WHOW Games’ Tobias Edl On Growth Hacks And Top Tips For Standing Out In The F2P World

[Music] thank you hello world welcome back to the pg.biz podcast for another riveting session join us your co-hosts Brian baglo and the ever Illuminating Piggy and Salt's good afternoon Peggy it's lovely to see you again lovely to see you too actually Brian I am always astounded how you find another adjective for every single episode I'm not counting but uh it's gonna get pretty eclectic later on around episode 80. uh we'll see what happens okay that's why that's why we have the thesaurus that's it gonna keep going through we're gonna keep going for well it's great to be back and yes I was out there again as you always point out jet setting and bringing back amazing guests what I've done again Brian I'm not going to ruin my record because we're going to dive into what made this

company amazing it calls itself the Candy Crush of the casino world and that is what got me I'm like okay then we have to have you on the show so that's exactly what we're doing with our guest today he is Tobias or Toby Adel as we'll call him director of marketing and new business at wow games where he's been for over five years right and that in the gaming space is rare another thing that's quite rare is his talent because his biggest one his colleagues say is his ability to deliver whether that was managing publishing Partnerships for King and Central Europe or leading Business Development into games that's what he does and his colleagues and I looked at this this is even better call him the face in the industry that you need to know and on that note I have to kick off this one Brian because I need to ask it I did the research Toby I need to know about the m m candies on your LinkedIn profile because they literally do show your face so you

yes indeed you are the one the face we need to know it seems yeah regarding the M M's um actually it's some kind of fun fact the M Ms are green so it was back then at my times at innogames when we um yeah wanted yeah do something special and we want that our team get some kind of reminder with our partners which is set in the industry so my team and I we we create the M Ms with with it was not only me so we created with several people from from the team the M Ms and and sent this out as a Christmas present um to our partners because we thought it might be more funnier than just sending stuff out with the company logo on it because it's always the people behind so which are in charge of a successful product and and the company on a certain point I thought okay I like them so much and I put them on my lead

Toby I'm loving it enjoying your work so far so so I'm intrigued okay and Peggy has talked about the Candy Crush of the casino world and I bet a lot of our audience are going okay you might have to talk us through that so so tell us more about this game tell us you know a little bit more about what it what we're all about here yeah um just a quick uh introduction into our biggest product with it's my jackpot so with my jackpot we create a casino where we want to entertain people um if you are thinking about slot machines and in Casino um and if you look into online slot machines um if I talk about real money gambling it's it's just the spinning and the case of winning money as we offer a free-to-play product where you can't win anything we entertain the people with the social feature so we build a

gamification around slot content um we have some kind of a feature like a a map this is where I compared with with Candy Crush where you have to fulfill missions so for example you have to spin the slot machine 50 times you have to find the Cherry symbol by spinning the slot 80 times yeah so and and there you collect stars and you collect this stars on the map and then you continue for example to the next slot machine and then you fulfill some kind of other Mission and then you player with other people so in some kind of challenges and Community where you can really compete with them and it's all about like collecting badges collecting your stars yeah create your club together with other people it's all about like interacting fulfill your mission and the same thing you do at Candy Crusher you finish one level you go on to the next mission yeah so this is something that we did with our product and it's it's

Great Entertaining so it's a bit like walking through a casino in Las Vegas where you could see the different slot machines and got the full entertainment around yeah so and this is something that we build with our product I love the idea because it's a it's a really simple mechanic it's kind of almost a universally understood mechanic but it's recontextualizing it and giving your players an Epic Quest um through a whole I guess landscape of of different challenges um but with that that that single kind of um game of chance at the core so what is it that you think that the players enjoy most you must know what keeps them coming back what's keep them coming back it's that they reach new levels they unlock new features so the things every time they are returning back to the platform they can explore something different yeah so we always launch uh new um events um so the thing is every let's say we have smaller events which

