Executive Headhunting in the Gaming Industry: Tips from Gerard Miles, co-CEO at Mission One

hey everybody and welcome to the deconstructor of fun podcast I'm your host Mishi katkov and today my guest is Gerard miles uh Head Hunter and a founder of mission one jard has 15 years of experience working in Recruitment and especially in executive head hunting uh and currently he works with the largest Publishers game Publishers in the ecosystem uh based out of us EU Middle East and Asia so anybody you can think of now this is a fascinating podcast because you'll get a really valuable insight into the complexities of hiring gaming Executives uh we'll talk about things like cultural integration the pros and cons of hiring execs outside the industry the importance of leadership communication and strategic understanding um I think the key takeaways for everybody here is that you'll have you'll understand the inner works of an executive head hunting now that is very valuable whether you end up employing Head Hunter at some point or

get contacted by one so overall a fascinating episode I really hope everybody enjoys this one I enjoy talking to Gerard he has such a wealth of knowledge and and experience and insight and I'm I'm hoping he'll come back on a podcast to address some of the uh some new topics and by the way in this episode uh there was a slack uh conversation on on deconstructor fun slack Channel and we integrated a lot of community Community questions though will those will be towards the end so if you enjoyed this podcast give it a thumbs up uh leave a comment we always enjoy those and um have a great day this podcast is brought to you by data AI now you're asking didn't they get acquired by sensor Tower they did and that's awesome here's why whether you loved using data. or sensor Tower the combined company will offer customers even stronger and more detailed insights on the full Digital

customer Journey exciting times lie ahead as sensor Tower and data Jo enforces go to data. or sensor tower.com and get on board with undeniably the best data partner in the business now back to the [Music] episode welcome to the podcast thank you Misha delighted to be here let's first tell the audience who are you and what do you do I know you've been as a Head Hunter and an executive Hunter for almost 15 years now uh focusing especially on the games industry for the last what a decade or so am I correct absolutely Mishka so uh I'm a I'm a head hunter uh that's involved in executive Search which is finding VP sea level uh Executives for companies um I've worked across many Industries actually I started off doing Industrials head hunting uh placing sort of people

to run factories out in Auto uh tier one Auto out in in Germany so I've come come away uh and about it's probably five 10 years ago discovered uh the world of games I always was a personal gamer uh and I never realized that you could actually be a gamer uh and a head hunter a head hunter in games uh until I picked up some searches in it and and the rest is history uh so yeah so and you work with a lot of like so you represent mission one which is your own company so work with other uh head hunting companies and recently you've set up your own called mission one um since we're talking about games what is your special skill as an executive Head Hunter like what is what is unique about mission one and yourself especially yeah and I think you know taking a step back to to of why why executive Search in games as well I think that that's relevant to your question is that you know games is been such a a close-knit industry for a long time right it was industry where everyone knew everyone for a long time

um particularly in in in regions right so people would know everyone in London or everyone in Helsinki knew everyone else Etc um what what you what we saw is that from 2010 onwards really with the rise of mobile the the games World suddenly got a lot larger uh and therefore just relying upon your your local network might mean that you missing out on people right so so executive Search wasn't really sort of needed as much in the games industry until until s about 2010 onwards when when the world start to expand and and we noticed that and we saw you know an opportunity there to say look if there's someone who's really deeply specialized in games uh but also is very International in terms of their Network then you have very clear value proposition to the market so that was always our sort of our unique sort of angle as it were was we know games very deeply but we also know the people say if you're in London we know the people in Montreal or San Francisco if you're in San Francisco we know the people in Istanbul right or or in Barcelona who might not be on your radar but are very

high quality very skilled and actually very relevant to your to your your network so you know that was part of the the thinking and then you we co-founded mission one about two years ago um and and that was just a you know ambition to really take that brand and idea further and just sort of say hey look the games industry is is growing how do we how do we really service that as it continues to grow and evolve um because games is actually um much more than games nowadays right games is is touching on all areas of consumer and and other sectors uh as well yeah gamification gamification exactly and you know again a lot of our clients actually don't look like games companies their education companies their Fitness companies their um you dating companies their fashion companies something like that but they they want to get that Knowledge from the games world that you know games are very good at retaining attention which is valuable to a lot of people and they're also very good at teaching a certain type of behavior or encouraging a certain Behavior such as you know through gamification so that's th th

those two things are very relevant to a lot of other sectors um which is why we've seen the sort of both an influx of talent from outside games into games but also an outflow of talent from games into other sectors yeah that's so so an executive head hunting is um I assume different than hiring um what do you would you call like staffers or experts or professionals so what is a how first of all what is an executive and what is the typical process for head hunting for an executive in gaming or in in apps yeah so so our ex so you can do it both on title and and on salary band so so the roles of the salary we we're working on tend to start at sort of $150 to $200,000 in terms of uh annual total compensation and that can go all the way up to the millions of of um uh in terms of annual compensation in dollars

um also in terms of title it tends to be from the sort of senior director level through to VP C Level and then board tends to be where you have the executive um executive Search pce and it's it's different because um you those tend to be um very specific searches they're they're really critical often to your organization it's often got eyes on from the very top so the board might be involved the you know the sea level is certainly going to be involved the CEO's time and energy often this can be a real priority uh for them to make this hiring and in some cases is sort of the most important hire or decision that they might make in a year right if you're getting a new Chief product officer right for your mobile games company it's pretty it's pretty important you're getting that right right or if you're you know you're going through a tech rep platforming and it's getting the right CTO or you know you're expanding into America right and and you've got to get the right cro Chief Revenue officer in that rate this is this is Mission critical staff and you know a lot of people talk about oh you

know people are your most important asset um I think you know we've all worked in organizations or seen organizations which have thrived when the sea level people we respect and seem to be you know very capable and steering the ship in the right direction and we we can probably all think of examples where you think okay well the the sea level Executives they weren't going the right direction and you can see two three five years down the line you know has a has a pretty major uh impact so it's it's a much sort of higher intensity process there's usually more rounds of process there's a lot more energy up front in scoping the role um there's a lot more energy in the negotiation and closing of a role that all these sort of these factors um you know push it into what we would describe as executive Search it's it's a very sort of time intensive uh process that's taking you know three to four months uh and a lot of energy from a lot of you know high-profile people uh to get ride this podcast is brought to you You by apps flyer in today's Digital World

understanding your apps Journey from Discovery to download is more than just insightful it's essential enter apps flyer the leader in Mobile attribution and marketing analytics that allows you to measure the full potential of your marketing efforts making every ad dollar work smarter with apps flyer that's your new reality dive deep into Data driven insights that reveal exactly where your users come from and how they interact with your app app sler where your apps potential meets performance and and what's the so so if I understand correctly when when doing an executive Search the involvement of stakeholders has to be very high exactly and and and that's right from the start right and I think you know we talk about process uh in terms of what exe what does executive Search look like for for your listeners um so it starts off with quite an intensive uh uh kickoff session we often talk talking to multiple stakeholders across the

