Winning with Few Resources featuring Igor Puskaric | Game Dev Unchained Episode 204

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to the episode of kindof Unchained the number one game development podcasts about game development and the lifestyle of era I am your host Brandon Pham and Jordan me a special guest and I'm gonna butcher his last night I'm gonna try my best Yegor plus Gary am I correct on this close enough hello thank you for joining us this is the parts podcast of course that we asked about a little bit about your background where you are where you're heading just to give our listeners and viewers out there a little bit of idea who we're talking to this hour I have been involved in captive for

about nine years now being all over the place had a lot of clients and now I'm doing my second game ever that's gonna come out with speech joy nice hopefully going in the same direction this before but better so uh it's so I'm pretty good with accents right so your your does it sound like you're American where exactly are you you're from right now oh yeah I'm mr. Europe Croatia Croatia and well how like what was did you go to a traditional college or a self-taught no I'm self-taught at least that's how we say it although I have I got help from other artists early but mainly same

self-taught yeah basically what you do is just learn basics and use what you got and then all the extra knowledge gets kind of glues to that as you go mm-hmm so you're getting it we spread it as time goes and how's the good game development scene over there in Eastern Europe I know there's very few and spread apart or is it mostly driven by sort of India a lot lately yes like I feel like growing exponentially in the last few years it has been dead I mean for a great majority of my professional existence it was almost dead it's weird but it's growing really rapidly now well also it helps because game there is a like world mm-hmm world think it's no longer localized as much as before what do you say is the main impetus to kind of get the the game

development scene over there growing what was the main reason the last few years that has been feeling its growth over in Eastern Europe well I think it's the general awareness of gaming being think it's mainly runt mainly pushed by enthusiasts because because simply information is free and more and more young people can actually engage it I think there's the main driver and then laws and everything else kind of follows that and it's always late but it's getting more and more louder so I think that's that's - think that's great that's it's an interesting yeah that's an interesting thing so when you're mentioning laws were you are you talking about like laws that was restricting from creatives for creatives to to actually be into game development or what type of laws are you talking about that's being later

Jamie like business business laws when I opened my business we don't even have a category for such a thing we still don't mm-hmm there is nothing in the law is proclaimed game artist or an outsourcing studio or anything like that it's weird but you have to like tour claim himself as something and it doesn't exist because the laws haven't changed since to 2007 in terms of that Proclamation and then the taxation is high and a lot of other things I mainly did on the business end Rica still of course work for someone else but then you gotta leave you had to leave the country for now with the internet and the freelancer awareness growing it's a lot easier but of course people are the ones that are pushing it first

they they try they get loud and then law kind of here's an analysis what are the the most popular game studios over in Eastern Europe that worldwide people will recognize it yes that you think I think if you cry so that would be grote they made serious mm-hmm I think it was kind of it right right yeah definitely yeah there are the most the most popular ones right because CD Projekt is over in Poland Poland I think yeah yeah they're really really good and so are so do you think like these studios there that are like recognized worldwide are really helping that region to kind of move things along definitely yeah there's always some giant that is kind of a role model

it's gorgeous everyone else and then why can they push the blood behind them which is great so it comes about it's a great intensive for others too I mean there are a lot of people with ideas and if you gather a team that is both good to work with and full of ideas and has knowledge and you got something good going sure is there like a pretty big community over there that helps each other out with you mentioned you're working on your own game right now with with the small team like how did you guys go about finding each other well the studio is called space jar and we are basically cooperating I'm like an outsourcing element I may be only artist in the game how it went on it's because I was very active in self marketing and

had some success with it so my models probably brought into such spaces where they song and they reached out and that's how I met and it was a great thing they are very capable so we kind of managed to do a lot in that combination were actual a three-man team and we had some pros on occasion that helping us and we had a great help from tulips or famous people one of them is convert convert said well he worked on Fifth Element as a concept artist so I basically designed the basic tanks and initial buildings and he occasionally comes in and gives input on how to make things cooler also the music and we had better what kids you may know him as Juno reactor he did music for the matrix alright so they're kind of a they're

more like friends of spades are and they may need help in a joke gene so I felt really cool when I entered that team because I was still in sort of unknown eight but it was great to be surrounded by such talents actually well I don't count yourself short man yeah I've seen your work super talented and well it was it's these connections made through networking of the other two members or how about it did you guys get such high profile people to to help you guys with the game I think it's I think we found each other halfway through because as I work as a solo freelancer it's my job to market myself heavily which kind of help to them see me and they are they have

