Gaming Market Insights with Goldman Sachs & Lightspeed Venture Partners

hey folks and welcome to the deconstructor of fun podcast I want to start off by thanking everybody here you the audience for making the the EB with istanb event with Google come true it's a Sunday it's a couple of days after the event and uh it was absolutely fantastic we've done it three times in a row and and every time it's just a lot of work but when it happens when you see the faces when you see the people it's uh it's it's I don't know gratitude might be the uh the the right work that I'm searching for and nevertheless it wouldn't be possible without you the audience so I just want to thank you for that and talking about you the audience um we have a pretty awesome podcast coming your way so two guests on this podcast golden Zachs a top investment Bank in the world not just game industry in the world and Lightspeed a top venture capital in the world also one of the best Venture Capital firms now now in this podcast we

are going to talk about the market the layoffs Venture Capital publisher models AI web 3 and what will happen in the next two years and I think these two guests these two who represent these two powerful companies are they are the money behind our industry and if you know want to know the truth according to the saying you have to follow the money so I hope you enjoy this podcast and and the uh the insights that the two gentlemen uh more Inspire lent from Lightspeed and himal ther from Goldman Zachs are um sharing if you're watching this on YouTube himal video disappears toward the end don't worry about it he's still online he will still be be talking but you won't be seeing him um and then last one Public Service Announcement GDC is around the corner at the time of this publishing it is week from now a little bit over than week uh there's at least four four different deconstructor fun

events happening most of them have been over subscribed uh but if you want to still sign up for them there is a sign up link in our newsletter and you can also learn more about the events through our slack group and and Grant access uh from there sorry for being a little bit tired um events are fun but also really draining and um yeah I hope you enjoy this podcast and I hope to see you um at the uh upcoming GDC so ladies and gentlemen himal ther and Morris fire lent so it is uh it is a Saturday uh it is about midday now in the uh West Coast and uh it's an evening here in Helsinki and before we start uh I'll have the pleasure of introducing both himal and morit both both returning guests on the

podcast so uh for those who haven't listened to the the previous episodes uh himal ther is the managing director Global head of gaming and interactive entertainment investment banking at Goldman Sachs that's a long title so what he actually has done uh out of all the you know exhausting list of deals and Investments I'll just Trace few so I'm micros helping Microsoft to acquire Activision selling roio Zinga zenax scopely just out of the few helping 10 cent to invest into Ubisoft Lego to invest into epic uh as well as IPOs such as Roblox unity and iron source so um if you want to watch the full exhaustive list you can find himer on LinkedIn uh it's a it's a quite the uh the uh the best of the best list so welcome back to the podcast appreciate it and and yeah and then we have uh morit uh an always guest an always person that we referred to the investor extraordinaire uh mspire

lens partner at light speed uh Global leading Venture Capital firm more than $30 billion do in asset under management and over 200 exits across United States Europe and Asia because exits are the ones that matter right Morris they don't hurt yeah especially if you're a venture capital firm correct so uh so enough of of uh of me promoting you but let's let's talk about something that I'm I'm thankful for for the two of you joining and that is what is going on in the market because I I doubt I doubt there are many people who know more than the two of you uh so so truly a pleasure to have you both here and I wanted to start with something very simple and something that we can spend a full hour on but but let's uh let's try not to and that is the market and more specifically where are we in the market today uh I'm I'm curious is like what is happening on the macroeconomic side so of course the inflation has been uh seemingly um going

down and the interest rates are not at least going more up as it seems and perhaps even going down um we can see that the stock market is at an all-time high if we look at the uh the US and on the other other hand if we look at China it's not looking that great and uh I'm just curious like hamal starting with you is like uh what are you seeing in the market and and more specifically how are these uh macro factors affecting consumer Behavior sure and thanks for having me by the way um always good to be on a podcast with Mar to we used to work together in the old days um so so look I think you know if I rewind back year and a half ago or so when I was last on this podcast um maybe even two years ago things were in a very different spot right I think um we had seen a big growth pull forward uh on the back of covid and

um you know things were hot handedly in gaming and consumer internet everything along those lines and since then last 18 months call it uh we've had a a very strong uh bout of inflation across the global economy candidly um central banks have obviously increased interest rates as a result and you know I think we've had about a year U maybe a year and a year and a half as of essentially pressure on the consumer um which is translated into weaker Demand right in in gaming in particular especially on the content side but even on things like hardware and other areas um and you know whilst inflation has been reducing and is lower uh than it was you know it doesn't solve the fact that everything's more expensive and people's wages haven't really caught up to that yet so as a result I think what you've seen from consumer Behavior particularly with respect to gangs but also broadly is you know people are being more disciplined

with their wallet right they're spending overall a little bit less uh but the distribution of their spend has changed a lot and is focusing on their core franchises and gaming is not one big Community there's many different sub wees and genres that people like um but they've rebased to their core franchises and also you know a lot of focus on you know spending money on new games where they know they're going to get great value um and that tends to lend itself to classics uh you know games that may have released four five years ago but were 10 out of tens and you know that means it's a it's a tricky environment um if you're a developer trying to push new pipeline into the market in this market we've also had a amazing bout of Supply in 2023 I think from a gamer's perspective you know what better year to be a gamer with all the Fantastic content that came out but you know people have to have to choose where they spend and I think um I do think that some of that is coming

towards a heed where for you know better or worse but unfortunately there have been a lot of uh layoffs on the back of this reduction in demand in the industry uh and it feels like that's continuing uh hopefully that comes to an end soon but there you know it's essentially a rebasing demand has come down Supply needs to contract accordingly and you know on the other end of it we may end up with whilst a smaller industry perhaps a healthier one um into 2025 where things look a little bit clearer and um you know a bit more normal perhaps yeah those are those are really good points actually we're going through few different data sets from newu and and the other one from dat AI uh one looking at PC and console the other one looking more from from a mobile perspective and what we saw on PC and console is actually despite the uh the launches of so many great games there were clear Blockbusters like from DIA to um to zeldas for and so forth the

actual console Market did not grow and it seems like the the spending just shifted from games as a service model and from the subscription Services more to premiums because as you said they were prioritizing those uh franchises that everybody was playing at that point and on mobile we kind of saw similar type of uh change of spending uh where uh people were at least seemingly spending L on inapp purchases yet they were continuing to spend on apps and especially the utility and social media and streaming apps were the ones that were kind of holding on and being an elastic in terms of demand so definitely um um that's that's a very valid point uh Morris um do you have anything to add on on this topic or do you want I think I mean move on because we have about 10 topics that's right uh I'll try and segue here too but I think it's you know easy when you spend all your time and attention in the gaming industry to kind of see this as a gaming topic or gaming