organization getting their input cross referencing that because actually not always you know not everyone's aligned at the start as you can uh probably imagine that's you know a common theme um and that's okay right it's okay to get that but it's actually quite important to get that out ahead of a process rather than en counting that you two three months in when they're you know they're arguing about a candidate and they say well but we wanted this and somebody else said go no we don't we want this and you that you don't want to have that conversation late in the day um then you're into a process of quite intense um research and mapping as as we call it so identifying the right candidates and a question I always get asked as suppose socially is like how how do you find these people right like what's the yes exactly uh you know and and where are these people and and why can't I earn you know millions of dollars please can you have mil you know um so these These are the joyous questions you get ask head under um and I think you the answer lies it's probably in a number of different factors right and and it's like um imagining you're you're you've got

you're cutting a cake and you're slicing it in different directions to maximize the number of s of individual slices you're you're getting so you know one is the network right and that's that's the most important right we call people up we Source them you know let's say you know we work across um technology in games we're across mobile games PC consoles this gamification world so we know lots of people already in that world so if we get a mandate coming in we say okay right who do I know who who's going to know the best people for this role because each role is individual right like not you all all Chief product officer roles are different all Chief Revenue officer roles are slightly different and and you can go to those people and say okay well who you know which of the companies you really respect right who's doing really well in the last five years who's got that winning formula and that winning strategy who's been leading that effort right like um you know why did that work so you're Gathering all this Intel which is both relevant for the search but actually also is very relevant for your client as well to understand okay what's the layer of the landscape because the the the the the sort of the higher as it were the person you're hiring is

really at like the tip of an iceberg of of a broader challenge right you're trying to you know the hire is to solve something else right it's not the the goal in itself so this sort of Intel of like okay how these how did this company structure their marketing function I got that asked the other day like how do how does it work at these other companies I just want to know right like what should I should my user acquisition and my Performance Marketing how should they relate right together um uh so that's sort of the Intel piece and and the research and the sourcing and then you're layering that in with also more best based research of looking at the market saying okay who's grown whose share price is doing well who you know which games are top grossing in this market you know etc etc uh and then trying to identify people as well who might not cover from your your sourcing so you're going through multiple layers of trying to work out okay who who are the right people and then also actually even when you're interviewing people you're also still gaining information right people sort of mention okay we bench marked against this company or um you know like actually my old boss was great at this XYZ so you're you're sort of putting all the pieces together to

try and work out okay who's been solving relevant challenges who's been really sort of excellent in this market and then you know how do we get to those people and find them and then you the next part of that is um you once you're through the research is Outreach getting them on the phone assessing them understanding okay are they a good fit and then you're through to managing those people through through through a process there's quite a lot there I'll pause uh V is any click on no no it's it's super important so so first of all your network then the research that that comes through that and then the Outreach starts and I think the the first these three steps seems to be quite um I wouldn't say simple but clear so you just do your work I assume that the real challenges come at the Outreach step because if you've done when you've done your research correctly uh you're reaching out to the most valuable candidates who have grown their companies who are very precious uh resources in the companies that they

work with and you're coming in and saying hey why don't you leave the company where you've done all these great things and you have your team and you have your support system that you're most likely appreciated and go to another company where nobody knows you and you have to take on a leadership position that is not uh an easy proposition like people only think about the money but most likely your candidates are already well compensated and and doing good in the companies that they're working at so how do you kind of how do you handle Outreach how do you have how do you get these great candidates to switch uh positions yeah it's a great question M because you're right like we often say you know a lot of the best candidates not all but a lot of the best candidates are not looking for a new role right they are because they're the best people in their organization they're being well looked after they're given the best resources you know they're well compensated they've and they've built up as you note a lot of political capital in their organization they know how to get things done they've got friends Etc in that so you know that is that is clearly a value

proposition for the head hunters um the other side of that though and and people might be um surprised by this is that you know these people actually though are often some of the most career conscious of of the executive pool right because they've got to these levels um is not by accident right like people people often get to that C Level SVP level because they they have a certain ambition or drive that pushes them towards thinking holistically about their career um and and thinking about you know what's my purpose where do I want to go and usually you know the question that we often are delving into is okay what's what's super meaningful for you to achieve in the next five years of your career right what's going to get you really Juiced up and the other side of this mystery is often like you know people like change and they like challenge right and and the flip side of hey I'm super well settled my life is great is that some people that's that's not enough right they're like okay okay starting to get a bit turning

the wheel now right I've job job done mission complete I could stay here for 5 years and make a lot of money and be very comfortable but they they've sort of moved beyond that right that's not the primary goal of of why they're getting out of bed in the morning and you know it's you know michig when we talk about head hunting like in in general right the the reality is you've got you've just got individuals in front of you right like you've got that executive and I can think of someone I I I head hunted once from the US um and they were very well placed they're doing very well with a big you know mobile games publisher but I'd spoken to them before and I knew that the opportunity I had is for to to run a very tops of 30 grossing mobile game title um doing hundreds of millions a year in in Revenue but I knew this was what they wanted because I'd spoken to them before like a year ago I said like hey you got to look at this right you got to you've got to consider this because I know you're happy but this is ticking all your boxes of what you said would find uh you know exciting and in the end they relocated from San

Francisco um uh with their family and they they took the job on so you have those sort of moments and and and like a lot of jobs M right like it's perceived that that the moment of Triumph is in the call right like you've somehow got this magic sale call that you're going to like call up a super happy person convince them they're not happy right like you're like um know movies where they call people up and get them to buy shares or something like that it's um you're not you know I that's certainly not our approach right you're not this sort of salesman who's who's going to tip the balance in a phone call what you're doing is trying to build a long-term relationship and it really is a long-term game you're often talking to Executives over five six seven years before you might actually play someone I mean I I can't when we first spoke Michigan but I feel like it was a while ago and maybe we had like a little bit of relationship and then you know you pick up the phone and suddenly suddenly something interesting you're like oh wow this is this is kind of cool actually like this is this is turning you know turning turning the dials um and um you that's that's what it is and the sort of the success moment is is actually built

off years of of general relationship building right the sort of hey this is an interesting article or like oh do you want to get to know index or Andre horvit let's just like an outre school right like just go go meet them and and be a friend and then they're like oh well Geral knows so knows me a little bit and he's made some good intros and like when he he's saying you should look at this this is exciting that piques my interest um so there's a lot of that now to your question there still is the like the cell bit there's got to be a hook that you're creating that's that's interesting and you're also again working with your client to understand who is that relevant to right because you can't go call up you some candidates are not going to be interesting about some opportunities right so you've got to understand a little bit of okay where does my where's my story going to resonate right who's it going to be exciting to uh and why are they going to like why does it make sense for them to move and and I think you can also sort of integrate some of that thinking in your Outreach um you another bit of it and it's obvious but be super honest again I I think you know

like one of the things that's changed about head hunting we all get all this this spam right like this just hey like do you want to be I mean I get it like hey you'd be a perfect fit for an engineer at Netflix in San Francisco I get and it's like no like I'm not scared of the AI if this is what it's like trying to ping me right like um and and you get a lot of that right and sometimes people are just relieved to you say like hey like I know you're super settled I saw you've just been acquired so I think you've probably got an earnout for the next year but this is really interesting and it matches your experience like would you be interested in finding out more right and that level of like oh this person is like understood not just even my CV but has done a little bit of digging to understand like we got acquired or like oh you went into my profile to realize like I'm the the person who's been building our unreal games effort right out of a studio that mainly does unity like and and that's why you've picked me out does just Elevate you quite in quite subtle ways and you spend a lot of time reading the profile thinking about the

approach even if it's only condensed to two three lines of what you've actually written the thought can can shine through and really stand you out against um the noise of the market that is that is LinkedIn and the depression that sometimes can can be be from spending too much time on social media you've heard of heroic Labs by now and we keep talking about them because in today's mature Market you need every Edge to be successful rather than spending those precious company dollars on building game Tech focus on building your game and shipping it get into your players hands faster and grow your community heroic Labs is Battle tested partner and friend of the podcast their Tech enables you to be flexible creative and scale for Success heroic Labs has your Tech stack covered whether you're looking for a worldclass backend game server an amazing game development framework Fantastic live Ops toing or reliable Mass scalability heroic Labs has solutions for all of these challenges and it's not just us a deconstructor of fund praising heroic

