Google Lead Shines A Light On The Top Trends In Gaming Today

[Music] hello world welcome to the Pocket Gamer podcast with your hosts me Brian Bago and our Doan of data Miss Peggy and Sals and it's going to be a data Centric episode Peggy I believe it is I'm gonna geek out I'm gonna geek out a little bit Brian because you know I love this you and me both because you can only build a business if you're not blind and you're not blind when have data to guide you yes you can always say which data but we have special data because we have it in a way from The Source right because I am thrilled to welcome a man who's got a great nickname I heard it I was at Gamescom they called him out oh hey it's the insights guy so he is the insights guy he is the data Guru and he has a knack for turning numbers into narratives which we're going to have as well so let's welcome him Mario kashvi

the central eastern Europe Mobile gaming and apps sad at Google so when I said the source Brian I meant it yes yes thank you uh hello and and thank you for the invitation Marius it's an absolute pleasure to have you on board thank you so much for joining us you've been with Google since 2007 that's a long time that's a long time to get deep into the data which you are doing you're constantly uncovering Trends around the market but speaking of numbers right they don't just play in your professional life and you'll appreciate this as well Brian you've got a big family in your own way uh between children and and pets marus is able to has that life balance right that professional work life balance he is also the father of five children which is unique in our industry and so how do you manage to balance such a a huge datadriven career with such you know deep Insight with the Dynamics of such a such big family I think it's on the on

one side is the topic of the time it's like I think whatever time you would have it would be almost not enough so that's like I think you need to uh get used and leave uh like working having not enough time uh on one side and then I think on the other hand trying sometimes to to do to do the tradeoffs uh uh sometimes you uh need to work a little bit differently so for example like even when I work with the data uh it often happens for me that like you know the the most advanced types of like analysis I'm doing for example in the almost in the night once the children are like in the bed and I have full peace at at home so so I think uh again again requires a lot of adjustment I think again uh uh it's it's it's challenging to have big family but it's like you know amazing as well yeah so it's it's kind of you know this uh uh

this combination of both yes so I think again it's not common in in uh in our industry but I think it show that it's doable as well yeah clearly you understand challenges personal professional managing life's many challenges also managing the data that we're going to get to and I thought keeping with this numbers thing so yes let's limit ourselves three three is the magic number three is what we're going to do we're going to do genres Geo and growth I love alliteration too it's that little bit of journalistic joy that I get right little bit of fun so we'll start with genres because on your blog and your recent first half of the Year report you talk about significant growth in specific genres and you'll remember this Brian because when we had at the time dat AI now sensor Tower they pointed out similar point you know it's strategy it's action puzzle casual um but you have data that shows they're

outperforming in particular on iOS uh outperforming Android therefore in the process what is the driver do you think behind this mariio if we look at the market it's growing more by the revenue they by now downloads so it's more like we are growing by the by the growing monetization by improving uh uh the adding some incremental Revenue which means that of course there's really high focus how to actually make more value every every every download and again goes in two sides either on one side we have casual user how to actually make him stay longer in the game and that's usually the case with with those casual a gandras where uh we we even for example with match Stree started from very simple games and then it was more and more meta and more like very uh much uh more complex gameplay then on the other side like know uh coming from the genres like strategy when uh there was very high value per user but there was very small

potential number of users yeah and by opening this door to uh much easier experience and then trying to uh to add this more and more user experience step by step that actually of course it's expanding the market heavily that's why if we look about the genre if if we look about iOS of course uh uh what was happening is that in general this you know idfa topic uh added a lot of changes on the challenges on the growth s that's why even if we look at the data for example for 2022 2023 even special beginning of of the year most of the marketing for example paid marketing uh in general in in iOS was happening mostly in us or in very very big markets so that's why actually even if you look at very recent data on iOS uh something that was main driver of this iOS Market us is not really uh anymore because we see that actually that strong growth of iOS is coming from markets like UK okay like

even Asian markets like Malaysia Thailand even Poland for example has a very strong uh like more than 20% year-over-year growth rate uh in terms of Revenue on iOS and gaming yes so I think uh that was combination of both sides yeah on one side this trend on the genre side but then on the other side a lot of changes in terms of how actually uh much more experience in terms of iOS marketing uh was able to to be driv on the market versus uh when this uh you know Ida uh topic was just starting and a lot of companies were just afraid doing any bigger uh user acquisition in that space I remember because a lot of budget got shifted to Android at that time as well Peggy actually that's actually really good point because that actually created uh pretty strong competition on Android side yeah because like when the when those the budgets were shifting more to

