Are We at Peak Gaming? Seven Questions Shaping the Future of Games

It it feels like mobile is is slowing down. According to your estimates, it hit 103 billion in 2025. That shows a little bit less than 3% growth. Who are the actual winners here? Is it the developers? Is it the platforms? Is it the payment intermediaries? Is it the uh the tech tool financeier companies? What's what's your take on mobile? Manu Rosier, director of market intelligence from New Zoo. Welcome to the podcast. Let's start with uh easy first question. So, you released a massive 200page New Zeal market report. I don't know if the u the free version was versus 200. The one that I got felt like it was a little bit longer than a Bible. So, can you just summarize what is going on in gaming in 2025?
And that's a that's a challenging question when you have to summarize. Let's put it. Yes, there is 200 pages but I think this year we try to focus on on some specific uh spe special topics,

special trends but I would say in general if you you look at the market that I would say continuity is probably what what's happening right now uh most of the metrics we see kind of the end of the COVID hangover that we fell from 22 to 24. We are now in 25 where we expect the market to actually beat the peak of the covid time which is a good news for the industry. I think uh there is more uh positive in the in the future year than than maybe what we saw last year or the year before. So it's kind of a cautious optimism at this point. Um things are still growing. Not everybody's winning obviously. It's more about who's going to get the the lottery ticket. also in a world where trend and hype can switch so quickly. So there's kind of a steady grow but within this steady grow there is a lot of uncertainty about who is going to be the who are going to be the winners of of tomorrow.
Well let's let's dive a little bit

deeper. So I have about 10 different slides that I think are really interesting
and I that that demand your commentary. So
the first one that I have here is
is something that you had in the report and you say that 61.5% of the world's online population plays games in 2025. That's basically everyone with an internet access at this point. And so my question is if gaming has already eaten culture, what's there left to conquer? Well, that's why we forecasting kind of a steady grow in terms of the total gamer population. I think we have coined to a point I I like to do the analogy with the um package versus digital. So there were mass there were years of massive growth of the digital share of video games that just that they they replaced. But then at some point we came to a to a moment where the package share is going to be there. It's going to be 5

10% depending on the game. But there's not uh increase anymore because we've we've filled kind of the tank of of the digital share. And I think for the population is a bit the same. I I'm kind of a older gamer. When I was young, I was the only generation playing video games, but now every generation is playing video games. So we've kind of kept filling the age band with players through the last 20 or 30 years. But we've come to a point with every age band is kind of playing video games already. So we don't have this organic growth as much as as as we had before. So that that's why we we see the market. It's not plateauing yet, but it's kind of reducing the the growth rate at at this point. Um is it peak? I think there are still opportunities. One of the trend I I like to highlight is that it's it's not only about the number of people actually playing playing video game, but it's about the the engagement of each individual and each player. And what

what we see is that the play time keeps growing. So even if the the number of player don't grow that much, at least they play the players are playing more and there are a few enablers for that. Um the gen alpha I I have two kids so I I see them. They are multis-creen entertain multiple entertainment stream users you know they watch a podcast or they listen to a podcast they watch a video YouTube video and they play at the same time so that's kind of instead of having 24 hours of screen time per day you almost can double or triple that because because they are able to do things in parallel which means naturally you don't you don't reduce your play time because you're watching more videos but you just combine the two. So, so that's that's one of one of the thing that we see. Uh, the some of the the device also allow you to play to expand your extend your play time. So, the Steam Decks and all other portable device, I think it's really allowing people to play even more on the go and

not being limited to the experience of gaming on mobile. So, I think that's also also a positive. There are still some region and some demographics that are not fully into gaming. whether it's because they don't have the means to have access to gaming or they don't have the technology or the network to be able to be online. So there are still pockets of uh of grow over there and um but yeah that's steady grow but still a grow and we will probably come at some point where um we have a the the population of players will be directly linked to the grow or the the the not grow of the global population basically. M all right so let's skip first the uh the aspect of multiscreen playing which definitely causes
ADHD let's not talk about that doing three things at the same time and then wondering why kids can't concentrate uh let's talk more about the the global player forecast so there you know if you're looking this on YouTube or or

Spotify we can see the graphs and it is showing a steady growth of player base which is of course a secular tailwind for the whole gaming industry more players means more everything good. Um, and then you point here that 83% of players are playing on mobile, which makes all the sense.
18% of the players are playing on console and 26% of all players are playing on console. Looking at PC and console, are these like what's the trend line? Are smaller percentage playing console or larger? And what's happening with the PC as well in terms of the trends? I think for console console as as a as a market is very dependent on the uh release slate of both hardware and software. So gamech changing even like the switch to release can temporarily bump the engagement and the number of people playing on on console. Similarly, we know GTA 6 is going to also push up the market in uh early next year. So

there is a grow on console but it's probably not where the grow is going to come except for these kind of discrete events that are like one-time events events happening um on PC. I would say PC has become probably a bit more trendy in recent year since since the the COVID. I think when the COVID happened, you had a limited stock and limited supply of console because of the supply chain issues. Was super difficult to get the PlayStation 5 or to get an Xbox series. While it was a bit more accessible to get access to to PC and to PC gaming, it also feels like PC is a bit more trendy towards the younger generation. feels cool to play on PC while before it was more seen as as like a nerdy nerdy uh platform. I think now it's really it's really cool to build your own computer, you know. It's become a
It was cool when I was a kid.
I I know but only for a few people. No, now it's kind of becoming more of a a way the computer you build and or you

you you I said you decorate it with RGB and stuff like that. It's also an expression of of yourself. So I I think there is there is something there with the the alpha. Um uh yeah. So both are are going to keep to keep increasing but but right now I would say without catalyst the console um market is going to be more stable I would say and and growing less probably and then then yeah
grows together with the growth of player population.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Abs. Absolutely. And for PC, I think um um the the the emerging market, the markets that that are still not really fully into video games, they will have easier access to video games through mobile and through PC rather than console. Like if you look at China for example, console is not really a big thing yet over there. I'm not sure it's going is ever going to be. uh South

America is also for for the yeah the emerging population of gamers that don't have the the same means maybe as as the more mature market it's easier to go through PC because you already have a PC at home most of the time
and and also the other thing that that that I I think it's important to notice that the younger generation they don't care about playing a crisis game a game like Crisis they play Roblox and Roblox doesn't matter where you play Roblox you can play Roblox on a potato computer and it's still fine, still the same game. So I think also in terms of accessibility, a cheap computer become becomes the easiest way to play some games compared to a console where you already have the threshold of the $500 or $600.
Jumping.
I love the term potato computer.
Yes, I know.
That sounds like the most French insult I've ever heard.
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Um, okay. So, so that that makes all the sense. And also, it's just why would emerging markets even get a console?

