Rise and Play’s Sophie Vo On The Skill You Can’t Overlook When Scaling Your Studio

[Music] hello world welcome to the Pocket Gamer podcast with your hosts me Brian Bago and our lioness of lifetime value Miss Peggy and Sals hello Peggy lovely to see you lovely to see you Bri I said lovely in your in your way Brian um that's the best one yet I have to say because I do have quite a number of UA events behind me and I'm so excited but I'm also excited because we have a different type of show you know rely on me to find uh a broad spectrum of of eclectic guests I think is what we'll say here because um I connected with our guest on LinkedIn knew her before but I've been watching her literally rise and shine and she is the host and founder of rise and play so what could be better and we're going to look at the human side of games

development with someone who is yeah she brings her full self to work I have to say she's passionate about transforming leadership in game studios and her expertise again that rise and shine and that rise and play well I think her expertise shines when discussing how we really need to nurture and unlock the potential of individuals and teams in these creative and very yeah Tech driven but yet very human environments she's a force I'm prepared to be moved Sophie Welcome to our show and I don't think I overpromise this time thank you Brian piggy H it's pleasure to be on the other side of a microphone because as you know as well I'm actually interviewing a lot of people so I I can sit back and relax today and thanks a lot for the warm intro figgy um put a big smile on my face and set me in the mood of a sh ing

what I can share today it's lovely to have you here and it's it's such a a crucial issue in the interest of disclosure I have to say my my partner is is a coach and a facilitator does not do work in games but has kind of listened with horror and bewilderment as I try to explain to her what's happening across the games industry in the last sort of 12 to 18 months um so it's very timely and I think we can uh we can all agree that it's a a a fairly unprecedented time globally but the games industry has been has been struggling a bit so can you tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself first of all um you come from a game development background but then you've kind of pivoted to focus on leadership and you know that the human side of things so can you give us a little flavor of your journey so I count uh this year 16 years of experience in uh game development so I played several roles I was in production side I was in product management uh Studio manag management so stepping up in leadership

RS multiple companies as well so I spent some time my very first company was Game Loft at a pick time where mobile games premium mobile games were the thing then moving to freeto playay I spent some time at wuga in Berlin Germany uh spent few years also at roio BM Studio under vodu first casual Studio spent some time at PlayStation with a studio acquired uh now called neon Koy used to be Savage games so so uh through that Journey little by little moving from uh product management production so my motivation as in games has always been how can we create experiences that Mark players that impact the life of players something you play you experience an emotion you feel a realization and I understood through the Journey but while creating games also the teams that were building those games were going through also their own journey and experience that is very emotional

transformative and I found my passion over time is was being more uh into building teams unlocking the full potential of humans and I I get deeper just deeper you know I have the analogy of the onion layers so I get deeper like and peeling the onion layers to find what was my core and it has always been about people more than games and I realized that I would have uh much more value to bring focusing and becoming more expertise uh knowledge in Ides from uh talking to a lot of other Executives entrepreneurs and uh giving it back through my practice through my learning through uh my listening and that's where I decided to Pivot uh since end of last year around leadership in games because I saw a gap there as well important pivot at this time I'd like to follow up on your question actually Brian you know it's the question of like why now and the pivot because are they connected because of course the last months in

gaming the layoffs the um and what happens when things shift is that people can also change and not always for the better so maybe there's some sort of connection there between focusing on leadership at a time when yeah leadership and teams need that support so yes the timing also play to part here because uh you know companies we all put our best when times are good so everyone can say we have a company with those values transparency we care for people and I often see and say you sh you show your true character in times of Crisis and it's not pretty character sometimes that come out when especially last year much more pressure on uh generating revenues uh profits uh dealing with layoff which is the reality of you know operations but the way it was hand was