are between two and three days and we have bigger events which run um like form for four weeks um but every time the user if they return to the platform they can explore something new yeah so something is happening they're even like events where you drive around with small slot cars around the slot machine so I don't know if you like this Carrera slot cars yeah or like a horse race so and this is in real time against uh four or eight other users so every time you spin the slot machine and you hit a jackpot you small slot car will move and the first three places will get additional chips so it's some kind of yeah real-time event competing against other users and these events are not that permanent two day three days and then turn off and there's another event so it's always something fresh to explore and on the other hand we also add a lot of new content from the slot site to the product so every second day you can also explore a new slot machine but I want to stay with the

gameplay for just a moment because it's the real-time real world here that I think is exciting you know it's um real time for the slot car race for example I'm playing I'm moving the car it has that energy and excitement how do you keep those energy levels that player interest high and how important is Real Time overall in the scheme of things it is free time so the experience that the car is moving that that you really see that you play against other users that someone is hitting the jackpot yeah all these kind of information you're giving back to the user is um this is something that that is really kicking in so that the user's got the experience okay I'm playing really against other people yeah so and I can play on my own if I want so this jackpot Germany for example that we have on our platform uh with with the map this is some kind of single player stuff yeah together with the other people this is a trigger yeah so this is

taking and that that it's some kind of of competition there and and it's all about competition be better than the others and if you miss it this time next time uh I will beat it and this is how I use this going on and yeah keep on playing so the thing is that the whole product is free to play um but I have to say for sure um if you on a certain point run out of chips that you can't spin the machine anymore so you can wait or go to watch a video or or claim your free chips and then the payment store or you can wait and spend every two hours A Wheel of Fortune then you can claim your free chips um and there we end up a bit again on the Candy Crush site where you can wait like 15 minutes to get your extra life but if you want to continue right now because maybe you're in a competition and you can buy a chipped package and this is how we make money so that we sell additional chips packages as extra lives on other games you've

done a lot of things and I've looked at it you know these are really cool looking slot machines Brian if you check out the game right this is this is not just slot machine this is experience these are these are Egyptian feel and all sorts you know like the real thing because I was at Mal in Las Vegas it looks it looks very very similar a lot of work goes into designing these what's the coolest thing that you've done or that your team has accomplished here Toby in making this side event this these uh these these even these live Ops events you know it's all about increasing stickiness but you do that with a wow effect you're a wild game so what is it what's the wow factor here I think at the end it's it's the passion of the product owners that they really engaged into the a product and they always want to achieve the next level so if I look back when I started five years ago at wow um I have to say the product was a different world yeah so it was really in

the beginning um Also regarding the graphics it was more like the slot machine uh where we want to yeah bring Las Vegas to the people but this was not this whole thing around and uh and and over the years we we also learned from our users and we listen to our users what they yeah like to have what kind of things we should change and and we are also in in a close communication with with our users so that we listen to them we are there but but the thing is we are not at the end so we're still adding any adding things to the product and um and this is how how yeah we get the energy from that we see that the users really love the product they love to play it and this is the positive feedback that we are receiving if I tell you there are users which are already since six years that the product and and playing the game some people there they they love it so much and and they explore like every two days something

new and uh growing their level and this is where we also take our energy form yeah that we see the people are happy they are enjoy the game and and and then play it and and yeah this is also something where we get something back I was just gonna say your your personal favorite we started out with the cool the cool thing the cool thing that you like most is there something you can name it's cool to see how how things change how we we achieved stuff and uh and uh yeah what we build yeah so this makes me personal quite proud about our company and and uh and that we really yeah develop also the graphic style so so I really like our side events especially the calendar stuff it seems as though this would be a an ideal kind of vehicle for Brands licenses IP you know the real slot machine world is full of the Branded um you know machines is is this something that you've done or is this something that you you would potentially look at doing in in the future actually

this is something that we already do and we we license our product out uh to Partners to like to explore the Social Casino world and yes so this is something that we offer to the market so we offer a completely white label solution uh to Partners who um wants to have their perfect solution which is uh proofed that will make money and uh yeah we offer it's this as a service what sort of brand you don't have to name names but what sort of plans have you seen give you the biggest uplift is it is it the same real world brand from casinos or can you be a little more imaginative and creative actually you can search the App Store if you look for wow games so they're they're certain brands um which are inside and uh it is from let's say Partners which yeah want to have their own product and step into the Social Casino which are had never

