Behind the Wheel of IP Licensing with Hutch's co-CEO, Peter Hansen-Chambers

[Music] hey folks and welcome to the deconstructor of fun podcast I'm your host today Mishi katkov and in this episode I have the pleasure of talking to Peter Hansen who is the co-ceo of Hutch now Peter has over a decade of experience at Hutch he's held some very interesting roles Like Chief Financial Officer as Well's Chief Revenue officer at the company and in this podcast he really shares intriguing stories behind Hutch's popular racing games lab top drives as well as F1 Clash we also talked about some of the games that did not become so big in the end because there's a lot of learnings in whatever doesn't become a hint anyways in this episode we dive deep into Hutch's unique approach to game development we talk about the importance of building strong relationships with car manufacturers for licensing and the evolving strategy that have driven cous growth throughout the

test of time now this episode is perfect for two kind of groups one is of course people interested in game development and the other one who are interested in how to manage long-term Partnerships with Major Brands I don't think you can get any bigger Brands than car brands yeah I don't think you can so a lot of learnings a lot of detailed learnings on on that now before we kick it off and and talk with with Peter I don't have requests I have a suggestion if you're watching this on YouTube please consider subscribing that helps us a lot and we have podcasts coming in every week at least twice a week so you'll be seeing all of our new episodes in your feed and perhaps some will you know be enjoyable for you and secondly if you haven't signed up to our newsletter it's time to do so so the newsletter has been popping for for quite a while uh we got amazing content creators uh a group of game

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episode Peter to the podcast thank you for having me so Peter I'm going to do a quick introduction of you so Peter Hansen Chambers you're a co-ceo newly appointed co-ceo so we'll talk about that you know in a moment uh newly appointed co-coo of Hutch which is a 13-year-old Mobile gaming studio owned by MTG group uh you have around 175 employees and you're headquartered out of London the studio focuses and has always focused on racing and different variations of racing games uh you're known for games like F1 Clash top drives forsa Customs Rebel racing I remember DraftKings but that wasn't maybe the uh the biggest success but it was a very Nic looking game and uh and previously you've you've been uh with um with with Hutch for almost a decade and you're previously Chief finance officer and chief Revenue officer did I get all the uh the facts right yeah that's

that's right I think I think you mean race Kings right yeah race Kings was it race Kings it wasn't draft but it was about drafting right it drifting it drifting that's right yeah that was uh I think we launched that in 2016 2017 long time ago now but uh yeah yeah I'm glad I'm glad you enjoyed it well I remember that because it was a like we've met a couple of times before when I was still working at Roo I visited your studio and I I remember the story of drift King and top drives and the story was that that you had a very specific launch process just like most Studios have this is how we make games this is how we launch games you put in x amount of time and you were really focused on day seven number and drift King had per I think the best day seven number that you've seen at the at the company till date or till till that point and you really put everything behind that game and it flopped because the uh the um you know the retention actually didn't stay much past day seven

uh and then you were also making top drives at that point and top drives had I believe the worst day7 number that you've experienced in the company but being independent company not having the same type of US Financial backing as you do right now you were pretty much forced to launch top drives despite that it didn't uh reach the internal metrics that you had for launching a game and that became the biggest game uh that Hutch has ever shipped it was then uh done a different version of that was F1 clash and and pretty much you know that kind of led to the uh the acquisition of MTG and the success that he had as a company but it took uh the failure of drift Kings to launch uh top drives to become the the success that you are right now am I correct yeah no it's a it's it's a really interesting really strange story I guess you know as you said I don't think many people would have launched top drives on the face of it um but it was a it was really pretty interesting creative time because we

were working on Race Kings it you know being honest we were we were trying to sort of eat into csr's Market you know it was meant to look great me to feel great um and um yeah we just it it looked great like a great game but it just wasn't a great business and unfortunately didn't succeed which was which was you know it hurt um but we learned a lot from that and I think that failure did actually help the business hugely in terms of its growth subsequently top drives was strange because top drives just quietly went about his business in a way it was kind of quite a I don't know like a an anarak project in in it was something I was really passionate about and Johnny who Chief creative officer was really passionate about and we were like oh this would be so cool if to could do this and and um yeah the initial initial kpis were not were not good at all but

there was this weird energy this sort of community aspect that really sort of made us think maybe there are some people out there that get it and um and yeah thankfully we were free to take those risks um but it's been a great game it's it's awesome I still I still love it I still think it's got loads of potential um so yeah no it's a it's a great story and part of of running um uh a studio that is focused on car games especially car games with real cars is definitely you know the the IPS the licensing working with these brand holders or car manufacturers if you will um how how does that work like I mean let's say top drives as an example there are so many cars there is it do you need a permission for every single car and car model or how how does that operate yeah so I mean I I had a background of of license ing for for video games for

