He Quit His Job & Became The Lead Artist On Twisted Tower (w/ Felipe Caravelli) — Ep 73

What if I told you that you didn't have to make your own indie games to be a full-time indie game developer? What if I told you that you could contract out your services, your skill sets, your forte, and that is your full-time gig? That's what my buddy Filipe Caravel does. He's actually the lead 3D artist, level designer, environment artist, weapon artist for my game, Twisted Tower, and I am so thrilled I am so thrilled to finally introduce you guys to him in a full podcast. There is no other podcast guest that deserves an episode on this channel, on this podcast, than Filipe Caravel. He's responsible for, frankly, the overall look of Twisted Tower. Sure, I'm the art director, I'm the the storyteller, I'm the developer. I pretty much had my fingers in everything, [music] but Filipe took leadership over the
[music]
art, over the environments, the weapons, the whole look of Twisted Tower. He did an incredible job, and so he's going to

break down, [music] number one, how to make a game that is an independent game almost have a double-A look, or [music] maybe some would even say a triple-A look, his workflow as a 3D designer, his thoughts on iterative game design and development, and also just his thoughts on the industry and how to survive as an independent contractor for game studios [music] in 2026 and 2027. And by the way, if you want to learn to, who knows, maybe go full-time as an indie game developer, or [music] you want to make money as an indie game developer and finally, finally finish your commercial game, I have a workshop below called the Full-Time Game Dev Challenge, and you're going to learn from me, three-time published indie game developer, who consistently makes money from his games before, during, and after launch. It's one thing to be able to, I don't know, prompt a game into existence with AI. It's another thing to make a profitable product, it's totally different. I'm

going to show you my process from idea to release of your demo and your game and how to turn it into actual revenue. This is a three-day challenge. It's live. You're going to talk to me directly. I'm going to answer your questions. I'm going to show you my process. I'm going to get to know you. There are limited seats available and the challenge is coming up. So, click the link below to check it out. Have you seen any AI tooling that um is frightening in the 3D world? I guess what I mean is competent.
Yeah, I guess I guess that's really the the crux of this, right? It's It's not there yet. Um
[snorts]
It will be, probably. I don't know what to make of it yet.
I know. I don't like it. But, it's here. The I've seen some of the tooling and just topog- topology topography?

Ology?
Topology. Does topology even matter anymore? I know that's a dumb question, but like when I think about AI art, I'm like, if it has if it has like decent topology or like it's like a C plus, is that good enough these days?
I mean, it really depends on the application, right? I feel like um some of the techniques and how to use these models are still very traditional in some sense. Uh so, people might encounter problems down the road with using something that was AI generated. It's hard to come with like a practical example here. I can see that being more problematic for things like characters and things like that.
Yeah.
Uh animation and how these things talk to each other, but Yeah, I I I think the the conversation around that is last maybe about the technical side and more about the artistic integrity. Yeah, authorship and uh

because like I someone I I heard someone like someone talking about like uh what does what does it mean for someone to be able to like I see I see us in like in this era uh similar to the late '80s and early '90s when people had camcorders at home and then they were uh making their own videos and maybe starting their own businesses and things like that. They had this immense power in their hands uh to do things that only TV studios could do before. Just film yourself, you know, and just uh make productions at home and there were amazing things from that like uh indie movies and you know, you know better than me about the stuff, but um but at the same time there was a lot of crap as well.
I know.
Yeah. So, we are we're still in the infancy. So, like uh I can see like maybe another 10 years how that's going to shift the cultural perception of these things, you know, and how accepting people will be. I see like people saying like, "Well, I can make like something with AI uh and I'm going

to here I'm going to make this Star Wars fan video here for you and then I want you to watch it. Why am I going to waste my time watching what do you make? I can make my own, you know? So, you're essentially you're not making content for other people, you're making it for yourself and that's where we're kind of at and what I think we'll be, you know?
I'm just wondering is there a market for that? Uh because that I'm I'm I'm where you're at where it's like I only want to consume artistic stuff, anything of the arts like music or movies or games even. I only want to consume them because it's almost like I'm hanging out with a friend. Do you know what I mean? Like when I watch a movie from like my favorite directors. And I've said this before like I love M. Night Shyamalan. I love I love that guy. And so I'll watch any movie he makes. I feel like I'm I'm in a conversation with him when I'm watching the movie. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, totally.
Or like I know you listen to some strange stadium hard rock or whatever it

is. Um
Metal.
But you feel a connection to it, right?
Absolutely. Yeah.
is it is it what would you listen to it if it was AI? Or would you feel a connection?
Matter of fact, I mean there are some there might be some stuff in my playlist that is AI generated and I don't even know. Sometimes you can tell, but like it's just getting so good that um that is uh and I'm like, well, if I'm listening to it and I'm not having a problem problem with it, then you know, I guess it's okay. Um But if I know
you find out, the moment you find out.
Then it it really puts a lot of things in perspective. I I I totally agree with what you said about the conversation that you're establishing with that uh the the the artist is just um if there's no human on the other side, it's just kind of um what are we doing, [clears throat] you know, like uh like um we're just consuming for the

sake of consuming. Uh we're just not building any experiences anymore. Um
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think about I think about and then we'll move on from this cuz I'm I'm I don't want you to get in trouble.
Yeah. It's all good.
Anytime we start talk Any anytime I start talking about AI, there's you just there's a risk. There's just a risk. It's such a touchy subject, yo. But you know, I think about how everyone's begging for handmade content and and that you know, you see it all over social media. We want human-made. And then a movie like Digger comes out and you know, nobody really showed up for it. And it it's a very obviously so human-made. I mean, the thing just looks so handmade. But the problem is I think that this idea that I'm going to soapbox a little bit. But this idea that with the tech we

have now in film and games this idea that things I I don't think studios are allowed studios are allowed to make things super expensive anymore. Like I mean Digger was like 200 million bucks or something. And it's like let's see here. What is the budget of Digger? And let's see here. 125 million it eventually ballooned to 100 million. And then let's find the marketing budget cuz that's part of it.
Yeah.
The marketing budget was 100 million. And then you look at AAA, right? AAA, it's like what what's a what's a AAA game that you're really interested right now? That's that's come out recently. Is there any that you're I think you mentioned one on Discord the other day.
Uh right now? I mean everybody's going to talk about GTA 6, but that thing is just
will pay off. That one will pay off.
That's a different that's a different case, yeah.
Uh I don't know. I don't I don't play AAA games. AAA games coming that came out recently. I'm going to

look this up.
Yeah, it's up there in the price as well.
Gears of War EA Star Wars. Okay, Galactic Racer. This is a good one.
Right.
Galactic Racer budget. I'm sure it'll make its money back. But let's take a look here. That game looks awesome by the way. Are you interested in that?
Yeah, I might pick it up at some point.
Okay, well anyway, I don't know what the budget is, but my point it's not telling me, but my point is is that I I'm wondering if it's not profitable anymore to make things super expensive. And so on one side you've got everybody who want who wants, you know, you see it on the all the time on social media people want human-made stuff. And then when human-made stuff gets made and it's really expensive, it seems like sometimes people just don't show up, you know? And then like you said about that song, like let's pretend you have an AI song. You don't even know that it's AI, right? And so we're in this weird conundrum where people are saying saying that they want human-made stuff, but then they're consuming AI stuff,

whether they're scrolling on their phone on Instagram. Like I get so much AI content and I'll watch it, too, mhm, you know? Cuz a lot of times it's just hilarious.
Yeah.
So, I guess my point is is that what people say they want from like an um an integrity level is not the way that they actually spend their money and their time. And it's kind of sad, and I don't really know what to do with that. You know what I mean?
Yeah, we're going to look back to this time, you know, and I think we'll either realize how much how naive we were or
[laughter]
or just I think naive is is a given, cuz like there's only so much that we can predict where with what where this is going. You can listen to these guys were evolved and have a lot of stake in it, and then you're like, "Should I be listening to this guy or girl?" And like and do they really know what they're talking about? Are they trying to push an agenda here? Is this about profit? Uh it's just so hard to know
Yeah.
what to believe and like what to think