Android side then actually uh the markets like us be became extremely competitive on on the Android sites yeah so that's why actually when a lot of companies were looking for incremental that's they were starting to experiment more and more more and more with IOS as well because even if if it was uh more challenging than on the other side there were sometimes less players competing uh for the same user especially on the paid marketing so so given these shifts how can developers adjust their strategies to kind of maximize the opportunities in these genres and more to the point should they is this something that you think is a passing phase or is this our new reality so that's that's kind of the new new reality we see if we even look at for example uh there are really big shifts for example in hyper casual that exactly it's moving towards this uh more more like hybrid uh casual games that are actually users can play uh for longer and part of that uh really big

part of this hybridization is for example like you know looking for additional business models like know trying for example for the players who have the inner purchases to maybe add some ads for like some some of the users or on the other side even if the if the game is uh uh uh like in up uh in a focus then adding some more more uh more more ads yeah because if we look for example if we look at uh inap uh advertising and in in in inap uh uh advertising and ads uh markets actually growing faster than in our purchase yeah so that's why actually it's uh I think big opportunity especially for smaller players where uh if they like focus on that more then actually can uh uh get additional Revenue so that's fascinating Mar and it kind of um corres responds with what we've heard from so many of

the guests that we've had on the podcast over the last several months which is there's no one- siiz fitall anymore you know every game is different every uh region is different but again I'm I'm I'm going to come back to is this is this the new paradigm is this how it is now or do you think this is something that you know might revert back to maybe the earlier phase where in up purchases were were kind of the the primary driver of Revenue I think they are still really like big part and I that I think they will like genres there are still will be like the main source of the revenue again if we look at genres like you know strategy role playing so in those genas uh that are still very often actually actually they are the biggest like gaming genres like in our purchases really either dominate are almost uh only existing uh but of course uh on the other side if we if even if we look at the growth of the revenue that is actually in general higher than in Emerging Markets than in TI one market Market those are the markets where very

often this advertising site is like know three sometimes five times bigger than than in a purchases yeah so that's why like you know uh uh typical way to grow the revenue once you are more and more present in those markets really to to put more attention for example to to us yeah uh sometimes it's coming from the specific uh uh uh types of the types of the games yeah because uh again let's see if we have some uh countries like uh uh like India yeah where for example uh the research shows that what is interesting uh uh people if they play games in some way they are feeling guilty because they are feeling that they're wasting the time so then they are feeling better they're feeling better if they have the feeling they are learning something so that's why for example for the reason uh uh games like puzzle or like logic games they perform

better in those in that country and because they are very ad-driven games then uh by definition is those two pawns are kind of combined together yeah that makes sense you know it's there there is uh there are a number of countries around the world where fun is still seen as a four-letter word and just merely having fun is is somehow beneath uh many people so I I take your point entirely yeah I think you know if we look at the like top 100 games by Revenue still like the biggest Focus for them would be would be uh in up Revenue yeah and it's now and that's rather the the the future as well but like the more we go down the line uh the the more usually Focus I see on the on the out side because usually it's easier to add some incremental uh revenue from just you know maybe more expansion to those emerging markets and and I want to kind of pick up on that and actually look at some of these regions because um as Peggy said at the top of the show

we're going to talk about genres and then GEOS and so when we look at some of the different regions around the world and things like the decline in Gaming revenue from tier one markets like the US where are you seeing the growth and and you know what are you seeing Studios doing to respond to to this and changing strategy to tap into these you know New Opportunities so uh like you know what we see in general like over the last month even those smaller tier one markets were growing faster than for example in us because like even in t one markets you have markets like know UK for example Germany uh where actually the the revenue is growing pretty nice so that's one one part of the story uh then second part of the story of course are those uh emerging market so we we talk about like countries exactly like uh uh like know Brazil Malaysia of course like Arabic markets like Arab Emirates or like know Saudi Arabia those actually bringing uh more and more uh

