NSPCC’s Kevin Antao And Andy Sallnow On How To Prevent Child Abuse In Games

[Music] hello world and welcome to the pg. biz podcast I'm your host peggyanne saltz and Brighton bow my co-host well he isn't with us today but we do have something from his amazing Scottish games week it's a talk that was very very important very popular very p and also gives us an opportunity to shine a light on a topic we don't discuss enough here so we do recognize the positive and enriching contribution that games can make to the lives of players and we've had shows about that in the past but the reality is the playing experience is quite different for children children are silently At Risk online and in games places where they suffer from intimidation bullying the pressures of SE texting we're going

to talk about that today and an upcoming event in the gaming industry that you can get behind I can get behind everyone can get behind really to show courage and do their part I'm really really truly proud and privileged to welcome two champions from the nspcc that's the organization leading the Fight Against Child Abuse in the UK and Chanel Islands I'd like to welcome Kevin anow he is gaming and digital disruption consultant at the nspcc and Annie solo head of product development and Innovation and I have to say Kevin wild wild title that must be something when you hand out that card yeah it really is but thank you Peggy for the welcome really great to be here and great to be talking about such a an important subject absolutely digital disruption consultant I have to ask you what that what that actually entails yeah so um I've actually got a a

27 year uh career background in Tech uh and lots of digital disruptions I work across uh several Charities including the nspcc uh and really um there are so many digital opportunities uh for Charities uh really in terms of engaging their audiences and fundraising you know in the in the web 3 worlds artificial intelligence uh and so many things so you know my my job is to sometimes translate some of that but bring some of that to life to to get more social impact so it is a wacky title uh but these are wacky times and this is uh quite a time for you as well Andy because your organization you were on a speaking tour you were just at Scottish games week as I said how did that go by the way it was fantastic and I think being able to see so many people within the sector and talk to them about how we just as you said the benefits of of gaming for children young people are huge and the risks are there too and we

want to make sure that we work with the industry to make sure those risks are mitigated and actually we've had a really receptive group everywhere we've gone to when we talk about what the nbcc's aims are they're the same as the industries in terms of keeping children safe I was really impressed by the work that you have been doing and that you've been doing it for a while you know you believe the best way of preventing child abuse is making sure it never happens in the first place I mean couldn't agree with you more so why why however is the nspcc in games particularly it's a really good question we've been around for 139 years so we've been trying to keep children safe in in all that long long history in that history the way that we've been able to keep children safe has changed over the years and Kevin mentioned you know we're we're living in a crazy time but there are various risks that are presented by the networked element of of gaming that that means that we've got to be more involved and actually ultimately we we love gaming we we use gaming resources within

our childline Assets in terms of supporting children to like gain the right information around uh child abuse neglect but we also want to try and make sure that we're supporting the industry and so the ultimately the answer is why we're in gamings because children are so 91% of 3 to 15 year olds play computer games actually high percentage of them have their first online experience within a game so this is very different than say the late 90s when I started playing computer games there's no networked element and so that networked element adds adds a an element of risk to the experience that whether you're game developer publisher a parent no one want a child no one wants that risk to be there but we want to make sure that we're working with working with the industry working with parents working with young people to help and actually we've got three impact goals which are as just as you mentioned we want to make sure that that we we prevent child abuse and actually we believe that child abuse is pre preventable and our impact goals are number one is everyone plays their part in preventing child abuse number

two is every child is safe online number three is every child feels safe listened to and supported and understanding that we can make the experience of of playing video games better and safer for the for the player based on their feedback to us and you did bring up a point maybe you can weigh in on this as well Kevin you know because online harm it has been there for as long as there's online really but it's increasing in scale and maybe there's an element of you know what has changed is because we're multiplayer because it's so social it's no longer a problem of of being addictive it's being abusive I mean how are children experiencing games differently that's a really good question um and I think going back to Andy's answer about the network element um and the connected element here um you know what what we have or what we experience from the nspcc we see on the one hand the games and the game titles and the interactions that children are

