 or something. It's like the the entry barrier to own a console was super low, but now it's been raised so much again. It makes it more challenging. But I I I think it's box and Microsoft in general

when it comes to gaming. They really have a multiplatform approach and and yeah, it's a different story than it was a few years ago.
There's a couple of other stories I want to make sure that we get to before we wrap up, but um Claire Obscure uh that that became sort of the poster child of how to do games in the modern era. It won nine awards at the game awards, sold millions and millions of copies. The team size is relatively small. Internally, it's 33 people. There's a few contractors and outsource agencies as well, but it just kept selling. It just kept growing. Uh the critical reaction. I think it just maybe opened the eyes to a few people that um
yeah, I I think it became almost like a cultural phenomenon. And you know, I I I'm I'm French speaking. I come from Belgium. I live in France. So, I'm president of the of France. talking about the game, congratulating the the team. I think it's it's a cultural event and and France being also kind of a popular country outside of France, I I think it it resonated very well. Um

yeah, and I think they they announced the budget. It was what, less than $20 million budget.
Yeah, I'm I'm slightly skeptical about that, but yes, certainly low is what they're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, and and and as usual, when you have a game winning the the game of the year award, you have a second effect and you will see the sales picking up again in December and probably early early next year. Yes.
Yeah. Well, we had some data from that already out there, but yeah, it's it seems positive. I mean, we did I am a little bit sketch, you know, it's easy to look at Clare Obscure and go, "Wow, what we need to do is a small team making something focused and creative. We sort of held either two the year before. This is how we can do it." But the reality is there's still a lot of failure that if you do that, you know, it's not it's it's it's but it does show how smaller independent teams are perhaps in a stronger position than some of the bigger bulkier AAA teams and being able to react and do something cool and different and be a bit riskier um that could resonate more um take

those risks that can win over lots of gamers. I think what was interesting is that you have clear obscure which is really much French culture then you had ghost of tsushima and y which is really Japanese culture you know very a lot of authenticity put into these games even if it's not done by a Japanese team for bus of tsushima then you have a wukong which is also very much culturally relevant for China and feels like if you kind of nail this this cultural flavor of a specific country you kind of your authenticity convince a lot of players across the world just be you are being so authentic and so focused on being to this culture. It's a big year for the for us in the UK next year because next year there are I mean don't but here's the thing like Grand Theft Auto is a British you know it's a British game it's a Scottish game um but it's set in America Lego Batman it's a British game but it's you know Batman and it's also
for me I'm most excit

set in Japan like British made game but um the one I'm most excited for is Fable and I'm there's an ele I full caveat my brother works for Playground Games is looking on Fable.
Okay. Run.
But that is such a British game. That's always been the humor, the cast of it, the flavor of it, the look of it. So distinctly British. And I do wonder if maybe
from a from my point of view, I always I'm looking forward to that one then.
Yeah. And and and I think the next Harry Potter will also break everything probably.
Yes.
Like a Hogwarts, you know, that is just if they do it right, uh this probably double down on on on that IP in the future.
Yeah. Oh goodness me. Hogwarts Legacy is um still in that. It's one of those people. We don't talk about it very much. You talk about Grand Theft Auto. Isn't it amazing? GTA still in the top five. Hogwarts Legacy is still in the top five. It's still in the top. It's still in the top. Just keeps doing going and going and going and going.
It's the game you have in your library. You know, you can find it at at an acceptable price also right now. Cheaper one. So, why not? I think it was

actually also offered on the Epic Game Store last week.
Yes, it was. Yeah. Yeah.
So, everybody has to play it at some point. You know, it's it makes sense. Yeah.
You look at Hogwarts, you look at even the Lego games. We forget that in 2020, the year year after. What was the year that Lego, Star Wars, the Skywalker Saga came out, that was the number two, number three game of the year, that year?
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
So, you know, Warner Brothers, I know they've had a lot of failure with Suicide Squad and Multiveres and stuff, but they've had some real big hits as well. So, um absolutely.
I think this company also is valid for the movies. They are judged by their failures and not much by their successes, but they've had a few good successes, too.
Yeah.
Well, let's let's talk about the other because it's a big business story of the year. Uh EA being bought by a consortium of investors led by Saudi Arabia's public investment fund and a deal worth 55 billion.
It basically leaves Take 2 and Roblox is the main public games companies in the US right now. Um it I guess it makes it might actually make getting hold of data a little bit harder now than they're not

