Xsolla special: Apple's updated EU payments, DMA regime, new fees & requirements, web shops

I will cave to 27% then they're going to fight this for a couple more years oh we'll go to 24% oh they're just going to slow slowly decrease meanwhile they're going to try and figure out other ways they can you know milk money out of uh companies like us and then companies like that you guys would operate so I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon there are giant Monopoly they can they carry such this is no gaming podcast two and a half gamer sharing actionable insights dropping Knowledge from our day-to-day user acquisition game design and AD monetization jobs we are definitely not discussing the latest industry news but having so much fun let's not forget this is a 400 a.m. conference discussion Vibe so let's not take it too seriously well good uh welcome everyone um this is a very special episode uh again we're doing quite a lot of these special episodes lately

uh but yeah my name is mat Lich I'm Felix braberg and we are your host wait a second wait a you're gonna get a special intro yeah have a special intro Sam yeah because we're doing we're doing another one of our special emergency podcasts to discuss the latest updates to Apple's updated EU payments dma regime uh joining us this week Here Comes Your intro Sam and someone actually who knows a bit more about the subject we're joined by Sam gaglani from exola uh which is a payments company uh to help us give us insights on what these new mobile rules are so welcome to the podcast Sam thanks guys Hello nice to meet y'all or see y'all you do you want to give us a brief introduction and kind of why you are in a good position to kind of talk about the updates and what's kind of going on sure thing I'm Sam gaglani I work over at exola I do BD over here um exola is H just a quick overview of what we do we

consider ourselves like a video game Commerce engine we do payments Felix but we actually offer a bunch of solutions and tooling that allow developers and Publishers to go direct to Consumer which is why we're in a very unique position right now to um help help you guys get outside of the iOS and Google Play marketplaces um we've been doing this now oh my gosh three years meaning uh mobile web shops uh the company's been in business 18 but we started doing this right before the lawsuit we had a company that approached us with a hypothesis of trying to shift traffic away from the marketplaces to these stores and then the lawsuit happened and it just opened up a a windfall of business and what we've seen over the last three years is an evolution of how companies are approaching their uh ways of getting consumers to shift and then kind of navigating the changing guidelines and I think that's what we're going to talk about today yeah I'll Tee It Up really nice for us right and then we'll get started so to give us some

background here last week after intense pressure from the EU Apple intense pressure yeah as much as pressure as you know a government can do right but anyway uh Apple has allowed developers to choose between remaining on the current terms uh and conditions I.E a 30% I AP take rate or adopt their new capabilities where I quote directly from Apple where developers have the additional distribution and payment processing options available Apple will apply a reduced commission and optional payment processing fee and a fee for the first annual installs above 1 million in the last 12 months developers on these terms uh will be able to distribute their iOS apps on the app stores and or alternative app marketplaces and process payments using the secure apps uh App Store in payments purchase system an alternative payment service provider and or linking out to your web page from

your app so Sam that was a lot of so I just wanted to say like can you just describe to me what the hell just happened like from your perspective yeah so this has been going on uh for about a year and a half what happened about a week ago no a week before PGC London um was I think we kind of need to give a little bit of a bigger picture of what happened in the US because it feeds into what happened in the EU uh and you you just you did discuss this last week but the Supreme Court in the United States ruled that you need to allow uh you can you can steer people away from the app into a store um the EU uh commission's been putting a lot of pressure on Apple to essentially open up their marketplaces and the spirit of what the EU wanted which was you know hey I'm in the app I can use a third party payment option and make my purchase and all is good uh or I can steer a person in an