Like, why would they need a console generation? It's so much smarter to use PC. Why would you have a separate device that needs to be hooked to your TV so other people can't watch TV so that you can play exactly the same games as you would play them on PC, but probably it's even weaker than PC and equally as expensive.
It makes no sense to have consoles.
And you get the exclusive now on PC. I mean, that's that's
there's no reason to have consoles. Absolutely no reason. I I wrote a piece yesterday. I call it one rig to rule them all, you know.
I I love it.
Yeah. I'd rather take a potato computer than a console.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Um and then yes, I have the graph here that shows basically the the player base per region as well as the growth. And you can see that pretty much equal growth everywhere. Um in terms of the the player base,
not big changes. I mean Mina is is clearly leading the growth in terms of

the growth of players.
Any reasons behind that or anything you should act on based on based on this information?
I think just let's look at North America and Europe very similar steady growth. So these are the mature markets the mature region in the in in the industry. But despite that, this is still where the most valuable players are probably. And that's also I I still feel like the the video game industry is always very much focused on North America and and and on Europe. North America is 7% of the total players in the world.
Yeah, it's seven. It's not like 50 or 30. It's 7%.
Um,
Middle East and Africa, yeah, it's growing. I think it's a combination. you see some of the the the the investment that that Middle East countries are doing mostly on the esport scene, but that that can probably have an organic effect locally, but also at the same time there is the technologic development, the connectivity that are improving in these in the in these areas that's also helping for the for the player growth. And then yeah, Latin

America and Asia Pacific growing by four 4.5%. So I think you really see to the world like divided in two when when you look at the the expectation in terms of player growth in the in the coming years. Also, Asia Pacific is more of a mobile mobile and and console uh sorry, mobile and PC region while uh US is still very very console uh Europe also. Um yeah
yeah legacy in a way but also we have to take into account like middle east and Africa you're combining pretty big you know
a continent and a big sector and through that it it looks much bigger but when we consider even middle east like
the countries are not as populous as as some would think like Saudi Arabia is what 35 million people and that's like one of the biggest Egypt I think is the biggest one but everything else like UAE and others are are quite small in terms of population smaller than big European countries Yeah, I totally agree. I think you have to when we talk about Middle East and

Africa, we have to look at everything around that. And there are like massive countries with a lot of population. They just
waiting to be unlocked somehow. But there are so many um uh like checklists to happen before we can unlock these markets because because yeah, the the GDP of these these countries are is relatively low. So that doesn't help for players to get access to to video games.
Yeah. And even though the language is technically the same, it's not practically the same. Like everybody speaks Arabic, but
Yeah.
Yeah.
Arabic in Morocco is different than Arabic in Saudi Arabia. Let's be honest.
Yeah. Absolutely. I I think you you see in terms of localization, it's always interesting to see the trend. And I think some some games are now translated in Arabic, but it's not by default, you know. It's not like French French or German that are like by default for every game. and once it's outside of just English. Um, yeah, that's and also the the cultural relevance, the cultural herit, you know, legacy in these

countries also doesn't allow you to have maybe the same freedom as you have in some some other territories when it comes to creativity.
Yeah. Yeah. And of course important part when we're looking at the growth of different regions, you could look at the the percentages that North America or Europe have and and kind of see that they're pretty small. But I think it's really important to look at the revenue power of each of the region and you actually have a graph of this one
and the development of of the revenue. So
in terms of um
and this is KGAR so cumulative annual growth rates of APAC, Middle East, EU, Latin and so forth. And and here where you can see even though Middle East is this booming sector when we're looking at population growth, we're still only talking about 4% of overall revenue and based on this massive growth that they're seeing, it could go up to 5% of all revenue. So before companies jump in on this new rising wave of players,
this like you're optimizing against 5%

of the market. And you mentioned, you know, you mentioned um North America and EU. Uh these two make like about 30% of the all the revenue and over half of the revenue is coming from APAC.
Absolutely. And while it feels like still the the the gravity is towards the decision making is towards the US and Europe mostly, you know. So, so there there's there's a a danger that to try to to think that what fits your local audience also fits the rest of the world while actually the rest of the world audience is bigger than than your local market. So I I think that's uh it's very um very even even more when now you can see clearly that the Asia territories mostly China and and and uh and Korea they are able to produce very compelling content that also resonate to the western audience which is kind of kind of new before it was small they were good in their local markets but now like a game like Marvel Rivals it's it's

published by it's published from Asia right and it comes and it breaks everything in in western world. Uh some other games are are also doing that. So I
yes I think it's more of a warning for the the western publishers that the eastern publisher also coming to the for the western audience.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I I was I was showing the the mobile revenues here. Sorry it was it was a different graph but it pretty much tells the same thing.
Uh but but yeah um and this is the the console revenue. So sorry for if if you were looking at it, but it doesn't
change as much except that that EU and and North America are actually commanding as you said both of the like most of the console revenues just because there's not much console going on. And then when it comes to uh yeah the these are PCs and others but yeah uh
I wanted to ask about mobile because of course like most of these listeners that we have uh are
are from the mobile side. So

