Pitching to Publishers | PocketGamer.biz RoundTable

we're five minutes uh behind due to a few technical issues but don't worry i can see uh all of the attendees rolling in uh some friendly faces that i know some pictures new and old which is absolutely great to see especially given the nature of today's round table which is all about pitching to publishers obviously as part of this panel we're going to be touching on things to do things not to do advice um and obviously that'll be in relation to you know things like the pitch but obviously also if you're just pitching to publishers in general or just giving a pitch and you know we'll try and touch on the fact that we live in a digital world uh at the moment but obviously physical will return at some point and we've all been doing physical for a while and see if there's any differences or anything like that um i can see a few people still coming in so uh you know welcome all um you'll get the gist of this as we go along but it's pretty self-explanatory to begin though um i will let all of my guests introduce

themselves uh you know a lot of hosts like to introduce the panelists but i like to let them do their own introductions so we'll go in my order which i'm sure will be different to all of your orders apart from a few which by odds should have the same as me but uh first up uh stephen do you want to give yourself an introduction uh yeah certainly um so i'm stephen haye um i work primarily for myself as hey stephen haye um advising lots of indies on um marketing mainly but also pitching um and i also act as a scout for um for a medium-sized publisher called merge games so um so i see pitches um as well as helping to create pictures as well i'm actually doing a session on pitching uh um poke game mechanics helsinki next week uh so tune in yes uh stephen is one of the judges for our pc and console uh big indie pitch which is next tuesday

afternoon another one of our judges for next week is kay uh so do you want to give yourself an introduction kay certainly hi everybody uh i'm kai uh currently serving as a ceo of paladin studios we are a i would say mid-sized independent studio in denha i'm working on all kinds of platforms from mobile to console um to everything else in between um yeah and uh pleasure to be here uh we're pitching a lot we did a ton of pitches over the last i'd say six months specifically it always goes in cycles and uh so i'll probably have some stories to have there fantastic yeah and to another one of our judges but also the sponsor of our upcoming uh pc and console big indie pitch at pocket gaming connects digital three shin you want to give yourself an introduction i forgot that was me sorry hello um i'm shin shintaro kanaya i'm the founder and ceo of a company

called chorus worldwide we're a indie games publisher uh with the majority of stuff that we do being taking western games out to asia i've been involved in a lot of the pitches uh judging a lot of pitches but in turn we also do pitch to other people uh as well for example platforms like uh like microsoft and uh and switch and nintendo etc so been on both sides of the um of the table so yeah looking forward to this discussion fantastic and next up is kathleen another one of our judges hi everybody welcome and uh yeah i mean it's awesome to be here again i mean pitching is one of the core of indies of course and it's not easy it's not an easy exercise i've been hearing a lot of pictures during my career i've been in industry for a couple of years now that's the least we can say and um yeah it's always it's always difficult to to do not only the elevator pitch but

also the full pitch to platforms or uh to judges and in five minutes as we are used to uh but yeah it's it's quite an exercise yeah and last but certainly not least uh from quality coming here to represent quality quality are our season sponsors on the uh digital season of the big indie pitch and the whole reason we're able to bring this round table to you today so uh thank you for joining us jack and uh do you want to give us an introduction to what you guys do because i think a lot of the people in the audience will probably more know simon or jake yep yep so um i'm a publishing manager at kwali um i was quality's first publishing manager um so i kind of helped um set up the uh department and saw it grow um and so i've had the opportunity to see uh hundreds and hundreds of mobile pitches over my time at kwali so i'm looking forward to being a part of this talk fantastic so uh you know uh obviously we're up and running now and there we won't hold the questions any longer and i think i'm gonna start with a fairly

broad question uh probably one that a lot of the audience uh wants to uh know the answer to um and i know there's many answers but we'll get to the nuts and bolts of some opinions and i think i'll start with you jack since we were just chatting but yeah what do you think goes into a successful pitch especially when you're looking for a publisher i know it's a broad question but uh if you get the ball rolling with some thoughts on what you think makes a really good pitch and we'll see where the conversation goes yeah so it might be a little bit of a an unusual starting point but i think a key element of it is just doing your research on the publisher before you pitch to them first as well because there's a lot of different publishers that all have different uh portfolios and they might be better fit for certain styled games or certain genres and making sure that you're taking you know your game to a publisher that's actually going to be best equipped to deal with that and most likely to be interested in it as well is is really really important because you know it's unfortunate to sit there when someone very clearly has like a fantastic game um but it's maybe not quite the right fit for um you know either that

publisher or you know you want to make sure you have a good partnership that's going to benefit everyone so yeah i think that's a really good point especially in the case of you guys who's specifically looking for hyper casual games or you know in the case of some of your other guys you know like you might be looking for games on certain platforms so it doesn't make much sense to pitch a game like that's on you know the incorrect uh platform and if i come to you stephen next you've seen a range of pictures but actually across a range of different platforms for context uh we used to work together at chilingo um and you know obviously you were the marketing manager there and then you know now you've got your own business so you've helped across loads of different platforms and what do you think goes into making a really good pitch um i think kind of top i guess if i'd the um you know i think i've kind of given talks on pictures and some sometimes some people will um ask questions later or come up to me and they say it's dead easy for you to pitch because you're um you know you're a gobby pr

marketing person and you know you've got confidence and um and i haven't really you know it's just gin normally competence but i think people buy into you know if i had kind of one best tip on what should be a good pitch is is just don't be afraid to show your passion and enthusiasm and you know you're pitching yourself as a studio as much as that products and those people you know who who are being pitched to they want to buy enthusiasm and they want to buy you know kind of love of a product and so don't don't be shy you know don't be shy in in showing that get everything right and i'm sure we'll go through all the details uh in in this um in this hour but but just but also just be yourself and because people buy into that and believe in a product and no matter if you're shy or you know retiring and and not very you don't think you're very good at presenting if you believe in something it will come across i think yeah fantastic i mean anyone else want to jump in now anyone