uh there were many cases of companies that have not handled well externally internally I know this also from talking to team so uh from my journey and it was not just last year because also I've been in organization where I was always like at some point a bit like found a ceiling in in that growth of leadership what is blocking the preventing the company to take responsibility walk the talk you know when we have a nice PR and values on the world why the compan is not practicing those values and I realize it comes down to leaders of the company and leaders individual people who uh are in the position to lead others but uh where it fails most of the time is not being able to lead themselves so what I mean by that the Gap I've seen is you know I've been in the position as well with a lot of pressure building a team delivering I had to close studio um and you can't blame anyone in that moment

you have to be with yourself take responsibility uh uncomfortable feelings of fear uh identity uh and ego let's let's put it straight ego and when you are actually surrendering to your fears and ego this is where a bad decision happen because you're not doing it out of uh you know awareness uh you're doing you know out of ego and so in my work of leadership it's a lot to about self leadership that's really the real work bringing self- awareness that's the first step and also as you get awareness how are you taking responsibility you know are you leading out of fears or are you leading out of Consciousness so that was a lot of piece of my work with u rise in place about conscious leadership so it's about getting awareness and I I have seen that transformation in some leaders organization I've been part of where I have been doing internal coaching or now I do external coaching as an intervention just creating the awareness it's it's a game changer for people

because they realize maybe they don't want to take that Ro maybe they don't want to be the CEO of that company maybe they don't want to take responsibility maybe they hate conflict and they don't want to give that bad news to people but guess what they accepted the roow of responsibility where they have to do it so it's overcoming that discomfort and taking responsibility so a lot of work around leadership is taking responsibity and self- awareness I could not agree more it's one of the things that um we we kind of hear about from a lot of the guests on our show we write about it um on the website um you know so many studios are facing different issues these days and the challenges facing the games industry just kind of grow and evolve at at a huge rate so it can be an incredibly challenging sector but I I have to ask and pick up on on those uh those insights because in a lot of my experience the people who are in leadership positions are there because of um time spent or because it's their

company or because you know they they have the technical skills but speaking from a UK perspective we are very poor at providing any sort of leadership you know training or or giving uh our leaders the skills that they need so what are you seeing out there what are the kind of the most common leadership challenges you run across when it comes to the games world I always uh especially I would say team of co-founder or team of leaders first is really alignment right Clarity so that's one of the challenges when you have multiple leaders that have to work together if it can't have a good dialog communication uh you have typically a company that have free Visions I've seen that multiple times and so it's back to awareness there's not the system in place or the tools in place the communication the forums or even the trust uh to be able to have that conversation like are we still the line and if we're not what are we doing already so um I'd say that's the first

one where there's a lot of assumption around you know what it is to lead like okay I have the technical skills I'm in charge and as long as I keep doing what I do it's uh all good but it's a very different type of work where it's very human oriented because you your goal is to work well with your team and create the best condition in your organization environment culture values systems for team to execute provision uh that doesn't mean that you have to do everything yourself far from it so uh that leads to the Second Challenge I see it's a misunderstanding of the role and responsivity it's confused with being a director or you know a principle an expert in doing something and being a leader you are your value is in what is what others around you produce not what you produce yourself that's why it can be ego driven because if you're in that position to do more and shine you're in the wrong role because by Nature it's role where you serve them you serve the

interest of the company of the people for the company because the people are the key the core of the company and if you're not dedicated to that you're in the wrong role so a lot of times so from my conversation with leaders I have them realize that's not the role they want to take and this is a hard realization because some they know after they they have to step out step out step away step down however they tell themselves a story but that's the most responsible thing to do so you've worked with a lot of companies and also to Brian's point it's not even just necessarily that we lack leadership training but I've spoken with so many people in studios it was like you know I'm the one here so I become you know I know the most so they just you know they just say I'm the CFO or I'm the head of product so people sort of not only don't they trained but they're sort of moved into roles that they maybe didn't want in in the first place what are you seeing in the most