quite some time in particular like racing games where it's on the Colin McCrae franchise and uh the to touring car um race driver series with co-s then I worked some others I worked with Sony on Drive Club and um singer with CSR um so I I'd had this background I knew what you know we needed top drives is actually quite an interesting project because we had to break the model a little bit with that and the manufacturers I say were all quite used to working in a certain way um normal leagues of any game in the past you would you know you'd probably want to launch it with at least 50 cars maybe a few more maybe a few less but you probably talking to I don't know um Maxim like 20 manufacturers maybe you like iing two or three cards from them

and the model was quite established um but for top drives to work we needed quantity and we also needed real variety of cars we didn't just want you know the the US muscle car and you know the sort of hyper cars we wanted everything from you know a Volvo estate to you know um sort of you know Rover Metro you know something that was really unsexy um but you know I say really got into the sort of whole car enthusiastic world and um so we were approaching car manufacturers and literally asking can we license everything in your catalog and so it did challenge them because they had to um rethink their model and we had to persuade them quite you know we had to be quite persuasive about you know the concept and the chance of success and why this was interesting um and um thankfully you know quite a few got on board early

doors um I think we initially launched the game with about 750 cars and having sort of established it with you know a good sort of um Baseline of of cars we were able to then sort persuade the others to join and and obviously the game started to succeed so it made it easier um but yeah I mean there's conversations ongoing now between us and carra sort of all the time and E either we're signing additional content or we're you know extending the existing deals that we have um yeah but you know I I think for a game like like top drives it was it was great because there were certain manufacturers who were never able to get representation in any video game um because they weren't perceived as attractive enough and we break that mold a little bit um and our car audience you know there's nostalgia in there there's you know sort of um

guilty pleasures you know there's all sorts of things that you know you find in that game um as well as the sort of you know red-blooded you know poster cars that s of everybody loves so yeah no it's fun you've heard of heroic Labs by now and we keep talking about them because in today's mature Market you need every Edge to be successful rather than spending those precious company dollars on building game tax focus on building your game and shipping it get into your players hands faster and grow your community heroic Labs is Battle tested partner and friend of the podcast their Tech enables you to be flexible creative and scale for Success heroic Labs has your Tech stack covered whether you're looking for a worldclass backend game server an amazing game development framework Fantastic live Ops to wiing or reliable Mass scalability heroic Labs has solutions for all of these challenges and it's not just us a deconstruct structor of fun praising

heroic Labs the company works with some of the world's biggest Publishers on many of the Beloved games focus on your game save a big chunk of cheese and avoid Tech risks with heroic Labs what's the uh like when you're talking to different car manufacturers is there you have to talk to them individually or is there like a middleman in between uh it varies so a lot of the deals that we do are direct um but there are some of the manufacturers have licensing agencies involved um and that representation can change over time but um but yeah some of them you have to work for an agent um which to be honest for the most part it works fine um I think it just depends how creative your project is if you're really trying to innovate I find normally it's easier to make Headway with a manufacturer directly just because you could can

really help them to sort of understand where you're going it's a little bit difficult when you're talking to a middleman and then they're talking to you know somebody gets lost but um but generally yeah that's the way it works what's the approval process like like I mean it's it's good that we're talking about IPS and and car brands and you're sitting with a Formula 1 Ferrari uh shirt with like so many IPS on it like what is what is that uh approval process like when you're putting in a formula or let's say you're putting in a Ferrari they have to look at everybody else say like our car like whatever stats you have it has to be maxed out like it's like CR it's uh it's interesting I mean that was um when we when we started doing top drives and obviously it's a very stat based game um yeah some of the manufacturers were a little bit Twitchy about hang on a minute you're going to be it's going to be really black and white you know like an you know Audi RS4 versus a bmwm3 and that sort of thing and um but yeah I

mean the way that we you know I mean we we just persuaded them that you know look you know a lot of this stuff is out there in the public domain anyway if I you know if I was really that bothered I could find it um and ultimately you know Brands go beyond those sort of black and white performance figures anyway um so but I would say sort of generally yes the approval process can be you know it is it is an important condition of any deal that you sign with them um some of the car manufacturers or some of the brands that you'll work with are more you know lass a fair than others and are kind of willing to sort of oh yeah it looks great looks like going and you know they they might be really busy or they they might not have so many concerns whereas there are sort of other manufacturers that are really all over it and they they want to see everything you know from every single angle and they want to understand the the sort graded context of the product and yeah

