Stash Special: loyalty programs, well-made web shops, frictionless user experience

um but uh what we would do is we would take that 20% and we would average it out across but implement it in a series of different discounts you know time-based ones loyalty programs where you get free benefits and you achieve certain tiers and then you get an average discount you get access to free content you know you you have like spend incentives to you know reach a certain objective then you get access to all of this you know um kind of like exclusive content and this is no [ __ ] gaming podcast two and a half gamers sharing actionable insights dropping Knowledge from our day-to-day user acquisition game design and AD monetization jobs we are definitely not discussing the latest industry news but having so much fun let's not forget this is a 400 a.m. conference discussion Vibe so let's not take it too seriously okay welcome everybody uh welcome to this special episode again special episode we have a lot of to uh my name is mat lerich I'm Felix braberg and I'm and we are your

hosts for today and we have two special guests we are joined by Justin Khan and Archie Stonehill from stash hello hey guys welcome to the podcast can you can you give us a brief introduction of yourself and uh maybe about company you work at and uh we can we can take it from there absolutely um J let's let's start with you yeah let's start with you okay okay I'll go first uh so I'm Justin Khan uh co-founder of stash and I've been in the games industry for a while uh previously I was one of the co-founders of twitch and uh now we're back with uh stash which is a gaming payments platform and um here with my co colleague Archie nice yeah have to follow that is tough I did not

been in the games industry for less of a while than just in um and uh yeah I had a product at stash and before that I was an investor at a fund called makers fund where I invested in games companies exclusively so maybe before we start um I know I think uh we saw you Justin with uh with your previous uh company fractal like what can you tell us a little bit more about the the pivot from from there to where you are at the moment it's really interesting uh interesting situation yeah so so um about two and a half years ago started this company called fractal uh which was building infrastructure for web 3 game companies there's a lot of Buzz around people who were trying to create um web three games and one of the things I really believed in was that more and more people around the world were spending more money in games and um that that stuff that they would buy inside of games you know they would treat as real kind of went back to

my own experience like starting playing games over 20 years ago online when I was I was a big Ultima Online fan and um when I was playing ultim online I remember like there was they did not put enough space for houses in the land right so like all every space that possibly could have a house was was taken and then eventually like people were selling trading these houses on eBay and like I was a high school student I couldn't afford it but I remember thinking like wow it's crazy that people really value the things that are in this virtual world you know because has such high meaning to them because they put so much time and effort into these games and so when I saw kind of um games being built around nfts and web 3 I was like that's interesting I think there's something to this idea that people are really believing that the these assets they buy and earn in game are are um have like a durable tangible value um unfortunately the we so we launched this infrastructure to help web 3 games

uh with their nfts and and a Marketplace and um the market of games has like not matured very much it's still pretty early so um these games like didn't kind of come out to the point where they have like a massive amount of adoption like uh um you know normal games have and um so after kind of searching around the industry and trying to figure out okay is there some angle we can take like we really uh listening to our customers you know game companies it became clear that what a lot of game companies wanted was help on the monetization side of their existing games that actually have tens of millions of players and so uh that's what we decided to do and we kind of uh turn the company into this new product stash which is a payments platform for um gaming companies to uh sell um you know their in inapp purchases um via web shops and so we we allow you to create we're kind of like Shopify for games we allow you to set up a storefront um

that's accessible on mobile or desktop so that you the you know end player can go and and buy stuff for the game on this web shop nice yeah this is a kind of an emergency pocast about the like latest Apple uh kind of payment guidelines and uh yeah I think uh you are actually quite good fit to discuss these uh these new payment processes options and and everything that it's available pH can you can you give us a little bit like a background like what happened actually from the last time yeah changed quite a lot yeah so yeah so let me set this up so uh Apple has for the first time uh allowed developers to choose to either remain uh on their current payment conditions in the EU which is essentially yeah 30% I AP take rat or Allowed by the way yeah of for yeah

