Is Summer Game Fest worth it for devs?

Hello everybody. Welcome to the Game Discover Co show. This is the pilot episode. I am your co-host Chris Plante and I am joined as always and yet for the first time by my co-host Simon Carless. Simon reached out to me to put this thing together. So, we're going to get into the show very quickly. We have an entire format. You're going to love it. But first, I want Simon to explain a little bit of how this happened.
Yeah, and this is this is awesome. I'm really excited about this. So, basically, uh I've looked at doing podcast before. Anyone who's been a Game Discover Co um member or watcher since 2022 will remember that we did three or four episodes of a podcast back then. But we ended up making that a little overcomplicated. It sort of evolved or devolved into being essentially one of our newsletters. It was a really in-depth conversation with with a dev that we did a full transcript for and it just didn't work. So, I'd sort of given up on the audio video part of uh Game Discover Co. But then, I was at a Game

Discover Co offsite which was in Stockholm a few weeks ago and one of my uh co-workers sort of said like why why aren't we doing audio and video? It's where how people consume a lot of information on the internet. And I'm as you can tell from the newsletter, a bit of a fan of text. But uh given that I talk all the time about audio and video in particular being incredibly important to game discovery, the question was why why don't we do this? So, uh I went and thought about how we do it and I'd been interviewed by Chris. Obviously, I've known I've known Chris for a long time uh and he co-founded Polygon and all that good stuff. But he has this great this uh great podcast called Post Game and he'd interviewed me for it and I I'd had a lot of fun. So, I was like, well, this person who also knows like a ton about the games industry, obviously, seems like a perfect co-host to go through all the things we want to talk about about game discovery and trends and how things get get featured. So, yeah, that's the sort of potted version of about how this how this about.
Yeah, I love it. I mean, uh on my end

you're very polite to say we've known each other for a very long time versus you literally gave me my first job in video games media. So, the second you reached out I was both excited about that. And then for me, I am fortunate to have shows like The I talk about games, post games where I talk about people, but I have never really had an outlet to talk about the industry and like how does all of this work? And was just so excited when you brought this idea to us. But, I don't want to burn so much time on our our meet-cute. We should get into the actual episode. So, here's how this is going to work for everybody. We have various segments. We start with the news of the week. This is the three, four stories that you're really going to want to know. From there, we're going to get into our main story. This is the big, meaty thing. After that, we're going to get into the top releases of this week and next week so you're aware of what is trending. And then, we always, again for

the first time in the show, with a question that I have for Simon because like I mentioned, know a lot about games, know a lot about people in games, do not know as much about the industry. So, I always have a question. So, let's get right to it.
Awesome.
The news. Grand Theft Auto VI is real. It seems like it is really actually happening. Not only do we have the the shipping date of November 19th only on PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series. We also now know when the pre-order start. On January 26th on digital storefronts and other select retailers. We don't plan to talk about individual games in this slot most times, but this game is the exception to every rule. And the question that I had for you in terms of discovery, Simon, is we've seen the crowded October. We've seen the the memes on Blue Sky and and X of just gobs and gobs of games all

coming on top of each other. Should developers really be so terrified to publish in November and December or there opportunities here?
Yeah, that's a really interesting question which I've occasionally mused upon in the newsletter but not recently and I think the interesting thing about obviously GTA 6 is it's it's so anticipated but also interestingly not coming initially to PC. So that's one thing to note like if you have a PC first game coming out in in the fourth quarter, you have to worry about people who also have consoles playing GTA obviously but it's it's not coming to PC. So I think that's sort of an interesting starting point. I think that the other thing that I find interesting about this is you know that certainly a whole lot of hype about the game and how much how much it's going to cost and whether you should get out of the way but I don't think people's all all people's kind of views on this are I'm only going to want to buy one game in in the fourth quarter and it's going to be GTA. If