problem I think you know what we see in gaming both on the consumer spending side but also on the investment side you know VC activity and funding um it's by and large a tale of I would say consumer technology Trends and it's probably two-thirds driven by the interest environment and then by tapering Co Tailwinds I think what specifically gets added for gaming on top is also tapering metaverse and web 3 Tailwinds from 21 and 22 so they exurb slightly um I think you know if you want to use layoffs also it's another metric here it's it's probably around double the exposure with like 6% of the industry affected over the last two years versus 3% in Tech more broadly um but the two are tightly interlocked as as HL laid out um so we can we can talk about macro Trends we can talk about gaming specifically Trends I'm sure you wanted to talk about

layoffs too yeah uh before we jump in into the uh the layoffs of course that's a topic we need to cover I wanted to kind of ask like something that himal point out is specifically that that the consumers spending consumers are more choosing where to spend and they're choosing the sort of a safe safe franchises if you will how does that how is that seen in the investment Behavior like in like what is the type of investment Horizon that you're looking at and how do you interpret this data is it just that you believe that in the future we will go back to users being more exploratory as the uh disposable income increases uh or like how does this affect your investment um Behavior or or uh investment I mean I think it's it's a bit of a trap to kind of look at the the year the past year the the future year for us like most of our funds are 10year funds with typically two optional one-ear extensions and so really the question is what's the ACC environment in 6 to 8 years from today which is hard

to predict um and so you kind of come back to what I think are still very strong fundamentals and sector Tailwinds there's a lot of um generational Tailwinds in gaming right every generation now grows up to be Gamers that wasn't the case a couple years ago um while also Gamers who have been Gamers continue to be Gamers gaming is not necessarily for the young it's for people who grow up with gaming and at this point that's pretty much everyone and then you have technical or technological Tailwinds um including Ai and so I think it's really even with I think a hiccup or or a bit of a roadblock in 23 24 it's really hard for me not to be excited about gaming in the next 5 to 10 years in interactive media I'll just uh dig deeper a little bit on the the VC climate uh before the the S layoffs topic um a lot of the the sort of a public public messaging that

you see on LinkedIn and others is that VCS are not investing right now and they don't know what to invest in and kind of like they should be investing right now but they're not they're not doing deals and sort of this sort of a like a negative sentiment around the Venture Capital um what's you know how has this environment changed the investment thesis like what are you seeing overall in the VC market like of course your fund is a is a very unique it's very big it has a long-term Horizon but there's a lot of gaming specific funds that are not you know part of $30 billion US it's under management so what are what are you seeing on the on on the VC front and is it um when do you see a change when when more money is is going to start flowing in again into gaming I'll I'll give you my candid take and maybe it's a little bit different from most of the things that people read out there but I I genuinely think the biggest problem in

VC and gaming VC specifically is that somehow for the last 3 four years we've held gaming Investments somewhat of a different standard again like drawing on the consumer analogy these are startups where they're very much subject to a power law like to return funds you need not just companies that do well but you need generational companies not not nice to have you need to have invested in startups that upend incumbents and you know really being in the business of trying to build high quality funds with consistent performance now over 20 years and I've shown you our receipts prior right we're not trying to be the most active we're not trying to run an incubator spray and prey approach I think uh for us it's per partner making two to three Investments per year and then fully dedicating ourselves to those companies with the expectation that there's a small chance

for them to become a $5 billion plus company and Frankly Speaking if you look at Studios platforms Tech Investments over the last four years personally at least I find it very hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel for a lot of them to make the thesis how this becomes a A5 billion company and obviously there's a lot of great games that are being built and and I'm happy to see them get funded um but the sheer reality is for for someone like us you know trying to return a$7 billion fund and you know our LPS are are expecting three to 4X on that fund so let's say Forex needing to return 28 billion to LPS um at 5 to 10% ownership at Exit we need to aggregate around 250 to 500 billion dollar in exit volume so for me to be part of a a billion dollar company or even A5 billion dollar company that's good but it doesn't materially turn the needle and so every time I look at an investment I hold to that standard and

then I guess the beauty for us is also not having those sector specific funds um but having large Vehicles separated by stage um but that spend across GEOS uh that spend across sectors will basically holding each investment to that Global and cross- sector standard is is this a company where we see a clearly articulated thesis uh for this to become a510 Billion Dollar Plus company if no it's probably not worth the investment at the time and obviously most of these will still be wrong but I don't think I don't think that's the bar to which gaming Investments and and particularly Studio Investments have been held and I think that the vast majority of Studio Investments are actually a better fit for the traditional publisher model and maybe never lent themselves to venture investing you know I think that for

better or worse in 2020 2021 2019 Etc that there was this secular Focus right on gaming being this portion of their entertainment space which was just secondly taking share from other areas you had huge demographic Tailwinds Etc and so a lot of capital you know came into the space and the bar was lowered as a result but you know the gaming industry always had a relatively healthy system in place right for investing in new projects and it was the publisher model or strategics Etc we're sort of reverting to that a little bit um or at least the balance there in I do think that you know to your point of consumer Behavior I think what this last 12 months 18 months has suddenly shown is that gaming is not immune to you know recessionary impacts or recession like impacts um it you know the consumer are uh you know a rational Economist right

when it boils down to it and they're very smart with their own wallet and I think as a result there's a lot of companies now and I think you see it across the board and CED will be my counil to most companies out there who are creating content is you know the game this year is going to be who can drive a sustainable business model to survive through to 25 and 26 when the content slate is going to be lighter and the ability to break through the noise if you're a new game is going to be better um there are companies who will manage that there'll be companies that won't and candidly the industry you know Will has to get to a place of a little bit more rationality in order to get back to equilibrium right on sustainability um and that may take a little bit of time but I do think that that's it's necessary and if I'm a if

