Not Just Discord: Minimap Builds the Next Gaming Hub

Um and that we have over 160,000 games in the system.
So that's basically any game starting from like year of 2000 early 2000s I think.
Hello world. Welcome to the Pocket Gamer Podcast with your hosts me Brian Baglo and the missing in action Miss Peggy Saltz. Peggy, it has been an entire summer since I saw you last. How are you?
I am well. And you're right, it has been a while, Brian. I was like, "Oh my, here we are back after the break. There was a lot going on and Gamescom just came and went." Speaking of talking around the world, that's what we have here. And it's the power of social brought us together. I found our guest and he isn't just well he is a gamer obviously but he has a different type of a gaming community one that doesn't just talk about games it actually tracks the

actual time we spend playing them he's also like us he's a podcaster he's for the indie developer and he's an expert in turning insights into action he's based in Korea so George Shong it's great to have you here you are global officer chief global officer officer at Mini Map. Uh we'll talk about Mini Map in a moment, but you're also coming to us today from Seoul, I would imagine.
Yeah, a little bit south to Soul, but it's basically it's basically Soul Gar.
Hello everyone. I'm George. I'm like Peggy said, chief global officer at Mini Map and I'm also a podcast ho podcast host. It's called Quest Played. Um we invite indie game developers. You're in there.
We love talking with them, you know, sharing their stories. So that's what I've been doing a lot.
So George, it's great to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us. But before we jump in, I I've got to ask, you're running a growing platform, advocating for developers, supporting indie developers, as we've just heard, and hosting your own podcast. Now, you

joined Mini Map in 2024 as a community manager, but I believe your career took quite a few turns before that. So, how does this all come together and what you're doing now to give indie developers a global stage?
So, I actually have worked in the entertainment industry. I would say I worked for a professional basketball team here in Korea. Game and sports has been my thing since like I was teenager and obviously that has helped a lot because gaming is one thing that I cannot let go of. It's I mean I have a 5-year-old but I still play games so like you know you just can't let go of it. It's just I love it. And
you're among friends George. There is no judgment here. I have an 8-year-old. I know more about Roblox lore than Dave Kazuki [laughter] on this.
Yeah. My my daughter doesn't play yet, but she's too young for that. But obviously when she grows up, she'll probably play some Mario Kart with the

dad and uh yeah, all fun stuff. I'd love to hear some of the ideas that you have around the differences you're seeing in the regions in the gaming cultures. You know, for example, how US and uh Korean gamers express their identity or how they join in communities.
Um I think the one the biggest difference I would say would be like how serious people are about their like gaming data. uh in Korea it's they don't like keep track of all the games that they played in an Excel sheet but in US I've seen many people who like doesn't have who has never used Mime I guess uh but they just use an Excel sheet to keep track of everything play time what platform they played it and all that and they just love sharing that or bragging about it achievements and all that but Koreans are not into those they're more

into like leveling up within the games like oh I'm like level 200 whatever I have this awesome item or I can do like well on PvP and stuff. So I think that was like the biggest difference and I think that's where we have decided that mini map should actually expand in the US because they're very very you know interested in getting their getting access to their own gaming data. Um, I think that was the biggest one. And on Mini Map, if you sync to different gaming platforms, you can have everything in one place. So, that's very neat.
Fantastic. And I guess this this whole sports stat approach is something that Yeah, there's an entire subset of gamers out there. I I will admit this is this is not how I approach games. Um, but I have a lot of friends, especially here in the UK, who are big fans of Football Manager. So, as in soccer,
um, and to me that is an Excel sheet

with some graphics on the front.
It's ridiculously stat driven. So, I understand it, but I'm equally confused by it. But given those those differences and that kind of exposure to this global market, what's one behavior or mindset that's really changed the way that you approach growth and engagement? Is it that stats approach or is there something else? Um to be honest, um Korean gamers are very like they're not sharing, you know, their gaming experience to the social media platforms. They probably would love to, but then they have very limited like platforms or places they can do that. they don't go ahead and share everything they played on like Instagram or other places, but on in the US like you know they're very open about like what they play or what they're currently doing in terms of you know their personal gaming experiences and all. So I think that was