experience on there and they all miss for me that might not work and I believe it's kind of definitely went both ways if I move I can try and with marketing I probably invisible basically I'm sure it so you you marketing yourself is one of the skill set that I feel game developers even working at big companies I came from like the triple-a industry here and so I worked on huge franchises so my eyes have always been yeah it's been cool but like the thing that I feel that we suffer from from that side of the industry is that set the self marketing part being a businessman being able to be free from the job and be able to get jobs on my own type of thing right if I have to yeah and I feel like any developers have a leg up with that because you guys are forced to kind of

promote yourself but it opens us to a lot of opportunities that I would say that we you know Triple A guys don't really pay attention to or know that that's out yeah exactly yeah you have to be everything you have to be to create a designer art director PR marketing we also have to be an agency that produces material for marketing you have to come up with a plan what order and what weight from which flat platform it's like you encompass like five different people at least plus your actual work so it's kind of yeah it is caught in the beginning and it's not for everyone but yeah yeah really in just studio right that's it

definitely pushes into feed yeah very discipline and very motivated and committed yeah motivated more than this yeah I'm not really disciplined I just feel what I need to do and I just do it that's discipline maybe in Eastern Europe you have a different definition but I feel like Americans just have generally on over here in America I think the attitude is very relaxed when it comes to and I would say borderline lazy for people to kind of have a goal set and do it you say it's simple but a lot of people struggle with that idea because they get either distracted or at the very worse discouraged I mean they see something that's not working the way it is in their head supposed to work at

the beginning and they just quit but you're quitters so you say but that your answer alone like already shows that you have this mentality that a lot of people strive for which is you know I'm I sit it out and I'm gonna do it so I go do it yeah that's that's very difficult man is that something that you've always had growing up or was it something you have to learn through the hard way a bit of both I think a lot of that that comes out as lazy because I think their life is too easy mmm the thing with me is always want to be an artist but for example I had no internet until I spent twenty five so any potential I might have called Harold has been like I couldn't reach anywhere I couldn't show it so anyone it was very very like Stone Age so that was one tool that is replaceable and also the know

sort of you working as an artist was like unheard of mm-hmm it was a completely different world so I was forced to work on job that I hated basically or just didn't like I felt it wasn't for me and it's a very bad economical situation here so I was I combined my my desire and I was also pushed into just stubborn decision to do what I love her or or die basically like is this or that and that's a great like the fear not fear but it's like the other situation where you have no choice is a great potent for a strong decision-making in a way and especially when you grow and you have no proof of your success it's like it's like a stage dive with no people like

pure pure faith it's also a great drive and I think that kind of helped me become so aggressive with the other on artsy stuff mm-hmm it's a it's a point that I feel like listeners out there and viewers should really think about because a lot of success not just within the game industry but especially with the game history and art is determined by your location so that's why I keep coming coming back it's very impressive you know being in this Eastern Europe you're not completely surrounded by game developers like you said it is a growing market right it's it's slowly being recognized but you know it's there's still a ways to go and for you to kind of make up for that by determination and and commitment it's absolutely necessary

for you to kind of stand out and be noticed luckily there's the yeah there's no choice but you should be surprised like it's like that type of attitude that is necessary to kind of survive and thrive within the game industry chemistry's really hard I'm sure you've heard you know plenty of stories of even if people work on their dream job it's it's very difficult to keep that job and be competitive and work within the industry oh and yeah it's a little yeah position also oh yeah very sought-after yeah yeah like a million factors exactly the pinnacle desperate you are in depends on what's the culture of employment depends of what you're willing to do how you market yourself way of work you do for example I don't

do videos in human so I don't put them in my portfolio therefore I don't expect to be cold for it all so I don't I don't aim to work in a studio because I want my independence it's also kind of a character thing and you just push your way and hope you get lucky but that that's a decision I'm sure you made very early on in career because obviously probably has family and friends over there you're not really I think it's it's it's it's a it's thrilling if you're very young within an industry it's like I'll move wherever the job is right but what as you're getting older it's like ah you know I kind of like where I am everything about my life is great except for you know I want to work on certain games or whatever yeah but it is a decision that

you make early on your career in it sounds like you've made it and it's true it's like to kind of have that mindset of like hey you know I'm gonna make it work doing what I love but being where exactly we're gonna be was that something that you've always yeah start some of it was that something you really decided early on or did you try to like try moving around and thought about it's like you know what I really don't want to move like I really thought it through and I just don't want to move anywhere for moving actually the thing with me I always wanted to find a team that we do work or something however I see it's so unique and rare that I could find out right so basically if I found someone it didn't turn out well because it just didn't work mm-hmm so when I gave up and when pushed my own agenda and myself and then