about these things. So, yeah, I guess we'll have to see. We'll stay productive. We'll stay doing what we we love doing, cuz that's all we can do. And uh we'll leverage whatever help that it might bring as long as we don't sacrifice everything in the process. That's my hope, you know?
[laughter]
It's And it like you said, it's hard to know we are naive. It's hard to know what we're sacrificing right now. Like
Yeah.
Uh well, the genie's out of the bottle.
Yep.
Or you know, it's like what what are you supposed to do now? Um the any any semblance of legislation or laws about, for example, I don't know if you've seen this, but like all over social media, it's like AI is able to decompile AAA games.
Yeah.
And put Mario 64 inside of Twisted Tower.
of that. That's it's just insane stuff, right? Stuff from like a fever dreams when you were Like I just saw one that puts Counter-Strike into Warcraft 3 and

you literally there shooting, you know, mobs and units and stuff. It's I think there's a lot of value to gain if you're spending time to learn, you know, things from this if like this this experience is actually leading you to understand what's behind the scenes and things like that. When you just use that I mean, granted, a lot of these probably are just for fun, but like but if people that are using these things to actually study and develop like some knowledge behind practical knowledge that they can use in other areas, I think it's more power to them, you know. Uh That's the only benefit that I can see just that you can do things faster and you can learn from that.
Well, you know, there's part of me that loves it and then there's part of me that hates it.
Yeah.
Because it's like
[snorts]
I don't know. I think the answer might not be legislation and then we'll move on here, but I think the the answer might not be legislation. It might be AI tooling that creates tools that make it

impossible to decompile the code.
Mhm.
I mean, I don't know even if that's possible.
Yeah.
I'm sure James, who you and I are working with, I'm sure he would he would probably like there it's impossible to to make it not something that can be basically rebuilt, you know.
I will see, man.
I don't know.
Well, I mean, that that brings me to Twisted Tower. And by the way, for people who are listening, Felipe is the mastermind artist. Why don't you tell me a little bit about like what you worked on with Twisted Tower?
Well, hi everybody. My name is Felipe.
[laughter]
Uh I've been working with Thomas for over 5 years now. Yeah, since 2021. And something that I uh never shy to say uh is that uh this guy he gave me an opportunity that um it's one in a lifetime kind of thing because I've been studying 3D and game design since 2009. So, it's

like long time ago now. And but you know, life [clears throat] things happen, you know, you got to be responsible about certain things. There's decisions that you make. So, sometimes the journey is not you know, the expected, you know? So, it's um it's tricky to get into this industry. I guess that's my point.
Yeah.
Um so, you gave me that opportunity when you saw uh some of the asset store stuff that I uh was selling. And he was like, "Hey, I got this game called Father. You want to do some models for me here? Like and we can start there." And it developed uh this uh great relationship that we have. Like um and here we are with Twisted Tower. And uh very proud of the work that we did there and everybody involved.
Well, I am super duper proud of what you did, man. And you know, it's related to this this conversa conversation about AI, which is man, when I when I look at the and you did the environment art, you

did the level design, you did the weapons. Um I think that's that's the big three, right?
Yeah.
I mean, that's basically a 3D game. I mean, what people see, right? Um there's a whole layer of code that And that was my job was the code, the systems, the architecture. And by the way, it's really really bad.
It works. [laughter] That's what matters, right?
No, this is my strategy all along was I'm going to make it so bad the AI can't decompile [laughter] the game.
They're like, "I don't even know where to start here, buddy." Can't fix this for you.
[laughter]
Start over.
That's right. So, that was my job. Your job was to create this cohesive be like it's so I am I am fascinated by what you were able to achieve with Twisted Tower because and we've talked about this, so we'll probably rehash a little bit here, but I want to know I want to know the trick to How do you make a game seemingly look double A and triple A, but when you like

get close to it, it's it's pretty like low fidelity. Am I wrong that that is true? I I feel like that's true for Twisted Tower. Like if you if you go and you look at like a scene, it's like pretty straightforward. It's a it's like a ProBuilder mesh with some pillars and some couches and some fireplace and some lighting. Am I correct in saying that it's almost tricking people into thinking it looks double A and triple A?
Yeah, I I I think um people it's hard to it's hard to define what the art style for this game is. A lot of people will of course they'll go to the inspirations of like BioShock. They'll go to uh the fact that it kind of looks like a an Xbox 360 PS3 era game, uh but of course, you know, it has modern uh modern techniques and applications to what is currently being made in some double A or even triple A art that um might not necessarily be in

around at the time. So, it's kind of a mishmash of a lot of things. I I think one of the interesting things about developing a a visual style is just it's just not it's not necessarily something that you figure out immediately, right? You develop through experimentation, iteration, and gradually you have like um you establish this collection of artistic decisions that kind of just work well together, you know? Um so I think when people try to describe the art style of of of Twisted Tower, they might be responding to the shape language. You know, like uh uh How can I explain that?
I'm so glad you said that word. That is such a Well, that phrase, shape language.
Yes.
And I but I know exactly what you mean.
Yeah.
The chunkiness.
Yeah, exactly. Uh that's exactly it. Yeah, it's just um

It's just like it emphasizes like big readable forms in a way as well. We exaggerate proportions here. We give like architectural elements and props a sense of like weight to them.
Yeah, everything looks like it's like a 500 lb, you know, just big chunky elevator doors and even the couches are just fat, you know?
Yeah.
And I I don't know, is that because I said, "Hey, I want this to look like BioShock?" Or is that because and that's how you interpreted it? Or is it a style that you've been establishing before you started Twisted Tower?
Well, because we started with Fodder.
Yeah.
And that's the the funny thing about Twisted Tower is that you can at least I think from our point of view
Yeah.
cuz we were so intimately connected to it. Uh there's a lot of things a lot of things that reminisce from a lot of the DNA of Fodder is still there to an extent in a lot of a lot of things in Twisted Tower. Uh Happy Hotel,

whatever the version of this game.
So many names.
So many names. These things are still there, you know? Uh which I you know, at first I I didn't know if that's just the way it is. I I can imagine a lot of games that come out out there might have a lot of pieces and bits of things and ideas that just never came to fruition or just kind of were left in the middle, you know, and kind of became something else.
I think unfortunately a lot of team leaders and project leaders they become project leaders because of their [ __ ] ADHD nature. And it's I'll just speak for me, you know, it's like I always end up whenever I I I I end up leading a project for some reason. And then my [ __ ] ADHD nature comes through and it's like hey, do this, do this, let's try this, let's try this, let's try this, let's try this. And it probably it I know for certain it exhausted you. But at bare minimum, it did hopefully, I think, slowly create this style that

solidified um from you, right? Uh maybe I'm wrong there, but that's what it seemed like cuz dude, I played build of Happy Hotel.
No, right?
It didn't feel great and it did and on my part from the feel side, but it didn't look great either, honestly.
No, of course, yeah.
So, we learned a lot through the spazzy changing of the game constantly, I think. So.
Yeah. Uh but just to answer your question um about if it was like part of I think yes, there was your direction on like making sure things looked uh well, first of all, because how much can we afford in terms of like adding a bunch of asses and a a bunch of like uh cuz a lot of the stuff that is in the game was handmade, which that's another another topic altogether that we can touch.
we will, but I would say the number was I think we agreed on this last time we talked. 75 to 80%

