Embracing Complexity and Compliance in Modern UA

[Music] great well thank you everyone how many of you were already here for Enric and Joo and Daniel's talked earlier to make this a continuation of that and going a little bit deeper I took a little bit of notes jot down a few notes while they were talking earlier so we have a good panel of I think representation from different sites with Enric and Daniel on the more on the agency services side Andrew Billy more around the game developer and and publishing side and with have a tight I mean well with you a advertising that's certainly a important

part for any game business right and even within our own app any data we see that you a contributes a big part 2 mobile app downloads what we see is four out of ten downloads are coming from UA efforts and this is even bigger when it comes to gaming right so let's start off with this maybe an introduction a quick introduction from each of you what's your role and what your company's role especially as it relates to our topic of discussion around you a maybe start with Billy I'm Billy I'm sorry so basically I'm meeting for publishing team in this wave and then our so for this way we focusing on game publishing currently many focus in Japan and then about the voice where how many in Hong Kong Taiwan as well and then talk about marketing I think I also in charge of

the marketing in anywhere so for all night you'll fly as well so cranny we spend a lot in Japan so we do have a lot of intention in Japan I'm Andrew I'm six raise a couple of years ago and I'm huge I'm the general manager from huge and leading the asia-pacific business operations and marketing so as I see in the presentation we are the mobile game developers and mainly focus on the structure casino but right now we are actually expanding our portfolio to the cash show and even light the publishing business hi my name is Daniel and the founder and CEO of Google charts we specialize in mobile apps marketing initially for the first year or so most of pretty much all of them of our clients gaming customers in mobile games in now 2019 who have 50% non-gaming customers you know the brand's fashion

ecommerce crypto finance lending all kinds even dating apps and banking apps so we help them to not only just acquired you a we also help them to improve the ASO so in other words improving their conversion potential again hi my name is Enrique I'm Similac eighth cup games we will develop games but as in asset we we help as well other developers with their App Store optimization and I mostly I oversee our games ASO publishing and as well as relationship with their parties great thank you well I'm gonna start off with some questions but I certainly want this to be interactive and for the audience to get your values were and you know present some of your questions as well so I'll just frame it start off with kind of some of the from a high level strategy planning kpi's how do you even set those and then some of the may be going a little bit more deeper into what

andrew had already covered into the specific tactics but before we we start off let's get some maybe definition out of the way since we heard a little bit earlier with Enric talking about ASO and then we had some conversations around you a how do you guys you know define or differentiate between you UA and ASO and how do you see those two interplay and relate to each other maybe making sort of anyway goes to me first a so it's working on or purely on how many more organic installs again at the end of the month as far as we understand allocate you a Miss paid user acquisition is I'm paying to acquire more users these correlates to the other one actually my presentation by short K is that it really depends on the app or the game that you're working on is there

an impact between paid or you a an ASL organic definitely but you gotta do your own research and work it out how much does it have an impact as well as based on where you're running and what you're doing it's not the same a campaign on Facebook versus and a campaign with an influencer and I think we like to yell at prey the strategy so he really depends on the game so it's huge we sang a they launched the game in 2015 as the huge casino so we are late comer so that's why we actually need to spend put a lot of effort on the user acquisition because I we are like far you know at the top ten but we never pass three four three three to four years we catch up idea to top ten so I did the user acquisition it actually is like their main things for us and then like yeah so I think that we are still learning so because like the thing changed everyday so Google's ever from

and either a yes the app the Apple iOS like front end and those are algorithm change we cannot stop right so I think like the strategy between my ASO and us actually we have to keep learning and then to try an error and then run over testing to make sure that we are not far behind from the market anything else to them I also agree that so because for you a and ASO as well both for keep changing um so we actually need to learn a lot throughout the operation and and also we also have to judge whether the game is really can drive a lot of organics and then to put how many resources on there so so for some core game that might not be really can turn the way a lot of okayness then then we will bother focus more on user acquisition thank you let's start over on app marketing strategic planning

perspective let's say you're just launching about to launch a new product or game how do you even think about planning what that strategy would be how do you assess the market and are there any tools that you would recommend to someone that is trying to hand this out and build this up you wanna go first sure yeah video published game in Japan so deeply to have our Japanese on local office so they have their local intelligence to help us to judge which type of games is good for Japan market so in the case when we call a really good game for the Japanese market then how do we evaluate the marketing strategies like we have to talk of the local partner because indeed we do you think that no katana is very important because about launched a new game in a new region so we have to make sure that the game is localized and then also the marketing strategy as well so