public. Yeah, that's obviously been one of the the probably the biggest industry story of the year and it's probably the worst one worth ending on.
Yeah, I come from EA, so I also have a lot of contact over there and and we we will see what happens. I think technically the the deal is not signed yet.
No, it's Yeah, expected to happen. Um yeah, I mean I wrote a piece about that. I I felt like Activision being bought by Microsoft, Ubisoft being partnering more with with with Tencent and now E8. It's like there's no what about the publisher wars, you know, the the the old old days where the big ones were fighting. They were it was about who was the biggest trailer, the biggest marketing campaign and and things like that. Feels like 2K is a bit a bit on its own at this point. And uh yeah, different era, a new era, a new a new era of publishing also most probably when you see the the games as a platform emerging.
Well, yeah, you think some of the biggest games of this year from like Kepler and Nexon and all they are just

Roblox experience, you know, grow a garden, uh steal your brain wrote in terms of concurrent players. These are the biggest of the year when you think about it. So it's it's really time time are changing for sure.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, actually, I actually spoke to Austral um um about the fact that they were the last um well, they're not the last, but they are one of the particularly in America.
They're one of the final um companies still going on. I can't find a quote. That's going to be quite annoying. Basically, I remember he was saying he doesn't really know um uh if it's a good thing or a bad thing
for them or not. Really, the EA acquisition.
Yeah. because he thinks there might be some short-term benefits, but long-term does it, you know, he likes competition really. He thinks it leads to a better, more successful industry. So, um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the success of Battlefield 6 this year will push Call of Duty to be

better. You know, if there is no Battlefield, there is no need to be better from Call of Duty. So, I I think that that's an example of LC competition and ultimately it benefits to all all the players.
Yeah, that's it. It's Yeah, it's the quote. Sorry, I found it. Sorry that
it's hard it's hard to know. He admitted no longer having a big direct competitor competitor that's also a public company may give us a bit of room from a competitive point of view. On the other hand, we never take anything for granted. Arrogance is the enemy of continued success. We are always looking over our shoulders. We are always scared. So I'm not sure that's really a difference that that makes a difference. We wish our competitors well. A good business is well served by having powerful players, not just one powerful player. So it's possible that the competitor landscape shifts a bit. It's also possible nothing changes at all. Either way, we will do our jobs.
I see. I mean, there there is the possibility that the the the market will be so segmented between smaller entities that it's going to be Yeah. You like to have the the team red the red against

the blues. You know, you like this kind of fight. It's easy to understand doing it so much. It's just difficult to to get a read. It's why I think what I'm doing, what you do, and and what all of us have been doing this year has become so much more important is that actually, you're right, there was a time that video games was quite simple, usually quite easy. You kind of knew who our audience were. They were kids and they were gamers and then you had sort of console games and they were all fighting each other and PC games are sort of off in that corner. But now you've got such a spread of different audiences all around the world, all wanting different things, all interested in different things. You got different companies. You've got AAA games like Assassin's Creed Shadows that did fine and Monster Hunter Wilds that did very well and and and Kingdom Come Difference 2, which of course was AAA that did very very well. Um, and then you've also got Battlefield 6 did very very well. Then you've got these games that aren't I wouldn't even call them double A because a lot of money was spent on them like Arc Raiders that are coming out of nowhere and doing really well. Then you got Play Obscure,

which is made by a small team. It looks amazing and did really really well. Then you got these indie games that are doing really well and there's a lot of failure in every one of those segments. There's a lot of challenge, a lot of difficulty, a big discoverability crisis, but actually there is no one way to succeed in the video game industry really. Um there is a lot of different ways. There's a lot of different um paths that you can follow. What you what you know, you may think don't do that and then it does work and then there's times where you go do do that and it doesn't work and um
Mhm. That makes it sound the games industry sound almost like a gambling like a lottery in a way where you're just you just sort of but it it it if anything it just shows the industry is complicated now
and it is it is part of them part of the nature of it I guess
and when when when you I like to give that example now of audio consumer video game you can have a kid that would be playing um steal a brain rot on Roblox on his mobile phone and then he might switches play steel brain rot on Fortnite on on a PC. It's still the same experience, but it's it's like within a

game on different platform. No, within two different games. Technically, Fortnite Robux have to
on different platform. How do or do you track these players or the what what is a game? What is what is a platform? Is it algo platform? Is it a software platform? And I think that makes the readability of the industry more challenging than before.
Yeah. And you say that and it's it's completely right. And I was just in the playground dropping my kids off and one of them has a Sonic the Hedgehog backpack. One of them's got Princess Peach hanging off their uh their bag, right? One of them's wearing a um a Mario hat. And I'm like, well, but they're still playing those games as well. It's like it's a
I know this is review of 2025 and I will wrap this up with this, but what do you think we should learn from this year when it comes to to moving forwards into 2026 and beyond? That's that that's a good question. I don't have that in my notes. I I would say one thing I would certainly watch um