of the assets are handmade. Is this correct?
Yeah, it's hard to put an an exact exact the proportion, but I think yeah, I think it's about that.
It's got to be. It's got to be. So, yeah.
Around that and even the ones that uh that were not uh that were pur- purchased from like asset store, most of them had some kind of touch to them. Like they they they went through some process of like uh making sure they they still feel cohesive enough to to be part of that world, right?
Yeah, an asterisk here, no AI. No AI or
Yeah, no. It wasn't even like
Around?
feelable that [laughter] much, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Not not to the extent that it is today, right? So, yeah. So, I think like we had to kind of uh think of ourselves almost like a making an indie movie as well, right? You have to You have these set pieces, you have to work a lot with silhouettes, you had to uh use lighting in our favor a lot and make this world seem bigger and have more depth than it actually had. Uh And I think the thing about BioShock

maybe that evokes a lot is that certainly is the kind of game that has a huge almost like theatrical quality to everything, right? To the architecture, to the environment design. So, things look exaggerated there. So, they look larger than life, you know? And but they still feel like they belong to a world that is coherent, right? So, I think Twisted Tower like the the art style here uh we developed kind of its own interpretation of those principles, you know? Um I think that's that what it comes down to.
word. It's It is It's very theatrical. It's It's aggressive and flamboyant to a degree. It's just very flowery uh BioShock is and what's crazy is like I I want to know I know you can't talk about other projects you're working on, but I want to know if you've brought that chunky shape language into your other

work that you do. Cuz you you do other projects, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Involved in a lot of stuff these days. Um
Yeah.
Including Twisted Tower.
Yes. [sighs] You're still doing some Twisted Tower stuff, and we'll show some of it here in a minute.
That's right.
Um yeah.
Which I'm very excited for. Um Yeah, I mean I I think um before Twisted Tower, you know, where was I as an artist? I think I was just chasing, you know, what I felt that was where the industry was going. It's just making this very high-fidelity, realistic assets. I was trying to like if I make AAA, if I make things that look really um realistic, I guess, for the lack of better word.
That's what's going to grant me, you know, um my foot in the door. And then boy, I was wrong because there's just so many people doing that. And there's only so much and so far you can take uh in in this direction. Um
Well, how many Glock assets are there right now?
Yeah. AK-47s and

Yeah.
Yeah. It's just
Why would I hire an artist to do a high-fidelity of that when it's on the Unreal Marketplace, you know?
Exactly. Yeah.
So.
And uh so there's a huge difference, right? Between um doing what I do now. And and I feel like um how much that translated over the years of doing Twisted Tower and kind of shaping to my own language and how do I how I approach uh even art styles that might be on a high-fidelity, but I'm still bringing in that flavor that that I kind of developed. And I'm still developing it, right? And as you are as an artist, too, I'm sure, right? You have your your brand, your language. You you know who you are cuz you've done it many times, but you're always trying to kind of shift.
Yes.
How how far can I go here? And like in how how much can I explore this without completely divorcing myself from where I feel like it's my my forte, where my my happy place, right? My my comfort zone. So.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I always find that interesting how it seems like people think it this it's always good to keep

learning and learning and learning and expanding yourself, which is true, but in terms of deliverables, like Felipe the 3D artist provides these kind of assets. Sometimes I do think, especially in the age of AI, it's better to be like really precise and targeted with your brand and your identity and the kind of stuff you make. You know, I wonder about like what does it look like to when you hire Felipe, you get this kind of style.
Mhm.
And I think that chunky art style is definitely present in like Blizzard. So, Blizzard does a Well, I don't know if they do it well anymore, but they used to make that chunky, right? That chunky art style really, really good.
Oh, yeah.
Um and I guess they still do. I just haven't looked at their recent stuff, but
Yeah.
I I love the idea of for And for me, I love the idea of if you if you play a Thomas Brush game, it's going to have this kind of atmosphere and that's what you get and he's not going to deviate from it. And it's kind of annoying because it's like, "Why do you always have to make everything so cloudy and gloomy?" And

it's like, "That's what I like and that's what I do."
You know, and there's something valuable about that in the age of AI where everything is a distillation of thousands of influences. What if the artist who has two influences is the one who gets to stand out and the and the one that is more in demand? And I'm I don't know what to think about that and if you're sort of pursuing that in your career, I don't know.
Yeah, I I I think like um you can feed a into the AI Thomas Brush, you know, give all the style, all the decisions, give twisted tower, pinstripe, never song, and then it's going to spit out something that looks a little bit or very close to to what you've done. But that decision-making factor, that human factor of like uh just how much you're going to go and what other kind of influences you're going to bring into the the fold, that's

the thing that it can't do. So, ultimately
making it into a product, you know, making it into a final product.
Yeah.
That's a whole other conversation that I just don't think AI can do right now. So.
Yeah, and that that the beauty of the and and the the pain of the organic process, right? And uh
[laughter]
and trying different things and seeing what sticks on the board and um that doubt, you know, and cuz all the and I mean like um we've talked a lot about this like uh when we started, I I wasn't a father yet. Uh you had two of your kids already, right? And now you
[clears throat]
you have your third kid. All these things that happen, you know, in the middle of like this journey and how much that changes and shapes your decision-making and just like uh if you travel to this place and how much you've observed absorbed or like or observed, uh the people that you talk to and just the

ideas and all that all this stuff that we just don't know, but it kind of make who they who we are, you know, it's way more than just what the AI can just take from a superficial level, right?
that is a
It's deep.
That was deep. It's deep. That's [laughter] so deep. I mean, it's it's uh you and I we we we riff on all the time. And I think about George Lucas and how what made Star Wars A New Hope so bizarrely interesting was because of that man and his probably bad decision-making. I mean, if you watch the documentary of any of them including the prequels, you're like, "What is your problem?"
Yeah.
Like you you seem like a well it's like a boomer, a standard boomer making a movie and and but and just all these strange bizarre decisions and you know that A New Hope was salvaged they say

in the edit on the editing floor. That's how it was salvaged. And I'm like could it be that the the salvaging uh could it be that it's good that it was a it was a pile of that needed to be salvaged. Maybe maybe it's good What am I trying to say? Maybe it's good that a project is a mess
Mhm.
because when the editor comes in he has this weird palette of colors and ingredients to play with to create that final product. Right? It's what you're saying which is this five-year journey of chaos basically created something that is never going to be like AI could not spit it out.
No.
It's kind of it's just like I've got people who are frustrated with the ending of Twisted Tower which I'm sure you're aware of.
[laughter]
And they don't like one of the things that they consider very gross which by the way it is gross and the whole point of the story is supposed to lead there.
Exactly. Yeah.
[laughter]
It's make It's

You're supposed to feel gross that hopefully you yeah.
you feel gross.
Yeah.
And it is called Twisted Tower. Twisted Tower. Anyway, you know, I'm I'm a little bit um um what's the word? A little hurt feelings about the frustration about it but point being I love this idea of what you said which is everything that Thomas and everything that Felipe was for five years and all the changes and all the growth we had in these kind of formative years at least you know, late 20s to mid-30s it created this strange thing that has kind of a funky feel to it. And that is I'm not going to pretend that Twisted Tower is has much ingenuity in but I think it's a unique experience. I really do. Um And dude, it's like we we've talked about this in the past which is like, man, we could have made that game in a year. And it's like Yeah, but maybe it wouldn't have been as interesting.
Oh, yeah.
You know?
100%. Yeah.