else got any burning thoughts or am i picking on someone okay do you want to go yeah just uh one thing i wanted to add because it's been you know a learning experience over the last i don't know 10 15 years but um all of which has been said is true um you know show that you're burning for it because otherwise why would somebody else right that's certainly true know your game actually know it you know have the answers if you don't then you know make sure you ask your designers beforehand how many levels there are and so on um but also i think it's becoming increasingly important to know your market and it doesn't mean that you have to be a publisher and have to have all the answers but you have to put it in perspective um you have to have at least a vague idea of who is it that's going to play it on you know how many roughly what is the size of the audience that is out there um how much do you want to sell your

product for right there's a big difference between a 4.99 and a 2099 product on and or 60 euros product um you we're seeing this increasingly becoming questions that come to us and uh you need to be ready to answer that yeah i mean like like you say i think knowing your product is you know arguably one of the most important things because if you don't know your product how can you sell it accurately uh i suppose one thing that's that's interesting to me which maybe kathleen or shin can jump in on is i think one thing i've noticed recently when talking to a lot of developers is is kind of also understanding what a publisher is offering because i think sometimes there's a misunderstanding on maybe what the developer wants out of the publisher and that then affected affects the pitch somewhat you know maybe some people might actually be looking for an investor rather than a publisher or some people might want a consultant rather than a publisher or equally some people might be getting it the wrong way

around and actually need a publisher when they think that they you know are better off doing it another way um kathleen i can see you're unmuted so uh what do you think yeah i totally agree with uh the guy said earlier but i also wanted to add that it's necessary to be realistic yeah asking for tons of money or not enough money because that also happens a lot with studios in other countries like latin america it happened to me last week but um yeah i mean um then again it's not always easy for for in the studio to know the difference between an investor and a publisher they often um are mixing things up and they they don't not always know very well what they want what they need what their needs are and that is very um crucial to define that before going to a publisher to go before going to an investor submitting the games etc etc but yeah i think that realism is

is an order here and also as kate said um know your product and be enthusiastic about it it's it's always part and it's always so heartwarming to hear the the developers talk about their their their baby actually because it's it's that right but yeah and sometimes making the difference between an investor and a publisher is really necessary because it is very different a very different pitch also yeah shin don't think you got away with this so you got anything to add on your top tip to developers um or you know anything based on what any of the other panelists have said it's such a big question is it but i think yeah um there's a couple of things i think what jack was saying about you know trying to figure out what the publisher wants i think is a really good one to figure out whether you're pitching to the right publisher at the same time i would say that sometimes there are things going on inside publishers you won't necessarily know about their priorities might have changed so you know it really surprised me the four guys came out from the guys that did

hotline miami right so stuff like that you don't necessarily know um that there might have been something changed there so pitch as often as to as many people as possible because you don't know then get used to hearing no a lot um you only need one yes or maybe a couple of yeses at the end of the day if you're going regional um and also i think for most publishers they're seeing a lot of pictures so get to the point as quickly as possible and get to get to whatever is most exciting that you think is most exciting in your pitch as quickly as possible because it really is that that step that you make when you're presenting a game when you're trying to get someone excited as quickly as possible is the exact same step the publisher is going to have to do going to the market right so how do they how do you get someone interested as soon as possible so if you can if you as a pitcher can kind of almost do that that job for them showing this is the most exciting part of the game this is why i think you as a publisher should be

excited that most likely will be the same thing the publisher does when they go to market themselves if you can get to that quickly then that's uh that's a really big help i think for you and the publisher yeah and i think what you raised there shin is exactly what i wanted from this roundtable which is just seeing where the conversation goes and the flow and so i'm actually going to throw something in that uh you know i know that every single one of you is qualified to speak on but wasn't in my original preliminary questions but i think it's important because it's what developers are constantly asking me as you know someone who sees an equal number of pictures as you guys and that's structure and what things to keep in and what things to leave out and as you just said shin getting to the you know the point straight away is really important because at the big indie pitch yes we only gave five minutes and you know a lot of people say that's too short but ultimately that's kind of how much time you've got to grab someone's attention even in like a half hour meeting arguably so i just wonder when it comes to structure

is there anything that you guys enjoy seeing over other things like and what i'm driving at here for example is the kind of things i always go on about focusing on the game you know are you wanting to know about the the company and their inspirations or are you wanting to get to the game straight away are you wanting to know what makes it unique and different or you want in market analysis first and foremost and i'm sure i might actually get different answers from all of you guys but i'm gonna pick on stephen to start with since you're next to me on my screen and you know what in your experience not just you as a you know someone who helps people from a marketing point of view but also in your capacity as a merge consultant yeah well i'm putting together this uh presentation right now for next week actually which because it's a question i get asked a lot so i i've made up a game in my tiny head and i've i've done a a pitch for it and that's basically what i'm going to pitch next week is my talk on structure um but i would think um for me personally i want to see i want

the i'm a marketeer so i want that x statement i want give me a sentence of why i should be excited why should care why it's different and i don't care you know i think if people use uh other game references or film references or not or something totally original but just i think the you know the other piece of advice i think is um which has been touched upon but know what you are selling and and sell me that and whether it it's sim talks about about that that moment of you know i've been in pictures where people like sell you stuff and then i'm a bit perplexed because sometimes um developers are very i mean i i'm way stupider than any developer i can develop a game or create a game but sometimes i think they're so close to things they get very proud of maybe technical achievements maybe you know uh kind of mechanical things in the game and then they kind of miss