it it feels like mobile is is slowing down. I know with with many people who are in the industry. Um according to your estimates, it hit 103 billion in 2025. That shows a little bit less than 3% growth.
And the story that that we're hearing seems to be around direct to consumer monetization about UA financing. So my question is like who are the actual winners here? Is it the developers? Is it the platforms? Is it the payment intermediaries? Is it the uh the tech tool finance year companies? Uh what's what's your take on mobile
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the end user. So I think it's a mix of uh of uh like winners. Hopefully the cons consumer will be will be a winner also at some point. Um, but one thing that we also need to consider is that it's bringing more friction to the user to the player because for each game you have to go to the own dedicated platform outside of the app store and to to purchase your things. So it requires more effort to the end consumer. So the end consumer is also expecting to get back some of that uh that that money that's being saved by not being officially on the on the app store. Um I don't see a world where the where Apple would benefit from that just to be clear because it's just it kind of all the transaction they kind of disappear from their they their channel of of distribution which also mean that they might add even more friction for the developers and for the the people so that they still get some kind of share of revenue and that's that's that's usually when these big

companies they see their margin drop they usually take decision that might not be always customer friendly. So we will we will see what happen there. I'm not I don't think it's over. I don't think that the the battle is over. Epic W Epic won uh for now. But what what about the the next one? The next big one. What what will they do? Um yeah. And and winners. Yes. Method payment method. I I don't really see how it makes a big difference for them between between one of the other because it's just like x% of the the the what is paid by by the end user as far as I know. Um I would say the way I compare that is that it reminds me of the early days of uh every publisher wanting to have their own PC app. you know, the EA the EA the origin, the Ubisoft thing and the the Battleet uh thing and and it just made it very complicated for the

user. Um I think also the moment you can only buy your V-Bucks on the dedicated Epic app, they fully control the price. You are just absolutely captive on every single level of of of their ecosystem. So yeah, I would say short term it feels like a good news for the for the players because they will benefit from that. But I don't know at what point at what point it will become with so much friction for the players that that it's really it's it's really it's really it's not great and uh and we see what's happening on PC. Everybody's going back to steam because that's the most user friendly solution. You know that's that's just uh and and and also how will a publisher get the players and get the awareness if if their game is not present in the app store which is still the entry point for for players to discover games. So a lot of questions we are monitoring that closely. I would say as as a as a data company, it makes it more challenging for us because now we

have to find to collect the data for every publisher that's not outside of the app store or outside of of of Google Play. So, it's a bit more challenging and I don't think anybody is really able to to capture that at at this point. Uh but yeah, it's very interesting to see to see what what will happen. But again, it's a story the same story as PC somehow.
Yeah. What's your prediction on that? Because if we look at the uh the Epic app, they've spent an arm and a leg to promote it.
The installation, I just remember the installation process. Did it have 14 steps before you can get it? I think I bailed on it like three, four times.
Yeah.
And when I finally installed it and I was like, I don't even want to play Fortnite. There's three games here. And like I can't I can't imagine that being anyway profitable to do this nonsense. It's feels performative. Uh, do you think that there's a future for this? Like if Microsoft launches their own app, like do you think they will take COD and Candy Crush, remove it

from the app store and put it in their own hole store that is impossible to find?
It's possible. I think there will be a lot of testing and tweaking. There probably be like three step up front and two step back in in in many areas. I think we we don't know yet. The only the the other thing I would like to talk about is the portable devices. is a portable PC devices that can become substitute to mobile gaming.
You're like, it's it's much better to play on a Steam Deck than to play on a mobile mobile.
No, it's not. It's just a totally different experience. It's just a totally different audience. I don't think it's going to be a substitute.
I don't know because when it comes to being to traveling to being uh not at home, if you have the I also think right now they are too big. Okay, I totally agree. they are these device are too big but I don't know how far they can go
but games are not even designed for them and we've had portable consoles forever

since Nintendo Game Boy
we've had consoles like you remember the uh was it PSP
yeah yeah absolutely
yeah it's like we've had them and they've never succeeded uh ROG and so forth like they succeed of course in finding their niche market but how many players are like I need this because I'm commuting every day. I'm sure there are these type of people,
but how small of a percentage that is compared to the people who just,
you know, go off like in the airplane mode and play
blog blast blast or whatever I'm playing right now in an airplane.
Yeah, I I get that. But you cannot also ignore the success of the Switch, which is also successful partially because it's a portable device, you know. So, uh, I mean, we we heard the rumors about the next PlayStation having also a portable version.
Yeah. But here's the difference between Switch and everything else. Switch, just like Game Boy has games made for Switch. Steam Deck doesn't have games made for

Steam Deck. Whatever PlayStation portable thing,
doesn't have games made for that. And so, I think content is the most important part. And
if there's no specific content, if it's like you can play the same game that you would play on your potato PC
and now you have your your potato portable PC
that is not optimized to play the game that you wanted to play
and you can play now worse version of it.
Yeah,
I get it. There are people. But I just don't see that to be substitute to the magnificent $2,000 device that is your phone that can show you movies and podcast and and all the games that you want to play.
Yeah. Yeah. I again that's just I think there are different uh angles to that. There is not like one one true prediction. I I don't play games on my phone because I think the experience is terrible. The the the interface is terrible. you know, I'd rather not play than play games on on on on my phone.