it's that person, then that person is probably someone who was not not going to buy your game anyway, right?
Yeah, I mean the pricing is so interesting to me because there's all the talk of it being anywhere between 60 to $100. We could talk about that forever and probably will on future episodes. But the thing I'm curious about again especially in that PC space is counter pricing kind of like counter programming to sports on TV. Is there an opportunity for someone to do the reverse GTA move the like you thought this game was going to be 40 bucks but it's 20? Like it it it it seems like there's marketing to be had.
Yeah, and and I think that I mean one thing I will say and this is important like I think of a lot of discovery problems around like is this a big category, a big genre, and are there other games in it? The one interesting thing about GTA, right, is there's not really any GTA-alikes that have done that have done well or even tried cuz it's such a difficult genre to to attempt. So, I'd say just

like finishing off on on the GTA stuff, it is important to know it's in a bit of a category of its own. So, you don't have like I you know, like we're talking about pricing, there are no GTA-alikes to think about what I mean, you are competing with GTA, but not in the same genre and style of game. I think that's one important point. But I but I do think on the on the pricing side of things, I mean, I think ultimately, my my view is people's price elasticity is much uh is is much less important a lot of people think, you know, people are like, "Well, I'm pricing my game at 20 bucks. If I only price my game at 10 bucks, I'd sell three times as many copies." And I think the answer is most of the time, people either want to buy your game or they don't want to buy your game. And as a result, uh price price changing doesn't make a massive difference. It is an issue if you're startlingly more expensive than the um than the competition. But I mean, I'm sure you'd agree when you when you buy games, right? Like you have a game on your list and you're not like, "Oh, well, I'll only buy it if it's if it's 20 bucks, not 30, right?"

Yeah. Yeah, now I think I think that's right. I think the one exception here is if the people, I guess, at Deep Silver, whatever, are still maintaining Saints Row want to put it on sale for $2.99, this might be your chance to finally get Pipe Bomb to go on sale in this game that I I I like quite a bit. But I won't I won't harp on GTA the whole time. We have other very big news, which is Epic's State of Unreal keynote had so much news in it. We had talk of Unreal Engine 5.8's release. We had updates on AI being incorporated into Unreal Engine. The thing that really stuck out to me though was this idea of Unreal Engine 6, which is a couple years away, but it's going to be entering beta I think next year, is what they said.
Mhm.
Um that it would be a combo of Unreal Engine and the Unreal Editor for Fortnite. And when I hear that, I immediately think of Roblox. Because Roblox is a

game and it is also an engine. Does Tim Sweeney and the people at Epic, do they see Roblox and it's this engine game hybrid as the dominant threat to Epic's business model?
Yeah, I mean I I think they do and it's interesting, right? Because you know, Fortnite's done tremendously well. You know, Tim Sweeney has a really interesting view of the industry and he's very much got a bit of an idealistic view of what's going on. He's always like, can't we can't we make the metaverse together? Is really is really Tim Sweeney's view and he would like to use Fortnite and Fortnite's Unreal Engine and its tech to hasten that. But often I think he sees himself as a little bit selfless almost, which is which is interesting. But he does see I think Roblox which has a pretty closed ecosystem in in some ways as as a kind of foil to what he's trying to do, which is a much more open ecosystem where I think in their idea, anyone who makes Unreal Engine games, you know, their avatars, the main characters in

those games are easily portable in and out of Fortnite. I think it's his sort of first first step to what he he sees as sort of the true the true metaverse that folks like Mark Mark Zuckerberg were very interested in for a long time before they got distracted by AI.
Is is it reasonable to be a bit skeptical of that? I don't know. It's a bit of a bear hug approach for me when I hear that. Because it is we all want to work together and use Unreal Engine 6. And it is that where does the good intentions and harmony end and where does the business of that all begin for for Tim?
Yeah, I I I don't know and that's the interesting thing about Epic as a company. I think, you know, Fortnite has has done so well for them and they did such a good job of kind of keeping it keeping that going. I think Unreal Engine as a business has been something that that that they very much care about people who use Unreal Engine, but it's not sort of been the main thrust of