what the where the passion is all the magic the one moment of magic in the game you know how you know this how this game makes you feel when you're sat on top of a pig shooting pirates that's fantastic and unique and tell me about that you know and sometimes they kind of throw that away or mumble them no no no come back come back so i there's two things i want i want um and up front i want her i want to be sold in my heart basically tell me something cool and exciting and then tell me the head stuff the facts who you are how much it's going to cost how long it's going to take tell me that afterwards as well so you do it it's a lot to ask but but that's pitching yeah i think that alludes to kind of the something that chris said in the chat as in chris james of steel media and in that you know you have to have elements of being able to sell your product but that's not literally the same thing as you know selling something it's just having that passion and desire believing in the product knowing how to to promote market sell something without

literally shoving it down someone's face it's make them excited about it i want to come to you jack next though because i wonder if you guys at quality have a slightly different angle given that you know you guys are specifically focusing on hyper casual so what i'm wondering is if someone was pitching to you are you wanting to know the hyper-casual merits of it first or are you wanting to know kind of what stephen alludes to the passion first and then obviously double down on that it's it's hyper casual uh yeah so uh it's it's always really nice to know a little bit about the the person pitching in their background and their their company because then you know we're kind of aware you know who might be working with um but in hyper casual the games are quite small and it's all about those little bite-sized moments of gameplay that kind of make you feel good um so sort of jumping quite into it quite fast um just sort of saying you know here's what the game flow's going to be um here's kind of like the players going to touch on the home screen they're going to be taken to a bright colorful environment they're going to be able to swipe left or right to do this um and just kind of that step by

step um run through of like here is what one level or one game loop is going to look like um and then if you have like either some inspiration that you can say you know here's the kind of art style that it would also be in it just helps give a very um kind of like thorough understanding of okay i can picture what this game is going to look like i can picture how it's going to play like um and in hyper casual you know it helps to identify those feel good moments of you know the player is going to feel like they're progressing they're going to have the cell a celebratory effect at the end of the level here that's going to push them straight into the next level and within sort of five minutes you can have a really good understanding of the game and that then helps us um give feedback as to you know we we do or don't think it kind of fits into what's working at hype casual at the moment or um here's some slight tweaks we've seen you know that we've seen working really well lately have you considered this and it just kind of gets the conversation about the game flowing uh quite early yeah

so i'll come to k next and uh interestingly alongside what i've just asked um i also want to know with some of the things coming in in the chat and obviously just to say to everyone i can see people are putting questions into the q a please do that because we'll get to them later on but given it's relevant right now and someone's asking in the chat which i'd love to give my answer because i always have the answer but you know we've got you guys here um is you know even if the game is small or in the early stages what's your opinion on putting it straight into the publisher's hands versus describing its key points through spread you know through slideshows and all that i know right now in the digital age we're kind of trapped by that but you know let's take it you know uh if we're at a show or anything like that yeah i mean uh we're operating in the digital realm so there's no reason not to you can always give stuff to them right as soon as you have something we're we're now or you know like six ten months ago we started giving out

actually super early prototypes like you know one week in um and it's been received really well because um you know you get you get free uh free work from the publishers which is very rare but uh awesome because you get feedback right um and the the some things you want to um you want to get that early you know on if you have a specific core game that you want to figure out um if you have good relationships with some of them then that's definitely something we use a lot um so yeah for me um and you know maybe it gets too much um you know if everybody does it it's um jack and uh shin are probably gonna be really annoyed very quickly but uh or not answer anymore but uh if you pick it wisely uh if you pick the ones that you actually do have it's not a relationship with then that's something that's really helpful um and uh one thing i wanted to mention on on the previous thoughts of what is um what is the first thing you want to show

um i think um recognizing that uh emotions are a very very strong tool um to work with uh if you can if you have that smile on your face when you look at your product if you can transfer that to the person opposite you um purely as an emotion you basically have eighty percent of the sale um don't write on facts because um they don't matter that much they do at one point but not initially um you know those first uh 10 20 30 seconds you need to get that over the bridge of emotions and then it's a much easier way yeah definitely i think that's really good advice i'm gonna come to you kathleen next because for good reason i've got a double question for shin that i think will flow into the uh into my next question but kathleen on structure is there anything you'd like to add based on what everyone's been saying well on structure i mean it's it is

important to have a real good structured pitch in front of you and everything uh that has been has been said so far is obviously um the basics right um i also wanted to add that uh it happens a lot that when the publisher starts to ask questions the developer is not able to answer and that is a no-go i mean if you're not able to answer the questions uh that the developer is asking you you also have to practice those questions because you know that they will come and that they will try to because they are spending also a lot of money in it if they go through with the project right they want to know everything single thing about it so it's very important to have every detail ready at any time that is something that is really important i mean it happens a lot uh during the beginning of the pitch for instance it happens a lot that um that developers don't even know when they what their their time plan is in the road map if i ask what is the road map um

well perhaps this and those words need to be really important because the perhaps and the ifs and um maybe no you have to be sure about what you're saying what you are doing and what you are presenting that is really important i think i think you make a good point there as well and and something i'd add as well is for as much as we talk about structure you always i would say you always have to be flexible because questions might come at different times and you know it's very difficult for the someone watching a pitch to find that passion when right they're rigidly stuck to the structure that the the the person showcasing wants to give so that has unless you disagree with me anyone i think there has to be a level of flexibility within a pitch as well yeah and i think it's it's even more difficult in this digital times where we cannot you know be physically in front of someone and and and share their body language right and also talk two minutes about