I got followed by the right people I realized but regarding the solo work I actually don't like the notion of strict work time I like to make my own time yeah I think I want to travel to us radio because I lose what an hour a day is for me it's huge I can do a lot in one hour right instead of traveling to work it would be a killer especially more than half an hour it's like crazy yeah I totally agree with you man I I think I spent half my career of more than half traveling and I asked why I recently went full-time but I would say about a year there was a really good job in San Francisco what you know I live in Southern California so it's about eight hours away right so I decided that because I have a house

here I didn't want to move but I want to take that job so I took that job and what I ended up doing was I was away from my family throughout the week yeah and would fly back in the weekend just to avoid moving up to San Francisco so much energy so much energy is wasted but like he said as a creative you know we don't want to waste our time with other things than to be creative yeah especially if your business stuff business life in a lot of other other non artistic stuff it's really engaging I work all day yeah but because I work for myself it doesn't bother me it's more fun yeah it's way more fun because it's a little best it's not something that goes through you and and you lose it yeah you always keep your work behind it cumulates it's beautiful well that I would only work in a studio to meet

some cool people and maybe RF curiosity right that would be awesome that lesbians definitely a huge element just meeting people being social but you know for every good person that you meet there's like five to terrible people so I'm sure yes and that's the conflicting thing yeah that I've always went through yeah exactly that's the thing that I always go through with every job places like I love this place but those five guys over he just makes every day a little bit more difficult yeah so you kind of mentioned before I kind of want to dive a little deeper about how you before you went into self-promotion and it started to kind of

pick up and give you the jobs and types of teams that you were looking for you were going through this trial of like meeting people and trying to see this it was a good fit or not can you kind of explain that more in detail about what exactly well not exactly what happened but roughly like was it just because personalities didn't match or expectations didn't get met up or they're not as disciplined as you are or what exactly about it dinner late over time we just burst your bubble right because first of all there are no many people who know how to do the job for example and there are a lot of people who know how to work but they're very egoistic like to the point of poisonous mm-hmm like yeah and basically they're not like fit to work with people as much

as you would hope for right so it's like a clash of egos thing where people are making decisions based on them be right stead was good for the project right and when that thing happens over a course a certain time like it kills the project is a worked over for indefinite times and it kills your time it gives the money cause everything it just doesn't work mm-hmm well you sacrifice like everything else all the chances you missed you don't go anywhere it's not progressing it's just bad it's not a healthier work and other things were like different people different teams people are just lazy they get right to an initial idea like like children which is great and should but it's not like it's never kept going people get lazy like in the middle of the project and just everything dies

off right no I totally see this is something that I feel again coming from a triple-a background it's tough to kind of see that right because obviously when you're you know I'm used to a big team everyone gets paid to do their job and I'm sure I'm not saying it doesn't happen of course people get lazy or they're not doing the work that causes problems but you can hide behind other people and stuff and push the way greater control yeah exactly that's what I like I like I really like small most development teams it's right personal and works more effective right way more powerful because there's no like complex chain of commands where he would lose time mm-hmm and everything is clear like you know direct communication it's for me I love it mm-hmm if I can choose I would know what you a small strong team rather than the large right so have you tried toast

during this trial by fire before yes was it both remote and uh uh in a studio type of setting or was everybody in their separate homes more like friends in a garage oh wow okay so let me ask you that how was that so especially like the initial idea and I've talked to a lot of people this where you feel like friends are obviously the the best choice is like hey let's make something yeah let's do it but then you start something yeah you start seeing these issues right it was like man why are you not showing up or why are you not doing what you said you did does that hurt of course it affects because now you're business people right it affects your friendship and affects your business sort of however it's been a while for over a year almost three years Paige our thanks of the galaxy