exactly yeah I mean they're not doing this out of the goodness of their heart they're doing it because their arm is you know Twisted behind their head like back right but uh now developers in the EU have a choice between either the normal 30% take rate or adopting yeah the new capabilities and the new capabilities are as I quote uh where developers have additional distribution and payment processing options available Apple will apply reduced commission an optional payment processing fee and a fee for first annual installs above 1 million in the last 12 months where have we heard this thing before yeah man like they're put unity all over ises huh yeah it's already cost a you know a billion dollar company the CEO Place yeah but maybe uh maybe we can switch it over to you guys here like maybe in your own words Archie and Justin like what has Apple done why have they done it and what is the impact for

Publishers on the App Store sure you want to jump in yeah so as you say Apple has been forced it was designated a gatekeeper under the digital markets act um maybe just talking about the digital markets act uh for a second it's a fairly kind of groundbreaking piece of regulation for a few reasons um one of them is that its objective is not the typical objective you see in antitrust action normally antitrust action is is to protect consumers from monopolistic pricing and stuff like that the digital Market Act is actually oriented towards competitors of um platform businesses so it's meant to Foster an environment that enables competitors to have a fair shot at challenging what they call Gatekeepers in various ways in digital markets that has a bunch of exciting implications because it's been very hard to kind of pin these big Tech guys down on um antitrust stuff because they give away all their stuff for free so hard to prove consumer harm when you know you're giving things away for free but um as

you say there there were kind of a couple Provisions that App Stores um uh like had to comply by the deadline for that is March 6 um and uh you know if you think about the App Store ecosystem iOS owns the device Apple owns the device the operating system um the app store and then the payments layer after that um what it can't do now according to digital markets is use any one of those control points most particularly the operating system and the hardware to force uh to to to like you know destroy competition Downstream um in theory Apple's first Salvo at complying with that is are these new policies you say they offered basically a choice between it's a bit like setting up a choice um and then being able to say to the EU hey look they have two options it's not awful yeah of course it sounds really fair is it yeah of course it depends if you think a choice I mean you know it has to be a fair reasonable and non-discriminatory choice that is the terms of the legislation

um I don't want to comment too much on you know I think it's no surprise that apple is resisting this tooth and nail of course like it's their own money come on yeah yeah yeah so there are kind of three ways in which uh like apple could be opening up so one is um allowing alternative app distribution as you said um another one is um you know payments uh allowing alternative monetization channels in apps um and then the third is Nona uh monetization inste it'll give up on payments the last I think that's what it really cares about is the payments volume for apps in the App Store it is being forced to allow side loing and to be fair there are some viable products now with their side loing infrastructure even if they do come with that alternative abore um you know install fee by the way worth noting it's only installs above a million on the App Store if you're Distributing outside of the App Store you pay that core technology fee on the first install um so you know that is uh makes it very t for any smaller company to do this um

and then out of app uh payments I think has been the most immediate opportunity for a while and a lot of the you know not only EU action but American Court action has opened that up even more um yeah sorry just to summarize this because I think people maybe miss this kind of important thing so this only applies to EU and EU States and the US one is just the one with like you are allowed to put that web link into your app that we regulate and approve blah blah blah and all these things there there not even this like new rtime fee options for us there yet it's not there yet yeah it's not there yet so this is just for EU stuff and the US stuff is just that web link that you can get approved by Apple to let the traffic out of your app into the web store and that's it yep yeah that's right so the yeah the US regulation is now or the US choice that you have is like you can link out to an alternate payments um provider and then will take instead of 30% Apple takes