Labs the company works with some of the world's biggest Publishers on many of the Beloved games focus on your game save a big chunk of cheese and avoid Tech risks with heroic Labs step into the future of game monetization with exola exola empowers developers and Publishers to market sell connect and optimize their games globally from payment solution to a full suit of tools designed to grow your games Revenue while fostering a lawyer player base exola is your game's gateway to worldwide success with exola the world is your playground visit exa.com today and find all the solutions that will help you to power your games into success everywhere that's a that's a really interesting point that you've made and and that is that the uh each of the H Hunter has their own network and that work is built throughout the years and

the more senior the position the more important is this personal aspect because the more senior you are the more of course outreaches you get from different recruiters and and at some point the volume just keeps on increasing and you're less interested but if it's Gerard who you know from the previous years you've had multiple different conversations about different companies even though it hasn't resulted into something tangible even you if you have you keep keep still in you know in contact with that person raise new things talk about other things talk about the industry kind of learn from that person about other uh potential companies or or um or people you should be looking at and so you develop this relationship over years and eventually so you know it it tends to lead to um to you know you're getting your idea across that the person would be at least interested in talking to the company that is looking to uh to hire for or an executive position am I correct that's

correct and mich I'd love to to flip the question to you I'm sure you get all sorts of outreaches about all sorts of wonderful and weird jobs uh the world what what what resonates with you what what makes you think like hey I'm going to pick up the phone or I'm going to reply to that message if it's if it's coming in I would say what you you what you described I actually noticed that now that you spoke about it I don't much reply to people who I don't know and so it just like automatically is not interesting um yeah I I I don't know why it just it's just like oh I don't know this and sounds weird and sometimes I click on the link but ah not not really no no not May no thank you thank you by no thanks and sometimes not even placing the the automatic reply but then when somebody who I know reaches out then at least I feel oblige to have a conversation at least a call like okay well let's chat about this because I know you and I can't just ghost you you but yes it is

very easy to ghost people especially on LinkedIn who you don't know who just throw in you know these long trades about a different company and a compensation packages and whatnot you're like okay all right like you don't know me this is not personalized and so forth so it feels spammy yeah I think that's and I see that a common common mistake is people just putting loads of information in right and it's like very obviously Auto sent out to like a thousand people and it's such a turnoff um and I think you degrades the brand I me also the other thing that we do a lot of is um getting getting live getting warm intros from people right it's like again if you if your friend who you trust it's all about trust right like so much a life is about trust right if if somebody you trust as hey you should talk to this person about this role you know you're going to do it for that friend right you're not it doesn't matter like it's not it's nothing about the role or even the the Head Hunter is involved it's sort of okay well I trust that person so if they've said it's it's good I feel good about investing my time right because time is time is precious

and you you've only got so much to invest so um you know there's a lot a lot of it around just longterm relationship and just I just think being authentic as well around why you're reaching out that that over the longer term um you know helps yeah it's it's a it's a very good point that you're raising with the uh with especially executive head hunting that this is less transactional and more of a networking type of a business where you are really talking to a lot of people and even these outreaches that don't lead to to an interview process still lead to that person becoming part of your network and then later down you know after several years like you've been doing this for 15 years and you probably still interact with the people uh from 10 12 13 years ago uh even though they're not actively looking but you might you know catch up with them once a while maybe once a year uh twice a year to um to see how things are doing and understanding them the market better and and through that maybe learning that they would be interested in something that you may or may not

have now or may have in few years yeah and um it's was a bit of a curve but one one business I think if I just take like a sideways step into another business I don't know if you know the bankers AR yeah and code you know those guys of course of course I think right like so so they you know I I look you know we look to them as a business we just like respect a lot so so re for your listeners are an investment bank and um whenever we've in interacted with them they just they just care about their client's needs right you can tell like they just want to solve a problem for their clients and they want to think really laterally and really broadly and they're just so well respect I don't think I've ever met someone who's not like oh AR great like you know who's heard of them they're like oh yeah they're great to interact them and I I just you know that's that's a model that mission one we sort of look up to and we sort of think wow like you know this these are like long-term Partners they really care about the industry and they're not just simply there like hey if you got a deal for me can I close it yes no goodbye they're thinking how all right I can't help you but actually I know someone who can let me make an

intro Let me you know put put you in contact with someone and you know that's that's sort of where you know the the mission of mission one is making connections that change lives um and that's sort of you know where where we stem from and I think you know over time it shows out right and it shows out regardless of head hunting it shows out I mean again for people who are doing their own hiring right don't think about okay just this higher right into this one data point of this interaction and like you know trying to spam through sell someone and get something quick think hey six months later they might be talking to someone who says to me hey I've got approached by this company what do you think about it right and that their interaction with you is is incredibly important right like so even if they weren't the right candidate or like you didn't close them and I i' you know I tell you a story I I had a had a someone I I worked with like six years ago and then two years like four so four years later so about two years later somebody called me up who I know really well they oh I'm I'm interviewing this company what do you think and I was like

oh it's interesting actually like you know like I you know like there's some there's some some some details there right which I can share with you that you know their behavior was a little bit Sharky like I just had a few question marks about this and that behavior and you know all the rest and you know that's four years on right like there somebody's that that that that experience is coming back right and they will never know that this information but it's going on all the time right I remember being sat uh I GDC or somewhere and I was turning to a CEO and somebody walked past and just said oh can I just catch you what do you think about these guys would you work them they're like yeah you know and that's it right like that's and again you have no idea what what the network is is saying out you there so so really as much as this could be advice to people about hiring who are looking at making his executive hes is is think deeply about every interaction because even quite small ones even if it's saying no to a candada right and we're going off top but even the rejection process of a Canda I see this going you know have we talk about what what people sometimes do poorly is like

they they handle candidates in rejection poorly right and it's like oh we didn't get any feedback or like the feedback didn't make sense or like if you have a really honest conversation with someone about saying like hey you didn't get the job and these were the reasons and it's honest it can be like hey we didn't think you were strong enough on these answers candidates will so much prefer that than the like the the the BS of the like oh we just had a great slate you know if it's not true again it could be true but if it's not it can be you can turn what is quote unquote sort of a negative uh result into a positive reaction and that that impacts your brand and that impacts your ability to go get great great quality people over the long run again in the short run you might not feel it but over the mid to long run it really impacts you yeah it's a long-term game uh let's let's get into more of a sort of a detailed questions so what do you think qualifies what do you think I mean you probably know but what what qualities really uh differentiate ex exceptional Executives from the rest like what really stands