I'm a uh if I'm a new studio or if I'm a existing studio for that matter you know I'm very mindful of putting dollars to work on on new pipeline perhaps it's short-term isth thinking probably is to some degree but it comes from you know at the end of the day there's a inclination to ensure that you're generating returns or you're doing it a sustainable way and I think we're in a market where maybe the pendulum swings too far before it comes back to normal right on some of these things and that's the nature of capital markets um and what companies do is in response to them uh but I do think as a result we're probably entering you know a year of austerity before we enter in yearly people think G maybe I don't have a strong enough pipeline maybe I should be doing something about that and it kind of swings inbody other way so we got a bit about and himal talking about IPO since

that is something that you're very familiar with uh IPO Market is is you know largely considered dead especially for for gaming companies can you a little bit explain why it is seen that way now and when it might revive again later like what are those factors in in the business or in the macroeconomics that have to change to to get the IPOs flowing again I mean I would actually disagree in that statement personally the idea that the IPO is dead um I think that's true I think that the IPO Market is actually open I mean we've been printing IPOs um we did a few last quarter we just had a few across various uh portions of the economy and we just had a healthcare one uh this week um so the IPO Market fundamentally are investors in a what has been a relatively stable valuation environment and financing environment for about 12 months now um is the capital there yes you know is

stability there yes and therefore valuation is rebased sure but people are you know people who who have the need uh to get liquidity or uh you know sold employee pressures in that way or just raise capital for other purposes the market is there for that the quality bar is high right so you tend to see it for companies who are already you know profitable at scale have clear growth mever perhaps aren't too driven by uh secular Tailwinds or headwinds but have you know increasing market share or whatever they're doing so there's some industries that fair better for it now um and certainly in Tech media Telecom we're seeing it as well so I think we'll see a bunch of that probably through mid year after that I think people may you know have eyes on the elections that are coming towards the end of the year so you may get a bit of a pause but um the market certainly there it's it's it's not in its full forced in the way that

it was back in 2020 2021 but it's recovering gaming IPO specifically I think that's actually more of a function of are there that many gaming companies that are IPO a and IPO ready right um certainly there are companies that could go down that path um whether they whe whether it's the right time or not I think it's more of a business related question than it is a market related question um my personal view is you know I could see more of it from gaming companies in 25 uh maybe 26 but that's not to do with the market that's to do with which companies are out there who might consider it and when's the right time for them based on their pipelines and things that they're doing and other you know initiatives that they have in place and where it sits on the priority list uh do you think that that um that the larger investors you know the the the those who invest in in uh in public companies the the retirement funds Etc

institutional investors do you think they are or you would know but are they burned on games a little bit because we had so many IPOs that uh didn't go that well I mean the market did shift pretty significantly with a lot of different um you know Industries but gaming specifically we saw a lot of gaming companies not only Esports but a lot of different gaming companies that are really not doing nearly as well as when they IPO just few years ago yes and no because you know most public market investors don't just hold gaming stocks right they hold many different sectors um when you actually look at the Cort of companies that went public in 2020 and 2021 whilst yes the vast majority have come off you know there are other sectors software internet Etc which it come up more um so you know I think it's a relative game rather than an absolute one and

toor's point earlier it's kinded because of the macro in interestate environment right cost of capital has gone up valuations have come down um whether we like it or not you know every single one of us is a macro investor um and so I think you know I think fund funds are smart enough on that front um to to know the difference where I think there is a lot of discernment right now is between high quality companies lower quality want you know there are some companies who responded to this macro shift in a very constructive way for shareholders um whether it be driving efficiency you know focusing in on on key growth areas cut in slimming down in other areas which you know has impact on the other stakeholders which is employees and these type of things right um but there are other companies who haven't done that and perhaps have those issues or perhaps some structural issues or inefficiencies in their system and they suffered more that's kind of where

you see you know when the tide comes out you start to see who who's kind of got their act together and who doesn't uh I think that's going to be the focus of 24 now right um as people do the slow uh you know execution work basically to get their companies in tip top shape for the future growth period oh so so let's talk about efficiency so part of you know driving efficiency is unfortunately layoffs and then we've saw those coming in in 2022 for General tech companies and in we made the the prediction that in 23 the layoffs will hit the gaming market and unfortunately they did pretty hard and seem to continue and and probably switching uh even now from layoffs to closures during the uh the 2024 um can you talk a little bit so let's let's talk about let's start with with Mor is can you can you can I get

perhaps your view on the startup the startups and how they are approaching uh layoffs because you know we in 21 in 22 everybody was just focused to to hiring it was incredibly difficult to hire people all kinds of leeway all kinds of packages were given you could work out aali if you want as long as you work for this company and suddenly it's shifted where Employers in the uh in the driving seat you got the investors who are telling them that we need more in efficiency productivity 24 is going to be challenging 25 might be difficult but we need you to be in a fighting shape in 26 so that's uh that's that's what I'm hearing from the Outlook but but please Mor as a as an investor and a board board member in many of these companies how are you viewing this yeah I mean as sad as it is obviously there is a bit of an opportunity window for some of our startups that are well capitalized um and you know that have taken even in these most recent rounds of layoffs from this year um taking in Talent uh to

augment their roster um even when I started at light speed uh early 2023 for the rounds I've done since on the studio side um believer and Gardens I think we've raised um we've raised large rounds but but these teams have also taken above average delution in those rounds so there was already a focus on really making sure that um you know companies are well funded uh for what looked already like the onset of a bit of a a winter and a tough time to come but also in other cases with inw world for example building an additional War chest for um for acquisition opportunities and you know coming out on the right side of this unfortunate Dynamic um I think you know a lot of these Trends whether that's layoffs whether that's um investors reconsidering their strategies and maybe

also quantity of of Investments like o overall like if if you want to summarize it under one theme it's really just return to Quality even even if you see where layoffs have been made and it's not across the board it's often in kind of like ancillary initiatives where maybe companies grew a little ahead of themselves at at the collect double or triple tail wins of 21 and 22 like that's that's where cuts are being made right now and I think from an investor perspective like this return to Capital uh return to Quality also just comes down to you know what I just mentioned holding every single investment to that high standard and asking yourself whether that can really be a company that changes the phase of gaming because I think for Venture capitalists that that is where the bar should be um and to me doing like one or two Studios per year always felt right people can look this up that that's what I've been doing pretty much since 2020

um half of these studios are on track or have already raised 100 million dollar or more so clearly there is something to that approach Theory craft rate based inor methodical believe or Gardens uh super interesting projects in incubation right now um which is by the way that that would be my only criticism on on on an otherwise excellent article from medball uh the this week that we haven't seen the best VC Studios come out yet very very few that have launched right but like most of them I think were funded in this 2020 21 uh era and so let's let's give let's give the best VCB Studios also the benefit of the doubt um be before we draw conclusions around whether this works as a venture capital category because my firm belief is is still absolutely yes um but you have to be selective as as everyone is being