having on those titles we see them moving into um particular Network spaces which um you know often don't necessarily have the guard rails so for for you know live chat type interactions on various servers and then you know they're sort of live streaming that activity in a third place and and these are all on different platforms across different areas often sort of integrated when it goes is wrong is the moment when the nspc hears about it and often that's too late so Andy mentioned one of our key Services childline which has been there for you know decades um trying to support children and unfortunately you know in in the UK today you know uh every 45 seconds the child will be contacting Child Life uh for for some reason it's it's that much unfortunately and you know this this isn't going away this is unfortunately you know increasing so you know at the nspc when

things go wrong we're kind of picking up the tab we we're having to to deal with that including in kind of gaming spaces and really we want to get at the front end of that chain um so you know a principle of safety by Design or amplifying the voice of uh young people into the kind of gaming ecosystems that's our long-term Vision our long-term aims um in and around here just as a a quick stat you know nearly a fifth of which is quite High of the contacts from young people that come into childline actually come in through our gaming Pages uh so that is um it's quite a it's quite a highly relevant area for us to be much more present and to have the signposts available in the pathways to help inside of gaming as well what does that mean inside the gaming pages is there a place inside certain games where they can contact you no there isn't and that's the vision um I think that's really we need to but

that but that's quite a hard challenge because if we think about virtual worlds for example and the multiple successful Virtual Worlds that we have out there um we've got to make sure that the same architecture and the same level of signposts and that the developers as they're kind of creating the games uh are really aware of like you know and unfortunately repositories for you know safeguarding and modules and information and education out there it's it's not prevalent as it needs to be and we don't actually know what good signposting practice means um so there's a lot of work to do and then to apply it across huge gaming ecosystems this is a multi-year play and we're not going away this is not going to happen overnight but this is our Our Moment to really call out and try and Foster that Community to come together to help build out that future safer architecture and you mentioned that and you call it that that is sort of the the the working title here you know safer by Design just

at a high level because we will Deep dive into that because it requires the gaming industry to get behind it but what does that mean at a high level what does that look like safe by Design in practice I mean a lot of there's a lot of good practice um going on in The Gaming Arena lots of features uh around I don't know moderation or parental controls or chat features or um you know other other elements that have been built into G nowadays so that young people don't experience harm inside of game but there's probably another level that we need to go to um it can actually be by the way that there isn't actually something toxic happening inside of uh the game itself but it's um the player themselves are experiencing you know toxic situations I mean I think it's been well documented around the well-being challenges that the the sector has so you know imagine a player that that really needs help um you know

uh and just doesn't know like around services like childline or organizations like the nspcc or things like that how can we bring that and be more aware about that in game as you're almost like you know first starting up or logging into game or you know where the pathways are um and then when we we look at the kind of calls and contacts we get you know I don't know um age verification or age appropriation right so what you know what is the situation where Crum somebody someone that I'm talking to isn't the age that they said that they were or parents who have called us and had concerns about that uh you know it's making sure that those those help those guides those controls and things are really prominent um so I think very practically about what safety by Design means and how we need to kind of almost code it in to uh game design Andy you look at product development Innovation

give me an idea a little bit deeper into what the blueprint for this looks like and and do we have any best practice we can point to yet or is this totally new territory yeah another very good question PE in really we are as Kevin was saying we've been around for 139 years we we're in the Long Haul we want to make sure that we're we're handling this next phase carefully and and making the Right Moves something we need to mention is the Online safety turned into the Online safety Bill a last month that have been five years of work that went into it and that that is going to be really impactful for for the industry so every online space will be impacted by that in terms of making sure that that space is accountable and is safe for children but there's this is the start of the process there's consultation that's going to be beginning next year to under and actually that will produce a code of conduct and so it's it it isn't like we'll make a change overnight that radically improves things from children's perspective so the stage that we're at is is similar in terms of us