out yeah it's a it's a great question and I think I think you know get so so to the highest level and the easy answer is I think the leadership quality right and and then the question is okay what does what does that mean right because as people get more senior in their organization they they tend to be taken away from the actual work right the functional work right so the the CTO is not coding the the CMO is not you know doing the data sheets on the on the Performance Marketing orator so so what made them good at the start is now less relevant uh they've got to know enough to be dangerous is is the sort of the phrase but really uh as you move up it's it's about leadership and that's the ability to influence the organization it's the ability I think it relies very heavily on communication so that's a really key skill and communication you know we could do a whole podcast on that right but it's about listening uh primarily I think there is is understanding what's going on you a lot of the you know a lot of the best exacts I talk

to is like you know what did you do well we came in and I just talked to these teams and then I found out why they were unhappy and then I did something about it and you're like oh that sounds super simple right what what have been happening before but the reality is like what had been happening before is like no you got to do this like like you know this team isn't on the same page as me like what's going on right like i' got to change the team got to you know and and it's it's sort of it's It's Nuance but it's not rocket science I think you know and I think this is something I'm really passionate about actually is that and you know perhaps if you're you know listening to this and you're thinking how do I we get to the sea level right like it's not some innate property that like certain people were just born with it and like it's it's magic and you just get it's skill sets Okay to get to a 10 out of 10 maybe you know that's that's not easy to do right but hey if you're like a three or four out of a skill set I'm pretty sure anyone with with enough application and and effort can get to seven seven out of 10 right which is

pretty good right and it's already you know ups and then there are other things they'll naturally Spike even even higher on so you know I think leadership is something you can get you can read books about um good to Great is is a really good one I'm sure you you've had that recommend maybe maybe again maybe people will have different views on what their you know top leaders radical cander is another one I think it's really interesting which is about how to communicate honestly and effectively um and uh you know through learning to communicate through learning to listen and then get your your message out right get real Clarity okay this is the direction we're all going in everyone's had a chance to understand it's not about doing what everyone says right it's not about listening to everyone and just doing what they say but giving them a framework where they can un send okay this is possible this is not possible uh and then also at that C Level you're working with other functions a lot more right that that that cross functional collaboration is really important right like the again that marketing and sales and Tech and product right that they're

all you know steaming together HR they're all sort of you steaming together towards a shared Vision um that becomes uh super critical uh as well and then I think the other thing that really stands out is strategic understanding right like the you know we were just talking about that the um you know the sort of the the short-termism you everyone's in a rush today right everyone's got a priority everyone if you're a listed company it's quarterly if you're in you know growth startup it's it's you know like just surviving the next 6 months I think when you're getting your your SE level Executives in or your VP you your executive levels there it's understanding okay well this is the Strategic outlay right this is where we're playing this is how we're doing today but this is how we're going to win in in two to three to five years and that's really difficult to assess and I think that's what it's defly difficult to find and and to focus on but that I think is also a really key understanding a well what's what's our reason to win

over the long term um because again there's a lot of noise in today's world of social media and X companies raised This and like oh why companies doing this with AI or like you know and and it's easy to get caught up in that hype cycle of like what's hot right now but you know I mean everyone's talking about Nvidia right like oh it's so great and like this is crazy but again it it all goes back to sometimes like quite I mean sometimes bit of luck but also quite boring you know fundamentals of like well this is the market we're going to play in and we're going to play it really well we're going to do it for a long time and then suddenly we're going to you know we're going to overtake IBM who weren't playing in this market or weren't it's strategic and it's long-term that that makes these these companies successful it's not some Eureka moment or some heroic effort that one person came up with one product it's it's often a you know it's it's it's a long journey going back got it okay so four things that I that I kind of listed here so number one being the like what makes an exceptional executive so one is being leadership and and often times when somebody says leadership they imagine somebody who's

like a a fantastic speaker and a super charismatic person but it's more about like ability to influence the organization and different people have different ways of influencing the organization some are great uh through communication others are great through data um and and so forth but but really understanding how to navigate an organization is is a proof that they are able to influence it uh rather than there are also situations I've been doing that maybe at some occasions where you just um bull rush at something and that's not the best that's the worst way to try to influence the organization because you're getting the counter reaction and not the uh not the the positive reaction so um yeah and just you your point there about charismatic leadership I think is a great one because I think we often it's it's like it's hardwired into us to respect charismatic leaders right and that that's the whole point of Charisma I think I think but there's both studies on this on leadership that been been done that actually a charismatic leader can be a double-edged

sword so again it's not to say don't hire charismatic people But the irony is they don't they don't have to fight as hard on data to win arguments they can get what they want because they're Charming because they understand XY Z right and that can be good but actually it can be you know if they've got blind spots if they're not listening to the other arguments if they're able to get a bad idea through a committee based on their their Charisma versus their you know their facts and their strategy that can be the most ding thing for your organization so yeah I think it's really you know like unlocking yourself a little bit again sometimes you want a little bit of being able to stand up in front of the team and Inspire but you know it's it's actually sometimes the the leaders who are are very low ego very thoughtful um know when to speak but also know when not to speak that's that's a real sort of X Factor um uh there different positions let's put it that way a charismatic CEO whose role is to raise capital is very powerful because the company can

pivot and do whatever but as long as they're able to raise capital is really important a charismatic CTO might be more challenging because they would make a tech decision that is not maybe the best or CMO or any other one yeah it's a really interesting it's a really Inc conversation because again like I mean michig I don't know if you've I've certain I've seen this so like we've seen a lot of charismatic CEOs raising Capital right like and they don't always have Happy Endings but you are right like the charismatic exact it has a place right and like everything is a tool and again I'm not against the charismatic exec a tool it's just a sort of like I think I think you know so much of you know any any attribute right that we're we're marking up or down right extrovert introvert whatever you want to say right it's it's okay it's just a sort of standard you know if you're if you're a board and you're thinking about your CEO or if you're a you CEO thinking about your exact team understand it and then think okay how does this play into the other parts of my team and how does this you know you're putting together a puzzle where everything can be can be

can be both a positive or A negative right like depending on how it's set up how it's controlled how it's influenced what kind of role or parameters you're being set and you know again it's sort of um you know it's again it's a slightly classic thing again we see with Executives which which might be surprising is that you know again doesn't always make people happier getting to the the highest level right like you know the classic you know like I'm I'm a bit sad cuz I love being in the code or again you know rather unfortunately some that people we're replacing have been sort of over promoted right and it's almost like and and I think it's sad as a a society we aren't a lot more just open about like you know there's different roles for different people right and it's not all about hierarchy and getting to the top or even the people at the top hierarchy aren't necessarily we somehow perceive them as better in some a magical like you know pedestal way and it's like no but um they just better at a different skill set and you know again it might be hey you know you're better as you're better as that Uber specialist running the the the the performance marketing

team or the Chief Architect right rather than Chief technology officer right so you're better at um you being super deep in the tech than you were at running a 100 person team because that's not something you like and and you and and you know there's a stigma now you feel like you failed and it's like no you didn't fail you just put into a role that wasn't set up to you know extend your best bids 100% that's that's ton of that is happening and and people who haven't been in executive roles always considered or uh or have a certain type of a negative view about what it is with all the all the good and bad like they don't have to do anything they just run through meetings and it's such a happy go-lucky position where you never get laid off and you just lay off everybody which is absolutely not true uh executive positions are often times in my opinion nothing to be um looked at With Envy I would put it that way even though the compensation might be higher uh but if you are a truly exceptional uh IND idual contributor I haven't seen that big of a Delta between the the