without naming names you know some can be quite uh quite particular about it and you know it takes a bit more energy but um but then you know these brands are important to them you know to the manufacturers and they're obviously important to us as well which is why we're licensing them so we're going through it of course and have were there anything that were off limits like not this model like this is uh there are certain yeah well that stuff can can change over time so there have definitely been times where certain carbon manactors will be very precious about a specific model um you know for instance in the past Nissan has been very very cautious around the skyline because it is there Halo car and um and so yeah there there will be certain things that they will or won't allow you to do um

but then I say in a way those those things change you know new people come in and then they have a different opinion about how a brand or product you know should be should be marketed and yeah the the these things definitely change is quite difficult sometimes with that because you know you could be working with the manufacture for a long time and everything's fine and then all of a sudden a new CEO comes on board and literally we've had this a new CEO comes aboard and they'll say we don't want to feature old old models of our of our back catalog in games you know and be like why because you know the fans love it and they're like yeah we just want to focus on new product and you know I mean it's it's difficult but you obviously it's their choice um but in in general they're they're good and I mean in terms of off limit stuff I mean the manufacturers if we just talking about cars specifically

like manufacturers are always quite cautious about safety so they don't like things to blow up they don't like things to they don't like uh reliability to be an issue um you know so that there's some of the manufacturers do provide you with a list of you can't do these things um but it's not too difficult to be honest I mean I've worked on some games where we've been there's been a lot of damage um and it's a lot of them have been pretty relaxed about it so I think if it's in the spirit of racing and it's like perceived as being organized racing then they're pretty cool about it if it's a bit more like um if it's like a Grand Theft Auto you know you're you're racing in the streets you got police chasing you that sort of thing I think some of the manufactur will be quite Difficult about that I understand understand I mean if you watched like the latest John Wick there's there's a lot of car Damage Done

In addition to enormous amount of homicide at the same time but they feel you know it's a I think it's yeah how how you portray it I was just going to say some of the films you know obviously they're they're different Departments of the manufacturers that paying product placement so you know funnily enough you can get situations where a certain manufacturer is quite Difficult about video game but you know that they've paid for product placement in a film that's probably much worse depiction big companies yeah I think they pay a lot for James Bond wasn't that the case uh but yeah he doesn't treat his cars you know always so nicely that's true there's barely anything left of them this podcast is brought to you by apps flyer in today's Digital World understanding your apps Journey from Discovery to download is more than just insightful it's essential enter apps flyer the leader in Mobile attribution marketing analytics that allows you to

measure the full potential of your marketing efforts making every ad dollar work smarter with apps flyer that's your new reality dive deep into Data driven insights that reveal exactly where your users come from and how they interact with your app app sler where your app's potential meets performance um but how do you how do you approach these you know the the license holders that you work with are gigantic they have these you know magnificent brands that the whole world knows how do you approach them as a as a small developer like you started off pitching to them long before you were working with MTG even the F1 deal came before MTG so how do you how do you approach these uh these license holders um I mean I think the the big Brands um don't mean it like that I mean like the the the brands non-car manufacturer

Brands probably pitched a bit differently um the car manufacturers for the most part I say they're I think there's an established model and for the most part if um you're willing to work within that model it's relatively straightforward to license providing I say you can work within their their guidelines and and obviously commit to their obligations um uh there are certain manufacturers where they're very popular so as I said to you there are certain cars know there are certain products where they will almost be in every game and so it's I know some of the manufacturers have been kind of overwhelmed and they might need a bit more persuasion to try and understand why is this game different to anything else you know I mean I'm in Need for Speed I'm in CSR why do I need to be in anything else and I think you know that where the sort of creative point of

difference is quite important and maybe the way that you're going to position their brand or their cars will will be important um and obviously I think the caliber of the team I think you know like our team the the developer in question you know why should they why should they get involved with us and you know at the time you know we were to you know sort of talk about the experience that we had as a as a group of people making games um we had experience on on a lot of other products using licensed content and so that obious breeds confidence um if I'm looking at a product uh sorry a brand or a license outside of car manufacturers then yeah I think I think it it very much depends like what is the motivation of the partner that you're working with like what can you add I think with Formula 1

for instance um we spoke to them a for probably a year maybe 18 months before we did the deal with them I think we did the deal in about mid 2018 I personally had worked with Formula 1 in the past I'd done a deal with with um Bernie Eon for Formula 1 at COD Masters so um I kind of knew what they needed and it wasn't the first thing I did when we went to Hutch I mean when we went to when we were at Hutch we we kind of working in a with different products different audiences but we very quickly I think created a coherent strategy for um you know where we were taking the business and racing was our Focus the car audience was our focused and Formula 1 obviously being the biggest Motorsport was um felt a very obvious Target for us at some point but I think for us it's always been about how do we grow the pie