I mean, I just think about like there was there was so much in that game that could have worked, but it could have backfired so badly, you know, and I'm so glad that it ended up being cut out. But that doesn't mean that uh some of these ideas can't be salvaged in the future, you know, because it's still part of that journey, that experience of trying and failing and or we just need to reconfigure that now in a different way just enough or fine-tune it in a way that now it works. So, there's there's just a lot that comes from just being there and doing it and experiencing that and uh and being scared, being fearful about how this is going to land or not. It's it's all about creating an experience that people will remember, you know, and uh and I don't think AI is going to be able to replicate that anytime soon. Um you can do great stuff that looks

good but like or sounds good, but it can't substitute what we're talking about here. Hopefully not.
I I hope not either, man. I wanted to ask you you know, if you if we had to make Twisted Tower 2, I'm not saying we're going to, but if we had to what would you can you tell me what you would do differently, how you would approach it differently? I would love to know because you and I I I I'll say this, you know, I made some god-awful mistakes leading the team that I look back and I'm like, what was I thinking? Um So, I'm curious about you, man. Like, what would what would you do differently for the level design, the environment art, the gun models? How would you approach it differently?
I mean, we talked a lot about getting caught in this creative process, and is it so easy to go there. Uh
you mean?
Uh you just like you're you're building something, you're adding

a lot of details, you're you're trying to make the composition look good, you're trying to push the visual quality, but you're not creating something that it's is just supposed to look pretty, right?
Yeah, you're making a a product, an experience.
yeah. And uh it has to run well. It has to accommodate gameplay, potentially undergo like significant changes during the the process, right? Through through development. So, so I think like looking back,
[sighs]
there's a lot of value in approaching at least what in my my my box here, which is like environment art, weapon, whatever, like visuals, uh approach it more systematically from the beginning, you know, already thinking about uh modularity, optimization, how assets will actually be used before spending too much time polishing them. You know, um

cuz like eventually we had to go back and revisit a lot of the existing things and make changes in how things were structured, how they were optimized. And and that kind of work really teaches you like how important those decisions those early decisions are, right? Uh so, I think like
a lot of stuff, too. A lot of assets, you know?
[snorts]
A lot of assets you would I just threw out, and you would I I think you may have hated me sometimes because
No. No.
[laughter]
Cuz I would just throw stuff out, you know? So many models were just thrown out, dude. And it's cuz we we I had you polishing things that we should not have polished.
Mhm.
Right? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, yeah. I think I think it goes in that basket as well. Things that were unfortunately lost, but again, it's I always joke that we had at least two or three Twisted Towers, you know? Whether they're all going to be equally good, that's a different story. And I think we can both agree that

there's a lot of stuff that wasn't good, but there's a lot of stuff that could be really good, too. That could have made it to the game. Um just knowing and planning things out, I think it's it's it's the best way. Um but there's only so much you that can do for you as well. I think like working on Twisted Tower 2, you would have already a big frame of like where you can build from, right? You have all the pillars already. You have like all the the structure already there. So it would make for maybe hopefully an easier process if you ever want to go that way. Um but then you'd have to think about like, well, I can't just redo what I've done. Now I have to push it further, which to George Lucas like I since you you brought him up, I think that's one of his biggest merits, in my opinion, that he he wasn't really necessarily trying to settle to make the same thing again.
I know. No prequels. I mean, it was obvious he wanted to sell toys. Um
Oh, yeah, [laughter] of course. But even Empire Strikes Back, you know, like the fact that he chose not to direct, he chose to make it a darker thing rather

than
[clears throat]
just make another Death Star, which he eventually did.
Yes.
But even then, he was still playing around with other things and trying to make it a different experience. So So, yeah, there's a lot of a lot of decisions to make there that would be hard and easy, I think.
You know, it's so interesting cuz it's like you okay, in indie developers could they could say, "Okay, I'm going to master understanding a genre, and then I will be able to plan my game around the tropes of that genre.
Mhm.
That's an economical way. It's kind of like building a prefab house, you know, and then you reskin it. I just think that's getting increasingly less viable.
Mhm.
With AI stuff because it's like now anyone can use AI to make a tropy genre game.
Mhm.
Um the alternative is spending a lot of time and resources and money

trying to come up with something and playing in the sandbox to figure out what works and what doesn't. Cuz like I don't know I could speak for me. I didn't I didn't know how to make this game while we were making it. We were 2 and 1/2 years in and I didn't know what we were doing. Um and I think I told you that out loud all the time. I don't know what we're doing. We're figuring it out. And there's something beautiful about that. I don't know if I would do that every time I make a game. But there was something really fun and adventurous There was something about it that was like an adventure. Like you know, let's figure out how to make something that we've never done before. And when you go when you do when you pursue it in a way that you're not following a tutorial you don't have a a framework that you're really following. You just sort of go off of your feeling and your play tester's feelings.
Mhm.
It creates this really organic interesting thing that again is difficult to replicate. Um

Of course, we'll see if this is true. We'll see if AI can replicate something like Twisted Tower, but I just think the prescription for 2027 for studios is to start trying to rein uh not reskin things but instead try and push genres into new areas that AI doesn't even know about.
Yeah.
You know. And that's easier said than done, and that's expensive, you know, it's really, really expensive to do that.
Yeah.
So.
And um just to see how the the panorama shifted so just so much in the last five years since we started working on Twisted Tower. Like um there was just so much going on at the time and then when games take that long to to be made and you're trying to choose what's what's popular or what might land well at a particular time, it this this is just

becoming harder and harder. So I almost think that uh yeah, sure, you have to do some we we have to survive, you know, games have to be um funded, you know, these just need to to work in a certain order for things to to have continuity, but at the same time maybe not worry so much about what's out there and almost try just doing your own thing because you just might happen to to land on something really cool. Uh because and I often say say this, the sad reality about this industry, at least in my experience with it and just seen successes and failures come, is just that it's not about having the best game or you just even like a very good game, an A+ game. Timing, luck, marketing, there's just so much involved. Uh that it's a cruel cruel world, but we chose
The world is cruel, sure, but the industry is particularly cruel. It I

mean, dude, this is gambling. It's gambling.
It is.
I I And you know, Twisted Tower is doing great. Um I'm I I'm like looking at the revenue, I'm happy with the revenue, I'm happy with the reviews, I'm like, yes, this did more than I was expecting. Thank God.
Yeah.
I look back on the pressure I put on myself, especially towards the last year of development. And I was solo there for a little while, and then I started contracting you out for part-time stuff, but
Yeah.
I put so much pressure on myself to like, this game has to be great. Because, you know, I'm a YouTuber, and I give advice, and blah blah blah. And I don't want my credibility to be hurt, and all this pressure. And I'm like, is it fair? I mean, seriously, this is a serious question I've been starting to ask myself. Is it fair to expect a game studio, or a game director, or solo developer to be able to hit stick

the landing every time with a game? I think it's much fairer to go, no. Like, every game is going to suffer from whatever the season is in the industry.
Or in the season of that person's life, the the people involved, right? Yeah, I would love to see a game, especially games so tied to authors and things like that, to be seen as chapters, really, of like a overall um journey that this person goes, and you kind of go in with that person together, like uh and um yeah, and I mean, at times, you might play a game that will give you an experience that overall might not be the best, but there are always like some things you can take from that that made it at least memorable, or that you can see that if there was a little bit more time in the kitchen here, it could have been something else. So, it's yeah, it

the audience and the the the we're so jaded now, I think, to a lot of the the failures and you know, a lot of the monetization and all the these other aspects that kind of made this industry look very ugly and always it's it's just a hard time. It's just the easiest time to make a game but it's also the easiest time to fail to fail, you know.
I well that's be that's exactly I think it's not a but it's a and it's like of course because it's easy everyone's making games and the standard the standard for games is so much higher now.
Yeah.
And I think about well I think about John Carpenter. I don't know if you like any of his movies. Um
Definitely yeah.
Yeah, so I'm looking at a big list right here. And we always think John John Carpenter's a he's a genius, right? He's a genius.
But you don't realize that not every film was a success. In fact, most were

failures. Or at least from the score perspective, we've got
[snorts]
obviously, I'm looking at him right now. We've got obviously we've got The Thing which is 85% on Rotten Tomatoes which is insane. That should be 100%. Uh Christine, we've got um let's see another one that everybody knows. Uh Escape from LA. Let's see Escape from LA. There is
[clears throat]
Dude, but that's a 53% on Rotten Tomatoes.
Yeah, it's a classic but it's not
Yeah. Yeah. So this whole idea of like and I I see this I'm I I follow a lot of movie stuff more than games but like you know, this Digger movie is like 50% on Rotten Tomatoes and everyone's talking about it's not going to recoup it's not going to recoup uh its initial investment and of course I guess that's a problem from the business side but it's like are we not grateful that someone is making movies like this that say something that have this have a salty opinion and actually say something and take risks

regardless of how well it does and just do something human for for once uh in the age of AI, you know?
Yeah.
Um, so it's not it's not I just don't think it's fair to, I guess to my original point, it's not fair to to put for Indies and for game developers to put so much pressure on themselves to make something perfect. Um, instead, especially in 2027, I think it's much more valuable to to say something honest instead of trying to say something profitable. Um,
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Oh, yeah.
So,
Yeah, I think it's we need to find a balance between what you just said. Because the way we consume things is is just so different as well. Um, you talk about movies. I think about the
[clears throat]
a real like Ridley Scott. As I'm sure you do, too.
Oh, I do, very much.