compensation of those like like if you if you go to any Tech organization if you on top of the food chain as an individual contributor uh whether in Tech or in marketing you're probably getting pretty much as as as well compensated as the uh the the people in the director positions and Leadership positions but without the all the heeg that goes with people management and being uh you know being in front of people and making these decisions Visions uh that can very well backfire and so forth so so I would say that way but kind of going back to the exceptional quality so leadership ability to influence organization communication skills of course super important listening understanding creating alignment through some kind of a framework that you're able to to uh to communicate uh collaboration skills because as an executive that means you're working in a larger organization so you have to be able to collaborate with other divisions and then finally strategic understanding so this might be related to the strategy of your craft or the or the strategy of the market

preferably the both uh where they go together and through that you're able to uh offer long-term thinking setting a direction that is a strategy it's not tactical thing that is going to be for the next road map for the next six months but you're building a strategy that is at least two years forward and and you are building against that type of a strategy if I understood correctly so those four things yeah yeah I think so and then again for for each organization as well you every search is different and again so if you're you know in a in a big listed company like an Activision Blizzard or right you know whatever it is right again the skill sets are going to be different for the type of leadership that you need from if you're a you just raised you know 50 million from Andre and then and you're Off to the Races right so so again I think it's it's always I again like we're big Believers and like you have these sort of you have these General pillars but then you're also understanding okay the Nuance of the pillar here and like you know what's what's what's going to be like what's actually going to turn the needle in this organization a might be dialed up on on one piece of that or or another

and then you know another one that's that's popular I think to also assess is that sort of growth growth mentality um and you know I think so something we're looking in and we're always assessing is like well how has this person grown over their career right like how how how have they taken steps to continue and improve them understand where their blind spots are get mentorship or guidance and and are able to reflect and improve on that and I think that's you know particularly when you're looking at someone changing role or size of company where there's a change in what they're doing from from now it's very rare it's exactly the same right you're moving from exactly same that can also just be an extra like lens to look at when you're making these assessment about leaders is like how much runway they got to keep growing and also how flexible and successful this person is going to be over the medium term because it's it's easy to make a short again it's easy to hire someone in and then after a year and a half it's like ah it didn't work out and that's that's really that's that's the most crushing thing right like you much want to much better not to make a higher tool than hire someone who's out after 12 to

18 months often um inity and and so regarding that like how do you assess the cultural fit I think it's it's quite straightforward to assess the uh the capabilities of that person because they are visible whether you're looking at the LinkedIn whether you're having conversation where you're going through references but but the cultur of fit is is really the probably the most challenging in this type of a position that is highly reliant on other people in inside that organization yeah it's a really great question and you know and again like what is what is culture these these are some big concept words right that that that cover many different things um so so one one is you can look at okay what cultures have they thrived in today right and and there's I'll give you two really clear examples of different cultures be Google and Amazon right so so Amazon has a very process driven culture right they love their their meetings and their their like you know the documents six-page documents everyone's read beforehand and it's very like it's not quite machine like but you

know it's very like nicely ordered and processed and um I had a client once he EX Amazon CEO and they're looking for product people and like they loved all the X Amazon people right because they're all like you know like they just align to the way they think and it's it's very Comm and it's it's very effective right it's clearly a hugely successful organization but it it really does like once you meet like 15 20 exacts from the same place you're like oh you all sort of think the same way like this is how you like to work and working backwards yeah working backwards I believe is the book for the for the Amazon Executives yeah exactly and they love it and that's that's great but you know compare and contrast that with Google right which is much more free flow like the EXA Google is often like oh yeah I was like a I was a wind Surfer Champion for like 10 years and then I decide to go to Yale and like you know studied arts and now I'm I'm doing sales for Google card you're like oh that's that's super different different and super cool and and there are often these these people who you it's much bigger

like they're very like big world thinkers like you know it's about Mission and life and everything else and that's why they're excited because they believe what they're doing is you know is a part of this bigger thing um but not very you know they're not I think I think they'd often find the process side a little bit again not say Google doesn't have process but just to try and like create a really clear line between two exacts we we always was funny as a like a you know as a like this this culture is a bit more like like these people like people from Google and hate people from Amazon or vice versa so you know knowing your client is one Element right you got to start up front with understanding what is the real culture here going on uh with your client and trying to put some parameters around that okay so are they very Mission driven like again it can some be factual things like do they really like remote working right like again like um you know how they set up on communication do they love slack or are they doing in-person offsites every quarter you know some of these things are like hard hard facts but they they influence culture and how you think about um you know a big clue is how you interact with

the execs themselves actually and again it's it's sort of a you know tip to so if you're using executive Head Hunter do remember as well that you're you're giving off signals to them right and you're giving off information in in every little thing that you're doing right like are you very responsible an email are you not and again it's not it's not negative or positive but it sort of gives off an impression of okay well what's what's going on here right like about how you communicate or do you really listen to us and want our opinion or you you just Hey where's my candidates let's go you know we're all about pace and transa you know so and again it there's no right or wrong way necessarily of of doing these things but it gives off these soft signals about what's your culture like and then when you're assessing candidates and again two are candidates of advising like there's there's a lot there's a lot of just soft soft signals that you're giving up right like how responsive are you to the emails right like are you um you know how how prepped do you seem for the meeting have you looked at the brief did you read did you read I didn't say you're like a four line email but did you read the fact

that this role is based in you know Helsinki right like did did you read that or you going to say like yeah I really want this job and I'm based in Montreal so that's cool right you're like no I I said that and you know you're like so it's little and again it's it's not nothing's fatal so don't worry if you if you haven't done something um but so that sort of giv you idea of how prepared this person is how they thinking how much chitchat do they make at the beginning of the call right like how how much do they remember about your previous conversation um uh you know like how clearly were they about answers or did you have to like dig a little bit to get to the real truth of what was going on there did you get the sense a little bit defensive um and then you know the other side is it's not rocket science ask them right say like who are the leaders you worked with like what were the environments you really thrived in and people tell you because they like talking about that right I love what was your favorite period of your career you're like I loved it the early days yeah there's a company I think called Symbian um which wasn't a successful company it used to make sort of handheld um they comp

competive Nokia they're making phone um headsets back in the 2000 yeah I think they made like uh the uh the operation system for Nokia I think that's that's ex exactly that's it I remember talking to a load of exacts from and it wasn't a successful company eventually it didn't it didn't go on I SP to loads of exacts though from when I was doing a search in that space um who said oh it's best years in my career they love they loved working there and there was this real team ethos they just had they all on the same page now again sadly the product strategy wasn't right whatever right like it didn't or whatever you know the market conditions didn't allow that but you could tell that actually a when you get that sort of that sort of um clustering of people talking about this this uh um this culture as being good right you're like okay that's interesting it goes back to that Intel bit okay well that's really cool like who created that culture why was it successful but but also you get you get sort of insights into okay what what was driving that was like everyone felt on the same page um everyone was working super hard but they they felt like a team like and that's often a common