incremental revenue and still of course they're much smaller than us I just look just recently comparing the percentage of the revenue coming from uh countries like outside of top 10 between begging of the year and and and now and increase by two percentage points yeah so so again we see that happening uh uh already of course it's still not big scale but I think especially from the perspective of smaller developers are looking for this uh ways to to grow and not necessarily fight against the the biggest ones that's actually interesting opportunity especially now I think the the technology uh development of AI makes much easier topics that were extremely challenging in the past like localization good translation adjustment of the of the game like know changing the game based on the specific users Behavior changing the game based on the specific path of the users oh we talk about what AI does but it also is you point out it makes it makes it yeah it's

easier to localize and pick up on this incremental Revenue um how should gaming companies be balancing that because they want to be strong local but they also want to explore the new markets depending on your Runway and how much money you have on the back account either you can uh choose uh uh like bigger and more challenging battles or like smaller ones yes so of course if you uh if you cannot really plan for the next uh like you know 15 months or like two years because at the end of the day that's the life and uh you you rather need to focus on those more like shortterm or maximum middle term improvements then of course like you know focusing on those markets that you know uh pretty well already so for example if you know let's see pollen on the market then maybe adding the markets that are actually in many cases similar

but still growing let's see Romania for example uh uh or like czechia uh uh can be really interesting in the same in the same way in Southeast Asia yeah like Thailand or or or Malaysia or specific segment in in the game like localization or like know changing the the behavior of the game and again even uh recent advancement in the tools are helping with that even for example in the play console just recently were added some additional tools that help to localize for example uh listings or they help to create you know better description exactly based based on the I so you can choose even very simple strategies to improve your your current uh uh Baseline uh or on the other side used to be known that strategy games are played by the users who are very deep into the game they play many years uh sorry many many hours per per day but there is very small percentage of them yeah but but we see more and more those games that

actually got the idea okay not necessarily maybe if we try to have this beginning of the game easier maybe we extend the the approach toward other countries that were not seen uh really important for for that uh for the for that genre because no one really F about that because everyone had the idea that okay it's mostly Asian people for example who who who play the uh the uh the strategy but not necessarily is the is the true if you have some uh time and resources to think about up front what can be really in the future I mean that's interesting I was just talking to someone who's gonna be on our show Brian he was telling me that uh hardcore strategy but they were just playing a little bit with AI and had some time and thought anime why not try that right as part of the ad creative and it actually works so now they're bringing in a whole different audience so there's a lot of

uh a lot of interest in Creative opportunity and you as a creative person uh you'll appreciate that there's uh there's a good side to this yeah hugely hugely and this is this is one of the things that I don't think people outside the mobile world the mobile games World necessarily appreciate which is the audience is so vast and phones are in every single purse and pocket that you have the opportunity to get games in front of people who would never you know buy a console or pick up a joystick and finding ways to tap into those audiences um is actually incredibly creative incredibly joyful and it's putting games in the hands of people who who would not have picked them up otherwise it just requires a completely different and as you just said Peggy creative approach to your user acquisition yeah and I and I think in little bit different approach towards the risk because at the end of the day how you usually now you could see how those games are created are actually done in two different ways the

first one more like I think uh uh something that is more well known when you when you look at the different tools like you know data I or maybe sensor Tower or like different different available tools trying to understand what audiences are playing specific types of the games and you are just trying to make it make it better uh the other ways is you you are like know you you start to ask questions okay what are the motivations behind that playing what other maybe types of the games that can can fulfill the same motivations if there are if the people are not playing specific types of the games why it's happening and of course that second way is just uh more challenging is harder very often requires uh uh you know faster iteration very often requires bigger resources as well and of course uh much braver approach towards the risk well that's why we have you here mariio because you're going to bring us the data that's going to shape that I just want to have a quick followup up on GEOS before we move on to the next area and