one uh different mindset that I had when I'm uh when I was hitting the uh the US market. And also there are serious gamers in Korea too. Like in terms of like the population wise I guess their US is obviously bigger. So they have variety of different gamers. So like each individual have like different gaming experiences that they want to share versus Korea is more like we all go play the same game that's very popular. For example, League of Legends was popular. Starcraft was popular. Um, a lot of people play MMO RPG games because that was a big hit back in the day. So, um, that that's that's one mindset that I had differently um, when I was approaching the US market.
What did you find the most um, surprising because that comes back into I would imagine how you shape your platform and how you
approach your global

growth and reach. I mean it might have been surprising that uh that Korean culture is such a hit now in the states.
Yeah. Yeah. I try to listen to what our users are saying like you know the people who are already on board with mini map what they have been suggesting because obviously it's a there's a cultural difference between Korea and the US obviously in the gaming industry as well. I try to give them, you know, spaces where they can freely share their experience or upload stuff. So, we have our own gaming journal where you can just basically use it as a social media like a diary I would say of your game, a gaming experience. Um, as well as obviously the reviews and star ratings, those are basic ones that everyone would use. But I think uh journal is uh one of the things that a lot of people like because people don't people sometimes just want to you know screenshot the best moment of their

gaming experience or you know brag about killing this boss and just upload it on some I'll upload it somewhere. Uh so we've given them the space for that.
What mouth is it's basically like I don't know how would you describe it? when I go out to um talk to people, I would always say datadriven community platform for gamers.
Okay.
So, basically like letter box for games or Goodreads for games. Um that kind of explains it a bit because we have the social side and the data side. Uh we have merged those two. Um yeah. So you know and we haven't seen any gaming related um platform like that. Either it's all about social media or if or community or it's all about data or Yeah. So
yeah, we we have a we have a world where

your fan base can be as a game developer can be distributed across
multiple social channels, multiple forums, multiple kind of uh closed or open or public or shared um spaces. So I take it mini map is kind of trying to consolidate all of this in in kind of one package. And
yes,
when you when you talk about the data side, is that is that where the value comes for developers and publishers, is it is it kind of allowing them insight that they would otherwise have to go and track Twitter or X or, you know, Facebook and LinkedIn and and Discord, you know, two dozen, three dozen different channels. Is is that am I right in my thinking?
Yes. For publishers, uh we have a lot of business partners here in Korea. What we can do is we can specifically target audiences based off of their needs. Like for example, um I mean a lot of publishers still um

run their ad campaigns on Google or Meta or sometimes Tik Tok, but they can't target people who like JRPGs. Like can't do that on Google. Like obviously you can't like or people who rated four stars on I don't know Elder Ring or who people who played Elder Ring franchise in PS5 or something like that you know.
Yeah.
But we have all the data so we can specifically target the audiences that they're looking for. For example, we did a uh an ad campaign with Sony in Korea when they launched the PS5 exclusive title called Stellar Blade. It was initially PS5 exclusive. So obviously you would need to reach those audience who owns a PS5. Uh that's like your initial thoughts or because there's going to be like not many people who are going to buy PS5 just for that one title. Um so then we can target those people there and we can also specifically target those people who

have rated over four stars on a game called Neoroto which is the game that inspired the director of Stellar Blade to create the game u from the beginning. And so that also made a lot of sense. Um, and we had great results from that campaign. So
that's fascinating because it goes back to what several of our
guests who are more focused on sort of psychoraphics and player types have told us, Brian, you know, is like what I play is what I am. I think it was Alex actually who we were discussing that Alex from the crafts,
you know, how important that is. what that says about me. So, here is another way to look at it and say, okay, there is data captured from what players are actually playing. That's part of the mix. That's part of what makes it possible to to target, but I'd also like to say engage. It's not always about selling something or or is it, George?