surprising examples maybe that you've that you've identified in game studios where there's a real a real Gap um between what management needs to be doing and what leaders are perhaps prepared to do back to the uh last Point managers and leaders it's actually two different roles and that's very confused it's not because you're a manager but you're leader so maybe I go back to the definition here because I spent some time in Workshop to even explain it to bring awareness manager they are managing system they are managing a status quo they are planning budgeting controlling resources whatever the resources of an organization are so you can say somebody technically skilled is a good manager because you understand the field you can manage resources you optimize you optimize the outcome of what exists leaders leadership is Agents of change so in games we are in a permanent change and transition because things are moving so fast so we are uh

actually in in a position of management we must learn how to lead through change because it's there and through change uh it's different skills that are needed it's influencing skills communication skills building a vision right so when you have a status quo and you're moving to somewhere else you need to build the vision of a future and be able to communicate it and Rally or GA people to move in the same direction together in in a very agile way that's what leadership is but then the the skills like I said is influencing communicating um uniting and it's very different skills than controlling planning budgeting and influ influencing people ask me okay how do you influence them this is where it's very I would say contextual back to the culture of your company You influen by convincing you influence by creating transparency in your system You influen by showing up who you are building trust and so you

have to understand others how humans work how humans work together collaborate so you can influence effectively but that's where the main misunderstanding is and I see an big emphasis is in managing we manage people you know we create somewhere a vision we write in the documentation or we put a new goal and then we hope everything goes for the best but leadership it's a lot of spending time in influencing Gathering you know uh making people move in the same direction you are influencing um leadership leadership styles what are you seeing when you address these gaps I mean what have you observed what are the biggest fears or the biggest egos at play here I'm reflecting on a workshop actually I gave also uh this year around the different leadership style uh the thing is we pick up on what we see right so like we call it models

and so on and so I also saw more in Industry that's where the conversation of representation of different style of leadership is so important we see one that is I don't know if it's proven but it's one that has been a lot out there is authoritative leadership style right you force you really bullying for we hear the story around mask uh you see also big leaders that we call leaders in the history I I was giving the job like for French like Napoleon like it's still very ingrain in French culture that kind of a royal king that is on the pedestal and then you know like the sdes of everything so we have bad models out there it's just it's just off with what people expect because leaders is always a response to what people expect and what motivates them right so it just doesn't work that much it works for some company because the end of the day to SL is moving a lot of people and not everyone uh but uh when I look at games

there's a strong desire for teams people to um you know feel inspired at work feel safe and it's very valid right it's not for us to decide no we are not going to create safety here is like if people need this to be motivated you need to uh adapt your leadership style with what people need they need Clarity of course they need uh you know trust transparency and that means that for leaders as well to Define a style that is working towards that so when you create transparency this is a very difficult one because you will be exposed so what is in the way for most leaders is fear it's fear what if other sees that I fail what if other sees that I'm not good enough so this there's always a fear in leaders and you see the ones who are not conscious they do everything to protect themselves from the situation and the ones who are more conscious they just dive in and they say I'm going to open feedback here I'm going to put ask me anything you ask all the question I will

answer in public because I'm not afraid to take responsibility but the ones who are not they're more afraid to you appear looking bad and they don't do and then it creates more distrust you're you're absolutely right the the good leaders are the ones who not necessarily embrace it but get used to the discomfort and get you know can sit with it and and again the point about putting your people first is is absolutely you know bang on it's the happiest teams are the ones where they feel safe you know not just protected but encouraged and empowered so let let's kind of flip that and bring it back to you so how do you when you find those situations how do you go in and how do you begin the whole coaching process to try and you know make turn them into agents of change so I come from product background so I approached like a product right so the same steps are analysis so when I was in companies also in some like my previous uh uh one from Studio acquired by PlayStation it was a a period of

analysis so I sit down with people I do have one onone with everyone listen I'm not here to uh give my message I'm just here to listen I collect I analyze qualitative feedback quantitative so I do also a survey Anonymous to collect all the data and I present this to us as a leadership team that's the result so whatever the goal we have we want we want people to perform this way we want people to trust it doesn't matter what we want to like we have to accept what it is today so I start with and then it's the reality check it's like why is this why do we have people who don't feel safe why do we have people who have no idea what they're supposed to do this week or you know this month well no one will take responsibility but us so we are have to start to work on that so then we identify what are the patterns so it's very methodical in the end no emotional strings it's not like okay we feel like it's this is no it's it's we have analyze we see the problems and how are we addressing as a leadership so lack of it what what does that mean so should we