you know it's very difficult to compete against the very biggest players you know there is a huge amount spent on Art the teams are massive you know the games look amazing and I think you know we we being a very small independent Studio knew that it was going to be quite difficult to compete you know on that front and so we took the fight in a different way we decided that actually for us it was how do we make um you know we kind of felt that racing and and cars were s of underserved in Mobile and so for us it was like how can we deliver an experience that people can engage this content they that they enjoy um and you know do it in such a way that you know is maybe complimentary or distinct to to some other products out there um which is why we came up with top drives you initially um and then I think it was like a similar

approach really with with f F1 um with F1 we really wanted to offer a mobile first experience um something that didn't rely on like dextr skill and something that was very different to the F1 console game that was out there JV seed is fantastic um but I don't think people really want to play you know a console experience on a phone I mean there might be people but that's probably quite small subset um and for us it was I say taken it to a wider audience and so that really was our pitch to Formula One and I think you know it was at a time when you know we knew that the ownership had changed their objectives were to grow the sport and so we very much sort of fed that you know into our pitch about you know how we could help to you know expand the audience um for F1 game ging on mobile and um I think it resonated

really well um obviously you know we uh you know there was some risk on our part you know we did some we did some validations of prototyping um we felt pretty good about the direction that we were going in um but um yeah nothing's ever a sure thing until you launched and um and yeah the game was uh was a huge success and um and obviously that's bred confidence we've we've now had a a relationship with them for for a long time continuing to work with them and and I think again like again you know success breeds confidence and when you've got that then you know we've had other people approach us and and sort of said oh we've seen what you've done with top drives we've seen what you've done with F1 we love you to have it you know to work with us on this and sometimes it's the right you know Brands sometimes it's not or sometimes it's not the right time um but um but yeah Forza was kind of a similar

that was kind of partly how it came about they we actually were approach by um turn 10 and um that was probably 2019 um early 2019 um it was a quite a long conversation because I think initially they were approaching us for a work for hire and you know they were probably approaching lots of other Studios and um I think we may be surprised them by telling them we were not interested in work for high but we love fora we it was again another you know if you're looking at racing and and car you know audiences and sort media you know thoughts is up there is one of the biggest and so you know we engaged in a conversation with them um we explained the way that we sort of approached making games the way that we wanted to make games I think they were really surprised it was obviously completely different to the way that they approach games um and yeah that that very much started off

as a conversation and we had multiple conversations and really it was like getting to know you you know we were talking about you know how we' made race Kings we talked about the failure we didn't hide it you know we talked about top drives talked about F1 talked about thoughts there in terms of our ideas our understanding um all the time being humble because we don't know their brand as they do um and um and then yeah we we got into a situation where they they really wanted us to sort pitch for it and we we kind of found a different way of working which was effectively we were licensing the bran from them and making the game and Publishing it as a hutch game um and um again sort of similar to what I said about you know F1 it was we very much approaching it from over our first perspective you know we wanted to innovate you know we wanted to test some

things and see how could we you know bring the brand to life um in a nonobvious way and um it was probably couldn't have been any less obvious I think than the worker with Match 3 um as as some people have told us but um but you know it I say we went through a process of of of prototyping and and validating and it performed really well um we worked on it a long time and um and yeah I mean it's it's great to get it out there great to get some uh some real data see people playing it enjoying it um and yeah we've got big plans yeah interestingly enough Forza and chrome Valley Customs from spaceape which is a studio located like about five blocks away from I've never never heard of never heard of space eight or ch I'm just wondering a lot of coffee shops

a lot of conversations going around so uh no it's uh we we in games like everybody tends to have same ideas that's not a not a I mean I mean I think I I I think there was actually another title out there that had tried to do something like this um quite a while ago and and not it hadn't really worked I honestly don't know how this happened and I'm sure Simon is asking himself the same question um but yeah we were we were pretty surprised um as I'm sure they were but um you know I take it as a compliment and I'm sure they do too same ideas um and and so when it comes to pitching your your company to the key license holder is to kind of summarize it is it more uh focusing on understanding what the license license holder is looking for and then formulating your pitch rather than coming with uh with constantly you know with with the pitch first I I I