right now in in many different ways yeah so so it has gotten easier for Venture backed Studios to hire top talent not only well because of the layouts in two ways just because there's human like there's people Talent available and the secondly probably because the sort of a picture that working at one of those big Publishers is a safe place has eroded and and actually if you are a venture-backed and well-funded Studio that is probably the safer place to uh to be at during uh Market downturn would you put it that way I think I I don't I don't know there's if there's if there's safety in general I think you want to make sure in in general you want to make sure you surround yourself with extraordinary people I think that's probably a good Ru rule of Thum whether whether you find

those in a corporate environment or whether you find those in a startup I think both can be very viable options and and people have different preferences and also risk profiles so um I wouldn't give a blanket um recommendation for startup life either got it um himal looking at the the layouts from more public company perspective like why is it that that so many companies that are profitable are choosing to do layoffs is it purely to to focus like what kind of signal does it give to to shareholders and and why that sort of a signal is important to do through layoffs yeah and look it's um It's Tricky right this is a very it's a very sad thing right and it's it's human um and it impacts people's lives to be honest um but but I think for if you're putting your rational investor

hat on and you're looking at the forces that have come at play a lot of this is somewhat you know it's it's a symptom of the overall macroeconomic climate gaming industry is not alone in this right look at every internet company most software companies pretty much every other sector of of the of of the the world and I think it's worth seeing forest and trees on that which is okay we went through a period where you know we had a lot of stimulus coming to the economy on the back of Co it gave people a lot of disposable income and it drove a lot of demand when you drive a lot of demand you want to meet that with Supply and Gaming's not immune to that so people want more content people hired a lot and then you service that content and the byproduct of that was 2023 which was one of the best years ever for gaming content now you slip down the other way with the stimul stops the world opens up again it has The Hangover from Co and

the consumer starts spending all the money that they got and drives a massive inflation cycle everyone for and demand comes down and Supply as a result has to contract in order for these companies to drive kind of just health of companies Beyond not you know just shareholder value is that is that a byproduct of a lower growth environment absolutely um is it is it a decision that these companies want to take no but is it a decision that they have to take in order to candidly survive for you know through the next iteration of all of this yes and that applies you know to big companies small companies midsize companies and here's the kicker if one large company doesn't do it the investment dollar is slow to the ones that do and so you know it's actually it's actually pretty difficult if you think about it for companies not to make these

type of decisions even if they don't want to um and so you see it from large public large private um you have to readjust to a new market Dynamic and New Market size um now does that mean that if I'm you know if I'm uh laid off somewhere that I don't have a great skill set that could be applied I think some of Morris's Point hold true right there's plenty of companies that are in that investment cycle and you you find roles that you can to them but I do think there's a portion of you know the job market in the space which will have to rebase I move to other Industries uh because there won't be room um and that it's a very tricky harsh reality typically these things don't play out as quickly as they have we haven't seen an environment where interest rates has moved as quickly as as they have for many many decades and so yeah it's a very unusual type of

Swing but in our case it's happened in basically under two years yeah yeah since the 70s and it's interesting to to look at look back at the uh those inflation rates and and kind of comparing what happened then uh so that it doesn't sort of happen again because back then if I remember correctly the uh uh as the uh the inflation started going down due to the high rise of interest rates the FED pulled down the interest rates and the inflation went even higher so that they had to come up with new set of interest rates that push them even higher and it was almost like a lost decade so when people are kind of expecting that the interest rates are going to go back down soon I kind of wonder that they won't do that mistake again and they would rather hold the uh the interest rates for a longer time at a higher pace and through that we'll have this environment for a longer period of time and it's not going to be over in soon yeah and it's worth remembering the 70s was 50 years ago

most people who were in The Games industry weren't working then the games industry was barely around men anyway didn't even exist really right so you know people don't have that context and why would they right and I think when it comes to interest rates you know I think that our house view at least is is they they will decrease but not as much as you know people hope back down to zero and uh certainly not on a time frame that quick so yeah yeah yeah it's just my problem of studying economics so it's it's a that's the context that people should have or try and keep in their minds as solist and it's some of these things it's not personal really I think it's it's yeah it's a function of markets yeah yeah so even when it starts that's what I'm thinking even when it starts looking good the uh the central banks will still hold the interest rates longer just in case they won't do the the double whammy and lose a decade um anyway let's talk about something something uh more fun which is the AI

and this has been of course the uh the focus of all the Investments whether we're talking about public or or private and uh it seems like so I'll give the context of of me trying to set up a talk at the upcoming Istanbul gaming Summit uh which actually himal has attended unlike uh Mr Moritz anyways uh so so March 7 anyways um and one of the uh one of the uh the talk that we're going to have this year is with Google Deep Mind as well as with the uh with an investor in a studio and it was surprisingly difficult to find uh an investor and a studio to talk about Ai and specifically the uh the use of AI in games like there were a lot of different cases but they weren't there were more of a stories than they were um an actual uh winning scenario so so a brought this sort of a question in my in my head is like um we

can all agree that AI is going to be powerful in the future but it seems like it's more of a story right now unless you're a hardware company Where It actually drives your sale because everybody is preparing and we maybe don't know how the story will play out this is the kind of like the thing that I'm thinking in my in my head um Mor it's maybe since you've done one of the uh if not the biggest AI investment in a in in in an a in a company that does AI in games like how do you see yeah I must say I'm a little surprised to hear that um I think the vast majority of our game studios and and their engineering staff by now has embraced co-pilots for development quite heavily um most are using generative 2D and 3D at least in in in prototyping or you know anything pre-production um some are leveraging AI in production ction so maybe you're just asking the

wrong people um I think in terms of value creation it's it's really hard to see how it wouldn't change the face of gaming I do genuinely think this is a platform shift and I know it's a super lame and cliche thing for BCS to say so I I'll have to be extra convinced to kind of like double down on statements like this here but I think this is really akin to the introduction of the internet or the introduction of the mobile phone or you know introduction of cloud um and the value is already demonstrated it's it's different from uh web 3 for example where the vast majority of the value is still to be proven out and and to be demonstrated right like it has I think it's it's hard to say which has the higher ceiling of the two but one's working right now and and one is doing valuable things today um what I will say I'm a little bit

surprised about is that um and this this was kind like one of the core Theses of a of an article that we pushed out last year which I think was on the front page of of Google for AI gaming or gaming AI for the better better part of the year um usually in platform shifts like these the companies that really knock it out of the park are the ones that create completely new previously impossible experiences yet if you look at what most AI companies are focused on it's trying to help devs build things better faster cheaper it's like marginal improvements it's kind of like trying to trying to Port you know existing workflows to a somewhat new paradigm instead of really starting from scratch and building for that newer new paradigm from the ground up and so you know inworld is a great example for that right like it's really were really good at creating these photorealistic environments I mean