in the future is everything AI related to video games. There's been a lot of noise about AI so far. I don't know if you saw the interview of the the boss of Larian recently. He mentioned AI and then it became it blown.
I know. So I think we
there's no room for nuance in that conversation if they're like it's either all bad or it's all great.
Exactly. We have to extremely cautious about how we appro approach the wording the use of AI and as I said before the consequence of AI engineering into the price of hardware. This this will everything is linked when when you think about it. So AI for helping developers, but is it detrimental to the demand and and are the players upset about it? Yes or no? I mean, usually it's always the same players that are the most vocal, but ultimately the people silent, they are fine with that. So we have to find the right uh

and and and you know, it's interesting. I was at um the game awards and I spoke to a fellow journalist and they were doing they're doing so much stuff
and I thought to myself and I was sitting there and I do a lot right and I and I work myself really hard and I'm like
how are they doing that? What am I missing? And I asked them and they told me they used AI for the questions they ask people.
It takes me hours to prepare for interviews. And I thought to myself, am I doing this wrong? Right. And and I and I just thought about it for a moment. I even tried it. I didn't do it for just I already had an interview prepared with someone and I thought well let I wonder if the AI will come up with better questions. It didn't. It came up with good questions but not the ones that I'd come up with while I'd done ages of reading through other interviews and preparing.
And I was a bit like
what would it allow me to do if I could use if I use AI instead? Well, allow me to do a slightly worse job but probably good enough.
But people don't want more. That's my experience right now. People don't want more. They want better. And so if AI is

allowing you to do something better, I think that's interesting. If AI is just allowing you to do more stuff, [laughter]
I don't know. I don't know if we need more stuff.
I agree. I agree. In some ways, it's it's like the cars, you know, you can run very fast by feet or you can use a car and if you drive well, you will go faster. But but uh if you don't drive well, you won't. And and uh so it's all about how you use it. they these should be enablers for people that are competent in using them most of anything else. Um but yeah, so that that's what one big thing I would say and and then just as we said that the the landscape of the industry keeps evolving super super fast. I I feel like there's been an acceleration this year. Um, also I I feel like there are more and more um alpha players um Gen Z and alpha players on the market and you start to see how they move the needle in terms of what what game are popular compared to what

games were years ago and you will have to accept that they have a different way of consuming video games. You know, it's not right or wrong. It's just different. And as older gamers, we just have to accept that this is what their taste and this is how they consume video games. So that's also I I felt this year was we with all the record-breaking things happening in Roblox. I really felt like wow this is really the year where it's a tipping point where it's going to be more about that kind of experience uh in in in the future that we cannot ignore this audience.
Well indeed I mean I think I read I did read the line in your um um u release where it says the market's momentum increasingly comes from depth rather than volume. And um and I think that's um I think that's that is what we're seeing. And you know the depth of stuff on Roblox, the depth of um individual games, but also um it's longer term, you know, it's it's the depth of those franchises and and

all those sort of things. And and it's it's yeah, and I and I think that's been the way for a little while, but we're seeing it. We very much saw it this year. And and we see the convergence in how players consume video games between console and mobile also because kind of Roblox the the pattern of the Roblox player is mostly mobile gaming pattern but then it comes they start playing on console and they have the same pattern they short short sessions they have a lot of different experience that they play. So you will start to see that more and more and and then and I would feel like yeah ultimately the what we have experienced on the mobile business on the mobile gaming business might come and and and be more present also on the console and PC.
Well this is as much as the fun as the crystal ball is uh we will obviously be here next year to to report on it and and do it all. Emanuel thank you so much for your insight and your data about where the industry is going. really really interesting. It's been a

fascinating year. It really has. And um
it's been fun to report on even if it hasn't always been positive. Um so thank you for your time. Thank you for joining us.
No worries. My pleasure.
That's it for today's episode of the game business show. As I say, this is part of a double bill. If you want to see our interview in Next Playground, do check that video out. You may have already watched it depending which order you're watching this in. Um we will be back next week with the game business micro. We also have a special clip show, but really this was our final big episode of the year. So have a lovely holiday for for those of you gifting one and uh we will see you in 2026.