Yeah, I think it's about I think it's more about engagement. Um, I mean, just because you are like um exposed to some kind of advertisement that you're interested in, that doesn't mean you're going to be automatically buy the game, but at least you get the attention u more attention from the people who are more interested. And I think um these days gaming like marketing in games, it's all about efficiency. Um we've had so many you know horrible um layoffs here and there. You know, publisher big publishers losing money here and there. So they're all about, you know, re trying to make use of their budget as wise as possible, as efficient as possible. And I think, you know, sometimes you need mass exposure of your game, but sometimes you need specific audiences that you want so that they have higher engagement or hopefully like purchase that would lead to organic purchases. And also we don't want to like from our perspective we

don't want to have like you know ad banners here and there that's kind of annoying for gamers. So we want to have you know make like a fun interactive campaign so that we can leave positive impression uh from the beginning instead of like oh this ad is following me here there here they're like I hate this thing but rather than that it's better to have some kind of fun event or giveaways or all those um events um the publishers want. So, uh we've done several uh campaigns, but I think the one of the most successful one was with uh Capcom when they launched or pre-launched before they launched uh Monster Hunter Wilds. Uh we did a pre-launch sales event. So, we specifically targeted those people who have played the Monster Hunter franchise and all that. Um, so what we did is we created a landing page where people just come in and leave comments about like what they expect from Monster Hunter W title, what they would like to see. If they do that, they're automatically

um entering into a draw of giveaways. I think we did like giving away food coupons here and there. We sometimes do Steam Decks. We did that one with another. Then also on top of that, we gave them um coupons so that they can get discounts when they purchase uh Monster Hunter Wilds because we also have our own uh store like e store where we sell Steam keys
and that went pretty well. Uh I think about four about 4,000 people bought the game um within a month. Um that was pretty big because we're not like Capcom or we're not like but Humble Bundle or
we're not Steam. So
So uh but that was but that was pretty big. Um, and also on top of that, like it drew attention so that new users came in at the same time. Like we made revenue while acquiring new users.
Indeed. No indie would turn that one down, Brian.
Absolutely not. You know, and and and again, what you're talking about makes so much sense, George, because one of the while games generate a huge amount

of data, and we hear this from so many of our guests, Peggy, you know,
can only see what your players are doing in your game. And so all of the culture and community um as it as we said earlier is distributed. So pulling this together in a place where you can actually
see what your what your players are doing, see where they gather um has immense value. And if you can action that, as you were just saying, George, through the sale of Steam keys, then that that's a powerful tool.
And that's going with the trend. Just to unpack this because I can imagine someone in our audience saying, "Yeah, you know, this is a boost. this is extra. I can still do my campaigns, but I can be very targeted when I work with mini map. How does that work? And maybe some numbers so that we understand a little bit more about, you know, how can I build this into my diversification strategy and what can I sort of be aiming for? What's realistic here? I don't know how many members you have or the or the reach. I just know that

you're bringing it global. So, so give us some ideas there so that people in our audience can start to plan and think ahead.
We're still a startup, so we're a small company, but we have about
current user pool is about 130,000 130,000ish. For some companies, it could be small obviously like you know, AAA studios like Sony or whatever 2K they might be like, "Oh, that's too small." But still, that's a big good number, especially
since you know when you're I mean marketing is so precise. It's like
Yes.
There's hits and not many misses.
Mhm. Exactly. Exactly. It's like you have higher chance of, you know, getting a user to buy your game or get check out your game, but the number is still growing. I mean, steadily but surely growing. So, who are you after? What sort of studios and and what uh sort of studios or or even games and genres, you know, is it across the board open to everybody or are you looking for those

earlier on in their journey? just gives us a sense of who should get in touch
if you're interested in like actually running ad campaigns. Obviously a bigger studio might be better because they have the fund for it.
Um but if you're even if you're small indie dev or solo dev, I'm really open to talking with you and see if there's like a fun stuff that we can do together like an event, small event, even if it's small. Obviously, those indie devs would love to have it because they don't have the time and money to do um those kind of events and they that's why they send email like hold emails to like thousands of people trying to see if someone is interested. But I think I'm I'm also have my own network as well. So I'll be willing to you know help out and see if there's some fun stuff we can do together. And also um I don't know if I mentioned this but we also have our own database. So we have built our own database meaning that we do use public APIs from different um platforms but we also can