Ina message with a call to action to transact and I'm going to be very specific uh on how I say that to a store and all is good apple said sure no problem we will do that and all you have to do is pay a little bit of a fee or use our insanely complicated calculator to see what this will look like so essentially what they've done is they've levied a 27% tax on these transactions but that still means you have have to factor in payment processing fees um if you want to be Merchant a record then you have to factor in what it's like to be a merchant of record uh and you have to pay any fees associated with that and if you're going to do it you have to pay 27% or you can pay this crazy install fee and use our calculator to try and figure out what this will look like on top sounds like Unity sounds unity all over again yeah I'm getting there on top of that and this is the the funniest part you also need to integrate and you

our storit SDK I think that's what they're calling it which essentially allows us to track the user and pay purchasing Behavior which is insane to me so they can audit you in real time they still have the user so nothing's changed at all if anything what they've done has made it super complicated super opaque I can already imagine these meetings they had over the last nine months uh with a bunch of really expensive Consultants on how to make this super complex super complicated how to get guys like you to go into the calculator to see if this will work and you're just being totally misled that this will be a great way to operate your business I I I have the calculator set up right now for playx and I think I might have done it wrong can you like I'm going to share my screen and then maybe you can tell me if I actually did set it up wrong so I set it up for playx and maybe you can tell me if this is honest I haven't even looked at their d calculator because it's just yeah so

basically like here it is this is their this is their earnings in Europe uh from last year and this is how many installs they earn right from sensor Tower data and assuming a payment fee uh processor fee of like 3% uh is this correct like roughly like how much they be able to pay like is is 3% the payments fee that's like right about what's true or it's like usually 2.9 plus 30 for credit cards if they're used but but they that's if they're doing their own Merchant of record Services meaning they're doing it inhouse usually they're you're using a company to do that so it's not going to be 3% it's usually around five or six% for a company like playx it'll probably be a little bit smaller because there's so much volume yeah um but end of the day even if you do this and you follow all of the guidelines then you get the scare screen holy I'm being redirected to this external payment system and I it's super

yeah who wants to do that and I guess there a one strategy because I did listen to your podcast uh last week is well we sacrifice that one purchase and then once we get them into the store right they'll stay there but then M you brought up a really interesting point which was umies yeah you refreshing that like you're hoping someone refreshes or open new browser but if they don't they're still stuff there and honestly who does that who yeah exactly I would do it because I'm weird about like that but is the average gamer going to do that probably not well yeah average average gamer most probably know and also like I think we discussed with with yob like the the bigger whales and payers they will do whatever right they will do whatever correct yeah but it's a very small amount of payers they do account for a big amount of that Revenue however if you if you have that kind of connection ready with those whales and and I'll

give you a few examples of what we've seen you're you already know their phone number you already have their email address probably know them by you know their birthday trust me these guys know everything about these players you're just gonna give you know them personally you know you know them personally you're gonna offer a really unique Web Store experience just for them that have special packages and seamless frictionless payment UI so that they're in and out and you're incentivizing them to continually go back there because the expected value they're going to get from that score is so much more greater than that they would see in the marketpl and I know about one company who just like organized uh a very big uh Meetup for all their weals in South Korea very recently and they they paid for everything they flew there from everywhere and yeah yeah exactly do it Social Casino games uh I would say the the Forerunner or the leader in this stuff oh yeah they do treat them like C you know Casino patrons will they they

will definitely fly them out to what you just said an event like this or they'll actually fly to them they fly them to Vegas yeah or or or reward them with an experience um we've also seen it with uh core and midcore games where you have a older demographic that's been playing the game for a long time they all talk to each other in Discord or some Community forum and we'll see sometimes the store the the the publisher or the developer will create a very bespoke store for like 30 people like a 30 cohort store and they do that on purpose what they do is they create that store and then those people all talk to each other and then they're be able they're able to acquire items in that store that you could get in game but it would take like six months to get but now you can just buy it like that and then all of a sudden players in the game are like how did you get that oh I went to the store what store and then they open the funnel up little more a little a little more