27% and then it requires in case of payment in like in is very important if it's not a payment just like hello this is a web store we leave you to it I yeah but you still don't understand like if you are if you already click on that link you have a parameter in that URL that kind of stays with you unless you either the session ends yeah unless session ends and they have a claim on any Revenue made seven days after that P that click however seven days after the click so you have you have the you have the win like s day win attribution window get rewarded for this reward after seven days of going to the web store yeah I can decide it already in my head you also have to buy for entitlement it's a I don't think I think there's very few cases where click out where the linkout makes sense but having said that there were two parts of the Court ruling the linkout one has got the most attention the other one was

regarding Communications about alternative payment methods previously uh develop a guidelines 3.3 banned uh developers from any communication so that is so now you can do a lot more to tell players about your web store and communicate with them which is pretty powerful actually that's probably the most exciting thing I think that's come out in the last couple days is the communication stuff yeah okay so potentially you can just communicate hey we have a web you don't put link into that uh message and then like y okay but then you still you you can communicate so you still need to pay 27% but how how they can track that no it's only if you out you actually need to still be a bit careful but roio just launched a popup in their App Store in their apps where they say join the roio club on their website and that then leads to a web store so Rio is already taking advantage of this yeah because this was always like my point even like the previous one like the point is just to move the

payers to the web store it's like one time kind of movement that cannot be done stopped by Apple like if they're already there like they can't stop them from paying in the web store if there's better prices there yeah yeah so basically like developers are going to be highly incentivized especially if they do customer segmentation to figure out who their best customers are to go and move those customers to their web store and they you know they can do that through we think of like many different mechanisms you know they can do it by creating these clubs or memberships or discounts or you know even just reaching out and telling the users on a individual basis through different channels communication channels about their web store so I think think about the uh you can have Also let's say your own community and then you can push in your community or web shop like hey we have the web shop and like there you go you have already like your best community

there uh yeah of course but again it's it's a matter of like you know kpis like if most of your di is sitting on the mobile store and they're not in the Discord Reddit whatever somewhere else like you need to get those pairs off there that's well most of the payer da then in that case yeah yeah yeah this would not be viable if it weren't for whale monetization in freeo playay games and in fact like when we set up stash this is already a market that's huge right so Playa is doing 25% of its revenue for through direct consumer channels namely web huge is doing about 10% of its Revenue Plum is doing 30% direct consumer like these guys are already doing this I've been surprised by how much the big guys are already doing this and just keeping quiet about it yeah how do they do it because they're you know Social Casino mainly companies which have very high LTV how do they like how do they do it physically how do they get them out of the store so they they move their top 0.5% by like you know very high touch account management Services uh a really good reward program that plka has that

incentivizes use of these channels like you're never going to be able to offer any more convenient experience going through the web store a direct consumer channel so you got to offer a better experience and that's what we do um but if you do that players love it okay because yeah Social Casino already like have these VIP programs for years right like they know how to identify their high high Target players and they treat them well let's call it that way they treat them well it's happening also like in strategy games and other Dr yeah strategy exactly strategy games anything that's crossplatform like scopely has had real success doing this so fun plus there's a bunch of companies even outside casino roio is pushing it hard it'll be see It'll be very interesting to see how Angry Birds does with this I'm curious if that works yeah okay sorry so I mean we we had this uh but we can we can get back to to actually the the Apple kind of fun

stuff that happened last week because we played around the the Apple calculator let let me get it up here here we go let me open it let open up I also read something about like this uh absolutely enormous fee for Instagram WhatsApp and something else like millions of of of dollars per month not even per year or whatever was that let me let me talk it through because you guys are the experts right so I inputed the download and install iip numbers for Activision Kings U mobile iOS platform so basically this is how much last year in 2023 they earn in iaps in the EU uh from these many installs and it's confusing because this is monthly this is yearly so I guess they're trying to confuse you already here right but are you guys the alternative app marketplaces or alternative payment processors no so there's kind of three different things you can do so okay um so the first is you could pay uh via