manually edit delete u add games to our system. So that that itself actually took years of coding. Um and then we have over 160,000 games in the system.
So that's basically any game starting from like year of 2000 early 2000s I think. And also if you if you have retro games that you want us to add to our system we you can manually do that. Each game has a separate game page on our website. And in order for us to actually sync the game that from our database to the actual data that you have on your platform,
we have to have like our own database because sometimes uh game publishers would release the same exact game under different names for different regions, um different dates, uh different platforms. Sometimes they delete it, sometimes they merge it into one director's cut, you know, title or

something. So that's why we have decided that we can't just rely on outside uh source for that because once they shut it down or once they um do whatever they want to then we have to follow them. But since we have our own database, we can we have our protected stuff that we can we can control. Um, and some some indie devs, you know, I think there are like what 20 thou or almost 20,000 games that are going to be released this year. Um, so some some small indie devs, our system or our database don't have their games, but we can manually add that so that they also get can get noticed. They have their own game page. Um, so yeah, they can use that as well. like a a huge hypermarket shopping mall destination for games. It's not an app store, but it's a showroom.
When it comes to communities around games, it's the developer and publisher has always been playing catchup. You

know, they've they've had to try and own the space, otherwise somebody else will own it for them. And, you know, you'll have a Discord channel that you can only be a member of, and so you're subject to the whims of a a fan, and that can flip really quickly. So having a community with that structure with that sort of level of control I guess in the hands of a a third party but a trusted third party I can absolutely see the value. So what what have been the responses that you've been getting from the companies uh creators that you're working with? That's why I think a lot of partners are coming back to us with you know whenever they have a new title. Um, we've been working closely with companies like Sega, um, Smilegate is a big company here in Korea and, uh, Sony. So, um, I think we have we're giving them what they want or what they're looking for, I would say. For our users, they absolutely love it. We're going to give everything that we have for free.

Obviously, you know, you can just come in and sync your game accounts, have all your data is shown on your profile and all that. And uh but people just don't never heard of Minimat before. So they're like, "Oh, what is this website?" Like I it just there's like just you know signing up they they can visit it but like signing up and giving them your gaming account is like a little bit hesitant.
Does it does it date me or even possibly you Brian to think that this reminds me a lot of the Facebook blueprint? You know give people a place to connect, give them a place to be social. I I think we've been lacking a a sort of a cohesive community for games for for years, Peggy. You know, it's I remember way back my the first game I ever worked on, George was Grand Theft Auto um and the publisher set up one of these new fangled forums at the time um where people could go and gather and it was run by the publisher and really heavily policed. And so from the earliest days

of my career, I've been involved in communities, but it's always been
stuck almost ghetto,
you know, spaces.
Um, and now of course, as as we said at the at the top of the show, um, it can be distributed across dozens of channels and, you know, some people love Discord. I find it like slack with ADHD. Um, not the biggest fan. So I I I get it that, you know, people want to share
the their gaming life, their gaming profile, their
you know, their progress and their victories and achievements. Um,
but it's really hard because if you are the publisher, you know,
signing up for uh giving your data to EA never seems like a good idea or, you know, having multiple accounts with your EAS and your activations, your take 2. Again, it just means that you've got so many silos. So, this this opens things up and and you know, a Facebook for

gaming. Maybe you and I are of an age where that still seems like an exciting thing. You know, a lot of people Facebook are now just the enemy. I know,
but I get it. I really do.
I mean I mean what what is your your your goal here, George? I'm curious. We're comparing you here to Facebook. That might be a little ambitious at this point, but you know it
or or indeed insulting, so forgive us.
Yes, exactly. Please do.
Yeah.
Um I think our company actually started off as our CEO or our co-founder saying like, "Oh, what if there's like a actual place where there's like only everything is about games. Um whether games and everyone just, you know, come hang out. That's how they all started it.
So I think that's what exactly what we're trying to provide here. Um especially for the users. I know we've been getting so many positive feedbacks from our users. Um, Korean users have been there for longer than the US users because we opened