granted those are core and midcore games those are games that have a dedicated player base those are games where players have been playing this game forever and they're deal hunting when we start to talk about like the less the more casual game it becomes much harder and I think this is where a majority of the the you know people out there are going to be like well how do I do this how do I get a kid let's say who's like 14 maybe 10 to go to mom and dad and say Hey I want to go to this place to buy this thing and the parents are like I don't recognize this at all this seems scary to me um and that's where we you want to offer like something tremendous whether it's a free item or such a discount that the parents like wow that's actually a pretty good deal I won't have to he won't he won't keep coming back to me for more stuff because I just have to pay one time and I'll satisfy him for a month um and then getting that user authenticated into the store has been another like thing we've been trying to solve for the last year

and a half two years so they don't have to go through this process of finding their game ID or trying to do use QR codes we're trying to use deep linking um there's a lot of that does on this does Apple actively fight you on this or how how does it this is just it's more technical hurdles like now you're asking a company who's so used to be you know working with Apple and Google to create either a bespoke uh authentication system into a store their own ideas basically yeah and so it really dep and I would like to say one siiz fit all but every company we've integrated has a different backend or a different off system or they're using something that's generally used and it's super easy but there's always always you know these little you know uh Corner cases that you encounter and so we have to account for everything before we make the store uh open to everybody um and honestly they don't care they really don't care it rep I think Felix you said

their App Store Revenue represents 12% of their overall business of their 2022 revenues yeah so that is estimated that is estimated can be up to 18 to 20 from 2023 we won't know argue it's actually more because you're not think we're not considering like the Ripple effects of the App Store and what that could lead to you know what I'm saying let's say it's 2025 right you think they're GNA give that up absolutely not if I were them I wouldn't give it up and if I could make it as difficult as possible I would do so because they care about stock price um they care about you know owning that user and they're not going to give it give in uh lightly they also have a lot of money to fight in terms of legal fees some I think someone said they've already spent 100 million or there was an article that referenced the amount of money they spent I mean just think about that that's insane good good year to be a lawyer huh yeah so basically I see this like it every I know every developer when

they when all this came out like oh one day we'll be able to present third party payment options all be good yes that will never and I hate to say this in I don't think that'll ever happen Apple will fight this tooth and nail at least for the next three to five years if not longer I think they will not allow you in their Marketplace to do a thirdparty payment transaction without some sort of friction when I mean and when I mean by friction I mean a a a fee right maybe they'll lower it to 10% maybe they will maybe they will or the payment vendor us let's say we will have to pay money to them to be in their place in their place play area so think about they're they're charging for Real Estate if you think about they're charging for that space in the app you think they're going to let us in there at no charge no way yeah we're gonna have to a verified vendor sounds like Unity um

where they will look at our payment SDK tear it apart look for security flaws say you need to pay us a nice fee of let's say quarter million and I could totally see that happening um and then we might even have to pay them a fee like these are all the scenar I mean I'm all these are all the scenarios that are bouncing around in my head um because those are the things I would do if I were Apple I would say I will cave to 27% then they're going to fight this for a couple more years oh we'll go to 24% oh they're just going to slowly slowly decrease meanwhile they're going to try and figure out other ways they can you know milk money out of uh companies like us and then companies like that you guys would operate so I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon they're a giant Monopoly they can they carry such power in you know in the United States government uh in the even European Union

there's just tooo much money at stake for this to just be over that quickly I just see this going on for a much longer time um now when it comes to the EU you know th this happens in March so I think the EU is going to look at these new guidelines and say that's not quite what we had in mind guys and I could see a push back uh from the EU um those that's once again me speculating it's no not basing it on fact but if I were an EU regulator I would say hey this a this looks awfully familiar to what you tried to pull in the Netherlands what you tried to do in South Korea and you did in South Korea so to me this isn't upholding the spirit of what EU wants um and it still seems very anti-competitive uh what what do you guys think I wanted to ask actually like what do you think developers who have a big user base in Europe can do like should they yeah around the regime or like's going on like not I I think you know and I just have this we literally we're discussing this earlier today with a