personally think that's where you have most success um and that's where that's normally the way that I try and approach things trying to understand what their objectives what are they trying to get out of it obviously some of this stuff is in the media and you know I say like Formula One it was Liberty being really open about their objectives and their Vision so you know we were able to sort of Leverage that um but I think you know we we had a similar experience to the port to what with um Mattel and Hot Wheels and I think the first time we spoke to Hot Wheels I think we kind of engaged in that conversation just thinking I'm not sure where we go with this like I'm not sure that's the right brand for us um and the more we spoke with them and more we got to understand the brand the um the more we could see actually this is quite interesting and actually just works it just fell out a really good time for us because there was something we were working on that we could see could be a really good fit um

but yeah I mean I think you have to the the best the best the best executions are the ones where there is respect on both sides for you know what it is that you're trying to make um rather than it just being a case of like the developer sticking brand you know on the box or you know the license or just taking the money you know it's the potential is much bigger than than that and you know hopefully um they breed the best s long-term relationships as well yeah yeah of course makes sense so before pitching understand what the other side is actually interested in buying and then formulate around that and build a relationship uh around the uh the shared goals of both parties when it comes to working with a license holder uh in this case these car manufacturing companies what do developers need to offer like

what is what what is the day to-day the month to month and what what is expected of a developer I think um I would say it varies dramatically I mean we've got um I honestly have lost track how many car manufacturers we've licensed now uh but we've probably got a 100 different car manufacturers now licensed um you probably didn't know that many existed um but um yeah they vary I mean some of the you know you've got the big manufacturers like the big American you know Ford GM that sort of thing and and obviously these are huge huge companies um they've done a lot licensing they will they will be able to provide things like CAD data for certainly their most most recent models um and you know they will expect to use to go through a quite

defined approval process um and so I mean I think the most important thing I could advise is is is is really on the on you the developer as opposed to um you know the the manufacturer is not going to ask you this but I think the best thing is always to avoid surprises so context is quite important you know there are video games and there are video games and if you think something's quite got the potential to be controversial I would advise that you you you pitch it and you pitch it in the most positive way that you can in advance rather than wait for them to find this out later and you know I've had situations in the past where you know I've consulted the companies in the past and they've you know created they they've built the game they've got the

approval for the model and they've created a marketing video and the marketing video is just about ready to go out they've shared it with the manufacturer and they've said what the hell is this you know this doesn't and and it's oh the game's developed and you know the design evolved and they never kept them up to date and that's where sort of issues can arise um but generally I think you know if you sort of retain a dialogue then um it sort of avoids those sort of things G and you can mitigate you know sort of early on but but generally I say the manufacturer doesn't really in their head in lot a lot lot of these people that you're working with are not Gamers a lot of these people might not even care about games which you know might disappoint some people uh but um you know they are they could be licensing all sorts of things from Bad sheets to um you know uh very expensive pens I don't know what but you know it's it's a

varied role for some people so you know they they they won't necessarily understand you know the intricacies of a you know a game and uh yeah you've got to kind of keep them up to up to speed um yeah the bigger manufacturers they will have sort of dedicated licensing people um but then you'll work with also smaller manufacturers and they can go one of two ways they can be either really um they can be almost so enthusiastic that they just want to be involved in everything they want to understand like your physics model and are you represented the suspension exactly the way that you know all this sort of thing and some of that could be really helpful like you know there have been games in the past I've worked on where it's been super helpful to have you know somebody to sort of consult with on on you know certain d Dynamics and this and that um

and the dev team have loved it uh I've also seen where it can be quite difficult and almost it's too high maintenance you know um but you you know quite often the smaller manufacturers are very busy and their their small operations and you know sometimes the challenge can be just getting them to respond and uh you know because they're doing lots of other things so it kind of depends I say there's there's some where it's once they've signed the the license deal and they're getting paid They Don't Really Care um and and then there'll be others that I say will be wanting to understand whether you know their car is you know performing exactly how it does in the real world and you know so they'll be kind of enthusiastically engaging with you on that so um it's definitely a mixed bag yeah so basically adjust the uh the proper level communication based on the need of the license definitely definitely step into the