I'm not saying that I take my I play that much with the Steam Deck neither. Um, but yeah, there's I I also feel like with the rise of games as a platform like Roblox or even like Fortnite of Minecraft that your hardware doesn't matter anymore that much because the game is the same whatever the hardware is. So, so in in that case, you're also I want to play Roblox. I don't really care about the device and I will I I will I will spend I will buy V-Bucks on the platform where is the cheapest
I will not not be locked into the the app store for example.
So yeah
again all of that just scream more friction for the players which is never good you know
that's just the thing. Yes. Um, I want to talk a little bit about the uh the genre evolution. And here I have a a graph of of
PC revenues per genre.
And out of like identifiable genre. So of course the biggest genre is the

other. So it's all the rest that doesn't fit the narrative.
Yeah.
But the biggest one is shooters that have declined by 5% year-over-year. You got role playing, second biggest one, declined by 8% year-over-year.
Uh, and then out of, you know, the smaller ones, the battle royale is up, which is kind of like shooter. We're not combining shooters with battle royale. I get it, but not all battle royale games are shooters, but kind of feels like most of them are.
Yeah. And then the the biggest growth is in adventure and simulation. But but basically can you talk a little bit about the evolution of genres and how come the biggest ones are declining?
Yeah, I I I think even if on PC what you see in general like there is a like a a thick layer of all the same games year after year the counter strike the the the PUBG the League of Legend and I mean this game the valor on this game are always there. Sometimes they have a good year, sometimes they have a bad year. It

really fluctuates and and then what what you're left after that it's more of about the the slate the slate of games and what what games were maybe massive what shooter was massive last year game like like El Divers 2 for example and and this year is not is not is not so big. I think game like yeah it's more in the battle wire space. I think the the growing battle wire is mostly uh uh PUBG at this point because I think that Fortnite and and Apex are not doing that well. Um
yeah,
terms of in terms of shooter, it's a lot driven still by even on PC by the health of of Call of Duty, right? It's still there. We saw uh Marvel rivals doing quite good. So it it's more like sled dependent. Does it mean that there is a real change in the market in terms of player expectation and player genre they really like? I think when you look at a generational level, you can probably um it feels like the

younger generation are less into pure PvP, but they are more into like shared experience, maybe more co-op, more social experience that just really pure like western style dual that that you had more for the the gen the gen X or or the millennial. So, I think there there is there is potentially a trend over there. There's also more about um creativity probably. So the simulation and then even the adventure. The challenge with this kind of graph is also what is really technically adventure game compared to a to a role playinging. I think sometime the line is is seen role playing maybe it's suffering from Balders's Gate incredible numbers the year before and you you don't have such a defining moment this year. So does it mean that people they that the role playing game is a dying genre? Maybe not. It's just that there's not been this like 10 pole games that have been that they've been uh that they've been launched this year. So, I think a lot of is dependent. Um there

are differences between between PC and uh and console for sure and also mobile obviously. Um at the same time, yeah, Fortnite is considered as a battle royale, but it's mostly a shooter experience, but Roblox, I think Roblox is more more more within, I would say, simulation. I I I would have to check but Roblox is just it's not a game as such you know you can play a survival game within Roblox you can play a shooter game you can you can play a role playing game within Roblox
so so for us it's also a challenge in the future because with this this platform gathering such big audience we also need to find a way to kind of split these players within the genre actually so yeah it's a bit of a
a mixed one but let's not let's not underestimate Um um the slate. Yes, the the slate is still still quite quite
Got it. So it's very yearly dependent. Whatever is a hit uh raises the numbers and and when there's no followup the

next year, it looks like it's a down year even though it is a hangover from the year before.
I I I would say also for um so um there is another thing in terms of adventure. We we've seen that that people are kind of excited to to to kind of pause their life service game and just try an experience, a fit experience, single player experience of 10 10 20 hours. They just play it. It's usually adventure games, can be a Ghost of Tsushima. It can be some other games like that and then they go back to their multiplayer shooter or to their their their other lifestyle game. Um and in terms of shooter, I I would say the big question mark for us is the performance of Battlefield 6. I think uh we are very interested to see what what the game will do and maybe particularly on PC. I think we've been rather cautious with our assumptions in this uh in this forecast, but I think there is potential for Battlefield to uh to break through this year. So that's for for us it's kind of an important event this year

because it will have a lot of implication for the for the market.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's it looks to be trending in an interesting direction. Mhm.
Um even though the uh I saw the news that most of the people are playing not with uh playing with potato PCs,
not that that that was essentially the news, not not according to the requirements that EA put on the game. So,
but they've make a they've made a lot of effort. They've dropped the the the rate dressing to re to to lower the entry barrier. So, it means you can play with an older older graphic card. So I think they made some design decisions to making sure that they most of the audience is actually able to run the game which is a completely change of mindset when you look at the previous Battlefield where they were their part of their brand was to be the the high end of the of the scope when it comes from the technology and the the game engine and now they've kind of gone in another direction. So that's also something that will be interesting to to monitor
different different economic situation.

Uh back then they would say, "Hey, time to update your rig."
Yeah.
Uh now people are like, "No, time for you to downgrade your game because I'm I don't have money to upgrade my rig."
Absolutely. And then you have a game like Delta Force, which is a direct competitor to to to Battlefield, which can run on on low spec, which is a game almost designed for mobile. So do you compete with that if you come with with the the highest possible spec for your player to even start the game? And and I think that's that's a challenge. I think it will Borderlands 4 has been released. There's a lot of discussion about also the the meanspec about the the technical issue they have on PC and I just wonder to if it will have an impact on the lifetime sales also. H that's that's actually an interesting trend to to dive
to not not even dive into but kind of see the effect because we were so used to this
continuous economic growth
that allowed you know basically it was it was totally normal to release a new

slate of games
and assume that people will be updating their consoles their PCs and and it's just you know if you don't have a good enough PC to run it then upgrade it whether you upgrade graphical cards or just go ahead and buy a new And now that seems to be thing of the past.
Yeah, abs. Absolutely. I I think I I wrote something about like the end of the pixel war in the sense that we kind of kept at 4K right now. It we don't it doesn't feel like we're going to go 8K. It doesn't feel like it's picking up as much as we went from 1080p to to 4K.
Um there is a limit into the the the visual the the realism the visual realism. feels like a game like Battlefront 2, which was launched seven or eight years ago, looks as crisp as a new game right now. It it there's not been that, you know, there's not been any breakthrough in in anything that would be visually most more impressive now than before. So, so the hardware