that is you made it very clear it's either sort of the neighboring countries to the markets you know um or it's the ones that we all know about we're hearing so much about Mina we're hearing so much about growth in Southeast Asia so do you have some insights you could share about not only where the growth is but where it's also affordable for our audience when we when we look at the resources for the Indie we do not need to think only about okay it's affordable only to create the game but how actually I will I will promote it because it can happen that for example in those uh very well targeted uh uh campaigns that are for example focused on potential payers the cost of CPI in us can be up to like no 40 USD for example per per per uh per user yeah so so that's actually is is is is big uh of course barrier in the uh in the in the growth and exactly it's

coming to to to your question uh uh Peggy it's like know it's a little bit uh uh case what battle I can play and what battle I can really challenge having my my my resources for example let's see in the strategy uh actually very interesting market market for the Strate strategies for example Vietnam uh it's one of the top markets for the for for the genre because it's extreme popular genre in that market uh uh because uh uh even if once the people started gaming there they started to gaming from the internet cafes and then by definition from the beginning they got used to from like you know player to player games even if you see some ODS from those uh regions uh of course if we talk about uh like casual genres uh we see like no very interesting growth from from for example uh lat markets of

course if we talk about about Europe I was mentioning like no Poland a few times because exactly uh in Revenue per download in demonetization in the recent years it's actually moved very significantly from very like average Market to actually pretty significant in in uh in many many genres of course uh uh I think it's still not there yet but we see some influence even coming from like African markets like know Nigeria again not very strong in terms of monetization but if someone is actually monetizing the game by odds uh then we see that very often in those Emerging Markets the ratio of the uh acquisition of the user versus the ecpm from the US is actually very often better than in tier one market so that means that very often for example for the for the

players that have like ad monetized games even that Nigeria uh it happens that actually is quite quite important market and then of course it's even deeper around the markets like India yeah because again uh people got used some time ago that if you created the content for India you were doing in English then just recently that you had much more content in IND in Hindi but like if you look at the India you have actually a few very big languages that are kind of popular in different markets like know Telugu like you know so so that are very often uh by the percentage versus the percentage of the middle class like tuugo for example is actually has much higher percentage of the middle class versus the percentage of the population in the total that's why even a lot of for example movies in India is done in like either Indi onug that means that finally if you are starting to go deeper with the specific Market I see more and more actually players thinking

about okay maybe not only localize for for Indi but maybe I localize for example for for too my app uh and my marketing and I think for for me this is one of the key things marus which is that you know there's again it's this individual games individual markets individual genres localization and so on it it you cannot just put it out and hope for the best anymore you have to be able to understand your data you have to be able to react to that data and and you know react appropriately because otherwise you are just taking chances that you don't need to but it all comes back to knowing your numbers exactly yeah because it's it's it's it's I I think it's like no I think the main case and really important to understand the the the gaming is uh highrisk High reward business so so that is actually really like you know uh risk is very high but

reward is very high as well which means uh it's not really the topic for hobbies anymore yes so like it's really serious because like you know even if you are not serious the other are very serious and you are actually competing with them so so finally this professionalization that happens on the product side on the marketing SES uh that start actually quite uh uh many years ago and over the last years uh was happening at first in tier one markets then we see actually more and more happening even in the mergin markets yes so even if you if we talking about those mergin markets very often uh it was EAS very easy to enter those markets like five five years ago because you could you could be only one of the first players that you localized that game pretty well for that market but even that is not really the case uh anymore because whatever game you take uh it's high chance that you will find quite good number of competitors doing that pretty well already for for that specific Market so we covered Goo now

we're going to go to the third G growth and you saw exactly the reverse of that because you saw a decline you saw a sharp decline of Revenue in June and that took many by surprise but then again how dramatic because you know summer is always that thing where people aren't really doing what they usually do which would be play games there outside so maybe that's part of it maybe a little seasonality but um how dramatic what's the drop what's the driver June is like kind of double digit uh uh decline like in some markets for example like in in in us uh those markets that were growing very healthy like for example in us uh they started to grow uh much at much lower rate in the last months especially in this June but again I think it started even from the beginning of the year so that means exactly uh what we discussed that it should give even give even more motivation to look okay what what are my