understanding from the for both children because as Kevin said we understand from children we hear from children what the problems are with with the online online space and and gaming as a part of it and we also want to make sure that we're connecting with the industry in a way that we're a supportive partner in helping these changes not we aren't offc come we want to be a sport both in the child's life to make sure that where there are elements of of the online world that are unsafe they're able to let us know we were able to help them through that from the parents perspective understanding that we're giving them best practice tips on how to how to identify and support children who may be at risk of anything so it could be they they have a slight a compulsive attitude towards the game playing too much it could be that they're they're in online spaces that the parent isn't able to control and be able to support that that side of it and then within the industry making sure that the industry is aware of the elements of best practice that Kevin suggested some of in terms of AG verification the the most upto-date tools that we have at our disposal to make sure that we can you know network access to that and that

people are able to see that the next step for us is a a week of Festival that we're really excited about which is going to be bringing together all the different elements of of the the safer Gaming Community if you like which is happening next year so we're we're launching it be happening from the 5th to 11th of February and we've got lots of activities happening in there but it's basically going to be a celebration of gaming on the one hand bringing the best of gaming how it connects us how it unifies us and gives us a sense of of accomplishment all things that we know that we get from from gaming ourselves and also then looking at some of the negatives and understanding how we can we can overcome them together I'm glad you bring that up like that because you know it is a balance we are talking about harm but you also hear that games are you know the anchor for children who are depressed need a form of Escape need some balance in in their lives so it's important to address the concerns but keep the benefits 100% Peggy um so so we have for

example um we hear a lot from autistic children uh around um social communication development skills in general and the importance of gaming and gaming ecosystems as the spaces that are giv them confidence to uh in their lives and we at the NPC really want to celebrate those kind of examples um we really need to to highlight that but I think going back to Andy's point right there are there are some challenges I mean we have just released some fairly groundbreaking research around the Mets and um some of the harms that exist in in today's world if I think about next year and Vision Pro glasses and you know the the what we're going to need it goes back to that infrastructure point that there are some there's some real opportunities to innovate and build out this the safeguards and the guard rails before you know as those um those

Technologies become um more prevalent um with within the within the gaming space as well so I will link to that research for sure so that people can explore that but you mention it um it is fairly new what is for example a takeaway or a finding that yeah that was different that blew your mind that you weren't expecting the thing that blows my mind is um how easy it is to to set up a profile in those Virtual Worlds unfortunately you know to to to cause harm without any checks and balances um and I I you know obviously have to be very careful with the uh the nature of the the topic material here but it's it's and these are quite well um I'm not talking about like very sort of small ecosystems here I'm talking about you know probably some of the most commonly used sort of platforms at entry

level and then apps that you can kind of go and download um there really are no checks and balances in in that world uh unfortunately you can be anybody anything you can pretend to be a 10 yearold 12y old and of course you are not you're a predator yeah and that's where the problem starts but but let's also about your point about balance okay I mean skins and avatars are an amazing creative way for children to express themselves to to you know going back to that sort of Social and development skills we we have to find a way of celebrating that but also find the balance around using those Vehicles as a you know for for predatory or other you know um malicious intent and and we'd like to come together with the community to to try and work that out together because uh you know I think we could we could honestly say as well we don't have all the answers here but we have we know what good practice looks like after 100 39 years of experience can I ask a bit

of a Layman's question here perhaps because I look at it from a different perspective I look at you know developments in the industry the business of apps the business of games and um you know we have a privacy first landscape which many say that's fantastic and maybe some of that protection there is also making it very difficult to verify facts about people making them sort of really admit you know details about themselves because it seems to me as if there might be a bit of a greater tug of war now than there was maybe before it's interesting when we see events that have occurred around the issue of privacy particularly around children's data um I know like for example the you know the astronomical finds that we saw um for fortnite and uh recently in the states following the the kind of copper