the US server in 2023, but the Korean one has been there since like 2018, 2017. So, it's been long and they all really really like love it because it's a place where they can just kind of geek out about all about games, you know, like just talk about games. that doesn't matter like if you write a thousandword essay of reviews no one will like say oh you're a dork or what are you doing here so I think I we're trying to create this place where gamers are just too excited to just come in and meet other people I mean I know there are places like Discord and Reddit and sometimes Twitter but I wouldn't say they're like specifically for gamers yet um Discord is very hard to catch up if they're like you know they're already like groups of people that are very you're close to each other, try to like get into the conversation, you're like
mostly like ignored or your chat just like flies by. So,
well, that's it. It's transient, you

know. It's not establishing a profile and building your own space.
It's just, as you say, you have to run to keep up. Maybe that's that's why I'm not
the back the biggest Discord fan because uh you if you only dip in,
you can you can miss so much. So, what are you seeing with all of these games, all of these different things? How are you seeing the audience change, the games, the genres change, the kind of games that people are playing? Um, I honestly um think it used to be like where games were very um like each game that comes out every year was like valuable and very it's like a unique and special thing back in the day. like you know if one game comes like GTA or two or whatever comes out they're like oh we have to go play every this game but now with what like 20 like I said like 20,000 games coming out every year now people are saying like oh I going to play a game that I like instead of the game that everyone plays

and that's why it I think a place like the place like mini map is very unique because now we can share your own unique individual game experience Some people like to play niche games. You know, a lot of indie games are getting the spotlight now. I honestly like I actually kind of like it because, you know, we have so many creative ideas. Um like who would have thought like climbing the mountain game would sell like 10 million copies, you know, or games like schedule one would all of a sudden gain so much attention. So I think
um we're trying to build the community. I would say like a place like a safe and fun place for gamers
to just you know connect with each other just share their experience and keep your own thing and also we have um you can make your own profile secret so like no one else can see it unless they follow you so you know you can make it as like a secret diary of your of your own. So we're trying to yeah

create a place like that. Do you have some visibility into the player data? I mean within reason it's it's uh you know it is player verified data. Um what do you think about that in game marketing? Are we going to be going that way? Are we early in that shift? Is there something interesting that you've even seen when you look into that data, you know, anonymized as it might? Um I think it I think it'll totally shift that way. Like marketing used to be you know there was like search marketing then like interest marketing and I think now it's more about um actually targeting specific data because with the technology also advancing in many different areas and industries companies are more focusing on the results than the numbers. I've seen so many like you know games that go viral but they don't sell that well

because like you know just because you have visibility or discoverability doesn't mean your game is actually going to sell. So that's like a two different it might be famous but might be well known but that does not mean people will actually people are willing to open their wallet and actually go buy the game. So those are two I would say very different. So in terms of marketing perspective, um I think data is going to play a very heavy role um going into the future as well. Um so George, just give us a bit of an overview of where you're at right now. You've mentioned Steam and a Steam sale. What platforms do you cover uh at Mini Map and what are your plans for the future as the the industry continues to evolve around us?
We currently offer Steam, um Xbox, Nintendo, and PlayStation. We are also planning on adding Epic and we'll

probably try to add uh Google Play as well for mobile. I know Apple you cannot get any information from them, so they're not going to give up any information. So, that might be a tough one unless they change their policy. Um, Nintendo also actually uh a fun fact, Nintendo is actually very secretive about giving away their information, but we have managed to do it somehow, which is which we're very proud of. Um, it's a Yeah, but anyway,
on that that's no mean feat.
Yeah. So, George, let let's flip the mic for a second because as we said at the beginning of the episode, um you're also a podcast host and you have spoken to I think it was around 40 indie developers in your podcast. Is there something that you've learned from speaking to that many studios about how great games get made that you don't think maybe gets talked about enough? When I started the podcast, I had no idea that this is going to be