your game say hey i have like little versions on my phone you like to play we like to try it out and then you know that is something that is missing really really and it's very hard for for developers to to overcome that's that the lack of physical contact uh with the publisher also something that i wanted to add is also make sure if you if you hand out prototypes if you hand out them playable demos and stuff be sure it comes into the mailbox of the right person because um you know it can come into you know in the lab of someone who's who will not continue who happens to not like the game simply and purely and then the game does not go up right so having the right person to talk to is also very important yeah now i know you mentioned covid kathleen but i'm going to come back to the pandemic and how life's changed shortly but of course i want to give shin i want to give you some time to see if you've got anything to add on the

structure i mean one person here says would you should you put the team first or the game first i obviously have strong opinions about that but you know you're the publisher looking what what's your thoughts on that as someone who's a depends on you know who who the person is i would always most of the time i would say the game first but yeah if miyamoto's walking through the door then it doesn't really matter like it so that does matter you know who you are i think i mean it was actually james that asked a question like james brooks to be and he's got um quite a career behind him as well already so you know if you know that someone like james walked in as a publisher you're already kind of interested in you know okay what's what's he bringing um so i think it depends but i would say majority of the time it's going to be what's the game first right and then the that if that's the what then the talk about the team is really the how that's about can this team do are you getting the confidence that this team is able to deliver on the vision that they're showing you right so but the first thing has to be i

think the vision most of the time yeah um the other thing i'd say is there was a question about you know should should you do that old that hollywood cliche of it is this means this but with this and actually i think you know in some format like big indie pitch where they you know pictures have literally got five minutes i actually think that's quite useful uh you know someone came up and said it's doom meets animal crossing play it like okay i'm interested like that sounds bizarre you know so something like that but you have to have something that you know kind of stands up to that um otherwise it's a bit pointless so yeah and i think the other thing is you've got to remember that the first pitch is it's like a first date it's the beginning of the conversation it's the beginning of a relationship if you're lucky so you don't have to do everything in that first pitch like just get them tease them get the person interested and hopefully that will lead to a second date etc etc uh i said so i think that's it's important to keep that first pitch in

the context of hopefully what will become a longer relationship yeah you just have to make them fall in love with your game and and and it's not easy because fall in love is not easy and it's and also you have to show why you're gay because um i mean publishers see hundreds and tons of of pitches all the time but why is your game so exceptional what makes it stand out why is it better than others in your opinion that is something you have to sell and that you really have to uh and globe in the pitch and that should be the catch phase uh from the beginning from the start well and then then take it from their association uh because discussions will go around a lot of stuff in more detail after that first discussion as you said yes totally i think actually that ties back into something you said earlier about being realistic and i think often i'm sure we've all seen this with people that come in with pictures and they think the game is amazing but they haven't necessarily taken the

time to see from a publisher point of view or even a player point of view what else is out there that is similar does my game stand up to that and just taking that five minutes to do a quick google search and say okay this is the game is there anything similar um you know it's really important to being realistic is so important i think and yeah you raised that point earlier yeah i think knowing the competition is definitely a strong point because you know that there's a good chance it's possibly going to be raised in like in we said in the q a section of any kind of pitch so you you need to understand that i mean um but one thing i wanted to to move on to quickly before we we get into covert and other stuff is you know despite what's happened in the world you know we were all joking before we started about planes and and the old ways and travel but we're all you know the games industry is a global industry and we're always looking at how things appeal across a range of markets and i want to start with you shin i think for fairly obvious reasons because whilst you know chorus publish globally you

obviously have a specialization in taking games from the west to asia i mean how important is cross-cultural understanding and appreciation when pitching to well anyone but specifically to a publisher because publishers are normally i would say will have a mind on certain international markets yeah i think i mean obviously i'm gonna say it's important um but from a developer's point of view i always um i will always say first and foremost focus on what you want to make right and to some extent ignore there's a book would ignore everybody all about creativity and you kind of have to do that to some extent um and also if you try and uh take into account different cultures that you don't always necessarily know about but you think you do so i don't want to do this because i might offend people in japan for example unless you really know what's going to offend people in japan i wouldn't take that consideration into account you're going to filter based on

incomplete information um so the one i guess the biggest thing for us is always localization and especially with just the amount of text some a lot of people just like to write more than is really necessary in a game obviously depends on the type of game but i think this applies not just to asia but anyway if you localization is always going to be important and a key tool in getting your game to places outside let's say an english-speaking market so just think every time you write a word if that means that one word needs to be translated five or six times as a minimum bear in mind that cost when you write that word down okay this is actually going to cost me another like a dollar right or something it's going to cost someone a dollar because i've written and so instead of therefore therefore as one word answer so that kind of thing is just so i think those kinds of things are worth keeping in mind um yeah i mean this taps into i suppose two

reasons why i asked this question and i think it's just doubling down on on some things is like one it's obviously understanding what a publisher is offering to you and in this case you know you might be looking to the publisher to assist with this localization with this globalization aspect but it's also again what we all said about being realistic especially when it comes to things like things like costings you know if you're wanting to take your project global um and it's a hairy heavy text-based game then you know you need to understand that that's part of it i suppose coming to you though jack um and and i suppose stephen will be able to to win i suppose everyone will be able to input but we'll start with jack um you might see a difference in in in that in terms of um i suppose not in terms of the focus but in terms of you know hyper casual games often aren't heavy text-led games but do you think that um would you still say that that international aspect is something that you as the publisher should have more of a mind on while the developer is focused on the creativity yeah definitely and i think i kind of