rulings uh and how um is children's data being used um particularly from the the kind of like you say the monetization model and the and the business model uh but similarly you know we have to also take quite a practical approach it isn't mean it doesn't mean that you know the hand out of these finds means that people are going to abandon these spaces you know we we we have to find some way of balance in the solution I actually think that um you can build really positive spaces uh in these Virtual Worlds um and actually so for example our game safe Festival you know we're really exploring the potential of AI uh and working with moderation companies um and the other things to really um more in a more sophisticated nature spot those kind of toxic behaviors and things like that and then one of the one of the gold pieces

for me is the community um and The Gaming Community who are fantastic uh spotting things and and you know the self-regulation element that goes on in the community and it's like um accentuating that so you know if we can know the design I don't know because I got a tech background people process platforms you know if we can foster this community the people part really activate it okay if we can get the processes and the pathways right inside of game design and then you know make sure that the platform holders understand this space and really clear about obligations and what they've got to do and bring that all together this this could be a fantastic agenda for us for the next good few years of work but but come and jooy us on this well a huge milestone and I have to say huge congratulations is your first ever safe games Festival coming up you talked about it before Andy when we were discussing what's coming and what's important here give me anide idea just at a high level you know without giving

it all away because it will be unveiled properly soon but there's there's activations there's there's speakers there's elements of fun it sounds really cool actually thank you yeah and it's it's something that we're excited about because it's the first time we've ever done this and other Charities have had their game games festivals mainly centering around live streaming activity we've got a different element because of who we are got an act and a and a playside the plays side celebrates all the elements of gaming that we've spoken about the positives the chance for families to be connected across across games for individuals to be connected across demographics and Global boundaries to be able to bring bring together in a really positive way so we have lots of live streaming and then activity Along on those sides the ACT side is where we're we're really differentiated as a as an organization I think the game safe Festival is going to be really positive because of this we we're going to be organizing workshops for parents professionals working in working with children for and also a number of events for the

industry at large to be able to come together on the theme of of safer gaming to talk about how we can make sure that we can put everything out there in in terms of the information that we have the needs and the the information that the industry can throw back and actually we can start crafting something together so lots of things there's also going to be an orts tournament that I I'm not sure how much I can reveal at this stage but it's going to be going to be launched imly as well so lots of things to take part in and yeah so keep keep an eye out and and we'd love to put a link to where you able to find more information out on the show nice Peggy absolutely and I was really pleased to see the part about Esports because of course that's where involvement activity interest is off the charts that's where children are going to be interested that's what the community is interested about as well and it brings them together to your point so that was a brilliant idea we're going to be doing it at a state-of-the-art Esports venue um in in the UK um it's it's obviously virtual there'll be qualifying parts for the tournament and then uh a grand final

um state-of-the-art venue but proceeding the Grand Final over the weekend we have a an industry specific Esports conference focusing in on the topic of safeguarding uh so it's something to really look around you know to look out for in terms of Industry professionals it follows up from uh uh you know we work very closely and we can say this with the with the British Esports Federation uh and you know they this year we spoke at their education Summit uh around this topic and there was definitely uh an audience appetite to explore it in more detail you know esport we we have a traditional sport we have a child protection in uh sport unit we can bring a lot of those lessons into Esports because you know Esports doesn't have the The Regulators and the safeguards um that let's say like you know football the Football Association or other organizations like that so there's a real great moment to craft the

you know what is what do it look like and Esports is just wild in terms of popularity and so infectious uh I know I was s uh in the crowd at Apex Legends earlier on this year and just you just I just get carried away whenever I'm there so um it's really excit and this this is really exciting it's got some amazing um it's got some amazing people coming into this activation speaking of activations I'm just curious you know something happens an idea is strong whose time has come this is certainly that case you know we're talking about it but we're seeing more happening and um you want to be able to do this in a conscious way you want to say I want to have these games because these are going to be fun and safe and you started this a while back you started something called the games bundle tell me a little bit about that maybe how Publishers get involved the evolution of that because that's something that stays and has an impact