potential growth D growth uh rate drivers for my game Beyond just those uh uh top markets I think August and September will be like really really interesting to see still like the whole year uh like if you if we if we combine it still kind of positive because it gives like around uh uh around three four% year-over-year growth rate so still we are kind of positive uh uh with a little bit better situation on iOS than Android uh especially on the on the on the on the revenue side so still growth there is but but again I think uh uh uh it it shows that that industry cannot grow forever yeah so it's like there is specific uh on one side little bit competition between the UPS in terms of Revenue because we see more and more uh for example Revenue happening on UPS as well because more and more more UPS is adding some subscription or some some

additional business models that are competing in general with the with the money we spend the internet uh then of course I think it it even adds this more discussion around how to actually look for this additional uh growth driver just beyond this inup Revenue because again it got to the specific point and it's huge business bigger than Cinema uh bigger like many other verticals but it's not growing as far as as as it used to be which means that exactly is forcing towards this maybe how to really uh add some more revenue from USS maybe how to uh try to uh uh leverage more platforms for for for the gaming company because if we are if we have strong IP for example on mobile we could leverage that on the games for PC and console and actually it seems from the market that exactly how Market is actually moving uh towards on both sides yes so from uh PC console to mobile and then from Mobile

to uh to PC PC and console then of course like there's discussion maybe and we see that as well uh how to actually create this uh this gaming as part of the bigger entertainment industry like you know uh some potential revenue from swx from like Leverage the IP that we created and I think that actually creates exactly much much bigger question how actually the industry can grow not just B raing on on enough up Revenue that uh is not growing as used to be I'm just thinking Brian you know and it's really catching on is the discussion that we had for example with kaps right and uh having a comic was was a way of again you know being in a different platform so there's different platforms there different approaches where do you see the opportunities mariio because you talked about platforms so mobile console console mobile maybe alternative stores I don't know

maybe media we've got our example of a comic book for for a game where do you see it actually good points yes like know for example those alternative stores and like web shops yeah I think is there is actually getting hot topics especially in the in the core genres yeah when like significant Revenue comes from the uh like the users that you have for a long time already yeah so they're really loyal so maybe you could actually try to uh uh uh monetize them a little bit uh uh uh differently and better having very strong relationship uh with uh with them uh then I think again it's it's part of this uh bigger discussion around the AP how to actually try to create something that is significant that can be uh utilized in longer way either by for example uh building the games that have some specific IP already so uh or like know how to actually for example use the IP to decrease the cost

of acquisition because people know that IP so then uh they will uh they recall to the appss will be better so finally then you will have uh cheaper cost of acquisition versus the versus cost versus competition and then I think that the platforms that that we we discuss is something that again uh happens maybe with with the with I think with the uh some kind of Aster that I think is that in general it seems to me the growth of the content uh coming to the PCN and console is even stronger than on mobile because on mobile at specific point uh like companies realize that actually it's very hard to build new games so then I think that growth of new games even quite strong kind of decline so so more and more players try to extend the life of the game you know add more liveops like you know trying to actually

you know add more extension of the current game rather to to create new one versus on the on the PC and and console where at specific point I think it became kind of uh uh something know on the market or like at least understood on the market and like people people a lot of people started to think that that PC market and console Market is easier than mobile uh then I I started to see actually many many studos started to create uh uh much more PCN console games than in the past uh and actually I remember that I was uh uh uh like know helping with uh this uh kind of gaming accelerator in uh uh in in Cyprus there was quite a few submissions from Indies and I think like you know more like than 70% of them were for like PC console games yeah so and again all of them they have projection

to be built in like know 12 to 15 months uh so I think that means that uh especially among the smaller players this growth of this uh content for PC and console is actually uh really strong which means that actually will increase the competition in that space uh quite heavily versus if we look at the data I think uh uh like know top uh like no top 40 games is like responsible for like know 60% of the play time uh uh on uh on on like you know PC and console yeah so it really highlights something that I think is becoming ever more you know polarized in the games World which is that so many developers have the technical and creative skills to make something but this whole publishing side of things you know choosing a monetization model choosing your business models user acquisition all of the things which are your primary challenges on the App Stores where your Compu against you know the Spotify and the Facebooks and the twitters are exes