maker, they don't have that that argument anymore. Like PlayStation 5 is like a smooth transition from PlayStation 4. The biggest in um quality of life improvement of PlayStation 5 is the SSD drive. It's the speed at which you load the game. It's not the fact that it's so much more realistic or so much more beautiful visually. So there's less need to improve your hardware. So it feels a bit counterintuitive or like it goes against the trend that you would come with a game that would require very high PC specs because that's not in the mind mindset of people anymore. the young people, let's not forget the young people, they play Roblox, they don't care, you know, that's the benchmark problems, you know.
But but you you mentioned correctly that of course you mentioned it correctly, but but just the uh the updates of of the hardware are so minimal nowadays like was it PlayStation Pro where essentially people were just trying to understand like how is this better than my PlayStation 5? It's like now you can see inside of a window of a of a car

that is out there and you can see like the seat. It doesn't affect your gameplay. I just remember reading these reviews like it's like you wouldn't see it as a normal player, but nevertheless, it will cost significant amount of money to get this pro.
It's a big challenge for the marketing teams of of these hardware hardware companies because how can I just say it's a step up, you know, what what do I bring? And even the the loading speed and the SSD, that's not very sexy. You know, you can't really showcase that. you just show a clock and it it takes less time to to to to load. But but it's it's a bit challenging and also it just comes down to the fact that the PlayStation and the Xbox from a hardware standpoint, they they've become branded PC box. It's just This podcast is brought to you by Apps Flyier. In today's digital world, understanding your app's journey from discovery to download is more than just insightful. It's essential. Enter Appslier, the leader in mobile attribution and marketing analytics that

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that's there's no not this kind of console war because it's just it's about the portfolio of IPS more than than really the the technical part part of that. There's not a race uh towards towards better technical. So yeah,
uh, one one thing that that since we're talking about, you know, the quality of games, the Pixel Wars, the the the the upgrades of of hardware, another thing that you have in the report is

nostalgia and the remakes, and it seems like remakes and remasters are a proven growth strategy. Do you think that that publishers are leaning now too heavily on nostalgia? And is this a is this the safest hedge against the ballooning dev costs?
Yes. Uh who would make a bet of $100 million of on a new IP right now, you know, given how quickly the trends are changing? It's like Tik Tok generation of of video gaming. You know, you have grow a garden one day, you have a you have a steal steal your brain rod the next day. Like 20 million people shifting from one game to the other in no time. Like who would take the risk of of building a blockbuster without the insurance that you are already in known territory with your IP. So I I think that that's that's the biggest the biggest challenge right now. The risk is what you you see with the movie industry. I always like to look at the

movie industry because that's basically what's going to happen in the video game industry a few years.
You think so?
Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
You don't take the like YouTube is is is mobile the YouTube of of movie industry or the Netflix and the Roblox is the is the YouTube? No, Roblox is the Tik Tok of the of the of the
Yeah. Yeah. It it's it's more like that. I I think um which which new IP has been successful at the box office in the last few years? I think the last one was Sinners, the the movie about the vampire. Uh which was the
I've never heard now.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it it made like more than 300 million in the US. So it was kind of a big but it's been the first new IP that basically broke some record for so long such a long time because it has all been about Marvel about uh Mission Impossible about Star Wars and what you can see also at the cinema is that they are making followup of movies that were popular 20 years ago you know

freaky Friday or all all this this I I I don't know it it feels like this is what video game are also doing you know they they just they are going deeper and deeper in the catalog of IPs. You you've seen the the Atari partnering with Ubisoft to bring back like some dead IPs to bring them back. Uh you you have remaster of games like Legacy of Kane which which which might have some cult following, but it's it basically sold three million units 20 years ago. You know, you're not going to sell 5 million units. No.
Sounds like I've heard Legacy of K. I couldn't describe the game at all. Soul River is also a vampire game. But
yeah,
I I think there have been a lot a few success stories. Resident Evil amazing success story because they combined remakes that are better than the original games and also like brand new games in the in the series, you know, Resident Evil 7, Resident Evil 8, node F9 coming. So I think that's the best combination, the

best balance within within an IP. I think Final Fantasy is also doing that that quite well. Um, but yeah, it I'm it limits creativity. You know, when the only games that are being financed are the ones that going to be with an existing IP, then it's kind it's it's kind of difficult to really come with something new and and there is the risk that the there will be fatigue of all these existing IP for for the players.
Is there what's the difference between a remake and remaster? I would say a remaster is usually mostly visual. So it's going from 1K to 4K. That's that that that I will call I would call a remaster. A remake. You can also change a game play. You can go
like isometric view to third person.
That's like what res Resident Evil did that with two and three remake. They went from a view, you know, where it's a fixed screen where you move your character inside of a fixed scene. Why

not? It's third person or even first person. I think
makes sense. I hated that part because it was hard to to control with the new camera angle coming in in different places.
That that that's a remake. Remaster can also be from PlayStation 4 to PlayStation 5. Just the the upgrade like they did with The Last of Us and then some some games like that. Just pure purely purely visual. One game that's very interesting in in that space is Dead Space because Dead Space is considered as a remake, but it's exactly the same story, exactly the same the same environment, the same mechanics. There are barely any improvement in in quality of life improvement, but it's a new engine. So, they they've remade the game in a new engine so that it's visually better. So, it's it's at the frontier between remake and and remaster actually. But I would say
I I don't I don't get remasters to be honest. Like I remember one of the first remasters that I feel that came through were was I think it was Starcraft 1 and I remember how