their business. So, I think it's it's super interesting that um, you know, as they continue to work out how to grow Fortnite. And I think they've had some issues like Fortnite appears to have a more shooter-friendly audience who are less interested in other genres than Roblox does and Roblox obviously has started as much more of a kid-friendly you just jam around online. There's less kind of gameplay involved. So, I think one of the issues Fortnite has had really is um, it it isn't quite such a wide swath of uh of of kind of player people are open to new play styles. So, I think that's what uh you know, Epic is really trying to push on like like can we get new styles of game into Fortnite? I mean, Roblox is doing that this as well right now. But I yeah, I I I think uh yeah, I think I I think I think that's the difference difference between the two systems and I think Tim Sweeney is being uh a little bit selfless in that he always it is in some ways. Like I think he believes he's fighting for the industry when he does these big lawsuits against uh Apple and Google and in many ways he is. But obviously, he still runs

a for-profit company who need to make money, who have who have great tech. So, yeah, you're right. I think it's I think it's it's like 80% selfless on on his side, but if when you think about the fact that Epic still has to make money, it probably that probably dials it back a bit.
And just one last question here about the Roblox and you talked about the kids making these games that are not shooters. Is that also part of the intention intention here that they want to be able to attract more of these child and teenage creators who are learning how to design on a different platform who will eventually be the future game designers, you know, 15, 20 years from now.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think Epic has been pushing I the real problem, honestly, with you with the Unreal Engine for Fortnite stuff, which has been around for a while now, is it used to be just almost like a straight level editor. And and it's really taken and Epic started from a couple of times where they've sort of I think concentrated a lot on building out

the game and they've been a little slow in building out some of that underlying platform tech. So, the same is certainly true for the Epic Games Store that they're really putting a lot of time now into into platform tech for Epic Games Store. think the same thing's been true for Unreal Engine for Fortnite. It did not have There was all kinds of stuff you couldn't have in it until fairly recently. Like you couldn't have like like like counters counters on levels that were persistent. And so, you couldn't do like a whole a whole bunch of stuff that you could already do in Roblox, basically. So, I think I think I think some of it is bringing bringing things up to speed, but also you're right. I think everyone wants you know, lots of creators making interesting and unexpected stuff. And I think that's really you know, what Epic is hoping to do by continuing to extend extend Unreal Engine and make it a little easier. And also make it obviously some of the things they announced were AI related. They want it easier. And Roblox has has an active platform as well. They want it easier for you to say, I want to make something like this and then it kind of just gets

made for you using
Yes.
AI or procedural generation or whatever. So, I think that's the other push. So, yeah, that's how I see it.
I'm hanging a lantern on the AI procedural generation stuff for a future episode because that could consume all of this and we still don't know a whole lot about it. But there is another news story that I wanted to touch on before the main story and that is what is going on with the UK social media ban for under 16 year olds. And this is due, I believe, in early 2027. I am American, grass-fed, grew up in the Midwest. By your beautiful accent, I assume you are more familiar with what is going on in the UK. Wrongly, maybe? I don't know. You live out here. But what Tell me about this ban and what it means for games.
Yeah, I mean it is interesting and you are I've lived in California for like over 25 years now, so
going to say basically your entire life.

Yeah, it's it's about 50/50, but yeah, it's it's it's been it's been a good while. But yeah, no, I mean I still keep up. I I go back to the UK every year and yeah, it's interesting to see. I think you know, this UK decision to ban social media, which also includes interaction that occur occurs during in games, which is important thing to note, is really part of a continued trend that we have here. You know, obviously obviously the Australian government has done something similar. And and part of it is down to really Yeah, I mean the public is unhappy with what their kids are doing. I have a kid. You know, I I monitor my kid pretty closely to see what they're doing online. And there is a lot of stuff that you know, I think is can be borderline. So, I think you know, you can argue or not whether whether regulation is the right way to do it, but certainly certainly this UK this UK ban is very relevant to games because if it's actually done properly, under 16-year-olds are not allowed to you know, talk to or type to strangers

in games as far as I understand it. And so obviously there's all kinds of games on Steam that have especially from small Indies that have like unfiltered voice chat and all kinds of stuff. But I presume that those Indies are never really going to get round to doing any game level stuff in that.
Lap? I think of all Friends Lap, how would that work?
Yeah, yeah, it's And And And so the question then is um is is the UK going to force platforms to deal with this? And certainly Steam is known for being very averse to implementing governmental changes. Like Like famously they ignored a European Union investigation and got fined additional money because they were like, "We don't even want to participate in this." So uh you know, and even there's some interesting stuff with adult games in Germany where they really just banned them. Um uh Valve like like restricted them when all other options were were not available. You know, Valve is quite quite libertarian as an organization. So yeah, I think this is something we're going to have to watch closely because it's unclear to me, you know, as with stuff like, you know, GDPR was like a a