common attribute of when people are happy it's not they're not working hard often they're working the hardest like you know often when they're like in a really happy setting because they they believe in what they're doing so you can you can sort of pick up these these little bits of um these little sort of soft indications okay what was what were the factors behind that that culture which you enjoyed which indicate okay what you're going to be successful in and is that very open communication is that very flat and you know and and also um you different nationalities there is there is a sort of a a reality of you know the Scandinavian countries tend to be more geared up around low hierarchy more democratic decision making Etc now interestingly some some people in this country hate that they're like I hate this I like I want to go work in I like working in American organizations where it's like we don't have to have a committee meeting for it some people don't right so it's not to sort of make a a sort of stereotype but it's just being aware of like how these organizations might work or or want to work and and and how those people fit in

really really good point yeah that's a that's an excellent question is like what type of environment you you uh you enjoyed in and and the other point is like a winning culture and a great culture are not synonymous uh sometimes they are but sometimes they aren't they are companies with absolutely fantastic cultures that fail and and uh as you said and there are companies even now with with really challenging culture that are absolutely crushed it which which I think goes back to that strategy piece right like it's really deeply understanding okay what are we what are we providing to the market and why it's better than and and I think those companies doing super well are are very good on their strategy and on their timing um if they had a great culture they'd be going even further I'd suggest but you're right I think I think people get hung up particularly early if you're in a startup like I'm sure you've seen that Michigan right like this is amazing culture it was amazing culture for two years and then we we ran out of money and we're all sad now you know it's like well we didn't we didn't build anything

it's like okay well you know like it it's got to be um it's got to be balanced with other the things absolutely yeah yeah culture is ways of working and ways of working has to be attuned to what you're working on and then and what is your goal so anyway so you mentioned uh interestingly you mentioned different nationalities and how well they work together so what what role does diversity and and I wouldn't like we can talk about diversity or diversity of Minds which is what I like to uh refer it to or we can take the the Dei angle if you want to take that uh but overall like when you're doing these executive hires how important is diversity cuz you mentioned that Amazon people like to work with Amazon people and they don't want anybody from Google or like I'm not saying anybody well they don't want that type of a thinking where somebody is like ex skating Champion turned director you know type of a person yeah it's it's a really good question and I I I think I think both both angles of worth looking at right and diversity is you I think getting real with you like diversity is um

because it's a hot it's a hot potato right in the market right it has it has it has triggers and incantations and and and um and all the rest and a lot of people are using the word um in different ways right so going back to that Clarity of communication you know I think what's really important is is getting a handle on what do you mean by it right you've identified yourself right what's diversity how does it play around well first of all you got to Define what you're talking about right and exactly you know the reality is I we're not making highes right like the client is always making their hire right like I'm not I'm I'm presenting candidates I'm I'm I'm handling candidates through a process Etc but but ultimately it's the client who's making the hire and is going to set the parameters around what they really want and what's going to fit with their organization so there's no one easy answer or there's no one casual answer s captures everyone so different organizations will will Define diversity in different ways we will guide them towards and we'll have a sort of innate look hey having a broader slate of options is always helpful for you right and I think you know there's the classic as well you want to avoid a sense it

does happen right a sense and people tell us about other head Huns they worked as well they'll say like oh we got to a solution but we sort of felt a little bit like this was the only person we could we could get to right like so we're happy with the higher but we didn't really feel like we got a sense of the market so I think I think there's you know there's a broader question of in in a search you should show someone what the market is right and even the candidat said no hey here's TW here's 10 good people who all said no to you and and like and here's the reasons why right because like you're not paying enough or like they don't think your company's competitive enough or whatever it is right like even again if even the the negative quote unquote feedback is is helpful to see because at least you know right than than like only just seeing the people who were interested and I think the same is true of diversity you want to keep you know what we aim for is a diverse slate of candidates and saying look here are some other people they don't fit your brief exactly but hey they've got other things they're bringing to the table we think you should at least look at them right

you should at least consider them and this is our you know our opinion we we can't you know we're not going to force you into interviews right like we can't and that wouldn't be right but you know at least make sure you've looked at different candidates and even if they've said no you can go away saying look okay we feel like we we did you know approach a load of candidates and and I you know one I can't say it is but you know I remember one working one one games company and they were really they had a bit of a bad reputation for for diversity um and they've desperately trying to hire in a a female leader right they were very keen to find a diverse leader because they're like this this would really help us in in in you know our um our uh our sort of our positioning as it were and but you know we're hon but we're say but the problem is but you know people are like hey I've already fought that battle right like I've already done that in my own company I'm not going to come here and fight this battle again right so they're getting a lot of lot of push back based around that and it's it's just you got to give people evidence and reasons and working with them and the other reality as well if if you say like hey if you're

committed to making a diverse hire and a lot of clients are saying look we're really committed to at least having a diverse late it's like well then you've also got to be the reality is you're you're often going after a very very specific profile right it's the five-legged unicorn that you're looking for right it's the classic one um you know we can't like create candidates so if you're going to also want to be diverse you've got to think more broadly about some of these parameters and whether you're going to take a cand who maybe hasn't had the same s leadership team uh size experience you want or maybe hasn't operated the scale of users that you want however they're super smart coming up the curve get good references you know they could do this job but they might take might be more work on you to make this higher right like it might take you six to 12 months of coaching this person into the role uh but then you're making a trade-off and and you're you're putting that you're giving that option to the client and explaining that option um about about that decision- making break that's that's really clear so basically uh when you are are adding any kind of other elements than what is needed to be uh to

complete this job like what is the perfect um candidate for this position based on the ways they like to work and the based of their previous experience and success but then if you add a third element then that further Narrows the uh the scope of your hire and of course if you are a powerful company like Google or Amazon or Netflix who don't have any kind of salary caps and have that amazing name they can do those they can add these additional par and you also have to be like a you know a top athlete from your previous or some kind of like extracurricular activity that you have shown and and they can keep adding these elements and find their unicorns because quite frankly they have the name and the and the money to pay for the unicorns but it becomes more challenging for other organization who don't have those resources and in those cases they have to concede uh other elements so they might need to invest more into perhaps growing the uh the the the type of a candidate if this uh certain type of a diversity element is so important for them then it's just a bigger investment

on their side if they can't do the money then they have to invest into training and um and and leveling up that person as they join in and time to hire as well that's that's a resource which people don't necessarily always think about right it's like look we you you can find this as you said like you know the big the big companies mentioned there they've also got time on their side right they can spend you know 12 months 18 months filling a role because you know like they they've got that resource if you need get somebody in in 3 six months and you're always thinking about okay which parameters do I have and either there is the perfect candidate fantastic and we will find you great candidates but you know like maybe that there's sometimes there's only five people have done what you need to do right and three of them said no and you said no to two of them right that's that's it right so we got to we got to think about we either wait six months and see if some those people change their mind or we go to another geography or you know you loosen up on XY Z right criteria that you just of loosen up or again you're just waiting spending longer um you looking for for for that that right candidate perfect um all right so that's

clear uh I got one more question before we jump in into the uh the community question so we got a few of those as well um B Bo boom let me choose one of the ones that I have written through um oh this one is uh easy what are the common mistakes Executives make during the hiring process so we've talked a lot about from the uh from the company side uh what elements they have been doing and and how they approach this hiring but if you an executive and you are interacting with mission one and you're going or somebody else some other hunting company like what are the mistakes that you see the uh the executives make when you put them in in in touch when they get from from your pipeline to the the pipeline of the or the processes of the uh of the hiring company yeah I think I think it's a great question I think some of it would be around I think you know how are they approaching the the the process as it were right like there's there's a there's a sort of an assumption that