everybody in our studio downloaded it. We're like we are going to play Starcraft as it drops today. Like let's go guys. And then we downloaded it and was like this kind of sucks. Like it was just it it was just not what it used to be. It's like watching a movie that is 20 years old. It's just too slow.
Yeah, it I I I I think the remasters still need to be fresh. You cannot do a remaster of a 20-year-old game because the game play has evolved much with the exception of maybe some genre that are um that have not changed in terms of gameplay mechanics. Obl O oblivion remaster. It's Oblivion Remaster. It's not Oblivion remake, you know. Mhm.
It's it's just a visually visually of of the original game, but the mechanics have not changed. Why? Because the RPG mechanics have not changed in in in the 20 last 20 years. Open world games are still the same as what how they look 20 years ago. I I I think tomorrow if there is a new if there is a

remake of an assass if there is a new Assassin's Creed, it can be a remaster rather than a remake because they don't need to change the formula. The formula is still relevant for today. So, um, a remake, I think, needs to happen if your game play is aged because the game play doesn't fit the market anymore. And, and I think sometimes they've been cheap remasters of very old gameplay and yeah, that doesn't work. You know, you have the nostalgia, you launch it and you play, you actually it's it's terrible to compared to today's standards.
Yeah,
I'd like to see I'm I'm thinking like that's actually interesting thing just thinking of my own perspective. One of my favorite games would be Dungeon Keeper. And I'd be like, I would like a remake of Dungeon Keeper. I don't know what it is.
Yeah.
I can't describe it to you, but I would like that feeling again that I got. And then whatever they would deliver would probably be underwhelming.
Yeah. I
So I think you can't win.
High expectation or high disappointment.

It's always it's it's always the same. I thinking the same like Wing Commander, you know, I love Wing Commander, but would it work today? Uh how would it work? Um yeah, there there are games like that you you wish you wish they would be they would be remade. Um there are still pocket of of opportunities there. Let's be honest. Uh it's it's a it's money making machines. It's just
you're you're banking on nostalgia.
Yeah. I I think sometime it's interesting for some IP to do like little remaster because it's a limited investment low risk and it gives you an understanding of the popular popularity of your IP like is it worth not to make a new game or to to invest more in that IP. I I think it's also a way to test the waters and make some money at the at the same time.
Interesting. I get it. I get the business case. I just feel like they're often like given to some third party studio to do a new version under a tight budget because

it's a need to play and it's like a boardroom decision. It's not somebody who's who's you know um remaking their childhood fantasy. It's uh it might be in the beginning but then the reality sinks in that you have about nine months to ship this piece of So, time to update the graphics and just release.
Absolutely. I mean, a game like Dead Space, I'm coming back to that. The Dead Space remake was a fantastic game. I think 1992 Metacritic because the the initial game was really good. Also, at the same time, also never forget, you better have a good good first game. The original game better be good because don't make a remaster of a terrible game. Still going to be going to be terrible.
It wasn't bad. It wasn't bad actually.
It wasn't bad. is not like it was generational or like the best game of that year.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Um and but but the Dead Space even if the the numbers were not good enough to to kind of launch the remake of Dead Space 2 for

example while while the game was was already good. So yeah, it's it's a
it's case by case basically. Yeah. Mhm.
And then then sorry I didn't mention anything on the graph that we have here. It's basically console players are the most interested in
Yeah.
remakes and remasters, but it's like
five out of seven,
which is like
it's it's like are you hungry? You' be like I could eat.
Yeah. Exactly.
Which is not really, but if you have something that I don't know that I want could I could have it and PC player the same. And interestingly enough, mobile players have the same amount of almost like 4.8 eight out of seven towards remakes and remasters. Like what are we even talking about? Because mobile like you can still play Candy Crush and that game is older than mobile.
Absolutely. Yes. Because most of the mobile games are live service game. They they they're never ending, you know. So um yeah, I I I think this this doesn't

tell much as such and I don't think you can really call a lot of a lot of conclusion based based based on the graph. Um and I think control point
no offense to the graph that this graph is
no no no no exactly and I mean we don't always show data that that is like a direct conclusion sometime just show that we cannot tell if there is really a bigger appeal or not I I think also it sometimes depends how the question is being asked did we ask precisely to mobile players are you interested in mobile remasters of remaster of mobile game or just interested in remasters in general I think that's also the way the way you ask the question you will get the different outcome. But I would say the console player probably they are most likely to to think about remake and remaster because they remember
you've heard of heroic labs by now and we keep talking about them because you need every edge to be successful in today's market. Heroic Labs gamestack is built like a brick house. You got the Nakama, their back-end game server,

Hero, their game development framework, Sattorii, their WBOP service, and last but not least, Heroic Cloud to provide massive scalability. Heroic Labs is a battle tested partner, and their tech enables you to be flexible, creative, and scale for success. Focus on your game. Avoid tech risks. Grow your product with scalable live ops and save a big chunk of cheese. All with heroic labs [Music] playing games on the previous generation of their hardware and they want to reexperience that with the comfort of the of the new generation. I think that's probably where
and I'm I'm interested especially on mobile number being so high because I would put mobile number well yes maybe if this is interest but I would put execution at 1.1
uh because like you remember um let's say well Simpsons Tapped Out was like one of the first mobile games but that actually that's not a remake that's an IP game uh but let's say

uh Command and Conquer Rivals an absolute disaster
uh Dungeon Keeper actually came up on mobile disaster. Uh we could go down the list. Uh Titanfall, like all these games have been absolute disasters on mobile. So it feels like mobile has been the place for new IPs. But when you bring something nostalgic, it's like 40,000 people downloaded and like this is nothing like the game that I played on my potato PC 15 years ago.
Yeah, absolutely. I I think one thing that will be interesting is not directly related. It's just the Itman is going to release on mobile on mobile phone.
Can't wait. Is it paid?
Curious.
Is it? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm I'm really I don't know the detail. I'm very interested in that.
But it's not the first Hitman. There has been a Hitman before. They was developed out of Montreal
Nobody cared.
Yeah, there was Hitman Go also at some point which
Hitman Go as well. There's Tomb Rider go like like nobody cares because they imagine in their head hitman