start to do all hands maybe uh meetings where we present the strategy on the regular basis so everyone is aware and aligned with the vision of the direction we don't have safety why is this so when listening more to you people okay there not a safe environment you give feedback every time we give feedback it's push back or we gas lighted and why G who is G lighting is it the leaders okay then everyone in the leadership team we get training to know how to receive feedback so like then we address very methodically all the problem so that's how I I work and so people have who have worked with me have really appreciated my structure and my and because it's not opinion and so where it it is also works with the leaders it's um it's not a judgment from me I'm not coming here to say you were bad you were bad person it's just a result like are you taking responsibility with this Ro if you don't want then find some someone else to find this role and take that responsibility

but no one else will do this but you right so they can't get away from the conversation because it's everything is very logical so I use more logic and not make it about people but more the system what is the goal what are we trying to achieve and what solution are we taking you don't have a St no problem no judgment we go into training or you get a coach that's fantastic and and do you without naming names obviously do you have any examples where you've kind of you've had that breakthrough or youve youve found somebody that you've reached or or that's just given you Joy I think the biggest moment of joy for me in different uh I was in either in my studio I was building at vodu or even the previous one uh it's it's the Breakthrough when people have selfawareness and they they are finally removing that mask I can feel the freedom because they were running on a narrative for themsel I'm a high performer I'm perfect you know like there's also the perfectionism uh pattern and then you can see the pressure they

put on themselves and they can't get out of it but because I bu the trust environment safety of conversation when I see them I see them for the equality I see them also for you know the fears and they can be for he like it's uh it's liberating to not have to be that person so when they have redefined for themselves I don't have to be that perfect person and it's coming deep in childhood so some of them they have to complement you know whatever like therapy or introspection it never it never conscious it's not something like as an adult or emotionally mature person you have to be so when they realize it's not an identity I need to continue with it's not something that I am or I must be I can see and then they liberate themselves and that's where they have a more Balanced Life they spend less time at work so they help more the company and they are more you know relaxed this is the moment of Joy because I see see suffering I see suffering in most

leaders I work with they're not happy either and then everyone is suffering around what about the other direction because that's when people see that there's a problem they realize it and then they embrace it and as you said there's that there's that moment where they sort of let go and they understand that they don't have to be the company but then and I'm sure you've experienced it too Brian there are those out there who love the power that they have or if they don't love the power they have their VCS their Partners their investors are pushing them into that Persona what do you do in that case I mean how do you help or what's your advice to a studio where it's like how do you reign in the ego how do you reign in the investors how do you keep some human element and some control in this situation of course there will always be the external pressure wherever it comes from from VC's from expectation of society players

so VC is just an example where it's much more concrete because it's very monetary um and I've seen this is where the leadership is really at hard stress test because it takes courage to say no you know at the end of the day it's your company this is can push in a Direction but I've seen Founders exemplary to say I if you want me still around in the way I want to rent the company those are my terms so I always uh then work with religious you ask what are they afraid of if they say no what is it what is at stake for them is it like the fear that I don't know they will lose the companies but is that true will will it really happen so it's like going through the fears and having that fear talk to really get to the end of it is that true but most of the time I would say it's really Having the courage to stand for what you believe and say no and also accepting the worst outcome whatever the worst outcome is like if there's there's no point for me to continue this company