your um by via Apple AP right that's that's the status quo the second is you can adopt the alternative terms and then the third is you can monetize those players in other places like the web so we are that third category primarily I mean you know obviously we are looking at side loading very closely and I think as this evolves we'll figure it out what Apple's policy does is make it so that you have to go all the way when you adopt their alternative terms um so you have to choose between the status quo and can you go back afterwards it doesn't that I actually don't haven't gotten Clarity on that it not totally clear depending on what you do under the context of the alternative terms because the alternative terms include both alternative payments providers linkout in Europe is under the alternative terms and alternative app distribution also does it say if if I can have one game on one terms one term and then the the other game on on the

alternative um so long as they are truly different games yes um okay what does it mean to different games in that case I mean that's quite confusing the App Store review process okay okay okay good interesting that would get a different ID Okay cool so what do I put here in the number like what what what what is it what do you guys charge like so we just get an understanding here or this calculator is it pointless or is it actually like Worth to play around with no it's useful I mean I think if you click that drop down uh you get a set of options in the top rate um so it's a balance of what you're doing and how successful you're doing it so but actually the thresholds are pretty easy so if you adop the alternative terms then you have to pay a fee that cost consists of two parts one is a reduced commission to Apple on App Store installs um you pay no Commission on installs outside the app store and then on all installs apart from your first million via the

App Store you pay your 50 Cent fee so you have two types of distribution for apps you have the app store on those you don't pay the install fee until the millionth and first install but on all revenue you pay 20% through app out of app installs you pay 50% 50 Cent fee from day one um now the the the kind of the upshot is if your annual monetization per user is greater than5 then this makes economic sense for you because you know the 10% difference in the cons in the commission even if you don't go out through out of app out of App Store distribution then you just switch to a 50 Cent install above a million and a 20% fee so um what that means is that like the 20% fee versus 30% fee difference I that 10% so long as that's greater than or equal to 50 cents then you're saving money by going for that uh it's very confusing but um if you if you absolutely confusing yeah

yeah deliberately so I would say but one one important tidbit do I get that right that you also pay the 50 Cent around time whatever fee [ __ ] by updates to the app uh yes but you pay it once a year that's why I would say yes also once a year only so one install fee and one update fee because you know how how many updates these games have like literally every two weeks or something install and update updates count as installed for existing apps basically so you have to think about it like a recurring annual fee but every update no just you only pay it once per per device per year okay so the same yeah if you if you make 10 updates then it's still the one install basically yeah but again you know you're saving a 10% you're saving 10% on your app store revenue and paying no app store fees out of app out of that so all the

calculator scare us yeah it makes sense if you're Revenue right per user per install is above $ five doll or five euro so high high volume low LT games are pretty much like out of this debate immediately they just exited the door yeah pretty much in that case yeah low low the high I TV as like strategy games but it's like it comes down comes down again to what we discussed just now like strategy games midcore games Social Casino you mean like whole Japanese Market okay fair enough yes if you have a game where you're making especially if you can Target the users I mean if if you're making you know $25 per install which isn't crazy for a lot of games this saves you a lot of money I mean it can basically Harve your fees in many cases depending on the yeah but it's you know what it's not like your CPI is 50 cents as well that's the

thing no you make you make $25 but you you also pay like 20 30 sometimes you know getting you know you you you're getting more than 10% additional Revenue without doing anything other than switching terms true that's fair point but then like I know Apple will do everything they they can just to to make this as scary as possible by the way what's what's uh you know who's where's the guarantee that they can just raise the fee I mean the 50 cents one or like you know you know where I'm heading here they could at some point it's fair um yeah they could I mean that's that's the fair right like like once they see for instance just as you said like oh this works great for High TV games then like half the market of High TV games switch is there Apple sees like whatever 5 billion less revenue and they're like oh by the way we're increasing the fee from 50 cents to $2 or whatever match your LTV kind of threshold hey imagine

having this conversation five years ago and saying Hey what if they get rid of the idfa like yeah no way they're not gonna they're not going to do that of course oh my God okay but now uh so how much how much um should companies like expect to pay if it you know if they go to like external Partners kind of like anything also does it affect like volumes uh and uh stuff like that Justin do you want to take that or St oh go ahead so it does depend on volume and it depends on where your users are and how they're paying um so fortunately for us like whales tend to pay with lowcost methods uh so our model at stash is well at the at the beginning to be honest right now we're in a kind of like uh we're trying to innovate we're trying to partner with really good devs and so we're not charging um a commission but