agree with shintoro that you know always we always advise you to go and focus on building the game build something that you're proud of that you're enthusiastic about um and then you know present it to a publisher like us and you know we're there to help then guide you know this this element might be a little bit insensitive in in this region um if it becomes an issue you know we can flag it early but i think in the early stages just build something you like um present it to a publisher hopefully they're as enthusiastic about it as you are and then um you know that they're able to help you with things like localization and making sure that it's taken in the right way in the right regions and kind of expanding your global reach because i think for a publisher that's a big part of their role is is helping you market your game um you know globally making sure that it's performing as well as it can in all areas and so just having a really good core game is crucial to that yeah i think it's great that we've had a fairly simple answer i do want to give anyone else some time to uh chip in here stephen i can see

you've unmuted is that um yeah well i was just being polite really well that's why i'm getting my fee isn't it uh yeah i mean from a merge perspective we're fairly you know merged largest audience is still predominantly the us so we're fairly kind of u.s kind of centric and i think it's what you know was said before about knowing your publisher and knowing the publishers strengths and what territories that they're big in yeah and and then there's the the thing about well you don't know everything that's going on in the public face as well which has also been said so people may be purposely trying to um you know expand segments of the market which um which they are not known for doing in my experience so it's not generally territorial it's more about kind of it could be genre specific you know so like for example we may be on the lookout for a like a a graphic novel or

an interactive novel because we see that that's big there's there's a market there it's it's not over saturated um rather than you know rather than a specific territory um that we would try to kind of target so again it's about kind of just having that bit of knowledge about who whom i pitch into what are they good at you know what's their reach just doing that digging and to do that you know research it but find out who's worked with them and developers are all so great at talking to each other um and you know k k will back me up hopefully but you know so talk to all the developers about them get recommendations from them find out what what their strengths are and i would say that about anyone entering any kind of partnership um with a publisher anyway so so do something and do some research especially if it's your big you know sometimes it shows you kind of just do blanket pitching

and i get that because the opportunity is there but sometimes you'll you'll have the pub you know your dream publisher or your short list really do some digging and and know what they're good at i think that's actually really fascinating and you know fantastic advice is the fact that we talk about the cross cultural stuff and you know i raised it because you know people ask me but you know actually a lot of the time i think you know everyone uh is thinking about it the wrong way around and you know like yeah if you're pitching to a certain publisher who's strong in certain markets maybe you want to know what games are strong in those markets and also what kind of games that that publisher is tends to be pitching you know because you know i think that's you know any good feedback um and you know it's going to be good preparation um i think though um unless anyone else has anything to add on that point i think i will move on to the next point which is because i don't want to miss it out because i know it's a hot topic for everyone and i want to touch and i think we'll start with kathleen on this one and which is is covet and obviously not touching on the actual you know uh

pandemic itself but more the way it's changed our world and you know pitching especially to publishers do you how how different do you think it is uh right now and you know is there a strong difference between pitching in person for example traditionally at a show or through a meeting versus doing it digitally like you know through zoom like we're doing now or even by email do you know are the different approaches and different things that developers need to be aware of oh it's so complicated for them i mean it's really really hard it's it's become um amazingly difficult for them even if even if it's easy to attend there's an event every week right so everybody can go to those events there's no uh travel cost no no no nothing around it so that's that's the good part but the bad part is that um it's it's way more difficult you have 30 minutes you're not in front of the of the person that you want to meet if the person accepted your invitation which is not

always the case so it's really really way more harder than it was before uh because you know how it goes on a regular show on a physical show you bump into someone or you're just waiting in a line for for coffee or whatever and you start talking about your game that might be your hit man you know the guy that you want to need that you needed to meet in that show you never know so um the the whole random bumping into someone has disappeared which makes it um very i'd say uh almost uh you know cold and distant uh you don't know if that person is the right person does he have the the the the ability to to push the project through or is he just an intern uh you know just like um yeah well it's it's it's so hard and i think it's um uh it's hard also for publishers because

it's the car according to their scope they may not find what they are looking for at a specific event so uh and you cannot um scope your games uh on the internet only it's very important for publishers and for developers to be physically present on an event i i'm i'm so convinced of that even if the digital events are helping a bit but um i mean it's not it will never replace the real thing i suppose it's always swing some roundabouts isn't it for every good thing that you know that's taken away you gain something in the fact that you say like this there's low costs and low entry point but the gaining those opportunities could be a little bit harder i mean um okay do you have anything to add on on this point or any tips and advice for developers who are pitching digitally now rather than in person or maybe i've pitched digitally for the first time and i'm thinking afterwards maybe i'll give the physical a go

yeah how much time do we have um i think we can talk about the upsides and the downsides of this for a long time um i can i can briefly touch on it from our perspective so we're we're lucky uh in a way that we've been around for quite some time so we have a very solid network that goes pretty deep and which are pretty wide and you know has solid relationships closer ones as well so that's that's a big advantage right now because if you don't have that and you need to build that on online only that's going to be tough uh however funny and charming you are it's going to be harder through this medium than uh personal contact so that that's one thing um that's an upside for us um there's another upside which funnily enough i don't think any of us really thought about before but uh the the events um schedule of the year right um that was invented many many years ago when games were sold physically in the store in boxes the

young kids nowadays don't even know what that means anymore probably um and there was a cadence of you sell your game on christmas you make the most money and there was trade shows by the distributors where everybody pitched a game there was a very regular schedule um and the big events like e3 and so on they um all confirmed to that right there's no need for that at all anymore and there hasn't been a need for that since we entered the digital realm but we kind of still stuck to it right you have to go to gdc because that's when you make your deals it's not the case anymore we can have pocket gamer pitches any day of the week awesome right we're not bound to this cycle so that that's i do believe that's another upside and as a developer you have to realize that you can do this any day like if you have a contact you don't have to wait um if you want new contacts then yeah you stick to the events but uh look around what the best one is for you