longer than the event back in 1987 so this was the the last you saw this coming yeah uh which is quite good so 36 years ago uh we released a uh so games bundles um lots of Charities release um games bundles we we put a we put a stack of games together um and we we sell it on and the proceeds from that bundle go to the Chari work and similarly for us you know funding child line in the first instance so that some we have a service that is there for when things go wrong in gaming and people can turn to it um that's really really vital for us for a 365 days a year seven you know seven days a week service right um it needs to be there so um but yeah the bundle was really exciting it was a suite of 12 games that was available at the time over you know the amstrad commodor 64 and z x Spectrum uh if your listeners remember those

things we're looking to launch another one of those in 2024 um to commemorate that moment our our original partnership was with um you know with Activision at the time it was an Activision Blizzard um back in '87 so yeah we have been talking to a number of Publishers around uh what we'll do for the for the second launch there's something that every stakeholder can do here I'd love to hear from both of you you know if you support this and our audience I know does you know what are the various ways to get involved for different people in the ecosystem and for Activision Blizzard it's obvious you know just add something to the games bundle and support you there but then there are Indie Publishers there are people like me just very very passionate players um it is as you said yourself a community what can we all be doing there's some classic answers I could give to this but uh I've got a I've got a really specific thing right um and it's calling out a little bit to the Gen Zed community so one of

our one of our principles on our child safety online work at the nspcc is around amplifying the voice of young people um and actually you know what young people know what the solutions that they need particularly for like I don't know reporting capabilities inside of games or um other solutions to to make them safe and it's been a really humbling experience over the last 6 to 12 months listening to young people about what they want to see in games um and what I found is that the Gen EDS and you know we're talking what 11 to 26 year olds here okay if I think about those that have just left school and are kind of entering into the workplace and seeing things they are great people to talk to represent uh and talk about the experiences that the 11 to 18 year olds are going through at the minute uh and and amplifying that voice so so it's a very specific thing but I think that's what this F is trying to do it's trying to get those voices and hear them and I

think it's good for the industry as well in terms of the products that they produce in gaming to make sure that these features are in so that's what we're trying to do if I were to say one thing that that everyone can do so all the different audiences that have a stake in in making gaming safer the one thing they can do is engage with the festival we've got so many things happening that are going to be interesting from the perspective that Kevin mentioned bringing we would be bringing forward the voices of young people to to suggest to all of us this is these this is where we need to act this is what we need to do and so that is important for parents of children it's important for anyone working within the gaming industry to listen to this I think that's the the purpose that we we've got here and the opportunity I think we've got in terms of the moment in time that you mentioned as well Peggy is to bring forward that voice in a really powerful way in a way that prompts us to see the non-obvious element that that actually adults might not be so kind of fixated on and actually being able to make sure that we've got a solution to all the issues that young people are are presenting us

with in terms of the experience they're having the things that need to be improved from their perspective yeah that's what I think we're excited about bringing forward amplifying the voices of young people to make sure that we as adults can make sure that we can do what we can to play our part in making gaming safer very very exciting idea driving engagement to drive change and you are encouraging people to engage around this so I wasn't aware of this as much as I am now and very much appreciate it and it's great that you reached out but then I have to sort of like pull back and say to myself this can be a blueprint for other countries other other efforts other events even how is this resonating and at a at a at a greater scale I wouldn't say a global scale because we can't get together about anything globally but it's always helpful and always good to see progress we do actually see this as a global activation even though we are obviously a a national charity and actually we we we

have to make sure it's globally activated and the nspc has a number of um as kind of quite close Partnerships with tri protection agencies across the globe and actually from a from a charity and a fundraising perspective for example we've got a lot of ideas around um you know how do we do this together with other countries so for example could we have an orts tournament where we are playing against another charity let's say uh over the pond or across the world uh and and sort of bring together in a sort of a combined sort of charity event we're very open to to those kind of ideas because ultimately um from a mission perspective you know this is about the mission of safer gaming but I agree the the world that children are entering into online is global and so understand that even though our our focus is the UK and Chanel Islands we need to make sure that the internet at Large and gaming at large is safe for children that does