that's beautiful before that I was with Timur hero with fleets of heroes and that was also amazing it just the only way I met because it's not it's no longer part of my experience right now but as you say 12 by far you know in time you just leave what is not good that keep what is basically the only solution unless you're lucky enough to just have first time luck which is awesome right like it took me years to find myself in a situation where I'm pleased with everything and then I see someone like 17 years old wow I hate those guys [Laughter] yeah I mean it happens I mean that's what's great about industry our industry doesn't really require any college degree or we actually hate it or you don't even don't hate it but we don't

really think about it as long as your portfolio's there yeah it's people they don't teach you life yes more like Klump acknowledged over as many years as possible without the core knowledge it's weird mm-hmm colleges are weird no no it's a natural knowledge right yeah useful knowledge so is that the because uh to kind of write off of that comment it's like the United States right now is kind of like on a decline when it comes to educational when yet the increase yeah increase of college tuition is insane and even with people with a college degree or coming out of school with no jobs to go into and this is not just game this is overall right because all the jobs are being automated right even lawyers coming out like doing doing legal

paperwork like the initial four years are being automated by these big companies of like computers can figure that out I don't need you you're only great yes Ross so is this something that's happening over there in Eastern Europe you guys have the same attitude or are you just a little bit more a little more more foresight than that depends on the individual I mean many people are not really techie here right and they don't even think about it right but the ones that are the ones that are curious about it know it so we do take it consideration like planning future stuff but the school system is so slow yeah it's not in a single step which changed change happened way too fast for

the school system to get up it's crazy it's gonna be really easy yeah yeah is is college or education well I mean of course all countries value education but like traditional education is it valued over there as hard as like you have to go to college yeah okay it's not like you have to but it's still valued okay it's not like it's completely useless but thing is the colleges are not organized and played plant based on work demand mmm-hmm so like we have like economy students that can cannot find an employment yeah it's like a school system college it's it's people up through it and then just doses amok yes it's about it's not tailored in an efficient way mm-hmm regarding gaming there are some

school like machina school mm-hmm the game but that's more like dota College it's like a quick course directly through onto the gaming and the only thing it's like this little these little individuals who decide to go there basically are the pioneers that are pushing it and more and more based on their example I believe that official state education system will catch up on it mm-hmm but then there's a demand for professors and to be a professor you need to finish more school and while the industry is going so fast by the time you finish that school it will be outdated yeah so they hire people they are now in the industry that's the only way like if you work in an actual studio an actual game then you can be a professor otherwise you cannot be too relaxed which is

something that we need to figure out I think yeah it was something that uh you know uh after I went and graduated college and started to work in the game industry I went back to teach and it was a weird thing that was happening before I graduated where they like you said they wanted professors with master's degree to teach game design and game development and it's like who are these guys who are not working that has the time to get master's degree in game development as the only guy with because I know what it's like with a full-time job there's no way at the time they like do this at night or something yeah and like you said eventually we had to yeah they had to hire real professionals because like you said it's a fast changing industry where you have tools coming out every day and for someone to be also in a classroom yeah yeah the system itself is not tailored for creative thoughts but for worker

mentally it's like you're not taught how to think more like absorb data that's also an issue about also on the other hand if you're gonna just learn new stuff you can learn forever which are not good because if you just learn there's so many knowledge so much knowledge in so many directions that you have to stop somewhere otherwise you wouldn't do anything and never so basically what I learn is the core of software enough to get me what I need and as a certain beginning then I learned what I need when I need it I don't use my free time to just learn for your learning sake yeah for sure it's something that I I've

noticed myself to like because there's so much software so much stuff tutorials like you said that is teaching constantly new techniques and I can literally sit down for like three months straight kind of going through the lit my list of stuff that I want to learn but like you said without it being applicable without it pertaining to a project that I'm trying to figure out right now I'm gonna forget it like you know I said me too yeah i sat down yeah I said that was exactly I was sitting down with some designer yeah and I was sitting there saying I got it yeah yeah like I don't understand any of this anymore what is this project with the new stuff right so it's it's in muscle memory commit yeah then I use it on occasion when it feels like I should and

then it stays with me otherwise not just a new phone best through my head like daily use I've seen here and that's why and also what you said yeah the the project itself has a character that demands a certain set of tools right yeah the secret sauce to learning is something that we've never taught in school like they never teach you how to learn and yeah I would investigate best knowledge the most important one Khalu learn mm-hmm how to keep your mind empty when it needs to be caught one learn stuff is also important yes some new knowledge new needs from your end to forget the old knowledge this is very hard mm-hmm like new all new new Albert is like optimisations no problem it may be different ways of modeling exactly exactly and it's something that I feel like a lot of a lot of students in the