um yeah uh the downsides um downsides are also there um i mean it's uh it's on one hand easier to stand out and you know get in front of people if you know them already but it's also um this is now i think broadening the amount of stuff that publishers see and i'm curious to see what jack shouldn't think about that um because it's easier to funnel a lot more through um you don't have to meet for half an hour on you know um so that's uh that's interesting i'm i'm not sure yet what that means for us specifically but uh that that non-cadence we don't have to stick to certain events anymore as a big plus i think and so um the um the ability to tap into existing uh connections is really important yeah well let's let's come to jack next and uh you know you know see what you you think on on exactly uh what k said but uh you know also just uh you

know for jack shin and stephen who'll be coming to you know and if there's any advice you would give for developers to sort of manage their way through through these uh difficult times uh yeah i think it's been really interesting because like um k said and kathleen said it's there is like a bit more of a barrier where things can be a little bit colder um and i think for a lot of developers as well especially on the mobile side where it's very fast and easy to produce like a concept or or a small game um it's very tempting to just fire over like a singular message with like hey what about this and it's kind of like a loose description of a game with maybe like one print screen taken from a different you know game of concept and i think still going through that motion of treating it like you know you know if i was going to a meeting i'd show up prepared um i'd i'd know exactly what i'm gonna pitching and um just being willing to kind of get on that even a call like this you know so you can have that conversation you can talk face to face and kind of say okay you

know what what you've got here is great let's discuss about how we can maybe change that and not kind of uh due to the distance just skipping out on that um kind of like conversation stage um just opening up discussions about the the concepts but i think on on the other hand you know at the same time if someone's kind of really you know what we've learned if someone's nailed down that kind of like one or two page pitch um it can be very very efficient you know if a very experienced team knows exactly what needs to be gone through in terms of a game idea and they're kind of firing over presentations of breakdowns and it's kind of going through the check of you know yeah we think this is fantastic we think maybe um this prototype um should probably come a lower priority of your other idea and um i think a lot of it is down to you uh kind of like the experience of some developers and their ability to to know already what a publisher is looking after and being able to like concisely put

that across to them in text but then if you're not sure you know definitely try and set up that meeting or call still to to have that conversation because a lot of the time if if the publisher hasn't seen what information they want to from you they'll try and prompt it with questions or will help you along just so that you know maybe you can elaborate on on some things and sometimes that can take something that might previously have been rejected and help get it across the line when a publisher has a bit more of an understanding about what you're kind of shooting for yeah yeah shin anything to add on that point look i think um just to go off on what okay was saying the the thing that scared me most with the this whole year is realizing how much serendipity has played a part in us finding games you know just the i mean i can think of like three or four off the top of my head that i knew i wasn't going to look for but just found uh at events you know uh and so i it terrifies me what i'm missing um

because you know things like this uh are not what big indie pitches and and other things online are great but they're all you know people seeking each other and i think it's when some of the best games that we've we've found have been by accident and it's and those forums not being there is is this is scary for a publisher as well because it does mean that you know what what are we missing um so that does make an excellent point that i think should be uh you know made to to all of the developers watching which is um you know always be ready you know like you know whether it's digital whether it's physical you know always be ready maybe you know have your deck on you if you you're walking around or anything like that because you never know when the opportunity might arise absolutely i think in the in this time having just a really good simple email it sounds super a good email that you can blast out when you need that has you know a link

to your youtube trailer or video or gameplay whatever it is you've got which is nice simple concise someone can scan through it in 15 seconds click a link and you know at least get you're going to be able to get 80 of what you want in a concise message um and having the discipline to not write he says being really verbose but having the discipline not to write like 10 paragraphs before you get to what your game is about i think is um is really really important as well yeah and uh stephen um yeah i think what it's it's done is it it completely has moved that emphasis to um we can't rely on that face-to-face stuff and that chemistry anymore and and it is a real shame it's really taken the dimension away i grew kathleen well um then so your materials need to be hotter than ever basically you know you can't get away with kind of i'll convince them face to face

i'll show them again you know it needs to work the pitch decks need to be really hot your kind of pitch videos um and one thing that i would kind of recommend even more i think this year is um is actually pitching on video and and narrated pitch videos you know short sharp but you know this is um a narrated video which because you can't also you can't rely on video working online and you know and if you can send a link to somebody or you can send them a video with you just giving a little this is what we're trying to achieve with this game doesn't have to be fancy and and you know professionally made but it's um it's a good approximation of of what we you know we can do at real shows so um so that's something that i've been recommending to quite a few um developers to do if they can yeah great um so we've only got a few minutes left and i want to get to the queue in a but before that we've got two quick questions so i'm gonna do these two

questions in sort of a quick fire so um one of them has come into the chat and i think it's relevant and i'll do a brief introduction but someone wants to get some more information on the big indie pitch itself saying uh it's five minutes to sell my game to journalists and judges is that only about the game or will the pitch need to include budgets and time estimates will there be a proper pitch deck or is it only a presentation so i can first of all say that as the host that i would say it's much like what we've been saying in the uh in the chat here you want to obviously include some of those uh lots of things about you know um your budgets and time estimates uh towards the end but you want to lead with your game and you know and sort of be flexible in your presentation obviously i'll be sending out a lot more information to all of you lovely pictures but given we've got you experts here um does anyone have anything to add on on that let's let's make the question a bit more broader if you've only got five minutes to promote your game uh do you all uh agree or not that you would focus in and lead on your game but obviously maybe mention some of those

things later down the pitch uh let's let's go in order stephen uh yes i i i do want to know kind of um an estimation of the kind of dev budget and also um so yeah dead budget and how much is going to cost me when is it going to come and then and if i love the game as well then i'll you know i'll follow up and i'll find out i mean there's loads more we need to know but yeah the basics i think for me yeah of course k this is just my order yeah um yeah product product means game and uh everything else around it so be ready to answer what i mentioned before but you need to lead with the thing that potentially grabs everybody on the emotional side of things and that is the game that's not the numbers uh money is nice to have but uh it doesn't trigger emotions yeah shin anything to add on that uh yeah it's also it's always useful to know what the developers looking for in the publisher