like hey if I'm the right candidate right I'll get the job right and and actually that's not that's not necessarily true right I think there's a little bit more involvement around you know have have you already sort of you know been through the brief right like have you thought about it have you used you in terms of just our interaction have you um have you used the Head Hunter right to get more detail we talking you know all these question you're asking about right okay well what's their definition of leadership what's their real priorities in this search what's what is their culture like what's going to be a turnoff for them right like I think that that preparation and investment of time into searches if it's not there that can be hampering to a candidate right and then they go into an interview it's not the right fit and they're they're left feeling a little bit confused about that um also sort of responding to feedback I mean it sounds really obvious but sometimes again we we've had cand we said like look you know you're a bit bit laqua right say you're talking a polite way of saying you talk way too much and just need to

like tell and then you know and then the feedback from the client is they talk too much you're like okay well I did I did sort of say that to them ahead of you know ahead of time or whatever it was um you know there's there's a chance here to um you to just just just be responsive to that and as I said I think be a little less sort of perhaps it's not arrogant it's a little bit more asstive that the process will find the right theit um but more sort of treat it as something that you're put work into and energy into um and also I think you know something I I encourage candidates to is also just sort of you know think about like think about it from both sides you know like am I the Right fit right is this the right fit for me like let's test this out approach I say if you can approach it in that sort of spirit of like you know it's not it's not imperative that I get this job or or from their side that that I'm their higher right like we want to work this out together um because it might be you have a great interaction great relationship with and they go like this isn't the right role for you but hey there's actually something else right there's another role in our other office which you'd be perfect for that

that we've got or in six months time it's it's coming down the line so I think that can be also just a sort of you know it goes back to these themes of long-term relationship um thinking deeply preparing uh and then also just being really honest as well and I think again that authenticity piece comes comes through like well I I don't do these things is that a problem but I do have these strengths right there there a lot better sort of saying that and having a conversation with the client about that versus them sort of discovering it as it were or thinking about it later and and and that can actually go down really well or or come to a more interesting solution whereby you go you know what actually um you know we are going to talk to them about a different role and and that's that's been a great outcome um versus versus um you know just just a very binary yes no to this this role yeah 100% that's very typical i' I've seen that in my own recruitment process over over the uh over the years and uh funny enough like when I was for example interviewing Executives interviewing my own bosses like even the people who did not eventually get

selected we stayed in touch ever since so so uh it's uh it's it's it's pretty awesome um all right so I haven't not asked enough questions now on to the community questions so jard you ready I'm ready let's go uh I've noticed a few high level hires from outside the industry recently for example CEOs of Team 17 but they are quite rare are we likely to see more as the industry matures would the industry benefit more from hires outside the industry or are we so idiosyncratic that Outsiders struggle to lead game companies yeah it's a really really good question so thank you to have wrote that in um so so about I'd say about four years ago about that four or five years ago um I noticed something really interesting was that Executives from outside of games were suddenly interested in games companies it was this sort of zeitgeist chain from like I work for a games company I'd be a bit embarrassed you know if you're like

I know you work at a fintech or something like that and you're dinner the dinner party question right like that's kind of cool you're working at unicorn fintech whatever um uh I I work for computer games company right like again like historically has been a bit of stigma about that or it's a little bit like it's bit of a mystical world for a lot of people of of um you know something that's non-mainstream that has really changed so first of all the interest from non-exist non-gaming exec and coming into games has has gone really high up people have seen the successes coming through they've seen the money coming through you look at Candy Crush or whatever you want to pick right like you know these games the bull games you these games are getting cut through culturally at a much higher level um and you know again compared to like media was much more respectable now like games has got that sort of like oh you know much more hype about games than than a lot of media areas so um that's what that's one element I think that's good for games and I think that that brings in Talent from

outside um that can you because there's a broad set of experiences and talent right really from really mature industries that can be brought into games I think the the new answer to this question is I think it varies by function by function so CFOs fantastic right like you you can come from a different sector and come in with all this skill and learning and knowledge and come into games and that is enriching the game's experience I think there's going to be you lower risk in that function of of tissue rejection and it being you know there's nuances obviously you have to get your head around if you're on mobile or whatever but you know there there's an element of like commonality there that's that's really helpful product is harder right again like design it's harder because it is more specialized it is more particular to the games industry um at the ca level I'd say we're still we're still seeing um I think that's that's a test case right I think um it can be difficult because let's face it like people who games can be a difficult bunch in their inway right they have a they have like a you just want to make

money you know like not like make good games it's like well okay that's that's an interesting thing to be resistant to the idea we're a company that wants to make money um but you know you you can get his suit so I think we will see more of it I think we'll see more um crossovers um you know I think so Bernard Kim for example so he's the co match Group which is it's like A5 billion turnover something like that like it owns Tinder and all these other um dating app so it's a large listed American organization um BN Kim he came from Zinga for example right like and and that's a really interesting example of of going the other way right like so from from games to one of the top consumer CEO jobs right and that's a games executive and I think we we didn't see that probably 20 years ago in the same sort of level we wouldn't have seen those sorts of moves so we're seeing more cross flows and some of these companies are becoming more hybrid in themselves right like you know Jingo right is the class classic one that everyone about like it's a language learning app very heavily gameer five

right so so is that a g you know some some degrees is that a games company right so you know it's it's it's got elements of that though but so I think the the broad answer to your question is I think we will see more of it I think there is still a high degree of of tissue rejection um you know to wax a little bit lyrical is is also we're seeing more companies from outside move into games which is interesting so you've seen that in both a good and bad way you saw Google trying to move in with stadia you've seen Amazon move in um Amazon game studios you know and they found that difficult right they've taken sometimes execs from the non-games world and put them in charge of of of building a games company and it it's it's I think you know I think the person running game uh um Amazon for example they moved on after Peri right it was it was a difficult um you world to cross so um I think we will see it but it's still going to be uh you know it's going to be some success as some some some people will find it difficult to to integrate particularly at the CEO level so diversity higher essentially diversity of mind coming in from either or the other way so that question was by the way from Maria CEO of us to just

mentioning it was a great question yeah these questions are from theor of fun slack group um uh next one uh this is funny underneath my Norm core exterior I'm actually a bigwig in hiding but no one noticed yet how do I get to call how do I get you to call me yeah uh well this is a co-founder of a company I'm I'm going to I'm going to let up well in a good way in a good way if you don't want to be contacted you know that's okay too right if you don't want to make noise uh and you're very happy I I think we should all respect that right and some people put on their LinkedIn like please don't contact me and that's that's great right like okay I won't um so I think I think you know the sort of the one is letting your network know hey I'm looking um the other is honestly you can reach out to us again it's not you know it's not uh in today's world it's not to find people right if you're like hey I want to find some head hunters in games right it's a Google search or a

LinkedIn search way to find some people reach out build a relationship again but I say the best way is to find you know you you will have a network if you're a big wig go ask them go ask three four people who are your who are your recommendations and then get them to make the intro as well because again I I to my shame I get lots of intros I don't have time to get back to them all certainly in a timely manner um you know and and you know again but if michig if you send me someone say hey here's my friend like talk to them I'm gonna get back no you now you said it now like get example I just automatic you don't you don't reply to my messages exactly but um yeah exactly and that that's true as well so so um you know I'd go ask people again there's lots of slack groups out there nowadays as well there's lots of Industry you know events so just just ask people like hey I need I need to get hold of few and there's not too many of us in the world of games there probably like four or five people globally who very specialized so you know we're we're we're a small Bunch um to get to know so I look forward to your big wig friend Mr and and probably makes