we have to look as a copy screenshot also as well and also the author do a handle so each region should have some very specific local us channels so we need to grab them directly to make sure that we have the local intelligence to help us to call the game and how do you get that local intelligence for someone I mean like is there some do you just have to find people under on the ground like would be the best way that you know you could advise someone that is maybe trying to go into a different market or territory they're not familiar with so for Japan you can talk with us and then for other region I would say so cabanne is actually a really good tool for us to look at which game using which train out to do the marketing from the beginning and then to meet all of their operation so doing some market research and going to the conference to meet up

with different people so this is a good way to s4 I can talk about either like launching a new game so frankly speaking like in huge we did not launch a lot of new games so like like the first one is actually in 2015 it's like a huge casino and then next years I've been in a casino and recently which is launching and the new one is site traffic for so so but what we learn is between my these three to four years I this is some principle is that not changing it's actually and you need a lot of a capital to grow the game nowadays so like money is like the main driver the main decision makers say whether your game is like getting like it or not but like back to like some of the principle is actually like you have like to be a little bit conservative in the beginning to make sure like the retention the monetization is good enough to sustain the growth so imagine that if your retention is really bad and then your monetization is actually cannot sustain like those of the CPI so literally you do not like go to the step to buy scale is because I you popular your game we shut it down after like the first two months so by using a lot of the two is

actually right now we use a lot of internal to it because I we can scare it we have my internal BI system to log in to light each of the cohort each of the users behavior then we can model their life example like the the slot machine games we can see like how many people they make their hundred spins like five hundred spin and thousand spins and then what is corresponding behavior and then purchasing behavior as well so we can set many users they are the potential Wells or they actually they won't be spending money at all so that actually can help us to lie do difference kind of a modeling and then for the third party like like tools I think everybody that we talk about is actually looking into the to the competitor competitors and then how we can tackle those all right the the the marketing message bye-bye we're doing better than that we are doing better on them we try to avoid them maybe we don't have that kind of a features so that can actually help us to understand those other things and therefore ESO we also have some other too as well so I think right now we actually make sure that each offer idea

category or each kind of like the expertise we have a defense tool to be used nowadays okay what about from the from the agency's perspective with Anakin and Daniel as you're working with clients how do you help them to plan out their their campaigns so we mentioned you a and ASO ASO it's been a really hot keywords for the past couple of years many didn't really realize the importance of it until you know in the past two three years so if you're judging by you a perspective you ways or performance driven it's two in it it's all tracking if you don't if you can't track you can't measure the performance so tracking is hugely important for them is always very hard to track completely for example a be testing the icon screenshot the descriptions you can't really represent the entire audience if you're saying that this screenshot is better than the other the only way you can do it is by making really minor

different change like spot the difference pretty much actually I always say to our clients it's like spot the difference there's only one or two differences in the two images and then you can really test the the actual result that one way to potentially judge and we actually learned that from our partners one being Apple actually so I'd like to also mention some of the tools that we use so we've obviously we work with all the MMP so absolute I just but also with developed our own internal tool and also our own cmp campaign management platform so do you give you an example we work very closely and with your low key word optimization so when you bid what sorts of keywords will be arrangement how do you identify such a keywords there's a set process that we use and I'll give you some example so if you use some tours online maybe if you get directly from the map where you probably get dozen or two keywords that it suggests to you you may be able to

acquire fifty to a hundred more but for some of our best clients they have to some of the products that we've been working for over two to three years pretty much all of them have over 10,000 keywords in the inner data pool we're not saying that will bid for all 10,000 keywords but it's through that exercise we will identify the top keywords and some like andrew is saying the market changes very quickly so you have two forever exploring new potential keywords maybe even go back to the keywords that didn't work a year ago so that is done by a set of process and and a measurement I suppose and to identify the real gem sometimes you unlock great keywords I'll give you another example I think this is really cool did you know so the New York to Financial Times that's right in the year in the US they they actually unlocked a really special keywords the Financial Times in Chinese that actually

in simplified Chinese that actually gave them the cheapest CPI and high ROI didn't know that until you've tested explored and it's a different language targeting different sets audience so again it's it's quite a creative way and there's a lot to test you can be quite creative as well yeah thank you in terms of tools have any sensor tower a so why's there are a lot of tools available or map follow-up tweak mobile action its I know you know there as you probably guys know there are many tools available in the market it's not which ones it uses how you use them unfortunately I think I mean I think you guys will make sure that a similar opinion is that sometimes we draw in data it's or more about how much they did they have it's how do I use the data that I do have and which one do I make the most out of it because I could just keep you know praising and telling you