of the world um go away if you decide to work on PC and it's premium content money up front if your player doesn't like the game you don't have to care and so it's becoming a choice but it's I don't think it's necessarily an informed choice I think it's because for a lot of people who are coming through you know the games courses at the various universities and colleges around the world they're being taught how to make a thing they're not being taught how to to monetize or sell the thing I I think like know part of the case is that overall uh on the mobile space we have much more data available so that's the reason why why I think uh some uh Trends are understood uh uh uh a little bit uh uh better and broader uh then on the other hand I think uh uh there are specific even communities inside the mobile space like know really huge growth committee like and we could see

it exactly in Gamescom when we on different different like parties like exactly people working with with data uh from like with growth from Top uh top gaming uh uh companies and top gaming Indies where actually it's really huge crowd exchanging uh the knowledge uh uh like freely between between each other so I think in this case this this pulls pull uh of that knowledge is is is pretty strong that creates creat a little bit uh sometimes more innovation in that space I think in the uh in the PC and and console uh it used to be only about product uh and just recently I think it's more and more about marketing as well yes so so I think that's a little bit uh big big thing that is coming a little bit from Mobile to the uh to the to the PC and console console space and that's why uh uh probably like know a lot of companies will face bigger and bigger competition because something

that was uh like obvious and common in Mobile I think will face more and more in the in the PC and console space as well and they come together I mean that magic happens and we saw that also as well at gamesome which was very dominated by you know PC and console is that when you understand marketing then you can create a better product it's not isolated and it was never isolated but now sort of forced to come together more and more which is fascinating that they have to work together exactly and and and I think because those projects became bigger and bigger which means it creates like on one say business risk because it's just specific cost that not necessarily will be paying off uh then I think there is even more motivation to uh to think about this uh PC and console uh uh development more in the faces like in the in the way it is in the uh in the mobile yeah when like you know it's

obvious now that you know you start from this day one day one retention like then you you look at the first metrics then based on that you decide if you proceed with the uh with the game or not and I think it's starting on the on the PC and and console space as well yeah not exactly from those metric because they'll bit different ones exist and there is again a little bit less possibilities uh that creates quite interesting new wave of competition because the the length of the like know the lifetime of the product will be longer which means that you will be even competing more not only with the new releasing games but with the uh with the games that were released kind of even long time ago and still they're trying to engage the user bring the uh bring the new one and on the other side they will bring more experience from Mobile in terms of how to actually use the data to to optimize specific experience maybe even adjusted experience for the specific type of the

user how to actually make uh uh that user experience for the PC in console less linear and maybe how to adjust it to uh to uh like no different uh different context yeah once we have more of this adjustment uh then uh maybe uh those games will actually get uh uh more attention in the Emerging Market as well because they will be more uh aligned with the user goals in those markets yeah that that sums up very nicely well here the nickname right oh yeah the Insight guy that was what we wanted we wanted insights from the insights Guy Brian that's what we got we did indeed we did so Marius before we let you go we have two questions that we ask everybody who comes on to the podcast to bring it right back down into sort of the world of games the first is what are you playing right now what's exciting you what's living on your phone or your laptop and second of all what's your

favorite game of all time oh those are like two hard questions actually yeah so actually I play a lot of games uh uh testing them uh so usually I'm I don't play kind of uh long time uh with them because as you remember I have five children so if I would play more then I would not do uh uh anything anything else actually interesting is like the uh my favorite game was in very very old times when I was playing like uh I I think I played it for the first time like the game on Atari uh it was like the the plane when I was like you know doing the like flying the plane and doing different challenges and I think this first experience when you play for the first time and you see okay something like that exists it's it's it's very hard to to actually combine and actually compare this uh this first experience and this like okay this AA

moment with something that you have in the in like later even with much more advanced much much nicer content it's true it's true it's that gateway drug isn't it it's like the first time you get that aha moment and like oh this is new well Marius thank you again it has been genuinely fascinating and you know it's like we're we're both data Geeks Peggy and I so you know perhaps at some point in the near future we can get you back and uh can drill down further and see how everything's changed because the one thing I'm sure of is that everything will have changed that's definitely a date because we can check Brian if his Trends were right so yes we will have you back oh the challenge is on the challenge is on okay Marius it's been a pleasure thank you very much it was I hope uh it was good discussion uh was a really good time this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing

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