United States are a really lazy about like we you can imagine we have so much resources around we have schools you know especially I live in LA right which is a lot of the studios are there in Los Angeles and I've went to school with students that was able to take out loans to have their parents paid for it and you just sit there and never did anything with it yeah and that's why I kind of love the fact that I think the harsh reality that you went through to kind of gain this knowledge and your ability succeed within the industry is it's really necessary with our industry in particular to have all the resources available and do you like your stories right you gotta like I feel like it's necessary to fight for it and I that's why I feel like the indie developers are in a better position than the triple-a

developers sponsors yes and it's true how they're the future yeah and it's because of that material warfare yes exactly but it's that mentality is that is necessary because you know the industry is kind of going through a rough rough patch right now with how to deal with crunch culture and and dealing with people and yeah and so without the yeah without the fortitude that you you've built with being an indie developer of like surviving and being able to like we really love the craft enough to kind of put the time behind it I feel like was very tough yeah yeah and like you said

the way you're learning and you're constantly learning is something that developers who are in a cushy job right don't really do as much you be surprised like I've been in these studios they're people just stop learning new stuff they just like hey I'm doing this one thing for the next five years until this game shifts I'm gonna keep doing that one thing and they forget and not going through that see all the software that's what I mean it's a different mentality I changed an experimentation mm-hmm so many cool stuff were made of their mistakes like like it we need something I make a concept it's good but it's not like good for a game because of the direction the are direction has been decided but then the same thing change the color and works perfectly on a poster for example yes you know nothing

is lost and mistakes are which look cool as long as they don't take too much on art and cheek but the point is learning and experimentation that then it's a life project evolves organically well we'll keep it consistent within the initial idea of it so those on both can program an artist site right and keep my site right begin our day we'll try it out call it improve it remove it whatever nice [Music] and it's cool it's always interesting like it's never it's never the same each day mm-hmm which is why I wouldn't do anything else it's something that I personally am I kind of going through like wait yeah how would I best describe I'm going through like a middle-age crisis of a game developer right now

where I you know of course I'm very proud of all the games that I've helped shipped with like major studios and everything and had a you know a good career but I haven't felt like I contributed anything period because mainly because I got in the industry because I want to eventually make my own game and without me kind of putting something out there that that I can say that this cannot exist without me right uh-huh where I you know I can't say that with the other big games because other big games are big but they would have been made even without my input right I was just there to help and I'm at an appointment exactly and this is something yeah this is something that yeah and I'm at that point where especially with this podcast and talking to so many developers history's yourself for doing the things that like you know what what

they're doing is exactly what I've been wanting to do and yeah and it took me a while to kind of figure that out because I know the other the other story see a lot of any developers you know are trying something and they eventually want to work on a big a big game right but I'm always standing there myself yeah I know what the work yeah yeah exactly like that yeah so I'm staying there like it's not that great over here you get free doughnuts once in a while but it's not it's not that it doesn't the satisfaction I feel as an artist is like you know you get some of that right when the game ships or whatever with a big company but you can't really just stand up there and be like this is me this is what I helped without my int input you know a major

percentage of the game would not be there can't say that with like the Last of Us you can't really say that with with God a war right unless you're the creative director and maybe like some of the leads like that yeah yeah I'm still read the actual creative writing for very few right I I would say only maybe the creative rector maybe the art director maybe but like anyone outside of that circle is like come on you don't they could have hired someone else you know the same production beyond the point of idea right so there's this something that you feel like you've been a hundred percent able to fulfill just being able to work for yourself for self-promotion and working in smaller teams is like hey you know think so yeah okay I feel like everything I do is like