guys about many tools available in the market but it's more about what you cherry-pick as being the right information for you to feed them your and your team I actually draw conclusions with that I'm similar to the example you were giving about the financial terms working out in these specific keywords there are many tools in the market that can tell you which keywords should be ranking for comparators are doing I don't know your home or it can work on these it doesn't really matter what you're using you in reveal unused up in the right data then first place okay now with let's say a strategy in place you want to be able to measure and track the success of that now Angie you mentioned earlier some of the the metrics or what you would look at is not so much on the installs but you know one of them might be the targeted we turn on on expense right how do you how do you even benchmark like what is the right number that I should say okay this is the right goal this is you know I am successful I mean like that that metrics in itself is a number

how do you determine like honey thinking about you know what's the right benchmark metrics to I see so that actually a couple directions that we can determine it or that I define their metrics so a is actually from top management how do we want to or 24 months you have a definitely different I return on investment curve but I think that we have to be realistic as well so for a for social casino games particularly so it's like having kind of an evergreen game so the user will keep saying for like one year two years and I some of the users playing for our games or for five years right now so so that actually we can out for a higher CPI and a lower like growth of the return on investment but you can imagine some of like the hardcore games that we used to have I the publishing in six flavors actually the lab cycle is only like from 6 months to 12 months only right the

users we've gone away so then we will I allow have a different strategy in optimizing their campaign so that actually say one thing it's like from the internal IP and our objectives and another one is actually from a lot of the agency or like they our car managers from Facebook and Google they will have those of a benchmarking like studies to share with us so looking it's not only only the puzzle games only they were kind of like the range of the CPI and then what inside the range of right day seven and day for the hour so if you above the average that means that your game is they doing great but if you're like some of the metrics like that how much I may it's not that good then we have right we try to adjust that so there is only so I think like the retail on aspirin is only one consolidating metrics that we can observe and then to tell in the public but when we optimize or operating our campaign we actually looking at more than 10 different dimensions so to answer your question is actually a is i from your boss from your top management to define their this like make sure like we are fungal with cash

flow second thing is like you learn from the market and then you try to be like better and better and then compete with your competitors and then also depending on the your type of games the lifecycle mention right whether it's an evergreen and or a short term right where you need to get that at spent that quickly dick well you actually in a battle between the CPI and also their LTV so you have to attach all your game which CPI will be in the market of course art even creative a definite yes or how to optimize the screenshot commercially will make some differences and in terms of the CPI and then anyway we have the CPI data then you have to look into your retention and monitoring data to measure your LTV so you should have something in mind how long will your game I mean the player we will stay in the game so you mentioned US law that maybe like

two years play year cycle so if you are like casual game that might be shorter the hacker game then you can imagine that some of the long player we leave the game earlier but enter payer might stay longer so when you look into the LTV as well you have to look into the LTV of the payer like into keeping cohort like videos non-payers of an idea so cool analysis is really important as well more about the cohort analysis I think that's one of the the key area how do you actually determine the the success and value of the users that you bring in what do you mean by the cohort analysis how do you do that so for sixth wave are we the simplest way of coin Isis is like divided by different install date and then of course you can divide by different targeting different region and then look into the CPI of those particular targeting against the revenue generated from that so with

different targeting different install day and then or if I beat you and then you know that the CPI and also that means you can measure whether your game is really good on your different region and then if the game if you are seeing that your LTV of particular regions is really on par with the CPI then you can be much more okay now any mention you know learning from agencies from the agency side do you have any good benchmarks to share that people should kind of measure themselves against a couple of things actually so before data actually when we get the data's from the client side when when they share access to us whether to take Google ads or their Apple search ads or even other channels and also the mobile measuring partners for example and fly address will compile the data will look at the data and actually what usually

this is what we've developed our own internal tool is because to to merge the data into one meaningful data actually takes a lot of time when when you have multiple channels and a lot of the times the data that you get have a discrepancy so for example apps fly we have a discrepancy if you compare with your reports and you get from from Apple you know and also there's l80 you know the limiting our tracking which decreases by number 30% or more maybe so then you have two different sets of data but then which ones right there playing there right obviously and then after I was there a real time so it really depends on what you do with the data and that's actually if we spend a lot of time initially couple two years ago actually working on all sets of data and then we try and try and then we developed our own internal tool which saved us a lot of time so much the clients actually subscribe to that as well so and in terms of benchmarking and useful tips that we share to our