something that I have this much this much passion in. Um, I honestly learned so much not just about gaming but about like life from all these different indie game developers. Um, these people are like hardworking people who have passion in creating a universe for gamers to enjoy. I have never heard anyone say, "Oh, I'm doing this for the money." They never said, "Oh, I want to turn out to be Bellatro dev or I want to make sell like millions of copies or something." They just want to make enough money to create something like another game.
So, I think what people a lot of people don't understand is these games are actually made by human beings. Um, and also they're people that are hardworking and kind and nice just like everyone else in this world or most of the people in this world. So I think people should

kind of think about that for like I mean uh for a second before they you know write horrible things about the games you know like you know yeah sometimes it just I mean I know like you know being honest is very important like you know criticizing about the game and all that is very very important but like sometimes they're like oh the game sucks the person who made this is probably horrible or something but it's never their intention
and they are very very happy about every single um reaction that these gamers give them by playing their games. So I think that's what gamers should kind of know or kind of think about a little bit before um buying a game or deciding not to buy the game.
Yeah. You know it's we we are driven by passion as as players and as creators. Um, and that passion can flip, you know, and you can get into some
fairly dark places if you're not

thinking about the human at the other end of that. So,
I'm I'm with you 100%. You know, let's
use the passion, use the enthusiasm,
keep that alive. But, um,
yeah, you don't have to be a um, there is a well-known phrase in the internet which says don't be a, you know, but this is a familyfriendly podcast. Yeah, just
yeah,
keep it nice, folks.
Yeah. And also, I mean, giving them feedback is awesome. Like, you know, that's what devs want. Like, if there's something that you don't like, maybe give them a feedback or maybe, you know, say, "Oh, this this part, I don't think I like it or you should probably improve on this one." But I think that's yeah, the best way to give them uh energy to go on and make another game.
I want to leave that in the past. Um,
but then take you into the past and ask you the two questions that all of our guests get before they they leave us. Um, which is what's your favorite game of all time? And what are you playing right now that's obsessing you?

So, give us give us two good ones. I'm I'm expecting high things, George. I won't lie.
Wow. Um, I'm gonna start with uh the game that I'm playing.
Okay. I am actually I started playing Hollow Knight because of the silk song release that's coming soon. I'm trying but it's giving me vertigo. Um so I' I've tried it for 30 minutes or so and then I rested for an hour or two and then I'm going to try again. I'm going to keep trying until I can get it. And also I've been playing a lot of mobile games because of the fact that my daughter is very young and the only time I can actually play game is when I'm commuting. Um so I've been playing a lot of mobile games. I still play Hearthstone. I've been playing that game for over 10 years now. Um 2015 I started playing
uh I played here and there. Um so that's the game that I'm currently playing. Um, but my favorite game of all time has

to be, well, there are many, but like if I had to pick one, I would have I would say Diablo II. Uh,
wrong choice
because it also I mean it it it gave me it gives me a lot of memories. And also, as an Asian or as a Korean, um, growing up in Korea, my parents weren't fond of me playing games at all when I was a teenager. they would not let me play any games. Um, so I would have to like sneak out and go to these PC cafes and, you know, play an hour or two, whatever. But one day, my dad, who has never allowed me to play like, you know, more than 30 minutes of per session, he actually bought me Diablo I actual like physical title one day.
Okay. And that was like so I I I still couldn't believe it. But like at the time I was like what is going on? Like

what is what is it Christmas? Like what's happening? And then he actually bought it. I don't know why. I never actually asked him the reason but I think maybe it's because you know it was big. It was becoming a big thing back then and then maybe he just wanted his son to try it out. So that game is has like a gives me a lot of but I still couldn't play more than an hour per session even if he bought the game but I mean it gives me you know good memories um playing it I mean game itself is also one of the best games I would say
um ever made by Blizzard um
oh yeah
so
yeah it's I I was a big fan back in the day but like you I'm a parent so 90% of my gaming right now is is on mobile. So,
great answers, George. Great answers. And what a what a fantastic show. Thank you so much for being a wonderful guest. Thank you for introducing our audience to Mini Map
and hopefully uh you'll be hearing from many of them as they get in touch to

find out more.
This show is all about how to do your job better, how to make an amazing game, how to market it, and you have a say. So, if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on, then we would love to hear from you.
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