big deal, but then the actual enforcement of it was spotty and weird and still happening many years after the fact. So the real question here is outside of the large platforms who are obviously targeted, games is a little bit on the side here. So is games going to it you know, is is Valve going to have to do something about this? Like more age restriction stuff and how they're going to prove that? Or is this really just going to fall down to the UK government going after individual devs who have popular games? Or do they not care? It's a really interesting question.
Yeah. When and I I know that you know this, too. I I I spoke with the ESA president Stanley Pierre-Louis a few months ago and was asking, you know, what what keeps you up at night? And this is a big big concern. Is this lumping in of games with the tech companies. That you know, he said we have bills that are trying to get passed where they want to make it so that you

can't have avatars on the internet. Well, one, what does that even mean? But two, that could affect every video game depending on how you understand that word. Um and yes, this problem seems to be at the door stop in the US, too, in large part because we have a lot of politicians who are not familiar with tech at the top level, and then really not familiar with games, and then you can get some legislation put through that that can cause some real headaches depending on how it's implemented.
Yeah, and I was reading about the avatar one, and that's obviously related to a bill about deep fakes, and it kind of makes sense. The, you know, all deep fakes are bad, we should do something about them. But it's it's a great point. Like all games have avatar generation tools. So are you going to get, you know, I I I make I make an avatar that looks a bit like as a politician in in in the WWE wrestling like make a make an

avatar thing. Am I now Am I Is the Is the publisher of that game 2K going to get in trouble now? It's a really interesting area and a little scary, yeah.
Yeah. Well, I want to get to the main story, which is Summer Game Fest. Uh that you did a huge round up of what was going on. I want to talk a little bit about like what Summer Game Fest even is because I will be real with you, Simon. I have been going for a few years now, and I'm still not entirely sure what this thing is. Um and and here's where I'm running into the trouble. I think of E3 as a tool for building awareness with retailers and mainstream media. And then there's some other benefits there, too. Meet and greets and all that stuff. I don't think of Summer Game Fest as either of those things. Uh I think of it as more or less a a pure press influencer event. What What do you see as the function for developers who are

attending? Is it Is it worth attending?
Yeah, this is a really good question, and I think, yeah, obviously you can't talk about Summer Game Fest without talking about E3, and you can't talk about E3 without talking about what happened with E3, which was it changed from being a retail buyer-centric event to a kind of GameStop employees attend it kind of event to eventually they try to switch it to a consumer event with I think some limited success for the amount of expenditure publishers had to put into it. So, I think yeah, the issue is that
[clears throat]
before Summer Game Fest was even even created, um E3 had had an issue with this kind of like what it is. And the answer is originally it was easy. Originally there was a Walmart buyer and a Target buyer and they had to know how many copies of a game to stock for Christmas. And that's the original original reason that E3 even exists. Um but obviously since everything went very fractal and online based, I I think that's all obviously changed. So, so

what I see Summer Game Fest as is people are used to a whole bunch of showcases in the June time frame. And most people watch them on the internet. So, I think there is an argument that any physical manifestation of that I think is awesome. But it's a little uh vestigial to the fact that most people watch this stuff on the internet. Like like there's actually no reason for anything physical to happen in Los Angeles in that period. It just does because it it always did. And also obviously it's nicer to get together in person. I'm not I'm not like anti get getting together in person.
[laughter]
Um but and and I I went I didn't go to Summer Game Fest this year. I um I I went last year and and I thought it was it was pretty fun. Uh but yeah, I I think the the like like the point of the show at this point is really to focus announcements uh and reveals around games. And I think Geoff Keighley and kind of done a really good job. And I do think the Summer Game Fest I'm not I'm not saying that the Summer Game Fest Play Days for example shouldn't exist. I think it's actually really um really really a useful place to see a whole bunch of upcoming games and and and meet with peers. It's obviously fairly