customers most of the time actually when we work with a product or a client we try to learn a lot more than just the initial KPIs we we need to know the stage of their products for example if they're just launching a new product they're kpi's would be a lot different to a product that's been launched in the market for three to five years it's very different initially they would look for growth and also if they've been just raised a huge round of fundraising you know what's gonna happen they need growth right so it really depends on the actual DNA of the customer and also their target audience we I'm saying this from an agency point of view you know it's it's not just the publishing we have to work with customers from different verticals different different industries different products actually some non-gaming customers some localized in a different language you know a Chinese user would be very different to essentially US Japan and Taiwan we will share data that we've been cite

that we've gained from past experience on top of that we share data that we've accumulated for the past usually twelve months in terms of for example use or keywords the keywords that we've tried and we know this type of product for example Cocina products were very good at it we know exactly the keywords that will convert for English speaking one specially so we'll be able to share those two similar clients without divulging sensitive information I guess yeah all right good we heard uh certainly heard a lot about Google and Facebook being you know the go-to source when it comes to user acquisition besides those two are there something else that you would recommend people should look into I mean certainly in terms of advertising platform to choose out there there's more and more coming up these days from our data we're also seeing that you know probably on on Google Play I'm at 45%

publishers I you know spending forty five percent more on different ad platforms so you know not you know are there something that you would suggest to people okay you might also try looking at or testing out in these other tactics as well besides from the you know the Google or Facebook even like I think like last year or 18 months ago lighter we have a right cause it's like the finance tell us I Andrew we have like to pay hundred fifty bills to difference at Network 150 so it means I other in Google and Facebook we are using hundred for the age difference and network so that actually is not healthy honesty so because I we actually spending a lot of I five thousand testing but you're ten thousand tests per day but it has internal data query cells so later on because we are actually getting more mature and then to be we have a certain bargaining power in

the market so we trimmed down to only like 50 to 60 nowadays so what are those are the rest of like there's 60 50 so I think that that we can categorize into it I to to three categories so other than a Facebook in Google so there's actually something similar like the Apple search ass and Twitter and snapchat those of the social network infantry and the second part is actually the the video and network or like those of a DSP as well so these kind of an inventory is actually not guarantee that you have a high or high growers or they even some of them they have a fraud issue so anyway have the trial give an example I for Apple Sascha so from if you're measuring the return on invest investment curve then you're not growing as healthy as I face book and Google but one of the key thing is actually itself the Google's are loaded apples users they have a higher Apple so for certain extent it's actually like when we have a hundred dollar budget we populate spend like ten to fifteen

dollars on those of a testing like the high-risk channels that means I we can bring in good quality of the users but they may not recoup hundred-percent in a certain period of the time so if you are looking to like those other things yes we we have like other than Facebook in Google we have apple mango and economy and then like unity as those are the video and network and live and our key those are the DSP arena we actually use them a lot in particular I think I'm Billy can tell more about the Japan market they have other network they have so I we don't do that honestly we only like how 100% on Google right now yeah we we try to and the return of investment was atrocious it just doesn't I mean for our games we got in contact with a few neighbors that

have third-party and stores you know so far the even even even the Amazon app of the windows that is you know obviously gone the return of investment is non-existent so like yeah the absolutely somebody was like in China who plays not that much musical sympathetic - - a lot ELISA lucky we purely focused on iOS and Google Play targeting users for third party stores it's what we tried we didn't get a return on investments so we it doesn't make any sense for us to invest money on something that doesn't reach 1s any remedy whatsoever or the return but it's really low that's lap give I'm not sure

maybe you guys you can't also I mean if that's for China then you have to the workgroup of like local China publisher ten cents I mean I that and in Korea and you can consider that ones to install so this another channel but then for sister it because our be many focus in english-speaking market and Japan's or we mainly rely on their PO and Google as well are there any other questions from the audience are you anyway anybody using influencers - and then what's the ROI so we deduce an inference marketing from english-speaking market on to Japan as well so I would say is not to look at how big that influence the yes yeah so although there there may be chance that I working with some improvements my turn away Allah are we use a lot of interaction with the of the player but