if I don't believe in what I'm doing I'm not doing it for the right reason so what's the point of all of this if you say yes to this is for whatever you know uh whatever the expectation because you're the wrong person to run it so maybe the good decision there is also get out of it you know so I always push the thinking further instead of staying in paralysis of the fear I will just keep doing what others expect of me uh but then they hit the wall right so usually it's when they really hit the hard warm that they come to realize something's not working but I'm more proactive there in the conversation to ask what will happen really if you you know allow yourself to say no or take a stand so it's again working on internal fears and I I wanted to say really that we all have our fears it's it's very human but the the where is unfair I always say unfair you are taking a position of responsibility and Leadership you will be more exposed with your fear so are you willing to go through that Journey where you have to

work on yourself to overcome your fears because that's the journey that's the right journey to go for to be conscious leader to do the right thing and not everyone is geared for that some some don't want to get get there and I understand but then don't take the RO but that's the most responsible thing to do this is fantastic Sophie and and I think one of the things that um we tend to find in the games world is that um the focus on the technical process the delivery the production is all consuming um and so the the human element is is lost so your approach on coming in and and kind of optimizing and improving the process and you know building upon that kind of technical expertise um will help the studio and obviously one of the outcomes could be you know helping them improve their games so do you have any sort of examples any sort of pieces of advice you can offer to uh our listeners about you know uh points where you've gone into studio

and and helped to achieve that success of course uh the angle of humans is not for the sake of you know focusing on human because something we forget humans that are the heart of Creation with no people you have no company you have no games that's that's just you know pretty straightforward so we tend to forget about that sometimes but I mean that's at the end of the day the cor so for me around the human approach is really about building the right system but make people um use the best of you know potential they have in themselves to create and I break it down really in in in few things so one is really again um the foundation is really the leadership like do are we clear about the direction where we're going why what's the vision what are our goals what are our priorities I think that's the minimum to provide a team so they know where they're going and they can be autonomous in their work so that's where efficiency is so contrary to management you manage

the task you manage everything that the team has to do but they don't have a full picture they don't understand they just execute this is in efficient way of working where we're not in a factory age where you just produce right you use your intelligence your creativity your inspiration so around making games it's a lot of cognitive creativity and so you as as a system an organization you gain more by giving autonomy for people creating the frame where why are we here where are we going what are we trying to achieve invent goals what are the rules of a game how are we playing together as a team what are the rules we call it values so how do we communicate with each other how do we make decisions here how do we debate how do we solve a conflict how do we ship something how do we decide on which features is important so when you have created those rules of a game everyone can play at the best and that's where efficiency is really for human systems rather than controlling the process controlling I don't know outcome controlling a person it's an

very inefficient way even from a you know management point of view for the outcome and I've seen the best teams I I saw it so I with the studio I built with this principal the output was 10x by me creating planting the seed creating the right system and then I could be out of it and the you know the will was in motion so you have the right people uh with the motivation the right skills and they produce they will do the thing that's that's that's something that we tend to forget so it's spending time more on the environmental system than controlling individuals I'm thinking about that because that ties in with the other Dynamic we're seeing which is that the teams themselves to your point you know they're bringing in all the different talents we're talking about product and marketing and engineering and creative we talk about my favorite topic that I want to cover at some point as well Brian democratizing access to the data actually creates a better

company and a better game because again it's that whole idea of being transparent so even being transparent about the data that you're using to forecast your goals you can't say oh we missed the quarterly goal if everyone isn't clear on what that really is so it's really about all of that at all levels and that's the way gaming studios are moving right now and another thing that's happening and we'll have a show about this as well Brian I'm always thinking about these things is about Reinventing yourself because everything is changing and your coaching itself right Sophie is about unlocking your hidden potential unlocking your talent bringing the most out of that not just in a team but in yourself and I just love to hear what you can share around how people can reinvent themselves particularly at this time where they may have been in UA but through a layoff they're no longer doing that they're not doing media buying they have to they