intimate and sort of a little bit invite only. And so I think that's where we're going with most things like this nowadays. it doesn't make any sense for EA to spend five or eight million dollars on a big booth, you know, like they'd much rather uh, you know, spend spend less and have a a more intimate setup where they can talk to leading leading influencers and creators. So, yeah, so I see it as um, you know, but like majority, honestly, it's it's a reminder for people to watch a buttload of streaming showcases. And I think that's really really the key, but then there is some important stuff that happens in LA at the same time.
I I will say on the press side, it's infinitely more enjoyable as an experience and more productive as an experience than E3 ever was. Like I miss E3 and the spectacle of it all, but being able to be in quiet rooms, to not have to bring uh, you know, earplugs because Ubisoft is playing Just Dance at a volume that is illegal in most nations, uh, it is

really really nice. Um, it does feel kind of turnkey in a way that I imagine developers find appealing.
Yeah, and I'd say that's partly because uh, we've managed to strip away some of the excess that happened when I think, you know, the ESA and others were keen to have this be a big physical spectacle. So, in order to have a big physical spectacle, you need to have like attendees to justify the spend and then you end up bulking up your attendees like my mention of those GameStop employees, you know, who would always come. And and then and then it's you do end up getting a lot of kind of like craft around the outside. So, I think yeah, I think the good news is for the physical showcase there's not really not really any kind of like uh, craft or excess there. But obviously, some people are pretty nostalgic for the excess of E3's past, I guess.
Well, a question that I have received a number of times from from studio heads and directors is what is actually worth it. So, there's there's kind of three levels of uh,

marketing spend, I think, happening here at Summer Game Fest. There is the showing up in the actual Summer Game Fest show that Geoff Keighley puts on. There is the showing up at the the Play Days event in person. And then there are all of these other streaming showcases that you could participate in. How much more reach are you getting by participating in one of the like the officially endorsed Keighley Summer Game Fest things versus these other streaming showcases that are that seems to be more of each year?
Yeah, I mean I mean we did some data on this as part of our our big update that's available in the newsletter and the problem here is that, you know, if folks like Geoff Keighley are savvy and they'll pick big games and those games were going to do really good wish list numbers anyway. So, it's a little self-selecting, but we we the numbers say, you know, if you're in Summer Game Fest, it's a median of 73,000 extra wish lists over the over the 11 days around the show. And then if you go down from there, PlayStation was like

52,000, Xbox was like 46,000, PC Gaming Show I think was 21,000, Day of the Devs, which is attached to Summer Game Fest, was 20,000, Future Game Show we actually we actually combined two Future Game Shows in our original reporting, but just the big Future Game Show is pretty close to PC Gaming Show. It's at like 18,000. And then you go all the way down to like I don't know, the Frosty Games Fest or the Indie Game Showcase and they're more like a thousand extra wish lists. So, so I think and obviously some of these are paid and some of these free these inclusions. Not everyone in all these showcases has paid, especially if you have an interesting game that is kind of maybe a little bit more indie like the bigger showcases will want to put you in just because it spices things up. If they just had all big publisher games, then it wouldn't really work. But but yeah, I'd say spend-wise, you know, I do think showcases are really good way. Like lots of people watch them and then there's lots of reporting on them. So, I think if you were if you are in one of these top kind

of five to eight showcases, it is worth it, and it might be a good use of your money, depending on how much money you're paying. Uh but but but you know, I'm I'm a little more against like here's some of the costs uh to exhibit physically. I I tend to think that is is is a little rougher, depending on what pickup you tend to get from it. You know, I think if you're big enough game, it's worth it, but if people are spending, you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars in addition to their um to to their spend to be in showcases, to be in a physical event, it it it depends how it breaks down, but I think you have to be a much bigger publisher for that to be worthwhile.
Totally. Um before you kind of wrap up the segment, where do you see this going next year? Like, for someone who is, you know, hoping to ship a game in fall of 2027, this might be on their road map next year. Is this going to continue to grow? Is it continuing to have value? Is it going to get oversaturated with all these