98% mine see that's what I'm missing yeah like it really is like four fleets of hero's game they were awesome they bought my drone back and I took it and I adapted it to have ten grades of development visually and they're now in the game one changed almost I also designed the buildings it's like 100% my design my production and also animated some trailers which is also I feel mine like I don't have anyone above me I just got them to say they're happy with my work and it still remains my life like my child yes and that's very similar stuff is with tanks of the galaxy I did like 95 96 percent of all art in the game it's like my personal portfolio

that everyone could play it's beautiful yeah and I think that is because I get like a sense of that when I'm doing right now in full Tom my all my own stuff in and I'm working with a few friends on a game but like I get a lot more satisfaction like for this podcast for instance right you know I edit it I put it up it's out there people can listen but like that feels more fulfilling than me shipping like again it's weird right but it was like moments like that when I was working for somebody where I felt was missing and it took me a long time to be like what's going on you know I've I've done the things that you know as a kid we always want to work on call duty valid whatever right it was like those games that I played I would love to be on these but once I got there there was there's just creatively I was not satisfied like the

logic was full exactly and it took it took me a while as an artist to figure that out and I am glad that I was able to kind of make things work so that I don't keep on doing that you know just showing up to work doing things I don't feel 100% into but talking about first it helped yeah what you get yourself into because I sure you have like friends and context that doesn't have to be in the industry itself that are feeling that type of void right like with their jobs and yes all types of people and that's crazy right you see eight hours yeah I mean what are the working conditions over in Eastern

Europe is it we have like an eight hour forty or forty hour week type of thing same thing yeah some some gaming come basically very cool inflexible like you have to work your own eight hours but it's you don't necessarily have to go there where you can go at 9:00 but then stay longer right sometimes you can work at home thing is the gamedev guys are like the first humans yeah in terms of social understanding because we all kind of came from the garage right and it's it's no it's not that corporate here which is great mm-hmm so it's cool but the basic other classic type of jobs that's sometimes people can work without weekends for like minimum wage and quarter stories in a similar manner again it depends some

firms are good but basically it's not a cold situation economically mmm-hmm obviously you mentioned a lot of harsher reality over there where you live and a lot more difficult to kind of do the things that you want to do and of course we discuss the ways that you know you were able to take advantage of that and have a leg up on on anybody because I'll take you over anybody that has been very cushy in the United States you know I mean it's a different mentality because I think that techniques you feel the drive the drive for returning clients for example and I can't do the job but then I I know who I can recommend to take that client mmm-hmm so basically we we try to create a network of capable

people and keep the clients happy mmm-hmm it's like a like an ecosystem and I guess or work at demand mm-hmm we also also as you said I understand where another solo artist works and I see what Hollywood City behaves it also trusting far more than what you say pushy people yeah because they're flaky you cannot content and also the one to recommend someone that is on and off all the time because I would feel like a shame yeah it's um it's a it's a often on switch for a lot of people you feel like because I'm with people at work there's like oh man this guy's kick-ass he can do a lot of stuff but then as soon as you start working extra time you know another project after work or whatever it's like you're not even the same guy this is lazy person because I

guess a lot of it is has to do with the mentality right it's like you this is my my life depends on this versus fun this doesn't matter if it ships or not it's like no man how you get anything done like Marist yeah yeah the golden middle is when it's always fun and it gets yes I also I'm just not cool right I think you think there's something to that as you're mentioning like it it's people very right like people who are used to finish like a finishing junkie likes being knowing what it takes to to finish something see it all the way through and feeling that satisfaction people who are lazy you don't get to the finish line as

much don't know what feeling so they don't really get too attached to anything else past the beginning what I do when I work on something it's usually something I love to do so I kind of get in the zone it's like a child playing mm-hmm I just work at it with a gun right and I don't have the laziness syndrome that it's not because I'm disciplined but because I it's just hilariously fun the Jesuit unless I feel like I feel like they're very close to having automated you v's I mean they're already doing a lot with it though it's close it's getting there I can't wait but on the other hand I love

the controller like that locate release meditative is what I've heard a lot of people say yeah I'll just surrender to it right yeah it's like you're so abused by the process where you like I feel no that's how I see you Visia I'm right there with you man yeah so like it have you always been in love with 2d and 3d I have you you know are you starting to get more into effects because that I've seen the pathway for a lot of artists where it's like get into the art side of things and then they start to get really technical I mean where are you in the process with that being the the one man like oh yeah yeah sort of but then we go

back to the other point that you just can't always learn right where I am is I like creativity and what I like is like the idea I need to create and then this idea pulls out of me Rindy or 3d or whatever is needed and I just embrace everything that helps along the beds so basically I want more of a slave to an idea that moves in the techniques then the technique itself miss left circle that's a sake dude like that's exactly where I am right now as an artist is where I'm remembering the practicality of learning things it's like you said before or there was a period where I was like oh you know everyone's into that I should learn that it's like everyone's talking about this I just run on this yeah that's wrong because I would find myself it's like I I'll get as far as