what kind of support they need so or whether it is financial um i think that's always a good like slide or something to have in there yeah uh jack uh yeah i'd say yeah definitely lead off with the game and then if you have you know sort of 30 seconds at the end just to update on you know we think we'll have a prototype within one or two weeks or we already have a prototype um just to let the publisher know what kind of rough stage you're at is always useful too yeah kathleen yes definitely um the feasibility of the project and um again being realistic but definitely show off the game first and then also include a bit of what is your background is your team able to ship the game uh until the end because that is also something that the publisher wants to know uh if it's a solid team or or or not so yeah i i often ask a lot of those questions that we all said um during the beginning pitches as a judge and it's very useful and necessary to

need to know that as a publisher that you need to know what is going on when is the timeline what is it what is the road map et cetera what is the engine that you're using also very important so um yeah i mean uh definitely all this all the stuff that we are used to to ask actually is is so important uh not only in the game itself but those no need to go into details no need to add 15 slides about the team about the the you know well it can be very short and to the point yeah um so um i did have a couple more questions but i think um you know i know we started a little bit late so we'll go over a little bit and make sure to ask some questions some of the audience questions and you know what better than the questions from the audience rather than my never-ending questions um so um let's try and ask a few of them and you know we'll keep it as short as we can just to

um see how many we can fit in so don't worry if your answer's short but i'm going to combine two questions here and uh basically the gist of these two questions is you know when is it what is the right time in terms of production to be approaching the publisher like how early and the other question that kind of links in is you know should you already have soft launch data or you know should you be going uh earlier um jack should we start with you uh yeah so from from our perspective um we think that earlier that you can get in touch about an idea even if it's just an early concept stage and you've got like a mock-up of the concept um then you know earlier the better for us because then we can offer up you know what we know about the market um if there's any potential pitfall traps we think might be there in your concept that you might have to watch out for we're able to kind of flag those up early um so yeah on on our side as early as possible um just to help you know lean on us for game design as well as kind of project planning yeah

feel free to jump in anyone and yeah if anyone else has got anything to add on this kathleen i can see you're unmuted yeah i add to to your point jack that it's important to start very early to pitch to the game because um suppose you also want to see the evolution of the game where it goes and they see it most of the time as a partnership not as taking over an ip or something so it's really important that the publisher is in uh in you know really on board from from the total beginning so absolutely as soon as you have your your mock-ups ready shoot away uh it's it's important that that partnership and that you know that there's something like a family thing that is going to be uh constructed all along down the road and the publisher is there also the role of the publishers also being that uh guide the guiding star and and help you with uh as a developer to help to give advice about your game how can you do this or that better what should

not do so yeah as soon as possible i'm in yeah it's the biggest fallacy to think that an idea is worth anything um and that iterative process of actually showing stuff early talking about it getting feedback and input um i'll keep comparing it to cooking a meal together or the chance that most people like it is a lot higher than if i just put something on the table which i don't know if you like or even want to eat yeah i think it's also important to practice right not only showing to publishers but also yeah of course not your mom and dad but also the people around you because mom and dad obviously gonna love it that's true but um i mean also the people around you your friends your your if you have other developers to show it to they also can give you precious advice i mean it's very important that not only the publisher but also yeah um your own circle uh that their input is

also very important even if they are not in the gaming industry yeah uh yeah stephen all right all right i think sometimes as well we've seen i think we're about hopefully we we had a great meeting this morning with a dev who i think this is probably the third game they've shown us but and and this this is the one that we think this works this really works for us but we we've seen stuff really early and over this over the past couple of years i've already got to know this team and what they're capable of and how fast they iterate and and the first game they showed me was was really quite early and we emerged rarely we'll um sign something without something playable um but i think at this point we probably will because we know the team now because we've been talking to them for so long so i guess that point plays into another point is that you know if if one game is rejected it doesn't mean you've no you've not got a future with that publisher you know keep going back yeah shin anything you want to add to on

this uh on the on the um you know when it's a good time i think uh yeah i think what k said is absolutely right just having that conversation i like that cooking the meal together um that's really nice um but yeah when we've done the big indie pictures and we have the judges huddle afterwards sometimes we will say oh this is it's just too early like it and we have seen pictures when it's just i don't know if there's nothing still playable or the all the arts still you know placeholder and stuff like that that there is such a thing i think it has it can be a bit too early at least have something that uh hopefully is playable and not everyone can do vertical slices but if you can do that that's a really good place to start i think yeah um so uh sticking with you shin and i'm gonna merge these next two questions together but it does tap into one of the questions i was gonna ask and which is you know if we do this more um quick fire is there um you know is there any common mistakes that developers make when pitching and

equally because i think it ties into that sort of thing is do you think there's any like style of game or trap that you know would just really are oversaturated and developers aren't looking for at the moment chris for example says battle royale games in the mobile uh or in the in the physical you know in the um console space or io games maybe in the mobile space so yes i know that's a two-prong question but uh you know is there any common mistakes and any genres that you feel are completely over saturated at the moment uh i think the common mistakes one uh i was trying to think about this because this is one of the questions you asked in the email i've seen lots of mistakes but i couldn't think of any commonalities sometimes it you know it can be anything from just being not prepared to talking too much about the team and then leaving yourself 30 seconds to talk about the game right stuff like that yeah and all the stuff that we've talked about get your game out there as quickly as possible be interesting be