showcases?
I mean, it's interesting. I I I occasionally chat to Geoff Keighley, you know, he's he used some of our data in Summer Game Fest this year, and one of the things we've talked about is you know, the barrier to entry for making a showcase in this week is essentially zero, because anyone can say, "Hey, I'm doing a shoe a showcase around this time." And then they can, you know, get a Twitch channel going, get some co-streaming going, and then do it. So, I think um the barrier to entry for the non-physical side of things is is near zero. So, I think we're going to see more more. I'm sure last year we didn't have as many We have like 20-ish showcases we we tracked. I'm sure there were not 20 last year. I'm sure there'll be more than 20 next year. So, I think I think we'll continue to see people say June is a good time to show stuff. Um I I'd also say that there's some other times a year that actually are probably underutilized. For example, Gamescom. For whatever reason, there aren't many streaming showcases around Gamescom, and everyone is looking out for game announcements around Gamescom. So, there may have been an over-clustering of

showcases in June, and an under under-clustering around some some other events. And you obviously don't have to be A streaming showcase could just happen. You don't have to I mean, apologies to Gamescom, but you don't have to have a deal with Gamescom to to do a streaming showcase in the same week as Gamescom, right? So, yeah.
Are there are there any around EGS?
Uh only a couple again, and I think I think you're also correct.
It's like such an opportunity.
Yeah. Yeah, I I I do think it is. I mean, some companies like I think I think Future, for example, Future Games Show has tried to get better coverage in some of these some of these other shows, and I think that's smart. But yeah, I think it is. I mean, one of the reasons there's less, honestly, is if I look at a lot of these showcases, they're probably yearly showcases. And so, if you're only going to do you're only going to do a showcase showcase once a year or twice a year, then you might end up picking a really popular time like like not E3 Summer Games Fest. But I think you're right, some of these interesting other areas I think as long as you can get And the question is how you get the word out, obviously, cuz if you just have a showcase and no one turns up, then that

then that's a problem. But I think we you know, we were we were sort of saying uh co-streaming got really important, especially on Twitch and on and on YouTube. So, so nowadays I think the number was on Summer Games Fest like 61% of their Twitch views were co-streamed, which means obviously the streamer often hangs out and is sort of sort of commenting on it at the same time. And so, I think yeah, I think I think increasingly if you if you have good co-streaming reach, there's a there's a showcase called Galaxies, which is founded by an ex-Twitch person, and I think that's having pretty good reach from scratch because he understands co-streaming. So, I think I think that's probably one of the keys. Not nothing to do with physical or LA, but that's probably one of the keys for reach. And you want to find out if your game is going to be in a showcase, you might want to ask them, are they doing anything about co-streaming? What do you think reach is going to be via co-streaming? Because often these big these big Twitch or YouTubers are the people who have the reach. So So you want them to be covering that showcase.
At least once a week I feel existentially terrified about how little

I understand Twitch. And I always appreciate some info and also feel just like I need to go put my head in sand or just you know bury myself in a grave. I I want to wrap up this section and and move towards the end which is the top releases of this week and next week. And we're doing this every time. This is I I and I feel like a child saying this. It has always been my favorite part of the newsletter especially when I worked at Polygon because I could be like where do I need to direct my coverage? What is coming that I am not seeing? So first what were the biggest releases this week?
So this week we're recording this on on a Friday by the way. I think it'll go out early next week. So So this week it's actually been quiet because it's the next fest and I think our next um our next cast is going to talk about next fest in more detail. But people do not like releasing games during next fest because they believe rightly or wrongly I think probably semi rightly

that everyone's looking at the like 4,000 plus demos that are in next fest. So it actually means that people will move their release dates at least on Steam. I think there's actually a UFC game out on on console only actually maybe today. But but you know that's sort of that's sort of set for kind of a different market. But yeah I mean I mean this week actually what I tend to look at is the sort of barrier for me for being interested in the game to immediately after launch is did it get to 1,000 concurrent users on Steam? If you get to 1,000 concurrent users then roughly speaking you might sell 20,000 copies in your first week. You might sell who knows 50 60,000 copies. You're eventually probably going to sell 100,000 copies of your game. So I think that's a reasonable starting point to be interested. And And you'll will discover as we keep doing the segment like like some weeks have 20 games that have 1,000 CCU. And actually actually this week as of right now, there's only four games that have at least 1,000 CCU that launched on Steam this week. And those are There's a game called The Adventures of Eliot, which is I think a Square Enix