something done before with casino and but on the other hand they are also like real money Casino Brands they want to establish their brand on the market where they that say can't be active um just to name one it's it's Mercury so macro is uh it's a also German bass but uh worldwide active um owner of land-based casinos and online casinos and they collaborate with us for example let's stay on tactics that have brought you success one is you're talking about Brands can get involved um what is another approach or tactic that you think has brought you the biggest uplift because Social Casino is a crowded space and I was attracted to you Toby because that's just it you have a different approach and I think we have a lot to learn from that yeah so one thing that is different on our end so that we trust a lot on

Partners so in the past we collaborate with Media Partners like TV stations portals um where we be integrated inside the games unit um we also collaborate with with Partners uh with with yeah TV sports Cobra and TV sports for example at the RTL group or um for at Discovery networks um so these are our partners where we build up a partnership and there yeah we combine advertisement on the television together with our slots and with our brand and we guide the users to the gaming portal of the partner it's all about like like long-term Partnerships this gives us also from the other end the the trust from the partner to do even more and this is all that we grow over the years so if we if we stick with marketing um from the game itself and you know

you've got a B testing You've Got The Branding you've got the partners is there a rule of thumb you kind of adopt when it comes to picking a winning creative um that you would you could share with our listeners and share with audience out there is there a metric you focus on or a sample size you demand for high confidence in your tests and where is it you're going and what what do you tend to fall back on so one sentence that I can just say is directly never stop testing so I'm Toby every everyone says that too yeah but it's true it's true that we for example if I look only into Performance Marketing we had one Banner yeah so which was over years always the winning I can and and we test like every two to four weeks we create new Banner sets we test it always against these old banner

and uh and it was always highest click rate highest conversion after the image and and it was really like every month when we did the marketing update no it's still the old image no it's still the old image yeah and and the designers made like awesome stuff yeah so and the thing is what what was important for me that that we always show you see what you get from the product so we never ever produced some kind of fake banners or some kind of fake games or something like this so then I think after four years we had a new winner so which we proper test and then we exchange it but then again we never stopped um yeah testing new images and also the old creative testing it against the the new winner testing testing testing is it's the bread and butter um and it sounds like yeah everyone say testing yeah but it's the truth you know

the funny thing about testing is it can also knock down your own preconceived notions and hypotheses as well has that ever happened can you share something there it really depends on the market and so you can't say there one fits all it's really that you have to test it and in all the markets even with Austria and Germany yeah so same language um and they are even cultural difference and and we see difference there regarding the the image and and this sometimes surprised me a bit so because we thought like okay German speaking region should be the same thing but no well speaking as somebody from Scotland uh I'm just outside Edinburgh within the UK I can absolutely sympathize with that it means that you have to get granular but boy does it make a difference when you're reaching those people and also the engagement is then different if the it uses got some kind of feeling if you

have a good localized product they feel like home yeah so it's um it's it's a it's a user trust that you also build if you have a good localization and uh also you build something which is a good fit for the market well I think that's the thing you know localization is not easy as you've just said there's a lot of hard work that goes into it but it but it can really you know pay pay dividend so how important is localization to your your overall success you know you said up front that you were um you had players all over the world do you put that down to not just the quality of the game but but your efforts to support each of these different regions in each of these different markets yeah so we localize our product into 16 languages so this is the language but we even make a difference uh between English United Kingdom English North America English Australia um as um they even got different words for for

for chips for example there is something for each different market so um regarding customer support so we cover 16 languages but for the all the other markets especially like Asia when the users play our product it's English I have to say um so it's available but but then for the rest of the world um the product is there in English and I think we're coming dangerously close to finding a way to encapsulate encapsulate your approach Toby people platform Partnerships and personalization so you've got four P's right there so yeah it's it's a smart approach and it's very clearly working for you you're right we could add one because I spoke with Toby of course prep he's also excited about third-party another P third-party app stores but how are you pursuing this opportunity Toby it's a good way to reach an additional bucket of users that you can't reach by the traditional