u and then they will download it this one and I don't know I think I think that will be actually paid game if I'm correct like 50 bucks or 60 bucks
it could be
disaster.
Mhm. Yeah.
Okay. So enough about mobile disaster. Sorry I get like this is this is too much. Um couple of more things. So, we talked a lot about Roblox and here we can see Roblox uh graph
and we can see daily active users per platform. And again, nobody seems to be playing Roblox on consoles, which makes sense.
Uh it's probably the ugliest game you can play on your console. Uh it's an offensive action against your flat screen TV. Uh if I I would break if I
but but there is a but um Roblox was launched on PlayStation at the end of 2023
and it instantly captured 3% of all the play time on PlayStation. 3% for one game. Okay. Um it's now at 4% while

we've seen that play time in in the recent quarter has been down in total. Um I think that what we will see is that the 3% of console will probably increase and get some eat some of the 80% of the of the mobile because I what I see around me. I have two teenagers. I I see how people the kids behave. the time they don't spend on the mobile phone playing Roblox, they spend it on the PlayStation because yes, it's a terrible game for the PlayStation, but it's a much better experience to play Roblox on the PlayStation compared to the mobile because you have the controller
and things like that. So, it's it's just it's it's play Roblox, you better play it on on a console, but if you have a console, maybe it's not Roblox you want to play on the console.
That's that's the thing. So,
I think it will it will it will evolve. You you've seen Roblox keep breaking numbers. They they keep breaking all all the DAU numbers. 40 million. I I I've heard that heard that uh steal your

brain wrote they made like 20 million concurrent player yesterday or two days ago.
And you've played the game, right?
No, I No, that one I play Grow a Garden, but I've not played Steal Your Brain.
Don't Don't play it.
Don't play the funny part.
You'll be saddened. You'll be that this is the number one game
in the world right now. I'd be like, "Oh, Jesus."
Yeah, I know. I know. The one one interesting call out is that when when they are looking at the total number of players on uh um steal your brain ro they they add the Fortnite players that are playing the same game but on in Fortnite. There is an official version of Steio Brain Road on Fortnite. So you now have a an experience which is multiplatform but but not hardware multiplatform kind of software multiplatform it's present in two different gaming platform you know it's it's I think that's super interesting when we when you look at the market and

how things will evolve we have been used to hardware platforms you play on console you play on PC you play on mobile you you play on this or that Roblox you you play it anywhere doesn't matter. The experience is almost almost the same or very similar, but the experience of Roblox can be replicated in other games. So, I I I'm really curious to see how how things will will evolve in in the future and how how everything will will be put together. Maybe tomorrow Roblox will be your main gateway to playing games, whatever the whatever the hardware is. And uh I I I don't know where where where this will lead, but when you have Roblox that's basically bigger than the Xbox ecosystem uh in terms of concurrent player, you you know that something is happening.
Well, I hope it leads to Roblox being profitable one day.
Yeah, that will come that you know when that will come where when the current Roblox audience will age and will not

leave leave Roblox. They will stay in Roblox. Yeah,
that that's when the monetary will will come. If if it
I think there's something about the staying power of the games has been increasing. It's not pop and drop anymore. They're changing the algorithm.
The conversions are not that bad. Like we're talking about one to two% of most of these games, even though the uh the monetization tends to be predatory at at best. Um yeah. Yeah, I I I get your point. Do you think that looking at Roblox is this an exception or is it a blueprint?
I think it's an exception, but it doesn't mean that it can be Yeah, it's a blueprint, but I'm not sure it can be replicated. That's more
So that technically makes it an exception.
Yeah, exact. It's it it was an exception where it was launched and it might stay an exception because it's difficult to replicate. Yes. I I don't I don't see people big communities shifting easily

anymore because
that's the parallel my kids they are teenagers do I think that at when they will be 16 they will move and play Call of Duty instead uh maybe maybe not but will they will have to bring all their friends to play Call of Duty and all the friends are going to have to pay maybe $60 to play Call of Duty and they play together while everybody can get in and out of Roblox everybody can play it for whatever platform you have. So I think the the the question is how quickly can the communities move from one platform to the other in the future. That that's what make it will make it interesting.
Yeah, there's there's two elements here actually. So you're saying one is your social graph and how your social graph is stable like you just you don't leave Fortnite after putting in like four or five years into it and building your your friend network there uh just because a new game launched. And
the second one is accessibility. When the price is zero and it works on all

the platforms,
that's quite difficult to compete with in that with that type of a distribution.
Yeah. And so kind of going back to it with how console has been going and is still going in PC games, like just increasing and increasing the price of production, increasing the price of the game, making it less accessible by requiring insane specs from a computer so you need to update your hardware to just play a game that has a lifetime of about 15 hours at best.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sounds like the stupidest thing you can have from a strategy perspective when you would sit them down like, do guys, do you know what you're doing and why you're losing? this is the reason and they were like yeah but every new game has to have better graphics it's like okay who are like why why are we even having this conversation
yeah abs and we were born as as kind of older gamers we were born in a world where the norm was different but the today's gamer they are born in the Roblox world that's the norm this is the norm why why would they put themselves

more friction and more constraint to play other experience why they can just surf from one experience to the other within a within an ecosystem that it's ubiquitous and where all their social network is.
So,
but you you talk a lot to the biggest gaming companies in the world.
Yes. Mhm.
And many of them are following the strategy of let's just let's just increase the amount of pixels and this is top franchise. This is multi-billion dollar franchise. We need to introduce the nth version of this franchise that is going to be less accessible and more expensive to make.
But you must be saying to them like, "Guys, I get this. This strategy has worked for you for the last 20 years and less and less successfully every time.
Probably less and less profitable. At what point will you make the switch?" And all I'm seeing from the outside is I'm seeing them wanting to sit put their ass on two two seats. They want to make