have to find another role in the company any thoughts or any yeah any smart advice on what an individual can do to change themselves and change their Journey so same approach here uh I have a very product approach and I have uh been coaching actually people in a transition of career after a layoff or sometimes living uh so I'm very familiar with that process so what we do as a first step is analyze 360 review We analyze the whole past sometimes 15 years 10 years of all the roles the up and downs and what were the commonalities the patterns where the person was the happiest the most energized like the like the fullest version of them and the worst time where there were drain they were stress they were not themselves so before you change you have to understand who you are first so there's a lot of time spend into analyzing so something we don't do enough is because it's it's not intutive is taking time aside to reflect to

journal so I with leaders I work a lot to say dedicate some white space this is time for yourself it is good time spaning it is strategic time so I I have done this for myself and that's what also I I work with in my coaching then people discover a few things about them and then it's like well it hasn't been always about UA for me actually I see a common pattern where I love to grow things I love to bring them zero to one it's like okay interesting if we start from a def definition or one to two you know like the scale The Big Numbers what else can you do then if it's like forget about you for a moment what else can you do and then they start to see options if I want to because at the core of this is the activity not just with filed and then they start to see well maybe I can help advise other companies to bring one to two or maybe I can apply my game knowledge to other companies like Tech consumer apps and so they start to see options so in the process of renting yourself is more

understanding what makes you you what you good at whe you have energy and joy and how can you translate that in other fields and then you you start to zoom out right instead of being very narrow and being this is the only way for me to exist and it's also a very beautiful transformative uh process to see people allowing themselves to see bigger that's howo I move to coaching because before I was like I can only make games for these games I'm all about that but like I said peeling the layers of the onion like no it has never been just about that and then I can do much more than starting from the core that makes a huge amount of sense and it kind of it Chimes for me because I I know so many people who uh see the role within games as fixed uh I am a programmer I will always be a programmer and more so that games is their whole world you know they never look Beyond so um I'm I'm really interested in finding out from your work in games are you now

looking kind of Beyond as the the games ecosystem kind of converges with so many other areas you mentioned Tech film screen animation high-end TV you know virtual production are are you looking beyond the sort of the shall we say the confines of the games Market into sort of The Wider world yes so I've been also doing that process for myself where I so I've been really deep into the leadership topic and human and it doesn't apply only to games right we don't have just humans in games um but my experience and my network is in games so I was really trying to put together like the different so and what is the intersection and so right now I'm building a coaching product called Olivia I will announce it soon this summer publicly and it's taking all my insights learning of leadership but making it scalable to empower individuals to do some um uh self-guided coaching for themselves in a reasonable bud and where it's interesting like where is

game feding into that I use with my co-founder we are both we both game executive or game knowledge or you know how to create an engaging product something playful something fun to engage with into a consumer app as we see some some game executive moving to that so we are bringing a game knowledge to beond a leadership coaching product and we are Distributing first in the gaming industry because that's where our network is so we started to work on it month months ago uh we have MVP ready we have monetization ready and we have a first customer already and all of that bootstrapped we v no VCS you know so I found my path to build something I really care about and where I was not stuck financially that's fantastic congratulations absolutely and we've got it here it's h it's it's your new chapter that you are writing that's exciting and congratulations yeah so that's an example you know where you can go beyond I it was a process for me to think how can I still be in games

without being games it was a bit of a grieving process where I say oh I don't want to leave games but I've never Liv in games I help people in games it can sometimes feel like there's no Escape I've H I've stepped out into the wider world of tech and journalism and you know uh uh education skills and development and yeah games keeps drawing me back in it is a weirdly compelling and wonderful sort of community of people so uh I'm delighted we can't wait to hear more about Olivia and uh you know potentially get you back on the podcast to to tell us more once you're up and running thank you very much I'd love to share more about it and uh you know distribute it with the realm because I believe um you know in the mission uh everyone deserves a coach not only people who have a lot of money and are executive roles and to find their inner truth you know to do to have a more Serene life professionally you can't always have the answer but if you do figure out out the question it's like in Hitchhiker's Guide of the Galaxy if you