channels um I'm a big fan of of the Amazon tablet devices or also the Huawei store so these two environments are yeah some kind of up close universe so you can't reach the Amazon tablet users on another Channel then via the the tablets itself and same as for the Huawei regarding work so it's not that much work you have to put into to um to Port your um APK to the Amazon device um but it's a it's a nice channel so this is the thing you know we we speak to a lot of um a lot of developers and it's still one of these areas where they tend to think about the you know the the market leaders the Giants is is the kind of the BL and handle but for more and more of the studios out there especially those who are trying to reach different audiences around the world they can be a really valuable addition but you know

how are you seeing that changing to be are they becoming more prominent more valuable you know are Apple and Google just going to rule the world forever or are you seeing this kind of this Dynamic change competition is good for the business especially if you have yeah two Market Leaders with Apple and Google but um but also the small ones let's call them the small ones so but for us it's it's a good portion of money that you're making and then even the registrations are way smaller um the revenue is is a quite nice channel for sure you have to cover IOS and Android but if you have the resources um and it's possible for you also adapt your um your APK to to to the smaller third-party ones and it's not that much work we have to put in I highly recommend to do so so and uh because it's an extra uh benefit and it's an

extra channel that you can't reach via the traditional marketing what I'm noticing the more I talk with marketers is they just seem like a very stressed Bunch right now you know they're thinking about big things they've got big topics big problems how do I do UA in a privacy first world what's going to happen with AI and marketing that's where they're at but you are talking about paying attention to the smaller things you know third-party app stores localization so in that Spirit what do you think marketers are in danger of missing where should they focus more effort than they are currently partnership and something on on long term yeah so do not um do something like uh yeah spend the money there test something there so it's all about like building something up and and be aware that that you want to build something for the long term so what I see that a lot of people so like this network thing so there's a one performance Network

popping up there like oh yeah I have users give me the money yes and on the other end yeah but I have the best user so and and this is yeah it's popping up everywhere so and then this is not my let's say cup of tea so um we are more like okay we will test Partners on a smaller scale and then we build them slowly up and and and and and see if the quality is is right because my major focus is always if I and it doesn't matter where the partner is from yeah if it's a performance Network or is it is it a TV station so I'm always focusing on long-term partnership and I want to build something for and I'm talking about years yeah I'm not talking about weeks or days so if I want to start a partnership it's minimum for me uh a year or two years so and and for me it's some kind of trust of both sides and then it will be a success yeah because then it's the engagement so thank you and I mean it most sincerely for being a

guest now before we wrap up we have a couple of questions that we ask every one of our guests because by and large people get into the games industry because they like games and so we've got a couple of questions that we've been asking every single one of our guests the first is what's your favorite game of all time and the second one is and what's obsessing you what are you playing right now favorite game of all time I have two I have to say so one is Super Mario Land excellent excellent choice Super Mario Land on the Game Boy it's it's it's my favorite game of all time and the second one is Win Commander at PC so the first bring Commander one so which was a great title that I really enjoyed um during the 90s and I'm still yeah somehow addicted uh to to these kind of games and I have to say um still these days I'm played uh play all School

Game Boy games and uh yeah really like them still the actual title I'm playing where I'm addicted to is uh Mario Kart at the switch which is also some kind of older title but it's super entertaining to beat device thank you so much it has been an absolute pleasure speaking to you I think there's a a huge amount that we can take away from that and um at some point soon we'll have to ask you back and find out more about the the long-term Partnerships and and how those are progressing wouldn't you agree Peggy I was thinking the same thing I think there's just like a checklist of how do I go about Partnerships because you've proven through what you've been telling us you know how important that is you can extend your sphere of if you want to call it influence or or what have you for your game and then you can also go to other platforms I mean what you're doing in TV and how that's working together tons of learnings there Toby so we'll not let you get away that quickly and

for today thank you as well because a lot of actionable advice in there which we love to share with our audience as well so thanks again yeah thank you also for having me this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market and all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through thepocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz forward slash podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts

on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on thepocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the puppygamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian baglo I'm Peggy Ann saltz and that's a wrap until next week foreign