you have a cost to each transaction um and so that cost averages out at $5 five sorry 5% on a transaction um that's probably high for for who your users typically are if your users are kind of using carrier billing Network carrier billing in Africa you're going to pay a lot more if they're just using credit cards in America you're going to pay a lot less so you can expect to pay low single digit percents um but one thing I'll note and this is quite hard to explain but when people think about how much money Apple takes versus their revenue they think about it often very wrong because Apple takes 30% developers get 70% um and so developers think that uh Apple gets 30% of their revenue but their revenue isn't the 100% it's the 70% so the ratio isn't 10 to3 developer to Apple it's 7 to3 so in fact um the additional Revenue that you get from

Apple is 43% of net revenue I.E your developer Revenue not 30% so there's always a lot more spend there than um developers think I don't know if that confused everyone a little bit it was like yeah I can't even spell that what all that's to say that the actual gross revenue figure is much higher than you might imagine yeah still not helping AR she yeah exactly but for the for yeah but for those 5% right so if a developer chooses to work with you what do you guys do are you guys a merchant a record like what how does it work uh yeah all of that we we view our role as to be like both the kind of technical payment provider so doing Merion record compliance tax collection Etc so you don't even have to worry about that and to enable the best possible direct consumer strategy with

you know lots of e-commerce uh kind of techniques design um additional features that we can go into if you're interested in but yes more definitely I've seen some offer segmentation whatever discount price policy there so really curious about that yeah yeah so the thinking is that like you know games for the entire industry's history have been intermediated by platforms first the consoles and then you know mobile and steam and so they've never operated direct consumer channels successfully with a couple exceptions like Riot and Roblox and um epic and so you know we don't really have these expertise in the games industry on how to do this we've relied really heavily on you know these platforms to do this uh and so we have been you know bringing in expertise from other industries that have done this very successfully um there's a couple I can plag so for example Hospitality like hotels and Airlines have maintained very successful direct consumer strategies um and they're quite similar to games

because the additional cost to them per user or per customer isn't actually meaningful so it doesn't cost you anymore if you're a hotel to have someone stay in a room if you're not at full occupancy the real cost is operating the hotel it doesn't matter if you have 99 out of 100 guests or 100 out of 100 guests same with an airline the cost is flying the flight not per passenger so that's why they're able to offer very generous rewards programs and loyalty programs even in games it's even better right there's no inal cost to another skin so think about all the benefits you can offer a user to come to your direct consumer Channel um you know with additional exclusive content cosmatics and stuff like that so there's really exciting stuff we're looking at designing there that's similar to hotel and rewards we're also looking at stuff like fashion which successfully went from uh intermediated to direct consumer online and then real money is the other big one casin know but this doesn't apply to power progression economies does it well you can tie it I think it's best done when you tie it into your um

it depends which Market if you're in to pay to win one it may right like I mean when you into game sign right we've got so a lot of what we do is trying to take your objectives for your e-commerce Channel and translate them into the best possible implementation and most wait wait if you didn't know like there's no [ __ ] that's like it's very vague that's very vague I know no I that's very you show us something maybe that's [ __ ] like what it sounds great say you operate like a channel you operate a game that has um and you want to like drive a direct consumer like Channel sorry there you go you know that's the bu that's you know that's the warning the warning that was a warning right there it's exactly yeah yeah know we Sorry