like I get it now and then two weeks later is like I don't remember a thing I learned because I never used it for anything and right and the way you're exactly the way you're going about it is very indie development centric where it's like hey I had this idea I want to portray on the screen I either can find people to do it or I can learn what is necessary and you know be a stronger artist it would be so awesome yeah what does it take yes and then you kind of create like this yeah on curriculum your own curriculum of studies it's like all right it's custom-made yeah pipeline is created it's nothing is by the book mm-hmm strictly like you teach the parts you don't need it an accent accent that you do need it mm-hmm and it works

beautiful yes and uh I just by changing that mindset I've been enjoying the process a lot more than that because now I have find a goal to kind of see where all this is going into and was like oh now it's starting to come together it's it finally makes sense it's something I'm it's a useful knowledge instead of just you know things that I'm learning on the side you know yeah creative playground exactly to get stuff done mm-hmm but you're pushing yourself like violent motivation it's more like inner work more like inspiration from within you you're not like chased by the boss mm-hmm but rather you want to make it true it just goes are more powerful less better and pushes you much more quality weight and I think mm-hmm I'm finding it also like very helpful now being somewhat knowledgeable about art too

to help with the learning process because you know at the beginning of things I don't know much right so I'm like piecemealing I'm trying to figure things out course-by-course but now like you know we have some context of how these programs are being used we're like all right you got to learn this to kind of be able to do this you don't really need a mentor you kind of guide you through which you know a lot of new students would have to have that person to kind of tell them like you got to learn all five of these before yeah yeah yeah I think I think when you're in the stage where you don't know absolutely anything I think you could use like a course for that like at least three or four hours just to get in and then you're on your own although I was self thought I wish I had someone to show me like yeah yes first because although you have software but

you don't know what it's mainstream is like the main five tools right how you how you approach you do know what's valued it'd be interesting like polygon count or the way you do the stuff in animation it's like meta knowledge that software doesn't have in itself right experience where a person is needed yeah it's best to comment or like for 10 hours to jumpstart you and then you can go yeah but if you're already into it then you're no longer need you just need information when you need it I got class and then maybe something super kind and again you matter so I have one last question you know what would you say to artists out there that are either students or professionals out there that have less resources and others based on

location or whatever else they're best chances of succeeding within the game industry however they are I'd say do the best thing you can do with the resources that you do have mm-hmm it has worked for me my first job was I learned one and a half hour late tutorial for ZBrush which helped me build my own spaceship concepts that got me the first contact with the negative and compared to what actual knowledge is I was useless but this one step that I took a maximum amount of helped me get the other resource so that's that's what

I think just do whatever you can with what you have and make it best that can be with what you get because there's a lot of choice well I mean that's the important part you got to make it like you said yeah I mean it's pretty dramatic but like do or die I mean it's really true you got a really treat it like that or else you can make excuses excuses will be so easily excuses actually correct maybe but sexual correctness is not always best to follow if you're an artist facts will crush you and deliberate if you are brave enough I'm sure it doesn't you have to be persistent yes what's huge I think I think that's correct I think and don't surrender and all the classic stuff you say about Julia exactly I mean that's the only way

you move on to the next step even if you have the only way oh yeah yeah even if you are successful to get to the next stage you got to be persistent besides that there's always something unattainable almost you always have something to chase so it's just keep that in the mind so gonna be good okay well Igor we are about that one hour mark this is the part of the podcast where I hand the mic over to you to promote shout out give attention to anything or any cause that you want people to pay attention to so I'm gonna shut up and I'm gonna let you talk thank you very much well it was a great pleasure to be here I would like to mention that thanks of the galaxy mobile games we working on and it's now it's

soft launch no almost and currently me taking a sign up for testing you can find us on Facebook Instagram and official page for space jar and texaco galaxy stand I hope everyone's gonna come on great fun inside because we did and that's that's about it for now thank you well all links and information will be provided with the video with the podcast I want to thank each or for coming on to the podcast and talking with us it was super enlightening and super encouraging and you just make me feel lazy so I'm gonna go back at it and make sure that I'm keep learning it is something that you know we got to keep doing man to be relevant yeah so uh yeah I want to thank you guys yes

and so that ends today's podcast thank you guys I'll see you guys next week you guys want to say bye to everybody before we head off goodbye people thanks guys [Music] [Music]