Unreal Engine five and I'm sure six is is amazing um but you know creating creating a photorealistic Manhattan is kind of lame and boring when you can't also fill it with one or two million New Yorkers with dreams and hopes and aspirations and background stories and means of interactions maybe if no one no one else is even logged in so intelligent NPCs a gentic simulations Emer behavior and runtime like that is something truly and fundamentally new and somehow so far at least we've we've settled for the fact that that's just not something that happens in video games even in open world video games like GTA um and so I I'm personally very focused on those type of companies the beauty also of of light is we have investors our senior partners that have invested throughout those previous platform shifts that were actually there when the internet started to become a thing or

when mobile started to become a thing and so there there are certain patterns and and Lessons Learned From that which is why we're really focused on trying to find the ones that um that Embrace Paradigm shifts front and center we've I think invested now about a billion across 70 companies and across sectors um on what we would consider AI first companies not just over the last year or two but really over the last 10 years but of course Very increased activity over the last two to three years I think generative AI has really pushed AI as a class forward it has its own limitations too especially on on the quality of reasoning like will we see new AI models uh uh pop pop out and pop off over the next year or two very likely right they already some early Innings on that and so it's as as we see to kind of get get the foundation models get the application layer right when so much is changing so fast it's very hard and

obviously it draws a lot of you know external criticism to see VC's Chase these opportunities which by the way typically involve like hundreds 200s hours of of of diligence at least speaking for us um but it's still incredibly hard to get them right but I think what's almost certain uh a certain strategy for Doom is to just IGN and I think the one thing that we can't afford to do is Miss a platform shift which also drives a lot of the current investment behavior in the space I I I didn't mean it in the sense that that um is AI going to have an impact or no it just felt weird since it's been so much talked about that that so few of the studios would be interested not interested uh willing to talk about it and I feel like there's there's an element in it that not all Studios feel comfortable talking about

the usage of AI and in those conversations I've understood that that there's um um sort of a worry of a backlash internally as well as from the players which was um interesting um perspective that uh that I wouldn't have uh assumed it ties in with General insecurity you know about the future of the industry about job security too right obviously from the from the developer perspective from an artist perspective there are um very valid concerns um about the importance of of one's existing skills that in in some cases might not just get augmented but but could indeed get replaced but I assume like for any new any any startup that is you know in investable by by The Prestige funds you have to be pretty um

pretty on board with the usage of AI at this point would would that be a I come back to my previous statement right like if the bar is to be a generational company that upends the incumbents I think your chances are already stacked against you from the onset so so you'll have to get creative in terms of technological levers and AI is just a very strong technological level that you can pull because um the incumbents are playing not to lose so we need to invest in startups who are playing to win and and that involves both choices and I think that involves embracing AI headon I do I do genuinely believe that and you know we we AI Finds Its way in almost every pitch we see today but then you can find out in one conversation or two or three or four or five like how how deep and how thoughtful that these actually looks like I want um I want unfair Secrets I

want like um I want like novel beliefs that if unique beliefs that that if true can be profound just just telling me that you're leveraging Ai and in your development process I think we're like we're like a year past that uh and himal from your perspective like everything we talked about in terms of AI for startups and for for Venture Capital how do you um see it coming in from you know these Monumental companies like what is their view on AI I mean we know what Microsoft and others are you know doing with the AI but but your perspective on on AI by the um yeah look I think with big companies um and midsize companies to be honest both public and private it's worth remembering that they they fundamentally at a different scale have different stakeholders or more of them right than um startups so I think

to assume that they are not doing things in AI um is is is a little bit dangerous right I think that it to it just because it's understated and of the lot of you know under promise overd deliver mentality that flows through that for good reason by the way because you know large and midsize companies can't afford to have uh a situation where they overdo it on that front um and people overestimate the timeline in which you know they could deliver something that that incorporates all that technology and changes the game for them but suddenly my personal observation has been that most players are doing a lot internally on this space they do have a lot of stakeholders events uh which Mar touched on but they're doing a lot on this space they just don't talk about it as much um

and they do that on purpose and so I think the and by the way you know if you were a big tech company and you had some you know very Innovative project going on you see it from those kind of companies too they don't talk about stuff until it's closer to becoming infruition um and so I think everyone in the industry from my perspective is trying to do something with this whether it's productivity related whether it's uh creation perspective some are more vocal than others and some are deeper in it than others that much is true there's players who are playing on the surface level there are players who are playing very deep and just not talking about it but I agree it's a platform shift um a lot of these players are very incentivized to explore this because it has application today and it could drive margin Improvement and returns today and it could drive growth tomorrow um and the fruits of some of this you know don't forget the

AI train if you will you know whilst it's been building up for a long time the true focus on it it's only been a year right games take a lot longer than that to develop typically and so we may see the fruits of some of these efforts come through over the next two three four years where you get your killer app if you will uh and some game that really showcases something completely different and that well be you know companies in M's cohort or it could be from large or midsize private and public players we don't really know right it then depends on the consumer uh after that but um I wouldn't underestimate it I I I I think that people are are are focused it whether it fits the narrative they want to put out there right now is a different question more anything to uh yeah I just think there's also again there's like lessons learned from previous you know you know not just platform shifts but I think let's let's call it like major

Innovations whether that's from a technological perspective or from a business model perspective in gaming right I feel like it kind of like usually takes two three years for folks to figure something out right like in-game monetization and start started as as pay to win and and then it ended up being all about Cosmetics which I don't think people were on that train in in GE zero or one and and so you experiment your way into those patterns that work and as I touched on earlier as as himal laid out as well like that that ability to experiment and that drive to experiment is always a Little Bit Stronger on the Challenger side on the startup side that it is for the incumbent um that's the classic innovators dilemma which creates a bit of a beauty of creative destruction if that weren't the case you know and if

all value would always uh drive to the incumbents in all scenarios then we wouldn't have to do our job right but that's that's kind of like the beauty of the the industry um that there different risk profiles and in some cases different rewards yeah and and in the end when we're talking about AI would it be po like can you describe as doing more with less like is that in the end what AI allows I think that' be said to reduce it to that I think that's that's that's almost a category that I don't want to see more of I think that's you know that's that's the reality I think for most Studios today as customers of AI but as as builders for um AI Solutions in interactive media I don't want to see the the developer tools that shave off 5% margin I want to see the things that help be people build stuff that would