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how important is for them that that you're finding the fun of the game together or are they just disengage with that I think it really varies I think for the most part um you know from our point of view obviously we're mention it as a as a fun exciting Innovative experience um often um and you know we will very much be sort of trying to talk it up energetically and getting them to sort of really buy into it and using sort of key Arts to try and sell that experience and kind of give them a window into what it is um and some of the com mans will really bind that and they'll you know they'll be excited about that some of them will you know some of them are Gamers and some of them will have opinions and they'll ask quite intell questions about how it Compares against other experiences etc etc and they

they'll be trying to understand the commerciality of the you know the product um there are definitely other manufacturers where I think they um are less sort of well versed in this space and you know I think as long as you are I I I I think they'll it'll be more about who else is in the game you know what is their position in the game um when is the game coming out and how much they going to get and it's it's it can be quite you know a business focus conversation um which is yeah just the way it is with with with some companies yeah yeah especially for for folks who are working in the uh licens side of business in the end they are bring additional revenue for the brands that the company has so of course the uh

the business focus is primary uh for them but it is interesting how some some of the manufacturers I would say a lot of them are very you know that they are not really um swayed by who else is in games you know um they will um they might be aware of it but they don't necessarily worry about it but I have have you know consulted for companies in the past where that's been a big thing they they've like they've come to me and said why are we not in this game and you know how can we get into this game it's it's quite interesting because like these are big big companies and you know clearly you know that there is that Competitive Edge at the top and I'm talking about like the very top of the company it's it's it's quite fascinating um but yeah so it it really depends on the individuals thing inside and their

motivation what's going on and then you worked I mean youve worked for 13 years or 12 years with different um car manufacturers so how do you maintain that long relationship with with these IP holders I mean I I think Honesty and I mean honesty is the number one I think you know always being accessible taking responsibility and dealing with a problem if it arises things will arise from time to time um and I mean I don't like to oversell something um so you know we we I think like I said to you before about um being proactive and and you know keeping a breast of things I think I've definitely come across people in the past that have potentially looked to sign something up and once it signed they kind of forget about the deal you know what I mean and and um I think this

doesn't go for licensing it goes really for any sort of deal making you know people remember that stuff um so I think if you're you know if you have a history of of being a reliable business partner somebody that they can trust you know you retain confidential information you don't share it um and you know then you know over time that that that buys you a certain amount of credibility that um and and people then are willing I think to take risks with you um definitely I think with top drives a few people took risks because of my track record um it was the concept as well but I think you know the fact that we the deal we were asking them to do I think you know they were there were some Brave decisions um on their part because they did feel like they could trust us um but

um yeah I I say I think that's probably the same in business in general treat people the way you want to be treated and you know all that sort of stuff it's not about interpersonal relationship like some like part of it is of course negotiating reporting being reliable business partner uh but another part that may come up with with other relationships with in business especially is formulating relationship with the uh you know on a personal level as well uh where that lowers the the sort of a formality of communication people can can talk openly um do you should should uh should a studio basically invest more as well in formulating those relationships so actually flying on the destination spending some time with them uh showing faces and showing they're not just just people on the screen uh sending papers to be signed yeah I mean there's I'm I'm sure there were people that would go to far grad length and I would um but um I

mean I do value face to face and I think I've always you know especially when you start a new project I think you can get that face Toof face time I think it sends a stronger signal um I i' I also also they also try and I think you want to become more than just a name in an email you want to be you know a person and so you know shaking hands finding a little bit about them having lunch with them F who what football team they support you know this sort of thing like it's I say I don't think it's rocket science it's stuff that you know a lot of people do outside of um of Licensing but um you know it feels like it's those small things that that can sometimes go a long way um just making the effort I mean there were certain cars I remember where it's really difficult to get anywhere like really like you'd send emails You' ring them them and it like and not necessarily these people are bad people

often they're just busy and you you every time I'd speak to them they'd be like yeah I'm going to get to it I've just got to do this and do that and I I'll do it tomorrow and it never happens and then I said to them right okay I'll fly to Sweden or I fly to Germany or wherever and um I come and see and you go and suddenly that accelerates things like dramatically and it's so it definitely I think makes a makes a big difference um and we've got you know we've now built out a team at at HUD um so I've got you know three people working on licensing full-time and um yeah they but they they've just built up such a strong rapport with with the the clients that we're working with and we actually just sent some people out to Japan to um meet a number of the manufacturers out there um you know and it's it just goes such a long way because I think particular

places like Japan you know people don't from the you know Western developers don't necessarily visit very regularly so I think they do really value that sort of thing um yeah definitely the the other part that is important when you're formulating these interpersonal relationships is the showing the knowledge and the um the appreciation of their IP so I assume that you and and your team are probably car nuts would that be correct yeah I mean uh yeah I would say we've got a good combination throughout the studio I think of between people that are car enthusiasts and like racing enthusiasts and then sort of just real Gamers and gaming enthusiasts and um yeah not everybody is into cars and I think the licensing team it's similar I think um probably half of them are I would say