know the question then the answer makes sense let's talk about those questions let's have three rapid fire questions that we should be asking ourselves that maybe we don't even know we should be asking ourselves and when we ask ourselves we will start on this journey and maybe yall to be ready to work with you what would those questions be like really uh emerging for me it's around emotional management because we talked lot about the failure of managing our emotions in leadership like fears stress so a lot of times we feel and we act while we react right so the question anyone can ask them themselves whether you're in leadership rule or not but to have more of that Serenity like feel first when you feel like in your body a feeling is not in the head we are thinking our emotions but actually we are feeling them in our body what am I feeling where am I feeling it that's the first question when you are overwhelmed some something is not right to give an example you know anger is

very located in the chest it's like tension contraction fear is in the guts the belly uh sadness is more in the pain of the chest you know like in your heart so you can locate your emotions what am I feeling and as you identify the emotion why am I feeling this way emotions always tell you something if you're angry it's because your boundaries were crossed somebody stepped on your boundaries like really hard you couldn't defend yourself and you're really upset and it build resentment it turn into resentment so when you understand anger anger for example you know how to act like you need to set back your boundaries uh you know sadness also has a meaning it's a feeling of loss um and fear is a feeling of not knowing what's going to come so then you can actually work on that what it needs to be known for me so I'm not feeling fear so the second question uh after you know why are you feeling this way is is after you understand why you feeling this way what will you do what is the

action you'll take after you understand why you feeling that feeling so the three question what am I feeling right now second why am I feeling that feeling so what is behind that feeling and once I understand that what will I do so Sophie you've you've brought some incredible advice this is an area I know that the games industry struggles with I know a lot of people personally who have really the S of the challenges of leadership you know overwhelming um and and in some cases lifechanging so I think this is an area we need to talk about more and your whole approach I think has been really refreshing and I'm fairly sure our listeners are going to have an awful lot to take away um so thank you for that now before you go something completely different we ask all of our guests we bring it right back into the heart of games and uh we're going to ask you what game are you playing right now when you're not bringing Joy to people's lives simplifying um what are you

playing and then what's brought you the most Joy what's your favorite game of all time such a difficult question I have so many games I love to play um but a game I've been playing but I pause it a bit it's B gate I but this is a kind of experience where I can go really deep it's very creative it's very uh like RPG like I'm a completionist so I love spending time on that type of game so still game for me this year uh best game all times I go back to my RPG love is Final Fantasy 7 so then it reveals so which generation I'm part of because you know it's like you have that was a high ply like Graphics like 3D that is almost laughable but kind of cute so it was the first 3D game RPG game with from Final Fantasy but it was such a deep story I was really in it and he was almost like a self Journey for me because I I could recognize myself so much in the Journey

of a of a game hero the characters so it really marked me and this is where I realize I want to work on things that will move you this way as you experience you know the the media the the thing that teaches you something very deep about yourself and so I'm still on that Journey you know so that game did that to me and I hope like to create more product that will do the same not maybe a game but you know products that will move you in a way way that you you know about yourself a beautiful answer deep and meaningful and personal so that that couldn't be more perfect um and a big change from all the guys we get who come on and say football manager which happens a lot wow not my game it's a great you know being true themselves Brian it's it's all it's all good there are no wrong answers piggy but I just I really appreciate the thought and feeling that you brought into that Sophie so thank you so much um I could honestly talk to you all day um but sadly we're going to have to bring

things to a halt and um let you go uh but we will absolutely ask you back and we will absolutely you know hope to hear more about Olivia as as things progress and um thank you for thank you for giving us the world exclusive yeah thank you yeah it's my first announcement about it right so I was like holding holding like okay I need to jump in war I'm going to do it at this episode so thanks for the opportunity it's L because when I reached out to you I didn't know that and we have that as a bonus it all goes around in a circle and as I said at the beginning it was going to be a moving show it has been but it's also moved us forward I think on our own personal Journeys speaking here for my listeners it has been valuable it has been a joy and it has been fun so thank you Sophie yeah very fun for me as well thank you this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing

game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games Market in all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter @ PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz SLP podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocket gamer.com Biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast

and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future