And same thing with this guy, he not everything this guy touches is a success. Yes. In fact, one of my favorite movies of all time, Blade Runner, it was panned out so badly when it came out.
Did it really?
Yeah, it was just it was just a very misunderstood movie.
Blade Runner initial reviews, let's take a look. Go go ahead, sorry.
Yeah, it was just kind of I think also the the from what I understand the studio kind of tried to sell it as almost like an action movie rather than like this philosophical, you know, study of like society and like the futurism and yeah, like cyberpunk, right? So, the the it took many took decades, maybe at least a decade, for people to realize like, "Oh, this is what this movie's about." He had to do a director cut. They had like other different cuts and stuff like So, my point is like that kind of worked for that time just because of how people

consumed products, but nowadays everything is just so fast and there's there's just so much. How many people are willing to give if Twisted Tower didn't do well, but he had something there for people to find out later on, how many people would be willing to go back and give it a chance that it deserved at a different time and be like, "Oh, that's what Thomas wanted to say." Right? I don't know if these things can repeat anymore. So, you you almost have you you have to hit a home run with your honesty shot. Uh
[clears throat]
just because you got to stay alive and so it is very much like you said, it is a gamble. Like me, you, like even me who are I'm not making my own game yet, but uh um just working, you know, as as an artist in the industry. It is a People should know it is a risky lifestyle.
Can I ask you about that?
Of course.
Um and and we can cut whatever you need to cut, but like I don't think people listening right now

know that what you're doing is a thing. And I don't even know if you thought it was a thing cuz like the way we worked together it felt like employment, but you were a contractor.
That's right.
You know?
Yeah. Um
you're not a solo developer making your own game. You're also not working at AAA as an employee. You're just working for various studios who need your time.
Yeah.
Um and your skill and your talent. What's that like? Can you are you able to talk about this?
Yeah, certainly. Uh
How did you do it and and what is it like?
Because of like I said, like life and decisions you make and and things like that. I just didn't really start in the game industry right away even though I I was studying for for it for many years and stuff. So, it kind of you gave me the opportunity and then we went from there.
Well, what were you doing? Can you tell us?
I was working like different jobs like customer service, IT businesses and things related to that. Uh I work at a telecommunication company

here in Canada.
Oh, I would have loved to hear your voice.
[clears throat] [laughter]
Probably need
Yeah, if you if you were here, maybe maybe you could have eventually. Uh yeah, I work on, you know, leadership and doing very different office administrative stuff. So, like uh but deep down, this is where I always wanted to be, right? Um But like I said, just the entry is so tough sometimes to to for people to be willing to give that chance. It It's always that It's the eternal paradox, right? Like for you to to get uh in the industry, you need experience, but you're never going to get experience if you don't get into the industry, and it's always a joke, right? So
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's and then I've noticed that's for almost every industry out there these days. It's just so many people.
hard for the arts. And you and I are in the arts, right?
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Film, games, or like writing novels and stuff. It's like It really, I mean, unfortunately, it is about the talent you were born

with. For I just think you were Maybe you disagree with me, but I feel like Felipe was born with taste. You have good visual taste. And that is not something that you can Maybe you can Maybe you can muster it up and and practice it and build it up, but I think I think you have it in your blood. Um Do you agree with that or no?
Well, thank you. Uh That means a lot to hear that. Uh Uh I mean uh Um without like risking sounding a little arrogant, yeah, I I [laughter] think I think I do have some vision about like composition and things that kind of just work together uh well. Uh I've I've been told that not only by you, but by some other people, and um
[snorts]
just the way that I look at things, and I observe nature or environments, you know, I always found it myself to have a knife for these things. Like I I always knew like since I was very young

maybe like since I was maybe six or seven when I started playing with RPG Maker uh cuz I'm in I'm Brazilian so like in Brazil was very popular especially in the early 2000s um
[snorts]
uh that's what what I wanted to do but I never wanted to do coding for example. I just my brain doesn't work that way. You are very gifted in a sense that you can do art and you can do coding um very well and and and uh but it's not for everybody. Like that usually, you know, that's my specialty here, you know, like that's I can learn. I'm not saying that I'm incapable of doing it but I this is where I like to be and and this is where I feel like where my I I fall better into the category that I fall better into.
And you know, if you naturally fall into that spot, it's probably going to my theory is is that's the most profitable spot to land long term.
Yeah.
Because it just comes naturally. So.
I just just had to make that decision at some point like okay, that that's where that's really where I want to spend my my next 10 years of my life studying and

stuff because at some point we're getting older, right? You you got to commit to something. You got to make uh got to make that decision, right?
Yeah and and eventually you and I are just going to be incapable of learning anything new.
Yeah. It's Yeah.
to feel it.
Hopefully hopefully not not too early uh but like yeah, there's only so much that we can go, right? And and I think a lot of it has to do with our own interest as well. Like I I very rarely like to listen to a new kind of music, right? A lot of people say that, right? You just like to listen to
you have kids, man. It's like
[laughter]
Yeah, just don't have the time
Yeah or the emotional energy. I don't want to go listen to a new indie pop like
Yeah.
I used to listen to really moody indie music uh like like Bon Iver and stuff. And I don't listen to it anymore. I listen Dude, I listen to
[laughter]

just enjoy things. So like we are our we're just overloaded constantly by everything and uh we just even playing games I find hard these days too because uh
Yeah.
if you're already spending so much of your cognitive ability cuz game playing games requires you to be paying attention to what you're doing learning things and stuff. So like you just tired. So like you for you to transfer to a different thing and just kind of go back and forth and you're bombarded with all the time. So like it's just very hard to find mental space and allowing yourself to really get into it, but yeah, but anyway, we're we're kind of
I know. I know.
The the the question was about what I do and and and things. Yeah.
you were I in IT and you finally got uh to move into the industry, right?
Yeah, I through through Twisted Tower. So projects come and go. Projects end.