interrupt it no [ __ ] police no [ __ ] police ring the door all right sorry yeah go go on go on so say you're operating a direct consumer Channel and you want to you want to incentivize users to go there you can essentially like be like hey stash we want to offer you know a 20% benefit to users for using our Channel and what you could do is just offer a flat 20% discount on your website that's fine it's not super engaging or compelling or or well kind of well well implemented um but uh what we would do is we would take that 20% and we would average it out across but implement it in a series of different discounts you know time based ones loyalty programs where you get free benefits and you achieve certain tiers and then you get an average discount you get access to free content you know you you have like spend incentives to you know reach a certain objective then you get access to all of this you know um kind of like exclusive content and you know that would be done in a way that drives engagement rewards loyalty

increases retention just boosts your overall spend in LTV but it would all net out at um a at a 20% discount so you would still be able to have control over the overall kind of like exchange of value trying to get people to use this uh Web Channel but we would we would kind of handle the best possible implementation both from a kind of architecting the system perspective and in terms of implementing it in terms of a design perspective can you show us an example before yakob goes in this sounds like but if you stay tuned you will see some okay good because that sounds like special for system to me and also like a lot lot of work and resources yeah I would say we're investing really heavily in our initial customers there's a version of that I think that can be templatized but you know uh this is best done when in coordination with a game Economist right and and thinking through what are the kind of perceived value you can give

away so Cosmetics or that that actually don't cannibalize your spent and that's something we very close to okay sounds like you also need to have someone in the house in terms of either economy or game design or something yeah yeah we have some you know kind of advis stuff there but I think ideally okay problem with economists is they're fairly specific to game genres and types and so hiring one person there I think is sub optimal versus having a network of people who can advise us but truthfully I actually think our job is more about the implementation of the incentive and that a lot of this work would be done based on your knowledge of your own game economy it's the same thing like you know it's systems like game economy like the numbers game won't help you if you don't have the boxes to you know put the numbers in it's like usual thing by the way there's a bunch more like I can go into them but I don't want to drain on no no no like we we okay so

that was really really interesting and so as what can I do in terms of like the marketing perspective for with the web shops and like how how you think about it and how you can help companies actually drive let's say more traffic to to the web shops uh yeah so we we're working closely with some of the mmps on thinking about like interesting ways to do crop ma attribution like one of the best things about web and having a web shop is you get your you get ownership of your own your own players right like that actually becomes your customer when you're interacting with you directly um and so thinking through what we can do to either use web inventory to drive conversion to webop or um you know how you can uh like I think that using this as a way to acquire new users without launching a crossplatform product is something that's probably a secondary challenge right I think that there's some BS I can Vi about like creating lookalike audiences that you would

definitely call me out on here but I think yeah we yeah we just discuss this before we started like okay because yeah iob ask me okay what's the advantage to use email I'm it's like yeah you can yeah you can use lookalikes you can use you can build audiences you can then retarget them and get them to we but then like in overall like marketing kind of point of view you talk to your customer like that's the direct contact you know you can use it with e like emails whatever it's just yeah that's the way you can you can talk to your player which is really powerful it doesn't need to be UA or remarketing it can be for free as like you can leave leverage yeah email marketing whatever else and it's email like direct email permissions so you're not even kind of targeting them exactly and retargeting is massive right I mean yeah yeah um yeah yeah that makes all yeah that's that's what we touched a little bit like you build audience on Facebook Google re

retargeting whatever platforms Tik Tok and then yeah you just send them to web shops because yeah hey hello we didn't see you for a while this is a great special offer we have on our web shop and we just you don't want to pay 30% to Apple let's go give you something for free I think that you look at over all the web shops that are out there today they're essentially that they're like hey guys we all know what's going on exactly like that 10% and and they're successful amazingly so I'm like well what actually happens when you productize these really well in Ace way yeah well that that would be like uh that would make you different from from all the other other guys yeah and the other thing I'll add is that like we don't view the web environment as just a shop right so I think that part of this like we are not a web shop business we're we're a direct consumer business and a lot of that is about enabling experiences that are you know really valuable for players and that they enjoy