then you have to make sure that audience is really related to your game so this is the first thing like what we are doing in Japan is like we are publishing strategy game Japan so strategy game indeed is not really that popular in Japan RPG game is more automated in Japan so when we pick the improve answer we need to look into the market and then find the why audience view of user so we cannot use we need the back influencer which have a lot a lot of RPG game so they might not interest in our game so any other day the commercial below and then at the end or the return on investment will be low as well so looking to each information web when I work with the arm Japanese agency regarding the inventor so they send me the list of the invar answer I love each of them and then look at the video they produce so we know that at the other day we know that our wish after improve answer will have the potential for us to

grow this more important never say we actually work with a lot of influences in Southeast Asia we have actually helped clients to sauce and we also partner with different hair well and influenza agencies across the Southeast Asian market some are really big something very specialized so I'm a very niche because we don't just help them to pair them with any product there's a lot of non-gaming clients who uses influences as well and some influences are really picky you know especially with they think themselves as a brand so they are very picky on the product that they match to ieave you're a beauty specialized in care well you wouldn't want to promote again because the audience would be completely different in a way so you know first similar to what Billy was saying they would you know we would work with agencies that they will send us the list and we'll try and go through the care Wells individually to see if they will

match actually most of the times we find see I think here well is it really the industry in here where it's very romantic actually and it's hard to track very hard to track how would you know if the views that they give you are correct are not inflated how would you know I mean there's tools available online but those tools again it's really hard to hunter percent say it's correct and accurate and that's why most of the times when you try to negotiate with the care Wells and influencers one they don't really know how to do it properly they're not that they're not a professional marketer they are some of them are really young and haven't done business before and some of them must do students No and they're supposed a couple of I think couple of weeks ago saying that an influencer with over a million followers

and was selling clothes are thankful for the post and turns out there was only 27 shipments you know and the payment to the late the girl was well over ten thousand dollars so it's obviously the return of investment was terrible so we some of the care Wells that we work with a really good some of them I must say especially in particular in Southeast Asia and Philippine for example but I think we helped Nettie's for for that and one in particular they would go beyond the actual agreed scope they actually made multiple videos that we're only asked to make one can make multiple videos and throw they even threw in the live streams so it wasn't even asked for so they added extra value so we appreciate those and I'm sure the client appreciated those so those would become the top priority Carol's will work again again it's back to the relationship I mentioned earlier it's yeah if you try to track that I mean how can you track relationship oh yeah all right we have one minute laughs and I see another hand up there

so kind of relates to the influence question but what about affiliate marketing like do you see any possibility any kind of good areas for affiliates to actually help with user acquisition in terms of yeah just getting into there's an alternative channel to the paid marketing so as the manager that we have like a small pocket for like the testing budget by like 10 to 15 percent of the targeting over the budget for these kind of a testing so affiliate marketing is actually in these podcasts so why do we not like growing a bigger and bigger it's actually like a lot of like concern from like the quality of the install and also how do we handle the frauds because I those of our marketing is actually in the dark so we don't know where the traffic's coming from even like they tell us so if the some of those they this my idea of the neighbor but we cannot trace like what they the users I coming from all I wishes impression being the refer so that part is actually like not keeping

us like good enough like the high level of the confidence but I keep investing that and then sometimes like the the volume is so small so because I huge game in PD in there cuz you know it's actually a late comer we need a high volume of the install to catch up the market and tend to have a better market share so for those of our video they can only give us like two teachers two free teacher install a day so that actually is not good enough so that's why we're I put the bigger investment on those of a sustainable like reliable and then scalable like inventory lightweight to do so just a follow-up question to that I mean food is such a huge problem across like paid marketing like are you seeing any any changes any ways to be able to solve this fraud issue is a block change solutions like are they coming up you know there's a lot of talk about blockchain alternatives but I haven't seen anything that has really fundamentally solve this problem you want to solve this problem it's reason is a way to make money Foster's are gonna be two steps ahead just making money out of it so or you embrace it and

you know the fact that if you expand your marketing strategy to beyond the gardens of a Google of Facebook and even then you can find a questionable traffic in coming to your campaigns that's the nature of the business but the dissertation is true for you to balance how much do you want your marketing team to impair their time fighting fraud versus how much is worth your time and you know your team resources to actually invest perhaps there are Tanner money and something else but we have a better return on investment okay well thank you I think we're out of time I'm sure the panelists here are still around for a bit so could follow up with further question with them thank you very much [Applause] [Music]