pretty large uh uh developer in the EU and their big takeaway was well at the end of the day it's still seems like we're going to pay up around 31 to 32% um and the user is going to encounter a lot of friction because they're going to see these scare screens we would have to do a tech uh you know integrate this store kit or whatever they're calling to track the user we don't want audits nobody wants that additional um and so what it reinforces is building powerful Web Store experiences and part of that means building the web store but then part of it also means how you shift users out of iOS or play to those stores so you can do it through social media you can do it through an email campaign because if you have their email address you can communicate with them that way you can do community forums Discord Discord or whatever for exists um you can use

retargeting campaigns um and then there's one thing that we have seen that's very clever is do retargeting though uh iOS yeah you can yeah you can out there yeah you still can I mean look I these are all these are all of the weapons or Tools in Your Arsenal I'm not saying you can't just do one you have to kind of do them all right you got to kind of hit them at all fronts and just before we started we were discussing few few things in store uh web shops and store web stores and uh you can do search engine optimization and you know you can do a lot of things uh a lot of things so if you type in web store blank company boom that gets pushed up um and it's on the first place yeah soy I think I think what I think what's happening right now is a lot of the larger Publishers um were everyone was like are you gonna go first are you gonna go first who's gonna do who's gonna take the chance Spiderman then it was very interesting to see like

one by one they all started going live and they they all talked to each other and they're like oh you didn't you didn't get in trouble no I didn't did you try that yeah I tried that oh I'm gonna try that and then they got to the next level so we saw kind of like this slow curve of you know people shifting slowly they were being very conservative slowly this year is I think the year where they're like we're ready to optimize we're ready to full throw our full marketing force behind it ready to do SEO we're ready to do retargeting we're ready to do like pushing all the social channels we're even willing to do something like in my inbox in my app I would get a message hey Felix check out this new update and you'd click on the update it would take you to an update page and there you might see claim your free item you click on that banner and that would direct you to a store that is exempt from the 27% that is exempt from tracking that is exempt for all the things Apple's trying to do because

essentially what you're telling the user is go to an update now when they get to the update page are you is Apple going to control what's on that page even though you that call to action wasn't to transact I don't think they can do that yeah and so this is what we've been seeing quite a few developers doing over the last I'd say year year and a half where they're kind of operating in that zone of directing users in app two pages that are not called to transaction that are not buy pages and once they get there they're seeing something that's pretty relevant to them in terms of whether it's a free item a promotion that's going on something that makes them open up the store um so so let me just interrupt you there so I was doing some digging uh before the podcast Y and I was doing on tilting point oh yeah oh hello hello this is a web store and if I scroll to the bottom uh that's you guys

right is this where you drive so you drive retargeting campaigns to a web page correct or you drive U so another example go scroll back up there so you see where it said all the way like that yeah okay uh limited time offers you could click on that update let's say that user got an a message in their inbox that said check out our update this could lead to a Star Trek uh tilting Point page I'm Star Trek page where there is an update but then there's a thing that says visit our store which would lead to this right and there they're presented with limited time offers so there's a there there's like a oh maybe I should check this out it's limited time uh and then you can buy the different types of currencies you can download the game you worked at the remarketing uh agencies and companies you know how it works it's the it's the same thing it's just the link is different you don't send users directly to the app you send them to VB and that's it yep yep and it's it's

quite same logic we've also seen some people that have high risk tolerance that like to operate in the gray zones um we like those yeah tell us more this is this is something I do not recommend of course so they got punished by Apple then for for building something like this and sending too much traffic or what no no no I'm I'm just talking about creative ways ways that we've seen people redirect um G it's an interstitial in the game which says click here and then they'll disable the interstitial during review period oh my God that's a little you say that's more balls than brains or I think that's pretty ballsy you're just hoping that the reviewer doesn't catch it um but that is something we have seen as well um we've seen companies do just crazy stuff like message inapp in the inbox saying purchase here and they got their hand slapped they didn't get Dlisted they were just asked to politely remove that