Funding runs out. Development priorities change. So there there's that's for every every project. So um so I of course I moved on to to working in you know, other studios. Uh and uh but like I said, still working with you, but now not a a full-time capacity as a part-time capacity. So yeah, I think like I essentially operate as an independent artist and developer to an extent.
Oh, yeah. And a designer. And for me for me you do game design and level design stuff.
Yes. And I am I am collaborating in that sense as well and in other projects, too. So I think it's like rather than me putting several years of my life into developing one game that I own and and I hope that it will become financially successful. I am essentially compensated for professional work. I contribute to other people's projects, right? And there are advantages to that, of course. I'm not necessarily taking all the financial risks associated with funding

an entire game. I can work on different projects. I can collaborate with different developers. And hopefully establish long-term relationships such as the one that we have. But of course, there are disadvantages too, right? Like being independent doesn't mean having financial independence, right?
It's the opposite. It's all on you, dude. It's all on you. And I know exactly how you feel.
I'm a small business owner, right? And
[clears throat]
so my livelihood depends on contracts, available budgets, whether studios need my services or not, right? So and like I said, projects end, you know? So I think the biggest challenge is maintaining some degree of continuity. Ideally, like I have like a stable primary contract, leaving myself some room to accept additional projects, but it's not always possible, particularly in the indie space, right?
Is it normal to in this world, cuz I know a lot of people listening right

now, dude, what you're doing,
[clears throat]
you may not think this because I know it can be stressful, believe me.
Mhm.
But a lot of people right now are listening and they're going, wait a second, this sounds like a dream. You have you have six game projects you're working on with studios across the world. And and maybe you're working on three, I don't know how many you're working on, but um but let's just pretend it's three to six
Yeah.
projects across the world and you're you're you're getting to work on what your forte is and what you're really gifted at. And it sounds like to me, I know you have NDAs and stuff, but it sounds like to me you're working on stuff that um are games that you might like to play, which is really cool. Like I like uh shooters and stuff like that. So, it sounds like a dream come true to be able to not take on the risk of an indie indie studio while still being able to do the work.
Mhm.
You know what I mean? But like my question to you that I wanted to ask was is it how do you structure these contracts?

And you don't have to answer, but is it like I will give you this many hours or is it I will work on I get paid via milestones or something.
Um I think the business will shift from company to company. I mean like um yeah, I might work with a milestone and I get like maybe um a lump sum or like a half of the uh the contract the agreed amount [clears throat] or I can work hourly. Um there's only so much I can stretch myself as well, which is really the the biggest challenge. Uh and I think that's one of the the difficulties as well of operating like this. It's just that you got to have a lot of mental fortitude and you have to be a very well-organized person uh to be able to pull this off because [clears throat]
Are you?
Uh I like to believe I am, but uh even then there's still times where I'm like, "Oh my god, you know, which world am I in right now? Which planet am I in right now?" Literally. Especially if you work in different engines, different art styles, different softwares, uh

different teams all together, different leaders, other artists that you're collaborating with. But you know, that's I think that's one of the cool parts about this is that um and eventually you learn that those relationships that you build are incredibly important. Right? Like uh like working with you opened doors for me professionally, including opportunities to work for these other studios and I think um that's one of the most overlooked aspects of of this business, I find, you know? I You know what I mean?
Go ahead. Go ahead.
No, I was just going to say, you're not just building 3D art and uh in my case or building environments, you're you're building your reputation uh as someone that developers can trust to help them finish their games, achieve achieve things. So, it is a viable thing uh cuz like I've been doing it professionally, but I wouldn't describe it as easy or particularly predictable way of making a living, you know? It's uh like I said,

you're running a small business, even if that business consists just of yourself, you know? It's uh it's still a risky thing.
Dude, the the paradigm I live in on a daily basis and tell me if this resonates with you. The paradigm I live in is I go to bed thinking, are we going to be okay next month? You know?
Yeah.
Are we Is my family going to be okay? Now, I've had years that were amazing years where I had money coming out of my nose.
Yeah.
And then I had years where all of the money was going to other people, be contractors and stuff.
[clears throat]
Like right now. Um
[laughter]
including you. Uh but I'm happy to I'm happy to do it because I know it's it's helping helping build
off. It'll pay off.
It will.
Yeah.
Right now, I'm in the process of fortifying SKUs. That is my big process right now, including updates for Twisted Tower, which will will show some

of them in just a minute here. Um but you know that feeling where you go to bed and you think are we going to be okay?
Every day. Yeah. It's uh
[gasps]
Yeah, I I I mean, um
[clears throat]
I think it's also like we depend on you guys watching to to survive, you know? And when things are so volatile and uh like for content creators, cuz you yourself you are a content creator as well. So I don't know how much YouTube revenue plays a role into how much you your budget is for for making the games but I'm assuming there's
it's coming clutch every it's coming clutch every like 3 years.
Yeah.
I'm so glad I have YouTube because it's a big fat backup plan when hits the fan.
Exactly.
and it hits the fan in game development. It does. You always go over budget. Your schedule's always shift and change. Funding runs out. Publishers change all

of a sudden because they get bought out or whatever and it's just this mess and I I I I I think what you're doing is is is actually the least risky path for like game development because you're like I have three four clients and at least the goal would be if I was you it would be I have three or four and each one is paying me an even amount so that if one drops away I'm not screwed, you know. And for me for me it's like I can't I can't go to sleep at night knowing that only a publisher is the thing holding back hell.
Mhm.
And if that publisher goes away I'm screwed, right? So I've always been the person who has three or four um like
revenue
capital revenue or capital so that I know that if one drops away I can at least hold this one up and and

and that's how I was able to finish Twisted Tower which was even though and you I mean dude elephant in the room when we had budget cuts for Twisted Tower you had to be fired.
Yeah.
And I I told you this I'll tell everybody this I cried like a baby for 30 minutes after that call, dude. And um and I was like what the hell are we going to do? We had we had 70% of that project left to to do. I'm sorry, we were 70% through. I was like, I guess I'm just going to have to scramble
Mhm.
for the next couple years to figure out where the money's going to come from to finish this stupid project.
Yeah.
And so it is scary. It's always scary. Um but it's amazing and I you and I have talked about this. It's amazing what a couple months can bring of good fortune where you wait patiently, your bank account is dropping, your savings is dropping. Maybe you're racking up credit card debt and your wife is saying, are we okay? What's going on? And you just have to

grin and bear it and say, I got 30 days to figure this out. I got 60 days. I got 90 days to figure this out.
Yeah.
Um it's scary, dude. It's scary. You're not more free, I'll tell you that. People probably looking at me and you, they're like, oh man, I want to do what they they're doing.
It's It's the other way around, completely, yeah. We don't have time for anything.
[laughter]
We don't. Yeah.
Yeah. So, I mean, do you do you regret it?
Uh Yeah, I mean
[sighs and gasps] [laughter]
there's times
I know, right?
there's times [clears throat] that I wish that I had pursued a more traditional uh career. Uh But if you don't risk, you don't make it, you know? Um it just comes down to I think the question that I always ask myself in terms of regret is that am I cut for this kind of living, you know? Do I want to be this kind of guy who um because things are so volatile, there's so much so many ups and downs, and you're depending on other people,

the audience, the the customers, but also the people that are willing to hire, that they're willing to put their financial risk into making another project.
Yeah.
Uh it's um this is something that I've I'm still learning as well, which is that of course build savings, you know, have have a plan B if things uh go wrong, have the confidence of your family, you know, make sure that you're very transparent about everything. Otherwise, you need you need to have a good structure here at home, you know? To be able to do this. Yeah.
It's true, and I I've talked about it before how in in my family the the volatility of making indie games has been a real challenge, a real challenge in marriage, in fatherhood, in friendships. And what like for example, it's as simple as I'm hanging out with two friends. Maybe we're working out or something and we're working out together, and I'm like

not there.
Mhm.
You know, because I'm thinking what are we going to do next month? How are we going to do in the next year? What's the next project? How's this project going to land? And I'm sure you know what that's like where it's like you're talking to family and it's like, "Hello, Felipe, are you here? Are you okay? Is everything all right?" And you're still working, you know?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or you just simply on a positive side, but also that has that negative impact on the family is just you're so excited about what you're doing and the ideas are just like cooking your head and [laughter] like, "I can take this and that and then I need to write this down. I need just 5 more minutes here, you know, I can
[laughter]
and you have to police yourself, you know, because uh
[laughter]
I find that that's probably the hardest thing is just that you you get excited and and um but you need to have that clear separation, uh especially when you work from home, which is our case.
Yes. Oh, yeah, definitely. You're you're like 5 ft away from your your daughter or or your my son or whatever and