simply be impossible and unimaginable without generative AI That's that's a good way to put it um so let's talk about something that um let's talk about web 3 actually so this is uh this has been sort of a confusing element in in the uh the games industry at least for me so uh in 2020 it kind of became the thing and suddenly web 3 gaming was was at the Forefront of everything and I remember in I think it was 2021 I was talking to investors about possible series a and you would get out like laughed out of the room if you were doing something else than web 3 uh it was it was like you were pitching them a board game uh if if if it didn't have a crypto to economics and then in 2022 and especially in 2023 we saw first the Slowdown of the whole market and then uh basically companies pivoting away from web 3 during 23 um yet again today I see

the uh the uh the Bitcoin prices pretty high I think my crypto wallet is for the first time on the uh on the plus which I did not uh expect actually somebody hinted me and I opened up like first time my crypto.com in like in a year I was like oh wow this is interesting so uh so like where are we with web 3 is it tied to the uh uh the the cryptocurrencies uh you know at least I see still companies pivoting away from web 3 so uh maybe Morris you want to with this um first of all I think even in 2020 or 21 I think 21 was kind of like really when it took off um I think even even then there was a bifurcation between kind of like Believers and Skeptics um and then also there has been a lot of I think tourist inflow into gaming purely based on on the web 3 strategy that has tapered off but all of that aside um I think it's a I think it's an

interesting premise to to ensure digital identity and and digital ownership right there's nothing wrong with that um I think the two major issues of web 3 gaming at least until now is is I think it's twofold one is we haven't seen the right Talent pursue those opportunities by and large um and I think you know a lot of teams building these are all web free gaming specific comments a lot of teams building were not trained game designers um producers and I think didn't fully appreciate the complexity of creating social interactive media which is still media and about engagement and retention first and foremost before it becomes a topic of how to distribute the value which I would kind of like put web 3 more in the value distribution and value

creation category it's not 100% correct but kind of like the the goal was lost a little bit which is building an amazing game first and foremost um before you before you before you strategize around all the gimmicks around it and so those those games had had just not been built there are a few web three projects um that look very exciting right now so I think this year we could see the first great web 3 game and there's no argument to be made why web 3 games can't be built well um but that that was one issue and then the other issue which brings me back to my you know example of of business model Innovation with uh freeo playay it's just really hard to get business model shifts right in the first instance and I think you know there were some obvious Rock PS and scams but a lot of these uh economies that ended up falling apart were really

built with the intention to get it right and there was a lot of time and energy spent into figuring it out and again that it just takes two three years to get these things right and so maybe we'll now see it in year two or in in year three we see these economies work where I still am a little bit skeptical is I'm not sure for gaming specifically how how valuable to the play the the digital Integrity or Identity or ownership beyond the custodial reach of like a company or Nation really matters like going back to my own gamer days from 20 years ago I was logging into my account and that felt like my stuff I was selling it you know back then on eBay in the form of untaxed child labor which you know can can that be improved was there was there more friction than necessary yes but that doesn't NE that doesn't necessitate web 3 to figure that part out

so do I really do I really think that my items were not um well kept and and well intended and guarded by blizzard no I think it's in their best interest too that that I have my stuff and I I have freedom in in using my my stuff so I think the jury is out on that there's a lot more exciting use cases for web 3 uh Financial rails you know and and I think that's also where for example Goldman focuses a lot versus interactive media applications so by the way I think blockchain transactions have been creeping up even even through the trop if you just look at usage of the blockchain it's been up and to the right W without much of a downturn you know so this is this mostly a price downturn it's not an activity downturn um I'm not an expert on web 3 but that's kind of like my high level high Lev take on on web 3 gaming and and a little bit

beyond H would you agree that this it's a time span question and not more like first and foremost I think it's a time span but also a time question you know I think um Mar's Point um the the the attributes of web 3 and what it can deliver in terms of customer or consumer value composition are going to be valuable some people right um who perhaps want that ability to have high priced item they want to trade them they want to buy they want to sell them um there's almost a bit of a real money aspect to that right um and there's others who don't care right uh like I I'll give you an analogy I listen to Spotify and I honestly don't care if the music is you know mine or not I can listen to it so um and I think you know that that jury is still out there on what the size of the time around the

first piece really is right um and so then the default has to be it's got to be a great game if you want to make it Mass Market which is Mor's earlier point and then I do think I agree with Mar there's an interesting layer of this which is once you have a digital economy and that's what a game ultimately is especially more life service oriented ones um and people spend all their time and they collect things there you know there there is an interesting concept well that could underpin a broader economic transactions right and um then you know your your coins start being valuable as currency in other areas but you know the dollar bill works too right so I think there's that I think we're we're yet to see where that really goes off and part of it is because there isn't really a massive um game today sustainable one at least that

is uh you know cor web 3 which has taken over the the imagination mind share of various people so until we get there I think we won't see it is there a lot of promising content that's being developed that could release this year next year Etc yes um but you know then it's got to go about the same mwood Z growing that normal games do use our acquisition Network effects that come with that these things take time um but certainly if there's going to be a a game that's underpinned by Ai and does something quite different I could see that being a game that's underpinned by web 3 and does something quite different um the time will talk and especially in the economic downturn if you are able to create a game that is good so it Garners a big user base and if users can actually earn by interacting with that game that would be a pretty powerful uh marketing proposition for a game during during the

time when it's very difficult to Market new games so so yes I think the uh the point that you made before the pendulum swinging always to the uh a little bit too far from from where it was could apply here as well um couple more questions yeah there's one second a point that I think is pretty interesting is because of what's going on in the crypto markets with respect to bitcoin prices Etc you have to remember that you know Bitcoin is searly the reserve currency of the crypto ecosystem so as that goes up everybody else is wellth here in normal dollar terms right um and most of these titles that are out there that are we pre-oriented have some sort of token under pinning man so their sheer ability to put more Capital to work to grow to develop to scale their teams to accelerate their progress has gone up because Bitcoin has gone up and I think as a result you know there will be people who reignite the bandwagon there um there's nothing wrong with that you know I think that uh but that's due

to sort of bigger factors right which is the crypto economy as a whole not just the gaming piece but the gaming piece will certainly benefit from it yeah yeah um so moving on to the uh the couple of last questions so kind of like the future of overall this integrated model like given a lot of things that we've discussed is there still a chance for individual content creators to make it on their own anymore or is the uh the game now fully rigged for publisher and a platform model so hamal maybe we start with you since you were discussing this quite quite deeply with the uh VC versus publisher approach yeah look I I think um I think the short answer is no right I think uh look at lethal company you look at Power War and that as a group but but um examples of companies that or people just