message immediately um but the damage had been done meaning to Apple because the users were able to see this store all at once yeah that was a that is a internal call that those companies made I would never recommend that because that could get you in trouble but these are the types of things that we're seeing like there's people that are way over here they are in that Gray Zone and then we have people that are the far other Spectrum where we're just going to offer apple or pardon the pun Apple for Apple meaning it's the same package that you can find on iOS and play I don't know why they do that and believe it or not people do it they purchase there and maybe they're just testing right now to see what the funnel looks like and then once they get you know some meaningful data they'll actually increase the value of those packages on the store but it's all over the place right now and it just really depends on risk tolerance culture of the company is another thing oh yeah um whether they're public publicly held yeah is another one what what's the

good success metric here like if if someone has a store that I showed like is it 10% of your IP payments that you're able to get there or is it 15 or is it 80 it's a loaded question so it depends on genre of the game is it core midcore is it a shooter is it Forex um it depends on the demographic of the user uh it depends on how much value you're offering on the store versus the marketplaces um but on average what we've seen oh now we've built like over 185 shops on average what we're seeing is around 20 to 30% shift and what I mean by shift is we're seeing people shift their spending habits from Apple and Google to these web Stores um coincidentally what we have also seen which is odd is that they are sometimes what we call loading up on bigger packages on the store but doing the daily little micro stuff on iOS or play

um so my argument back to Apple is we're helping your business uh it's sometimes it's incremental Revenue I mean and definitely sometimes there's cannibalization of that Revenue okay um but I would say you know on average 20 to 30 um we have partners that are doing 65% which is mindblowing but those are those are some social casino but some of these games it's Forex the games have been around a long time there's a really active Community they all talk to each other they almost feel like they're partners with the developer or the publisher like sure let's do it that's kind of how they how it's being pres like what that you see when it comes to Casual games like kids games or hyper casual games much much harder there's so much friction you have to overcome one

most of these games kids are either watching videos and then getting virtual currency for free or they earn something two um if it's something they want to buy and they're being redirected to a store then they have to go mom and dad mom and dad can you please get me this why why can't you just use you know my iOS no no no no you don't understand this that's where you have to present something that's so unique so valuable that's one more bonus friction point yeah parents yeah yeah that's the other one three it's the other way it's a social casino game and it's e either a man or a woman mid-40s mid-50s maybe even older and they are like what what just happened I thought I was here and now I'm here and why can't I use my apple and so they get really scared um so that's where education with like the community before you launch the store and you explain to them what's going on and why they should do it is important

on top of that I think and this is something we're really working on is creating a checkout that literally mimics iOS checkout so it's not our it's not our payment UI now what we're doing is we're literally it's called headless Commerce so you're ripping apart the payment UI so it just literally looks like that environment that you see in iOS um and we can show you examples of what that would look like but it's that would be awesome because don't you think this feels a little bit even more shady than oh well you know I'm scared because I'm just redirected to something else but now I'm I'm actually redirected to something that looks like IR but it's not IR so I I I think I should qualify that with like it looks like the game environment right so doesn't feel like you're being redirected to a payment UI very native it looks super native um on top of that you know what we're trying to do is give this user a sense of safety so there's a customer port number there there's all these things um that

are are part of it and then the developer the publisher if you go to I think it's on the Star Trek timelines page it might be it'll say YX Sola one of the one of the uh Publishers did that so users could say well what is it why is it and if it's not there it's on a different page scroll up y frequently Asked question okay it's not on this one it's a different store um which I thought was pretty clever like they were probably getting questions like why were why are you using this company um so a lot of it it's about education it it's about communicating value to the player and then making once they get there getting them through that funnel very frictionlessly and rewarding them in a way for doing it so that could be loyalty points exclusive web currency there's all these different components that are involved um and I feel like when I'm talking about this a lot of people are going to listen to wow that sounds like a lot of work um it is um