Yeah.
I once I exit that door of the office, they'll jump on you, you know, and they want to play and wrestle and and then your wife is like, "Hey, what about this, this, this, and this?"
[laughter]
And we need to go to this, this, and this.
Yeah.
And in my head, I'm like thinking about dialogue entries for Mr. Twister and the big reveal at the end. And it's like or like the story or whatever. And this is why, and I said this on Twitter, so it's not like some I'm being too transparent here. This is why during the end of development for Twisted Tower, I would go downstairs and immediately pour a drink. And I feel bad about it. And I know that I shouldn't have cuz it's just not a healthy habit. But I would I would make a cocktail every evening at 5:30 for the last year so that I could self-medicate and get into the right headspace because

my brain wasn't shutting off. You know?
Yeah.
Um the excitement, yes.
Mhm.
The stress. [clears throat] Uh what what trying to solve a problem. Like what why on earth is this bug happening? I don't know if it's a healthy career. I mean
[laughter]
Uh Uh it's um I mean, I'm going to exaggerate here a little bit, but like you're trying to be a a rock star, you know? You know? And uh that takes a toll on on everybody, you know? Your personal life and things like that. I think we're just very lucky to have the partners that we have and the family that we have.
Yeah.
Uh that they're they're understanding and supportive enough. And of course, they see the the fruits, the the the success. And that that helps a lot.
Yeah, it does. It does.
So it's um it's all it's it's tough to navigate that. And I and I it's not for everybody. This thing is not for everybody, you know? I think everybody's capable of doing it if that's what they they want to do. And if they have the passion and and but

ultimately, it's not I I always say this. Um it's not a knowledge coming from me. I've I've other people saying it, but I like to to remember and uh remind people if you go to a a game design school, which I've done twice, uh you get maybe an average of like 20, 30 people in your class. Not everybody's going to make it to the end, but let's say most of them do. So, every year or every Yeah, every 6 months if it's a uh university, you're going to have a bunch of classes graduating. So, you have thousands of or hundreds of thousands of people across the world graduating game design, 3D art, programming, whatever it is. There's not enough jobs out there for everybody. There's just simply not. And then either you're just going to make something yourself and gamble everything on that, or you're just going to find something else to do. So, it's um that's the harsh reality.
It is a harsh reality, and this is why it really does come down to are you willing

to suffer to experience the joy of creating. It's this It's kind of like Newton's fifth law or something, or fourth How many laws does he have? Newton's
[laughter]
I said Newton's laws, how many are there? I'm looking it up, so I don't sound like an idiot. There's uh three. Okay, so his fourth law is If you want to make indie games and have If you want to If you want to be If you want to have creative freedom, you have to wear shackles elsewhere. Mhm. It's like the It's just a rule. Uh Thomas gets to be creatively free from 9:00 to 5:00.
[clears throat]
Felipe gets to be creative and come up with these crazy worlds and design 3D worlds. But at night, when he's trying to go to sleep, the shackles are put on, and you got to be thinking, "Are we going to be okay? What do I need to be stressed about? What do I need to do for my family?" All of a sudden, the weight is there.

It's so funny for me, cuz when I start working, the weight's gone.
Mhm.
And the moment you and I are going to end this call, I'm going to go downstairs and it's going to be the subtle pressure starting to come down.
[laughter]
Yeah, [clears throat] but that's because we care. You know?
Right.
We care about the people that we love and we know the responsibility that we have. And I I think that's a if you're getting to this business and you don't have that, I question your your sanity and I
[laughter]
Well, I mean there's there's a lot of Indies who um Sorry, I have a [clears throat] frog in my throat. I swear I'm not crying. Um I swear.
I don't know about that.
There's a lot of people who they're I'm looking I'm looking at Discord right now of all these people who have come on my podcast who they're crushing it. You know, they've got
[clears throat]
millions in the bank. And I don't know if their stress is any less.

Mhm.
It It It They It might be, but I know for me that I've had years where I had $100,000 come in and I'm like, "What do I do with it?" And the stress is still there. I find I find myself just stressed about something else. Um it's almost like the human brain, if it's stressy, if it has a stressy default nature, it will be stressed.
Mhm.
Um I hope that's not true for you. I hope that if you make buku's of money next year, that you will feel relief and peace. And but I have my doubts just because that's how human beings are. You know?
Uh I don't think um ambition is the right word, but like I think we're always striving for the next thing. We're always hungry, right? For more, right? And as long as we have that and um and we understand the world is full of ups and downs. Yeah, this stress will

still be there. It's just, um, how much you let that dictate. I mean, if stress if stress freezes you and and puts you in a state that you just can't go on, that's where I feel like, "Okay, now this is something else."
Yeah.
if if stress helps feeds into your your drive and then it's pushing you to do your best work and then, uh, it's what's going to be there with you at the finish line, that can also be used as a tool. It's just that, um, it's a dangerous one because it's so easy to get out of control.
I know. Let's see what stress has created for you. Let's open up, um,
[laughter]
That's right.
Let's open up Twisted Tower. You want to do that? Open it up and and take a look at this new map you're working on?
Yeah.
Um, so this map we can't say what it's for, so I'll say that. We can't say Some people will figure it out, but we can't say what it's for, but we can say that it's for a new big update coming for Twisted Tower. And so, I just wanted you to

if you want to
Mhm.
just talk about it. Uh, can we Felipe, is it possible to look at, um, the space level?
Yeah, sure.
I think that one's Well, which one is I'm so sorry. Which one are you the most proud of?
Uh,
[laughter]
it's like you're which which child are you are you the most proud of? Like,
[laughter]
I think they all have their own
Yeah.
their own things. But yeah, sure. I think the space level is a good one because it's it's still unfinished. Um, so there is there's a degree of like, uh, how much like it will be here at the end.
[gasps]
Yeah, this is, uh, one of the levels that I have been
so good, dude.
working Yeah, I know. Thank you.
really looked at it, to be honest with you. Um, I just been trusting you. What was the initial Like, can we can we talk about like really quick uh what was the process to get to here? What was the impetus of this, the very beginning, and then all the way to where we are now? How how did how did this

happen?
Well, without going to too many specifics about what this is for, well, we're creating a different experience here. So, we had to kind of go back to the drawing board and think about how these maps should be structured for this new experience. So, it did it did evolve. First of all, we need to gray box the hell out of this thing here, make prototypes of this this level so we can test and cuz that's that's essentially if you want to be smart budget-wise and time-wise, which is my my case and your case,
Yeah.
prototyping and just making sure you test things out is is the smartest way to go. So, this did not look like this at first. It actually looked pretty bad. It had like a lot of
white
boxes, no textures, none of these extra fluff here,
Yeah.
and decorative set dressing stuff. And then we figured out, well, is this fun? Is this working? What are the

elements here that are resonating with the testers well? Is it the verticality? Is it like just the traversal between one side and the other?
Yep.
And not worry too much about the theme and like how this will look at the end. But of course, that plays a part as well. And and I think to my own credit, this is where doing things for a long time kind of help you
Yeah.
foreshadow how things will will be once like set dressing starts happening.
Yeah.
So, I kind of have to build things with the mindset of like, well, later on I'm going to do this and this with the art, but it has to service first the gameplay here like and what people are saying about the level.
You know, I have a question for you.
Yeah, sure.
This this it would be disingenuous it would be disingenuous of us to claim that the gray box dictated all of this.
Mhm.
You you do this thing where you gray box and then when you start set dressing, you start having dreams about what it