very they could definitely hold their own in any sort of car conversation and then we've got a couple of people that are you know they're sort more familiar with sort of games and Publishing and um less necessarily on specific car models but I mean you quickly picked this up when you're dealing with you know number of Manufacturers we are you know that that knowledge you know comes through by osmosis and and you know you find yourself Talking car when you uh in your sleep but um but no I mean it's it's like somebody like myself you know I love cars I love racing and um yeah this is it's not really work you know it's a joy to to have these conversations so for me I mean I think as part of it when I meet these people you can talk enthusiastically about their products and it's not selling it just authentic right and and um and then that often opens up opportunity because

you know we're not just talking about you know Cs on our list that we want you know other things or maybe come up and and that potentially opens the doors to you know new things for us to do so yeah I mean it doesn't work with everybody um you know that you know not everybody wants to talk to a fan booy um so you have to know know your audience but um but yeah I mean it's it's uh it definitely helps I think in general how about the um the the top mistakes uh you've done or you've seen other developers do when they pursue different brands I top mistakes you know there there' definitely be times in my career where I think you know I said about the um you know keeping people informed and especially as design evolves and I think in particular I had this in like console Vel M where console development be a long time and Designs can change

quite dramatically and I've definitely been in a situation in the past where something had changed and we probably or we should have been more proactive in keeping like one of our partners a breast of what was happening and finding out later that they were um not as enthusiastic about that change um and and then having to sort of pick that up and deal with that um was definitely challenging so I can I can share that from personal experience that it's better to be uh to be up front about these things is not just things changing I think also some of the manufacturers super when you do a deal they want to see their cont well some of them want to see their content in the game and like I said there are certain manufacturers very enthusiastic some of them not so but if you sign content then there's an expectation it's going to feature and either you know if it

doesn't feature because you know sometimes things you get an enthusiastic manufacturer that maybe feels like well I I've given you all of this and I've helped you with that and blah blah blah and now my cars AR featuring The Game that can that can be problematic or you get a situation whereby um you've negotiated terms so that payment is only subject to inclusion in the game and then it's not been included in the game and they feel like well hang on a minute we did this deal and Something's Happened and often those arise because you know design Evolution um so it's not necessarily something you can always um prevent but I would you know I think we are quite proactive with our internal development team in terms of look we sign this content these guys are expecting this so making sure not only the manufacturers up to date but also the development team are aware of the relationships you know

these are not just contracts that we've signed and and stuff that we can just pick up and put down as we like you know these are there are expectations attached and um I say it doesn't mean that we can compromise the product necessarily but hopefully if if things do change or people are maybe thinking about going in a different direction you can get ahead of those sort of things so couple of examples there are things I could share yeah so proactive communication always very important in all kinds of Partnerships um last but not least can you tell us what is your favorite car brand oh wow or if there are some few well yeah I think Ferrari could be at least one based on on the shirt that you're wearing at least the other racing I mean I am such a a big car guy and I yeah if I you know my dream garage would be would need

to be multistory because I would I would need so very yeah I mean I love Italian cars I love German cars um you know I'm I'm a fan of of of a lot of different Vehicles depending on what the need might be but but yeah I mean like like everybody I mean SP cars are normally uh my tiple if I something yeah nice how about you how about you meish sure have you got a a favorite car I don't I actually um I really don't care about cars that much like I like reliable car uh that doesn't consume a lot of of whatever energy it uses so I have a German electric car and um I'm uh I'm very um nonp passionate about it because I have two kids we live in the North and no matter what kind of a car you have they will destroy from the inside I also have a pitbull and so if I would have any

kind of a car that I would have emotional ties to which are many like I I'm I'm a fan of G wagons and stuff like that definitely but but they would uh but they would like it would be horrible to to own that because I would see how um they would look like my car looks now from the inside so i' rather not have anything that I really like and then I just don't care that much and I've uh I've sometimes like currently I don't have a least I know actually have one leased car as well but I like leasing a car because then also I don't care as much when it gets destroyed from the inside but maybe one day when the kids a a little bit older or when they when I don't have to allow them to come into the car I could get a car that I could actually care about yeah kid kids and cars don't really mix it's it's a dangerous exactly I I I have a friend also who works in gaming and he does have uh I have a couple of friends who uh who have those uh electric Porsches and they are beautiful inside but they have made the rules that this is Daddy's car and no matter what happens to you

you are not allowed to there's the estate Vol over there that is for you and this is Daddy's car that sounds like a very sensible solution yeah I'm I'm not in that position where I could have uh that type of a solution so um so my car is my kid's car very very good very good uh I I think you got your priorities right to be honest yeah yeah yeah so so yeah that's uh that's that's my side of cars but uh Peter it was uh it was great having you on the podcast this is a really interesting conversation because even though uh you are focused on car brands but this same type of a conversation could apply to to folks working with with entertainment IPS uh it's a lot about U managing your relationship with an IP holder and as we know now in the games it's it's almost uh a must to either have your own IP or to work with an IP of somebody else to