business business is a lot of work it is and you're right it's a business because you can make more margin however when you use companies and I'm not touting us but we have self-service tools that allow you to build these things super quickly without a lot of tech debt and then we're acting as The Merchant of Records so we're kind of acting like what Google or Apple are doing one one one quick question so what can you explain The Merchant of record a little bit because you mentioned it a few times and I'm still like f record is a very like uh archaic term that talks about who is responsible for digital sales tax that compliance who's responsible if a payment gets put into what we call a charge back or if there is a refund needed uh and then on top of that who's collecting the payment information so I'll give you an example so stripe what they do is they process the payment that's it and then if there's an issue like oh I see this charge on my card I

don't understand what it is and then there's a phone number I'm calling Felix's and Felix you're the developer you're getting a call from me hey I don't recognize this what is this and you're like uh and then you have to figure it out and how to you know refund that user or you know say okay well you know it's not a charge back charge back is when you call your bank and say I don't understand what this charge is two it would be um I now need to deal with digital sales tax because Sam was in the state of Washington he made a purch Felix has to figure out if he's the developer and he's just using stripe has to figure out how to display the appropriate sales tax and then pay that State IRS Place their money that's where you're acting as merchant record when we act as merchant record we do all of it meaning we present the payment method we deal with customer support and we display sales tax or vat in your on your behalf so you don't have to deal with it at all and I I I I used to work with when I was running my own company that's about 3% right uh what do you guys

charge on top of that for for the service then so for us it's uh around 5% and then if there's significant volume uh that 5% can go down a little bit yeah uh but what you get with all of that is not just the payment processing it's access to a tool called site Builder so you can build a web store Page within like a week very quickly uh and then on top of that there's all these other things we offer launcher because we didn't even get into distribution but we have a lot of people that are now creating a PC version of the game so that they can increase play time so you're now Distributing your game outside of the ecosystem owning the community that way um but now we offer that out of the box um we offer a way to offer affiliate sale opportunities to influencers and content creators so you have like a kids game or kids influencers they can start pushing a link to the store and then they get 5% per sale right um we are you have a midcore or hardcore influencer and they

they get way more they get way more so and then we have uh our account system ex all a login so it can either serve as a you know original login or uses be used as a proxy and the list goes on but I think what the point I'm trying to drive home is you get a lot for that money because it's not just it's not just processing one thing yeah it's just not one thing it's about setting up the store and then all the live Ops behind the store so once the store is up and running you don't just leave it alone you can't just say oh I'm going to build it and they'll come or it's like a garden you have to continually tend it over and over again refresh refresh refresh so what you get when you work with a company like us is we're doing that for you on your behalf or we'll give you advice on how to do it because we've been doing it for three years and then you know our interests are aligned because we only make money when a user makes a transaction and we don't make money if a user is so we're trying to help you guys get to Market super fast so Merchant of record is a term that's

super important yeah and it kind of differs so some companies say they're Merchant of record but they're not in the true sense so they may not cover vat in all countries or they may not be remitting appropriate sales tax in the United States or they're not really good with chargebacks meaning um if you see a chargeback usually your bank will contact the merchant and then the merchant doesn't respond Merchant in this case would be you and if you're doing yourself you're getting flooded with chargeback notices and you usually have to respond with detailed information we're doing that for you so there's a lot that you get for that extra few points okay so if I'm summarizing pretty much what we've talked about right now the tldr of this entire Apple change of rules in the EU is that's they're making a complicated on purpose the only way that a developer can win is to build something like a web shop and then circum Ed until the EU slaps him in the