individuals right battle was another one um where things can come up um out of nowhere now in all of those cases or many of those cases the you know this wasn't the first project that those people tried right and may maybe they were in it for seven eight nine years before they really got something out of it but something eventually broke through um do I think that the barriers to doing so this exact moment in time are very high yes right where the the crowded seal of content plus the amount of dollars that have been in the ecosystem both from the big end and also the startup side of things it's not easy um will that get better in 25 26 when the calendar gets a little bit Slimmer yes um you know do I think it's easier than ever you know from just a pure remember there was a time when steam wouldn't you wouldn't self-publish on Steam right now you can but you need the supply to be you know normal right to to kind of push through that and for the the development expenses um to create something that's

good enough um you know to be reasonable um perhaps you manage to you know have Lighting in a bottle and do something on the cheap but but generally speak trickier uh and the go to market to acquire users and and players has to be efficient as well and that's go more expensive too so I think it's harder than it was there's more noise to break through than there was doesn't mean it's not doable no cuz all the tools are out there right anyone could get a get an engine license and start developing um but I do think that there's been there's more games now than they've ever been and so it's more competitive than it's ever been for what was the market that did grow and now is in a slight contraction phase and the consumer is more Vigilant with their Valor spend and more it's from your perspective like when you're funding these teams and and you know the funding that you get from light speed is is not a joke um how do you how do you evaluate

that this team can break through in the future environment uh to become you know 10 billion 20 billion company like what are those elements that that you're looking at I mean I I think I'm known for looking at teams that have previously demonstrated their success as really typically lead designers lead producers of franchise that franchises that grows like $250 $500 million a year um just having done that before guarantee they'll do it again typically no but again you know our our work factors in a certain Mis rate uh as well I also I think one important point is like when I when I think of funding these Studios um with the projects that we go after I I I actually think that on average or at least median of those Studios that I've funded since 2020 they probably raised or will raise $100 million or more they're not really out

there building games because I think that's not even good enough even with a success story that's not good enough to to build a multi-billion dollar company you really have to build a platform or like a social network of sort and so I think it's really hard to do when you don't work with at least 100 million and that's a lot of money right but these need to projects that are built um that are built with the audacity to do something novel and creatively beautiful but also from the get-go have to be set up for uh life Ops operation with a Content pipeline of typically you know a year plus at time of launch and so you look at these outliers you know and and we all we all know those surprise hits over the last 2 three years they're also really hard to sustain and really turn into something bigger when it wasn't part of a four

fiveyear mission that this particular one would be your one big bold shot and so if you then reduce it to what are really the project and incubation that are of that caliber with those teams with that funding the air gets actually pretty thin and like by funding them and by picking them you automatically lift them into a class of I don't know 10 10 20 projects or something like that that are out there right now that actually compete head-to-head with triaa um and and that that's kind of been my strategy for for Studio investing at least and so we we'll we'll see if it works right I want to be intellectually honest that the feedback loop is not closed on this strategy but if you look at the early ones and the ones that will come out 2024 25 I mean frankly I remain optimistic on this approach yeah you made an interesting

point about these small like surprise hits that that have come out seemingly out of nowhere and how they don't have the sustainability because it has been a somewhat surprise and because the team usually hasn't done live operations before and is not uh equipped to do that but I think another point that is that is uh like great and challenging at the same time is that they hit the jackpot and that is very um you know uh they they get a lot of money in a very short amount of time a small Indie Studio of like four people and so the incentive to uh to like hey let's now put everything back into this and grow into this massive operations and do this and that is kind of maybe not always there and you're like you know what we're we're fine it seems like we're doing just fine you know everybody got 5 million bucks and you know they're getting you know million a month and it's it's all fine and they're not looking to grow so I'm kind of I think the uh the success is a little bit of a bad thing as well it's

not a bad thing at all it's I think it's awesome and like ultimately the the player wins in in all of this right and like kudos to those who who create these outlier successes but it's a little bit it not not all of those let themel again coming back to the initial point it doesn't all lend themselves to the um to the Venture category right and they're they're different they're different um ideas of where the goal post is and what what constitutes success and I think those are great examples for Studios that either uh bootstrap or use traditional publisher funding to you know make a100 million which is a lot of money my point is actually that the player loses because if they would have or if they would sell that asset to another Studio that is able to invest more and to add more longevity to that game let's say Val time as an example I think the players would gain more and now the player actually loses because the team is not incentivized to to build

on that but I think that's a a little bit of a different conversation just something as of right now I'd say the players are fine lots of great games games are way to cheap if you believe stra selling it I agree with him by the way on that point he's not the only one yeah me too well he's not the only one who's saying that um all right so last question is uh thinking about 24 and 25 like what do you um I don't know if predict is the wrong word but what do you foresee is going to happen uh what do you feel is is going to happen in in the market is there going to be uh you know is the downturn going to continue and then it's going to be an upswing and um I would like to uh ask you like from a perspective of of Founders because most of our uh well the number one title of our of people in our audience is a founder or a co-founder and the third one is a chief executive officer so maybe putting yourself in in uh in in those shoes like what would um what

would you do so uh he if we start with you 24 25 yeah look this is there's no one size fits all but um I would say I would use the first half of 24 knowing that there's a relatively uh busy content slate to drive whatever productivity and efficiencies that I have left to do um I would probably assess really carefully where I'm going to strike the balance between focusing on existing franchises and not not giving up on the new things that I really do believe in and are going to uh have legs you know in 25 26 um because balance is important I would um then you know

consider what do I actually need to put out this year to maintain cacho's growth Etc what can wait um for a better consumer day there are some great games that have come out which just canly just couldn't break through the noise um if you can wait for the a better Market to to put them into then why not um but that's a debate to how management you know has to have to think about that with respect to investor expectations too um I would think carefully about if I've got plenty of you know I think about balance sheet management pretty carefully uh there's some companies that are very well capitalized and perhaps too well capitalized should they be thinking about Capital return uh there are other companies that are under capitalized and perhaps have to manage uh cash burn and those type of things uh through this year in which case it's of what do I really need to run the business and should I you know if if I'm

doing okay or I released a product that did okay um how do I set myself up so I can play for another day right uh Drive cash flow strike a publisher deal push forward and play for the next phase how you think about your cap structure management is pretty important in that context especially if you're on the smaller end um you know how you think about any financing that you do in this environment what valuation that you put on it you know are you being too aggressive today and you you you you you know price yourself out as a Founder out of a a liquidation because of a liquidation preference in the future um thinking really carefully about budget and business plan management there's type of things are being in focus for me where I'd be optimistic and very sort of looking more macro look as I mentioned this before in a bunch of these over time I continue to believe that the single biggest