and enhance their experience of the game and that varies a lot by the type of game but you know if you're a competitive multiplayer game I think or kind of like you know MMO I think this web environment would be somewhere you have like a social discovery tool where players can find people to do raids with or find competitive uh teams they want to play with and um you know like find experiences that are really enriching for the game bring traffic to the web environment um tiing very naturally with your game a pretty low effort to build um but broaden out the ways in which your players interact directly with you so low effort to build like how quickly I can build a web shop or yeah whatever I mean un complicated so we do the complicated St forix for you all right so okay hey Archie I need the web shop and you say look I will give you a call in seven days they'll be 5% I'll call you in five days we could do it in five days but it would be so I would say we would need to do I think it would be much better to do it and we

only want to do things that are kind of like wellmade and serious efforts at doing this in a premium way that you know okay in that qu in that case question like what's wellmade and how the well wellmade webshop look like well I can show you some of our marks if you yes yeah go yeah yeah yes than others uh supercell fairly well done from a ux perspective which many of them are but I don't think of them are like e-commerce experiences compare them to you bu like you f I think actually was it you on LinkedIn that mentioned like I think two years ago the the buz word was web free last last year was Ai and then now it's web shops yeah amazingly and that's I mean that's like that's it basically and it really kind of gets to the like different segment of like this online Market because then you need to have the web shop I guess visible for for

everybody uh you need to have pretty good search engine optimization and on page SEO then maybe some link building and then obviously like conversion optimization on on that web shop like you know all of these things that kind of are still out there just on like landing pages and just outside of gaming basically just now coming back to gaming uh just I mean that's just interesting just by the way by the way from when I when I joined stash we spoke about with Justin like the team we've built is a bunch of Engineers who have spent a lot of time uh you know working on broader web development and and I think that that shows in the quality of product we build our linking experience for our demo is I think the smoothest you could imagine there's no entry of Account Details and then similarly you know when you arrive at the page for so many web shops you're blocked from seeing anything with a motal window until you enter your username or Account Details like that's so sub optimal right so our is fully designed like you know

the best possible e-commerce one to you know get users bought into the experience show them what they're gaining then try and get their email but if not having a frictionless way for them to link their accounts I think this stuff is not um it's it's like you know not easy but it's um a set of expertise that like exists right they exist yet you can borrow them from anywhere online marketing people like that's that's what I've done like 13 years ago before before I I joined the gaming industry it's like yeah it's it's there like people do do this uh for a living oh absolutely interesting yeah your former life yeah yeah yeah nice uh any anything else that we we need to cover guys uh that you have on on your mind that we should definitely definitely touch I would have yeah as usual asual I would question regarding the the Loyalty

program because this pretty much like like out right out of my mind like the question is like is loyalty within the stash ecosystem or loyalty within the game ecosystem or like if you can like elaborate a little bit on that one because I'm just kind of yeah sounds to me a little bit like overall or you know these things which I don't think so it is yeah no no no so to be clear this this is enabling you uh this is not us kind of trying to try to be like um stash ecosystem this is like your branded loyalty program M yeah philosophically you know we think about stash as our job is to help the game developers and it's a white label experience you know I don't think game developers want to trade one platform dis intermediation interation for like stash is intermediation you know like so we're successful if we can help people you know with a Shopify like experience where the the brand the game owns the experience right all the way to the customer and they own the customer relationship and I think that's what games want you know you don't want to charge 30%

then well not now not now stage two exactly we operate in a competitive market and so you know if you want to switch from stash in two years time you're going to be able to do that and and that's the core difference right um I mean we're confident you won't because we'll be so excellent and give you a experience you love but um you know that's on us to do yeah yeah yeah that's that's your job okay fair fair enough uh right good and on that bombshell I think it's time to end thank you so much for joining us yeah do you want to take us home a yeah thank you very much for coming please subscribe uh we will put um Justin and Archie your um information in the show notes and also link to stash so guys if you want to reach out definitely reach out and thank you see you next time cheers thanks guys see you

thank you thank you [Music] [Applause] [Music]