that crosses demographic bar boundaries so as as Kevin said we've got to work with other agencies and partners but also sharing best practice because the things that work within the UK and Channel Islands are going to be the things that work globally as well so we do find that lots of organizations that are looking for assets on and information on safey gaming find and and search and use our our information our guide so being able to make sure that's freely available and that we're able to to give access as as broadly as possible at the same time as making sure that we're off offering the right services for children and young people within their own their own uh place and place of demographic rather than just it being UK based so I think we've got to balance those two things the information that we've got to give is global but actually access to Services we got to make sure that it children get them in the place that is appropriate to them so curious about the partners and about like your wish list of partners because things happen when the right companies the right forces are are behind them there are these pockets of activity there are

these Major Brands as well um what would it have to look like to take your effort to the next level who would have to join would it have to be you know the usual suspects the major companies Roblox I have no idea I'm asking you yeah that really good question um so first thing I would say is we're blessed with a number of existing partners that we've had for many many years who traditionally may be not part of Gaming but we've we've collaborated with uh and produced things um that are that are quite powerful um so um if I give an example like photoone a few years ago we uh created a really interesting gaming guides for for parents where you can go on the V vote website you can select a particular title and it really gives you some really powerful guidance on parental controls uh things that you can do to set up to make sure that that title is safe for the for for the player let's say if it's your your child or whatever

so we're really that's really good to your point right we think of we actually think of four categories um are around the the stakeholders we think of in the first instance artists so streamers influencers individuals um you know those kind of things that we we really there's a call out to creators right we've got to really find a effective way of working with those influential folks okay the second part is we talk about industrialists so developers Publishers retailers manufacturers that kind of group of people even our existing kind of corporate partners and the large corporates and you're right large house I think we're spoken to everyone now um of because one party isn't going to solve this and the third area are what we call the talkers um so I think organizations like yourselves media communities that kind of thing uh we really need to get the message out uh and use that lineup effectively and then the final point we talk about is Governors so trade associations uh

gaming bodies um offg and government and things like that you know when you add all of that up you probably got a list of about a thousand organizations okay we've had to have like one conversation at least with all of those and be a real conduit to bring those kind of end to end ecosystem sort of solutions together right so the the who is quite complicated but you've got to do all of them you can't just do one it's a lot of voices and I'm really pleased to be one of them doing what I can here at pg. Biz the media giving you this platform now we are all United by something else as well and that's our interest in gaming and we always end our show asking a few questions about your personal favorites so we have two people we have two questions so I'll split them up so I ask you Kevin your favorite game you're currently playing and you Andy your favorite game of all time so the game

I'm currently playing at the moment and I've said this I think to a few people is uh myself and my son have really sort of re um acquainted ourselves with the quest and uh we're playing a lot of virtual reality cricket cricket at the moment which is causing a lot of damage to furniture and other elements in the house but uh it's extraordinary fun and it's an extraordinary way of me reconnecting with my 17-year-old son uh who uh is finds my batting to be a bit of a joke but there we go proving again the point it's also games for good Andy your game of all time I I love so many games growing up but Street for the two turbo Edition that I got in 92 is probably probably the one that I that made the most impact on me but I actually think that the the game that I I'll I'll say is an Esports zift is zift even though it's going to Blends physical activity with with the game that's what has connected me to my my friends throughout covid in a way that I think I'll always be be grateful for

what it's given so and that's what I so I'd say that's probably my favorite game of all time now and has a great story and very active it sort of fits both of you having games that are connecting and active and I think that's a great segue because that's what's happened here we have connected we've talked about a very worthwhile activity and an absolutely awesome Festival coming up so a lot of that in the show notes and uh probably one more time up in the running up to when you announce some of the cool people as well maybe have you back for a very quick preview into that Kevin Andy it was such a pleasure having you thank you both thank you so much thank you pegy this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the

reality of the mobile games market and all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at Pocket Gamer . b/p podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian B glue I'm Peggy and salts and that's a wrap until next

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