opportunity outside of AI in our space uh from a pure Donis perspective is advertising um and I believe this since 2018 and it hasn't fully come to fruition yet uh and arguably there's hundreds of billions of dollars sitting on the sidelines waiting for a for factor to really nail how advertising gets into this space you see some of the majors starting to really do some Innovative stuff on that front uh including some of the ugc players and I think that that to me along with AI are probably the two biggest areas of just massive Tam expansion for the games industry which is needed um that and then also the lowering barriers to entry for HD gaming specifically you see a lot of very Innovative things going on look at what the TV oems are doing by providing controllers with their televisions and having their you know um

their OS tied up to uh you know loud streaming services it will take a while it's a slow ramp but it really does lower the barriers to entry for folks who want to get into HD gaming uh that's interesting and then where I'd be a bit more cautious is on the go forward on mobile with respect to how um some of those Dynamics in that space play out and the viability of that space is a stand loone monetization place or you know is it something that becomes a funnel right um for other platforms which certainly many mile companies will move in that direction so those will probably be the areas that be focus on in 2425 there'll be some of that you know out of that decision tree that leads companies to say I'm I'm doing great there's others who say I need some changes there's others say I do this myself I need to pair up with somebody which obviously drives my business um there's others who say you know I'm doing fantastic but I

want to do even more and I can't do that by myself it also drives my business when I'm I um and there's others who may say you know I really want to make sure I set this business up for the Long Haul and um you know perhaps 25 26 is a good time for listings uh to give employees liquidity or upside into story or you know the company Capital to go and do things uh in which case you'll see some of that too um I'll pause there but I think that's sort of what I would have in my mind yeah if I do my my full summary it's basically uh focus on austerity for 24 uh but don't forget to invest into your future uh for for 25 and and really wait for those moments and as you said there are games like Allan Wake that that you know came from remedy which is like two three kilometers away from where I live uh got like raving reviews and I don't think the sales were really on par with the reviews and the uh and

the rewards that the game got and if they would have launched perhaps in a different time I think they you know would have done significantly better at least for the uh for the launch weeks so uh definitely a very good advice uh if if you can you know if you can manage to launch later Mr morritz well you asked about what this should do um and I think by the way most of them have already you know cut down to the reality that is 23 or was 23 and this is 24 in terms of how they're managing um cash and how they're thinking about fundraising so maybe as it relates to um Founders that are coming to Market in in gaming and specifically in game studios um you know I I don't really care so much what template people use sometimes there's a little bit too much I think talk and philosophizing around like what

the best structure is and what all the topics you need to hit like I think as I've said now I think twice on this podcast we just need to remember where the bar is in VC and and consumer VC specifically um so my advice for a Founder would be explain to me very clearly how this is a company that will upend in come and has a path to become a multi-billion dollar generational company um that usually hinges on some kind of unfair secret or unique Insight that if if correct is profound um I want Clarity of thinking communication like strong mental maps of how things should be done um extreme sense of urgency and um Ray Dalo has this has this thing about Founders he says he wants to see diss satisfaction with the status quo nothing ever feels good enough and that Gap is both a tragedy and a constant source of motivation so I think that's the kind of founder that is working on the right

thing in the right way in 2024 that that has Merit to be Venture funded um and just to end on a positive note because I feel like this this podcast was pretty pretty gloomy by by and large um there's still very strong fundamentals and Tailwinds in gaming uh and and interactive social media experiences are not going anywhere yeah so just to be clear also consumer spending and gaming is actually slightly up in 2023 uh mobile gaming spend is kind of like recovering on on a path back to pre idfa level so I think just because suddenly gaming is let's call it flat everyone's freaking out right because we've been spoiled with continuous growth since 1997 I think it's okay to have like one flat year um but there's nothing wrong with uh the generational and technological Tailwinds that are still present in this IND

industry there's vertical applications that are finding their way out of gaming born in gaming into other sectors because it's just a domain that pushes the boundaries on on 3D technology and and really human experiences in in many ways and so I think just for all of us and you know as as Founders as Builders as Executives as Bankers as capital allocators as podcast hosts or or you know leaders in this industry in in some form or another I think it's also important as stewards of the industry to just remain optimistic um because I think if we're not excited about the future then what are we all building toward yeah I agree with that I think um yeah it's very easy to listen to this podcast and and just yeah speak of it that way I think it's worth remembering that the what we've been talking about is the here and now I

think um gaming is still fundamentally the best growing and the most profitable part of media entertainment which is a huge industry and and of itself it has a lot of second Tail wins it has a lot of dollars and engagement flowing into the ecosystem uh it's got the demographics it's got uh Geographic too um and I think it's got very very well functioning business models it maybe needs to you know get into shape but other than that um so do I I think but other than that um I think we'll be okay uh but we just going to write out a year or so yeah I think this was a very useful podcast because uh yes uh we we talked a lot about the realities but nevertheless even despite being so doom and glue Blom and Grim uh at the same time the uh the notion that the market is going to pick up in 25 and 26 and don't stop investing

on the next products in your pipeline like those constantly existed so I think there's valuable information for Founders for right now and even on web 3 we were positive so so um so you know the uh the overall census in the market right now is gloomy and I think that the founders uh should be aware of what is expected of them and what is a good business practice for them to survive through these couple of years so that they can be on the upswing when that eventually starts and and we've seen similar types of uh dips and and then uh following bull markets in in every single industry so I don't think this is any any different from that on so uh I think we can all agree that uh we're positive about the market but also realist in terms of what is expected right now and uh thank you for really talking talking from the point of investors and um you know um it's even hard to say what Goldman saacs is Goldman saacs is like everything it's

you know you touched upon on on all the points but from the from the point of of large companies like why certain things are happening not only from the industry perspective but also from the uh the market perspective and and investor perspective and why we're seeing layoffs etc etc so I think that's a important context for for people to hear so um so yeah just uh huge thanks for uh for educating me and uh few thousand other people who are listening to this so uh I think everybody can can get in knows how to get in touch with you through Linkedin and I will put your LinkedIn information in the description below and uh and once again thank you and himal hopefully I see you in in Istanbul and morit uh I'm not going to even ask anyways um I hope you have a great day and um thank you again for for coming on the podcast and Illuminating everybody in the uh in the industry so on that note thanks everybody for listening