get above you know the uh get over the the Privacy challenges and and so for that there this approach that Hutch has is one of the most professional ones in the industry of how you work with with IPS and have been working for over 10 years so um so in that sense I think this is a very valuable conversation even though folks had to hear about the type of cars that I would like to drive yeah no thanks um and you're right I mean it it we definitely see sort of spikes of interest when we when we you know uh release new car content and different manufacturers so it definitely helps to drive interest um I would say just lastly just um in terms of entertainment Brands I think um when you're licensing entertainment Brands I think they are more likely to be interested in the game and the fun Factor than maybe car manufacturers which I know we touched on earlier um because I think obviously you know fun and and and being entertaining is obviously you know pretty key in sort of

how they you know representing their characters or you know IP is is is so sort of more closely linked um but um yeah so it's probably a more in-depth conversation there yeah it's the approval process is also different often times there's time pressure as well because if you let's say you're working with uh Disney IPS uh if they have shows coming out then you want to promote those same characters in your game that the Disney Plus show is currently running so those have to be clearly tied with their marketing effort so that added approval process uh is can be quite heavy uh but again you have to be proactive you have to have people on it it's not just a free thing where or not it's never free but it's not just a revenue share or upfront cost of using an IP there's a lot of communication that needs to happen especially if your plan is to use those assets in your promotional material and now it sets

also certain limitations of how you can promote it etc etc so a lot of approval process and the bigger the uh the IP holder the more relevant the uh the IP the more communication is required definitely definitely and I think um it's probably some of the entertainment Brands it's more of a collaboration because obviously it's storytelling or you depending on what it is that you're working with so yeah it's it's probably fullon investment and you know um some people might not recognize the uh the experience that we have with with sort car manufacturers but um yeah I'd say you know that that's that's probably quite distinctive um but um but yeah I mean obviously that's a maybe a talk on its own in terms of uh entertainment and talent Etc yeah so um to uh to cap this off what's what's next for Hutch like what are you what are you looking forward in

24 and 25 really we' go as a as a newly appointed Co CEO well um we've got a another title that's due to release very soon with NASCAR um so um we um we signed a deal with NASCAR last year hav't spoken to them for a while um really excited to to get something out with them obviously we've had success with Formula 1 um NASCAR is is huge in the US um I mean the the numbers are phenomenal um and yeah we're we're excited to to really try and sort of tap into that market a bit more um obviously it feels very well timed they've just launch I don't know if you've seen a series with Netflix yes I saw that that's on my list I I started watching last week and it's is awesome um I really enjoy it um so yeah it's actually really pum me I mean I was excited about it anyway but I I feel like yeah it's good timing um so

yeah that that's that's a big thing for us so that will be four live games that we're supporting um on once that game is live and um and yeah I mean we we've got a few other irons in our in our fire um so early validation um so yeah we'll we'll see there's always a lot to learn with these things um but yeah we we're very busy interesting that you're making interesting that you're making the the NASCAR game because space AE released country star game and I would assume that that is a very similar audience again God damn it um yeah there is definitely some um yeah no I I I heard that those guys were were doing something with uh with country music and it sounds sounds like a really smart move so yeah yeah maybe maybe you can connect with some of the uh the IPS of the music music houses that they are connected to those soundtracks yes or soundtracks that you

could use in your game true uh so that's true so country music and NASCAR I don't know what goes better just put a beer brand to it and you're good to go and it's as real as it gets yeah we should uh we should reach out to them yeah yeah I'm sure Bud would be uh happy to sponsor yeah I don't think I've got that one on me but yeah yeah well well that's a that's a European shirt so uh so so um oh well next time we'll we'll be talking and you'll be wearing a NASCAR shirt with even more ads on it looking forward to that looking forward to the success of of the the NASCAR title and uh and overall just growth and success of Hutch I think it's a super exciting company uh you've been really focused on one specific genre but then uh growing your Audience by not making same type of a games but rather combining different type of games with that same uh expertise and the love that you have towards cars and racing so uh really interesting to see the future games that you're doing thank you really nice uh to

do this so thank you Misha thank you for inviting me thank you everybody for listening and you can catch Peter on LinkedIn and Hutch well I'll link in the description there's probably going to be open positions as those games are scaling so um yeah HUD hudge games and Peter Hansen thank you so much thank you take it easy