be passionate um but be also be yourself you know i think that's really important to be sincere so um yeah that's that's not really an answer to a question i think no i think that i think that actually is an answer you know like some of the common mistakes that we see or at least i see in feedback on the pitch is things like you know like you say going on too much about things that aren't related to the game and they're not leaving yourself enough time so that's on the structure side of things or maybe not telling you people what the usp is and maybe focusing too much on the competition so i think you know um these sorts of elements are good but does anyone else want to jump in either on the is there something you're seeing way too much of or any sort of common mistakes that are being made uh i think john i think sorry go ahead jake um i think on the mobile side um sometimes the focus can be a little bit off so we get people pitching to us saying you know we think on the monetization side for the ads you know we'll be having this kind of ltv and these kind of cpms and really kind of trying to dig into the metrics and a lot of the time it's from a small team that

maybe don't have as much experience in the monetization side and if you're looking into that very early a lot of the time it's very different to what a publisher is going to be able to get out of your game on the mobile side on that on the ad monetization side so understanding what the publisher is going to be able to offer for you or cover for you and focusing instead on pitching the elements on you know going through the elements that they might not you know have as much understanding of like the actual game concept itself and kind of future plans uh in terms of development can can be a bit more crucial at least on our side yeah yeah i think you yeah you basically said what um differently it's different words what i wanted to say like i think one of the biggest mistakes and i've been on the publisher side as well is if people just talk and don't listen um and that that is really really important you have to have these antennas out there and pick up what's happening on the other side it's not just about you it's about that other guy next opposite to you that you actually

pitched to on i think that's really important also what i always liked um and that might be old school have a question for me um it shows it shows that you relate yeah stephen i agree have a question i think kathleen thought this before as well or somebody said about um also have an ask from the publisher don't just it's like a job interview you know don't go into a job interview going what am i going to get how much you're going to pay me what to pay you know you need to you think about you go okay i need to ask about you know the breakout room and and all of that so ask about what else you know what am i going to get what's the unique thing that the the publishers got pitched to you as well you know it's business development for them you want to they want to give you you know it's their business basically they need you so what do you want from from them as well as their funding if that's the only thing but you know

what what else what's the deal breaker in that relationship going to be and it's not just death funding even if that is a factor or not yeah yeah but yeah yeah so i think that we all agree on the fact that the perfect pitch doesn't exist otherwise so uh yeah and it's actually quite personal also i mean um what k said i like it as well i mean um having some questions ready for the publisher is also something that is very useful because that also will give the developer an impression of what the publisher uh expects from the developer and vice versa so um perhaps it's a bit old school but i think um no i don't even think it's old school okay why do you say that actually it's the old school come on but yeah another perfect pitch doesn't exist but we can still give some tips and hints uh still yeah well thank you everyone unfortunately we've run out of time but

i am going to ask one last thing of you before we end and that is of course we've got big indie pitches coming up next week you know we've got the you know mobile one which is a range of sponsors and obviously our season sponsors kwali we've got you know shin your sponsor and you'll be judging on our pc and console one on the tuesday and i'm just gonna go round the table i'll do it in reverse so i'll come to you first kathleen but i you know i want to hear if there's anything motivational that you would want to pass on to any of our pictures in here or any of our developers who might be pitching in the coming months we've got pitches uh every single month on the mobile side and bi-monthly on the pc side until we can get back to physical so yeah kathleen anything motivational you want to say to the developers who've been watching this and soaking in all the information i said first thing i would say be don't hesitate don't hesitate be be honest and be yourself during the pitch uh try to smile as much as you can be yourself and yeah again uh don't hesitate submitting your game because it's so important and publishers and judges are

out there waiting for you so uh yeah shoot away yeah and then jack uh yeah i think the same you know have a lot of enthusiasm about your your pitch it's your baby and if you can get the publisher excited about it as well that's fantastic and uh if in the long run you it doesn't work out don't let that be a blocker you know get straight back on it pitch another idea um we'll always look to kind of be moving forward with it yeah and then shin um yeah not much to add beyond that i think just as long as you're excited about the game and uh that should hopefully come across and just like when you're making games it's easier after a while to to forget what's exciting and fun about it because you're just in the in the weeds um and if you need to kind of regain that into your enthusiasm then show it to someone that hasn't seen and that could actually just be uh a publisher and then it will remind you kind of why you like it and then you can communicate that on onwards other people because that's uh yeah that's that's so infectious as well

yeah okay yeah um go go get him uh yeah get out there people want content so everybody's at home so they play a lot of games which is awesome um be aware don't get discouraged uh be aware of the the math behind the pitch on our success rate for any kind of deals that we start that successfully lead to a deal it's between four to six percent we're doing this for a long time uh six percent is actually pretty awesome um you will get a lot of notes that's the name of the game eventually you'll get a yes yeah yeah and then and last words to stephen uh just don't don't take great uh back to what cases but don't take rejection personally it's a business decision um and so you know don't let that mute your um enthusiasm because you can do stuff that we can't that's why publishers need developers yeah fantastic well thank you to all of you for uh you know

giving up a part of your afternoon to share all this advice i think there's been loads of actionable stuff and i think you know we did our best to get into what is a sizeable topic with only an hour of course i want to say a massive thank you to uh to quality as well because you know they've helped support the digital big indie pitch and obviously through that creating opportunities for all you guys who are watching uh you know you support that throughout the whole year and i've also made this round table happen so thank you very much and uh yeah i'm looking forward to seeing well uh four of you at next week's next week's uh pitches possibly even you jack we'll have to see who's representing quality next week but uh you know we'll definitely be seeing quality there at the mobile one uh but yeah for now thank you all so much thank you i think there was a really excellent pitch and i'm looking forward to seeing you all uh next week but yeah thank you very much thanks sophia thank you thank you