Make some noise on on on Linkin like that's a good place because I assume a lot of Head Hunters spend a good amount of time on LinkedIn that's their number one platform and if you are visible there if people are liking what you're sharing and you already have that type of a position then most likely uh a head hunter would connect because they are very interested in the the movement of the industry and the trend so if you're sharing that good chance chances are you'll get connected yeah absolutely of your shop front is your LinkedIn profile as well so just highlighting what it is you do as well and it's it's a broader I think you know piece of information is like just have Clarity and we didn't talk about that too much about like you know um it goes back to a little question about like what Executives not do as well in interview but like really tailoring their experiences to to what this the hiring team is looking for is a big thing right like and and simly tailor your LinkedIn for the job you want to get right don't you know it's fine if you're open but like if you're really Keen to do a certain thing make it really obvious you've done that sort of thing before and that this is what you're passionate about and that that

helps everyone out versus you know cuts through the noise of what you're going to get preached about all right uh next one what are some clear red flags for exec hires short and in candidate Behavior we mean like what what do what do people do I don't know this is this is what was written there's not a lot of context what are the red flags when for exec hirees yeah I think we hav talked about it but but referencing is really important really really important when you get down to the nub and it it pains me that sometimes people seem to have hired when they haven't done the referencing right so so we do referencing we don't do it all up front we sort of do a little bit soft referencing at the start and then we as we get further down on the right we say like yeah let's do formal referencing and also maybe talk to some other people in the market so that's that's super important because you know the reality is you might not catch all the red flags right like again like some people can be excellent presenting themselves and what they've done and then you talk to their old boss and they're like you know like oh yeah like I wouldn't trust them to like look after my dog type thing you know it's it's so referencing is really important and it

demystifies like a magic skill you've got a spot for I think you know the other thing is again how do they treat you as a head hunter is really interesting and again like I think you know this this element of um are they are they taking you seriously are they are they turning up because again like you've the very best like the the best top seers I've talked to they're lovely they make you feel special They you know like and this is the irony of like the the more senior people are actually the more you feel like they're giving their time the more they feel like they want to have a long-term relationship it's it's a real like irony people think they're the most distant people because they're like you know Stratosphere but it's often not the case right it's it's it's the opposite and again you sort of get a sense sometimes of a little bit of like arrogance or like again sometimes a little bit of cons like if they're concealing what's been done and again you know again some we're Savvy people so sometimes we know like that's not a great story that company didn't do too well it might have raised a billion dollars or it might have but I know like

behind the scenes like that that wasn't a magic place so if you're just talking about all the great stuff you did there and sounds Rosy that's a flag for me that's a like I I'm okay with like I went there and it was it was not good right like this is what we're trying to do and it was a bit of a challenge and this is really what happened that can be a great answer you know when it's like oh yeah we did all this stuff it's great like and then I moved off two years and and it's like it can be just ringing a little bell in the back of my mind so I very rarely see very poor Behavior or anything like very very rarely but I think a little bit of just if you get the sense some he's not being honest with you or that they're like they feel like they're a bit too big for the role and that like the arrogance is coming across a little bit that those can be some real turnoff again it goes back to the culture point a little bit of like this person might not be right yeah so be just honest about everything if you've made mistakes talk about openly about the the mistakes you've made and that at least shows that you've probably learned from the mistakes you've made and I think that's that I would assume that that is a positive uh communication

rather than than just sugar coating everything it can be again if it's all mistakes and you got to watch out for that again so don't don't go overboard on the like mayor culer of my my career has been a Ser of failures um you know like like be be honest about like you know I just think being real with someone can can be a good yeah positive you again turning that negative into a positive perfect last one my my perception is that big companies prefer established Executives from other big companies over experienced Executives from smaller companies like when Unity brought rotello after he left EA what makes a big company to search for a small company's Executives from time to time what kind of attributes and Feats they look for yeah another another really really good question and well nuanced uh it's a good good perception because you know some some of the reasons why they're doing this is because very large corporations it's it's a different game they're playing right like when you are if you're in an EA or Unity right like

the sky and the scale of the organization is tremendous and there's also pressure from the markets right like you know from from that sort of um that that a quarterly pressure to to Cadence you could to fit into and therefore a like for like executive is really helpful um because actually the job is often less about like making these games it's more I call it small P political but you got to be canny of what's going on in that room how these you know who's building an empire over there like how this all fits together how can I be effective in a in an EA or an AB or whatever it is is very different from how I can be effective in a smaller organization which is perhaps perhap more interesting just like making the game right or or whatever it is right there's there's different parts of play um you know I think how can you make yourself more attractive if you're in a in a smaller company um I think it's being aware of that right being aware and again it's a true of any any if you're trying to make any any sort of switch show show you're not naive about

the difference right whatever it is being like you know show like hey this is different like again don't overemphasize it don't don't over labor it but like be aware of saying obviously you guys work differently on this and and then having a good example or a good reason why actually you do fit into that right and and and be aware of that Nuance so if it is a very large publisher or something like that and you're thinking okay like you've done your research you've understood okay this is the type of EX they like and this is why they like that and that's why that's important to them be able to tailor your experiences more to to to drisking that to make it sound more like this is actually quite akin to how you've been you've been been working and that you're running towards that um I think can be you is is is is a smart is a smart but also be you know be really again really honest with yourself like do you want to go do that because it is a different experience so so this is the the interesting part about this question because it creates the sort of a perception that a big company is always better than a small to when in fact I wouldn't say in fact there are different people that like working at big company

but the same thing you would say if if a big company executive would come in to work at a smaller company like they are not used to the uh the limited resources that they would have they are not used to the fact that they would actually have to be a more of a t-shaped professional where they have to have get their hands dirty they don't have 30 people they can command uh to do different type of things or hundreds of people in in some cases so uh so I I feel like uh this this question is positioned a little bit in a way that that bigger is always better but bigger is just different and and yeah absolutely and again we're not so defining what we by small I was think of sort of mid midsize companies we going to ex it could be from a startup to you know so it's yeah and I think that's you know again like you know larger companies like you might have to lay off you know like your job might be like you're running a thousand people and your job is to lay off 150 people or 20000 people this year or something like that and again it's a different different types of people are okay with that right and and people have experience or or structure that differently so so again I think it's just having a real sort of deep think about why do you want to make that move

and then if you've got a load of good reasons why you want to make that move and and think that's right then you probably constructing that argument to to make to the company to the hiring team to say look this is this is actually a really natural step for me um to to to go make and I think this is this is right exactly horses for courses as as people say so uh uh on that note thank you so much for for coming on this podcast I think we'll do a few more this is interesting we'll probably get more tangible but really uh Curious to hear people's feedback on this uh so please either on deconstructor fund slack Channel or on LinkedIn reach out to jard um put a comment on this podcast section whether on YouTube or Spotify or wherever and um we'll we use that information to craft more episodes uh about this topic because hiring is very important especially in today's market so jard thank you so much for all the candid information and um looking

forward to the uh next session it's been a great pleasure thank you so much Michigan all right thank you everybody for listening