it
microtransactions but also paid.
Yeah. And well, it's about money ultimately
which which always results also into into backlash from the players.
And they still end up doing that again. They're like, "Ah, we can't go full freeto play." Even though War Zone was amazing success
and they were like, "You know what we should do next? go back to what we did before war zone.
I know, I know, I know because they I mean I'm just one part of the of the ecosystem. I I have opinions. I also have data. Um ultimately it's the publishers call to to decide their own strategy. They can they can listen to us or or not. Uh we're not always right obviously, but I think Roblox as an example is there. You cannot ignore it. You cannot say it doesn't exist. You cannot say it's going away. You you you can still position yourself as a competitor, but you're you're not likely to beat them or not

not in the long term. So it's more about how do you embrace that or do you make make your experience complimentary to that. Um so I I always think that there is there are synergies rather than really thinking that you know better than the market or you know better than the than the players. I I think there is still a lot of uh arrogance probably in some uh some some rooms at some publisher that they think they know better but uh yeah it takes a few failures for people to to back down and that maybe listen more to the trends and to what the the expert are saying. So um I I I still I don't think that there is a they keep um climbing the ladder of being the most beautiful games and things like that. I think this can this has kind of stopped down a little bit. I think if there if it doesn't serve the game play then there it's less likely to be important compared to before. Um but yeah it it's a good question.

I I also think that you will see less and less new expensive IPs. I think the the the the $100 million IP new IPS are going to be something you you won't see often. They will still be some tentative, but I think it's going to be very challenging because there are not many opportunities to be to be successful. Um, yeah, it's uh, yeah, I I'm convinced that the audience is gonna, how can I say the new audience, the new players have different way of playing and and different expectations than than the people actually deciding for for the future of of of the publishing of the industry. Another thing I I like to highlight is that it's getting an it's a it's a mature industry. It's an old industry, right? video games the 80s it's been like 40 45 years you have people in the video game industry they are retiring right now
yes
can we expect these people to know what

is relevant today you know that that that's also a difference in terms of the people that actually decide of of of where do they want to guide their big publishing or their big big studios
like they they are getting also oh we are getting old and and and we have to adapt to the to the new audience and listen listen to I don't know if that's possible. Like we I mean from doof side, we work with various different types of publishers from from the old dogs to the new breed.
Uh yeah,
meaning Roblox developers and AAA developers. And
yeah,
I feel like the the the first generation, the AAA developers are old dogs.
They can't learn new tricks.
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. and and they're so convinced in what worked always before that they just continue doing the same thing even though it's incredibly detrimental towards their business and becomes riskier with every release and at the same time uh let's say mobile

developers and Roblox developers you would say they're very close to each others I haven't seen the crossover where mobile developers with all their decade and so expertise in freeto would be coming in to Roblox and succeeding. Yes, maybe they've improved a funnel here or there, but all their tricks that they know that they are 100% convinced they will do 2,000 AB tests.
Yeah.
Useless. They can't and and they can't even come up with new games that would work on Roblox. It's uh it's it's the Roblox generation that can only satisfy the Roblox players.
Yeah. Potentially. Yeah. Which means that's where you have you have to get your people you know if you're a big publisher you you have to invest in this this like new creator or or you also have to Yeah.
But you talk to the boardrooms they are not young like they have just as much hair as I do.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I know I know I know. I mean it's a mindset. It's

a mindset. You know I I always see the goods in the the progress and the evolution and this is what's happening. You know there is always people saying before it was better but yeah but it was before you know you want to be successful today you want to be successful tomorrow you what happens before it's just uh it's good to know but but it's not uh it's not going to make you successful in the in the future just know your audience understand what's your target audience and design the game for your target audience I I I think we have maybe maybe to finish we have I think skate is getting out of early access today the the new skate which is not skate 4 it's just skate live service kind of skit.
It it it's an IP that was successful some years ago
for a different audience.
Yeah, different audience
about 20
gen X the millennial but now it's being released under a business model that resonates more for the alpha or for the younger audience. Is is it the right fit like an IP designed for an older

audience and a business model released in a business model for a younger audience? I'm I'm curious to see what will happen. Yeah, especially looking at the uh the graph that you have like the final graph that I'm showing here is the age distribution of Roblox player in general population kind of shows the uh the younger one.
Yeah, I'm 100%.
Mhm.
Really really interesting. Uh I have an outro question.
Yeah.
The the most important one. This is
not not the most important one. Just just to put you on the stop the spot. Okay. So, if you had if you had to bet on force shaping the next two to three years of gaming, whether we're talking about new platform, a new genre, or a new business model, what would you bet on?
I would bet on the big platforms. I would bet on the on on the Roblox. I think Roblox it's it's it will keep snowballing uh more and more. I don't think any hardware will come and and and make any change. I don't even think that

but that's personal perspective that the switch to is going to be like a massive success in in the long run. I think it had a good start but I don't see that as being really really a a game changer. I think it will be more and more players gravitating around Roblox. Maybe Fortnite even if it feels like Fortnite now is a bit of a weaker position because Fortnite is more positioned as a shooter and not the other experience are not that successful over there. But I think Roblox and whatever experience of game play will emerge of all the sea of different experience you have there. And maybe one or two developers will find the right game play and make a standalone experience based on what has been successful and then be successful as as a standalone. But I think this is where the the creativity will come and the the opportunity will come that what what people are playing right now. Yes, absolutely. In this in this platform,

manu thank you so much for
all the insights
and and going through through we went through the 200page
paid version almost. No, we talked about a few topics. Definitely for those who are working in PC or console, you you should get the new zoo paid report. It's so much deeper than the uh than the premium version that that you get.
So uh thank you for sending that one and u thank you for engaging in conversations about some of the details that I found to be interesting. Others might have different details that would interest them.
Yeah, thanks a lot for inviting me.
All right. Uh, everybody, new zoo.com. Just go there, get the report, and don't be an old dog.
So, thank you everybody.
Thank you.
You did it. You made it to the end of

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