title, which which which which looks really
Tails. You want to make sure we give that full beautiful name. [laughter]
Yeah, it's actually cut off on the cuz it's so long it's cut off on the plus back end right now. But yeah, I yeah, I think you know, and that that looks like a very competently done game that will probably do well on console as well. And then the other stuff is kind of like slightly odd a couple of odd semi kind of game, City Car Driving 2.0 and Pro Cycling Manager 26. And And both of those are kind of quite quite niche, but they obviously have people picking them up. They're quite expensive. They're both $40 plus, I think, but yeah, but they're doing well. And then actually a game called Thank You for Your Application, which is published by No More Robots, which is a which is a publisher who I was the I I've actually only ever invested in one one game publisher, and it's No More Robots, because I knew This was in 2017 because I've I've known Mike Rose who runs No More Robots for a really long time. And he he used to work on indiegames.com with me when I worked worked at GDC. So, I always have an interest in what's happening with No More Robots. And this

game, Thank You for Your Application, is made by a Chinese team. It's actually doing really well in China right now. And that's one of the reasons it got to it got to 1,600 CCU. But it's also fully translated. It's really a Papers, Please style game where you you have to deal with incoming job applications. And so, it's And it's actually really interesting. It's sort of dystopian. It's got a really interesting theme. And And I think particularly in China, they're definitely they're they're they're definitely super into it. And it reminded me that Papers, Please is a genre that people don't always think is a genre. And so, I do think Papers, Please style document checking games are are quite under-served still. And that's probably another
I think we'll see more of those this fall. Having gone through a lot of Steam Next Fest, I was shocked how many demos I saw in the Papers, Please mold. Something is in the air. Um, maybe it is anxiety about border crossing. I don't know, but something's definitely happening. Um, in terms of what people should be watching for next week, what's coming coming down to us?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, it looks like at this point next week has one particularly big game, which is which is Sand Raiders of Sophie. And Sand Raiders of Sophie is it's sort of like a I think I believe it's one of those games that was by tinyBuild. It's one of those games where you have a walking and moving base. And and moving base games, because of titles like Raft, have ended up becoming pretty popular. So, it's sort of like it's sort of like co-op squad scavenging gathering, you know, some of its some of its top tags are extraction shooter, you know, the vehicle combat kind of stuff. But, it's and it's sort of like a little bit wild westy as well. And right now, people seem to be into the kind of like alternative wild west scenarios, like Far Far West just did really well. So, it's got yeah, it's got kind of a little bit sort of a little bit dooney, a little bit mechy, a little bit wild westy, and it's been doing really well um, on uh, like various demo or test versions been doing really well. So, I expect that title, which I haven't heard

a ton of people talk about, I expect that title to be pretty big, Sand Raiders of Sophie. It already It already has almost a million wish lists. Um, and and and besides that, sort of there's a there's a few others that have a 100K plus. Um, but um, but yeah, it's actually um, for the week after the next fest, it's it's a little bit quieter than I would have expected, but I think um, you know, a a lot of people are waiting. I think I think launching your game the Monday after the next fest ends is probably a little bit aggressive, and it's it's fine to leave it a few weeks. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, we are at the end of the show, which means it's time for me to do the thing that I always do this time for the first time, which is ask a question about what is going on, help me make sense of things. And this week my question is can Steam tags be saved {slash} what does a Steam tag even do? Because I was on Summer Next Fest or Steam Next Fest. Oh my gosh, these names

conventions. And it's borderline meaningless. And I know that they've been changing things, but if you look at bullet hell, you will find games that happen to have bullets or games maybe set in hell. Uh there is there's not a lot of consistency. Are these tags helping games enough to be valuable or what's going on?
That's a good question. I mean, I would say for for one thing is um yeah, just I'm not I'm sure I'm sure everyone listening to this knows this, but um you get 20 user 20 dev generated tags on Steam that can be modified by users. So, it's important to note like when you launch your game, you will set 20 tags. But, um if your game is popular enough, users will come and suggest tags and your tags may change. And so, that that is one of the quirks of the system and leads to stuff like um you know, people will troll tag psychological horror on games they don't like, for example.