face so I I think based on what I read on Thursday night I think the EU is going to push back before March 7th I totally see it coming uh so I either expect two things could happen one the guidelines will change which I can't see that rapple doing rapidly or they might push to date back I don't know um two yes you should definitely have a web and I'll tell you why web shops are important whether you use us or or you use a competitor of ours it doesn't matter I mean obviously it matters to me but the the bottom line is you need to be future proofing your business right this is a new world where you have the ability to reach your consumer directly without using Apple or Google at the very least you'd be derelict in your duty not to have a web shop at least set up not to have an agreement in place with a company like us or whoever you choose so at least you have that check mark So if and when you feel comfortable or if and when like maybe something

happens dramatic and everything's allowed you're not caught flat footed you now have the ability to do it so that should be a part of any company's strategy for five 10 year they're looking forward you need to have that in place at the very least and then you have to treat it like a store what I mean a store like think of it in the old days like retail um I came from Activision in 2003 and we made physical discs that we sold at retail stores these are the old days right so and back then it was all about you know selling it to Target GameStop and then having placement on the shelves and incentivizing users to go to the store like buy True Crime 2 and get a free copy of Call of Duty or buy True Crime 2 and join the Activision Lo sound familiar so it's about incentivizing the user using classical e retail or retail methods to get users to go to a

destination whether it's physical or digital at this point it doesn't matter it's about human behavior why would a human being go through friction to go to a place that they're not used to going these are the basic questions you ask yourself one everyone loves free yeah so if you can incentivize them with a free item whatever token free item that might be or a one-time purchase where you get significant value or a that offers an item that you've been grinding for six months to get but you can just buy it right now because that's within the guidelines you're going to get adoption to the store and then you want them to save your payment method so that they come back and when they come back it's not the friction it's just one click that's kind of how we're training and cons Consulting our our uh clients and partners on what to do but I think adopting that kind of mindset of need to Future proof and then need to think about a classic retail is super super

important um and the margin play is just too significant to ignore right now W okay well I think uh We've covered the topic diligently yeah well um we'll keep covering the topic is obviously a very big deal I mean it would be a very big windfall for developers if Apple loosen the grip on this a little bit but we didn't even get into side loading right like we didn't even talk about that like you know there's it's such a mixed bag like I know a few friends of mine in in the industry actually he said it at PGC London um the guy from mini clip he's like not a fan he doesn't think it's a good idea um and I initially was like really why and then when he explained it I'm like oh I kind of see his point like you know it could create fragmentation uh like it did in Asia um a bad actor Will slip through Apple can't stop them all uh and then that could actually Decay user sentiment on these apps that are being sideloaded um but at the end of the day Apple's still

getting their cut right so you want to go through all of those Hoops to like essentially just still pay 30% I don't know but I think the big takeaway from me and this is the big takeaway I got last week at the conference was Apple and Google are acting like payment processors very expensive processors yeah very true uh and the organic their own money that's how growth that you could the the growth that you used to be able to get from those marketplac that's long gone that's long gone long gone long so you're kind of in this survival of the fittest where you need to create a store or a place to send your consumers for users to go and then once they get there keep them there and if that like I hate to keep driving on it but that needs to be part of everyone's strategy uh moving forward and it's great thanks oh

seriously this is great yeah I learned a lot man okay really thank you very much for for coming a lot I'm sorry I don't know what a merch record is like yeah the Enterprise guys they're going to be okay they they have the resources they they can figure it out it's really like that Indie to Mid tier or that mid- tier that's struggling where they're really resource strapped and they're like well duh I know I need to do that but how the heck am I supposed to do all that and do my other job that's the guys I feel for and girls I feel for so if we can help in any way uh we will do so and that's why we keep pumping out new Solutions that's why you see us everywhere nice yeah to be honest and that's why you know we keep rolling out new products because everyone that works at exola was in the games industry I was in the games industry for a long time um and I think we don't approach it from a payment processor like Viewpoint we really approach it

like how can we be an extension of the team how can we help you we make money when you make money so we're all in it together that's how I kind of view it so there you go nice cool perfect well thanks for coming on thanks guys this was awesome thank you you later all right see you byebye greetings from California [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music]