Which I think is is quite funny. And and it does lead to some I I would say it takes a lot of votes to change the top stuff. So, my impression is most of the time it's a little bit lower down the list of stuff that changes, but it does mean you can get tags on there that the dev didn't decide. You can go back in at any time and change the tags again. So, you can go and check and and change it back. But, it's it's a little bit of a odd hybrid system. I think it I think it kind of makes sense. But, yeah, I'd say I think tags are important and it but it's really about how Steam uses those tags. I think if Steam is smart, and I think they generally are, they'll they'll look at stuff that has sort of top ranked tags, and I think that's a lot more relevant. If you go further down lists, you start to get some weird stuff. In fact, the the back end of Game Discover Co-Plus and Pro automatically defaults to only looking at the first 15 tags. We ignore the bottom five, and you can also change that, and that's often what I do. If I'm asking someone to browse in our system for like Metroidvania, I know for example that um Yeah, some people think there's a genre called 3D Metroidvania, right? Uh but it Are you aware of this? This kind of 3D

Metroidvania?
not.
Yeah, so so it's uh it's like um that's Star Wars Jedi Survivor. Some people call that call that call that Metroidvania. And so if you look on top Metroidvanias in our back end with top 15 tags, you will see some 3D Metroidvanias in there. I don't think those are Metroidvanias personally. So so so so what I will do is I will I will click the button which is like use top X tags, and if you filter it back down to only use tags that are listed in the top eight or 10, those games will disappear. So from from our sort of nerdy analysis point of view, we have a way to deal with that with our data. But from your point, like from a someone who's regularly looking at Steam tags, it's a little bit more controversial. I I guess the only thing I'd say is um you know, the top Most of the time if you're looking on a on a page, you can only see the top five tags, and the top five tags tend to be a little bit better, I think. So that's my that's my two cents.
I learned a lot from that.
[laughter]
I I especially the ability for the users to collectively change tags now is the

sort of thing that just gives me like antacid. Like I can feel an ulcer forming um out of like second-hand anxiety. Well, of good things that aren't second-hand anxiety, this was our first episode. We will have more Game Discover Co-Shows for you every week for free on whatever podcast app you like to listen to, you can also get the video version, which is in the newsletter, which is connected to all of the other Game Discover Co stuff. So, Simon, can you please tell people about all of that, where they can get it?
Yeah, I mean, who who knows who's listening or watching this, but yeah, basically basically Game Discover Co is the company I founded in in 2020, and most people read our newsletter, a newsletter.gamesdiscover.co. It has about 44,000 subscribers nowadays, and the and this and the video version of this is going to be embedded in it every week. But yeah, also we we have a whole system. If you if you sign up, we're on Substack, and if you sign up for our plus tier, then you get access to some of our basic data, but we also have a

have a pro tier, which has which is licensed by about 100 100 companies in the space nowadays, PC console game companies. And yeah, that is a whole bunch of data on how well how many wish list game games have, how well that we think games have done. We have an API, we have an MCP, which allows you to use AI helpers to ask questions if you want to get complicated queries together. So yeah, I mean, that's sort of that's sort of our business, and now and and now and now we have the Game Discover Co cast, which I'm I'm very excited about it, and we're going to do it every week until until one of us falls off the face of the earth, I presume.
[laughter]
Which hopefully won't be anytime this year.
I have no plans to fall off the face of the earth personally.
I will also say for the small segment of people who are coming here who have not read the newsletter or or used Game Discover Co, especially plus, it's just endlessly fascinating stuff, and available in a way that anybody can

comprehend. I have worked with a lot of analysis groups, and I've read a lot of analysis data. This is written in a way that is accessible, whether you are a first time wanting to know how the business works, or you are very very deep into it. Also, the tools are absolutely incredible. Obviously, I'm also biased cuz I'm on the show, which I'm wrapping up right now. Um Simon, thank you so much for for being here with me this week, and I will see you and we will see everybody next week on the Game Discover Coach Show.
Awesome. Bye, everyone.