should
Yeah, that's right.
You told me that a lot of this was came from a dream, right?
[clears throat]
This centerpiece here.
Yeah.
This centerpiece happened during set dressing, am I correct?
Yes. In this
this part wasn't gray boxed.
In this particular case, this is a very good example of like how organic and how dynamic that process can be. Yes, that's true. The the original version of this had platforms. It had this kind of like a pit here and it just had this idea of like two sides, two bases and you have to kind of traverse in some way, but the the whole composition of this like the structural or like the the the the vibes of this place, they came from a dream. Yeah. It's not [laughter] always like that. Sometimes you can't rely on being lucky about dreaming about something, but uh yeah, I mean in in my dream it did look cooler than this.
[laughter]
But just because there's no there's no

budget and time involved.
There's no budget. There is a budget. I am paying you.
Uh no, there's no budget in the dream state, yeah.
Yes, I see. I got you.
everything is is okay there and everything goes. And it doesn't need to make sense. So yeah, so actually it's a good point. When you when you have a vision about something and you kind of want to translate it to that, there's a lot of moving pieces that you have to take into account. Not only how visually that's going to present itself and how important having this motif here like this this point of interest and this focal point here, but how well is that going to work with everything else. I mean we still don't know if it will work 100%. We're still testing this. It might look a little bit different, but I think we're fairly close to what the the end end product will be in this case here.
Can you explain what is a
[clears throat]
a ProBuilder mesh versus what are modular assets? And how did you know these modular assets would work? Are they all unique or is it actually just a few prefabs?

Yeah, so a ProBuilder mesh is basically a Lego piece that you're going to have and it can There's only it's fairly competent in terms of like how far you can take this inside the Unity editor versus modeling an environment in Blender. We used this process for pretty much everything in Twisted Tower which was just building levels from using this this technique here. And once we have like, "Hey, well, we have a grid. We know the size of a room. How we can build our environments where it interacts with the the gameplay and the physics like the measurements that we have for the for the character, how much they can jump." So for example, the player can actually jump through this to this height here and I can show you guys.
Yeah, yeah.
No, they can't, but with a double jump they can.
Yes.
So you got to think of these things in account when you're building things. So the whole

It's not always that you need to follow the grid on everything, but for the most part in this kind of game that we're making here which is a is a platforming game as well to an extent. That's super important. So everything kind of looked like this in the beginning. Like everything was using ProBuilder except for maybe some platforming and then
Can you show me the the ProBuilder mesh that we currently have? Like can we just isolate it?
Yeah, sure.
This may be
This is this is one example. So like this is not set dressed yet, but like uh uh It has like the this door here. So we need to obviously carve a hole into it, too. So it starts super simple like that, you know, it's it's very square, very blocky. Later on I'm going to throw in some rounded shapes and then maybe I'll I'll push in some of these walls a little bit further back. Uh but to to deliver on the experience of like, okay, we need to make sure there's two rooms. Uh they could be accessed uh through these uh the both these sides here. There's some kind of
[snorts]
uh gameplay moment that will happen here and eventually you have to be able to go

to the bottom of this platform here and how you're going to send So like yeah, ProBuilder it really is just like uh the most basic form that you can have for a level. And then later on we're going to throw in all the the fun bits which are the the pillars and assets and like um all these other shenanigans, yeah.
The The fun bits are mar- modular assets that are generally Well, in Blender they are fit to an exact size. Am I correct there? Like Yeah.
Yeah, like modular assets like uh they have been planned out based on the the grid structure that I showed here. So like if something is 8 by 8 m, uh I need to make sure that that uh that's going to fit into an 8 by 8 space or 16 by 16 or whatever it is that we end up using because uh that's really what's going to make building levels possible and economical uh in many ways. Sometimes like a a wall like this one is dressed with this kind of metal plate to actually here but then in a hotel uh

off in a hotel level it will be the exact same thing which is just a different texture. And then with that I can add different pillars that are modular as well and suddenly now you're not in the space level, you are in the hotel level or you are in the mermaid palace level but they still obey the same principles of spacing and modularity.
A lot of people who haven't made 3D games who might be listening now, they might think that what we're discussing is obvious.
Mhm.
You start with the ProBuilder mesh and then you dress on top of it, right?
Yeah.
But of course you and I didn't even think that way when we first started with Father. Do you remember we made that big you made that you did you made this big map for father and it was like a castle interior. Every single wall piece was modular.
Mhm. Yes.
And there was like it was like Lego blocks stacking them and it killed the game's frame rate because you're looking at all these vertices, right?
That's right.
And so you and I you you really led the charge here had

to figure out wait hold on. What actually needs to be a modular piece and what can just be a super simple ProBuilder mesh, right?
Mhm.
Um and so what we're looking at here is I would say am I correct in saying this it's like in this shot alone is like we got 1 2 3 4 5 6 six or seven different prefabs used over and over and over again and then a ProBuilder mesh.
Yep. Uh and like for example all these platforms were measured to fit within the grid size that we had before. So even like if you use them a little bit more freely uh this you still have some level of like consistency and direction from having planned out that grid and those modular pieces. And and to to be completely fair the approach of the Lego pieces that we've done before is not that it's wrong. You can actually still do that. Uh it's just that for Unity and like what depending on the engine

How well optimization is
how performant you want it to be uh some methods are more preferable than others but uh yeah in this case you want to step
[cough]
It's also really useful to use some kind of ProBuilder tool something like that
Yeah.
uh in the blockout phase and in the testing phase so that you can quickly make changes to the level. You can imagine and you and I went through this where if we have a thousand wall pieces that we downloaded from an asset pack, God forbid, I know a lot of people do this. In fact, there's a Victorian asset pack that I've used in the past where you snap the wall pieces together. The problem with this is you've snapped a thousand wall pieces together. When you want to make a change to the level design, which you inevitably will,
Mhm.
it is a pain in the ass.
Yeah.
Right?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, because you you're essentially almost set dressing the level.
You are set dressing when really you need to do a blockout, right?
Yeah. We we've learned our lesson the

the hard way, for sure.
And and that I will take full responsibility for that, dude, because No, I will. No, you don't. You have to I will because the reason I say that is because you taught me about this ProBuilder method where it's a really interesting method um where you start with your 4x4 cube, you invert the normals, and then you start pushing. Is that correct? Kind of like Minecraft.
Yeah.
of like digging digging a hole.
Pretty much, yeah.
And you start to push and build the square, and then you build out the large lobbies, and then you create halls. It all starts with that cube, right? And [clears throat] you just push push push push push, or extrude extrude extrude extrude. It's a great method. It's a great method and really really uh economical. Can we shift gears and talk about unless you want to talk about something else? Um lighting and how you've how you approach lighting now versus how you might have have approached it in the past.
That is something that I've learned a lot from you as well, especially because we we were making a horror game.

Uh
Yeah.
Well, maybe not primarily horror, but it has horror elements to it, right?
It's got horror vibes, yeah.
Horror vibes, yeah. And then you have your experience as a as an indie um movie maker, and a lot of the things you make are horror. Uh so you you have to also think about again performance and optimization, right? Uh so it's almost like you have to make um you just have to work with what you have and just try to make the best out of that. So, being limited I'm just going to show this level here cuz I think it's
Yes, please.
particularly helpful to see it in the in the in that sense. There is a lot of lights here, but not all of them are doing the same work as something like this. Obviously, that's that creates a focal point. It creates a a radius that will kind of illuminate just enough the room and it creates some contrast as well. So, you have like darker corners and you have like a a very a well-lit area here. So, you have to kind of create that mood through utilizing not so many lights,

but trying to Let me see, this one here is also a good example of that.
primal load when you get a chance. I'd love to walk around this environment.
Yeah.
Uh
[clears throat]
This is these are two things that are that you and I have learned, which is number one I I found for me when I do lighting cuz I did a lot of the sort of final polishing of lighting in in the campaign.
Yes.
The lighting I found less is more.
Yes.
And especially in a game like this. It's like instead of six or seven lights doing instead you you you let one light do the job of what six would have done.
Yeah.
Right? Um And then also am I correct in assuming you've been strategic with the shadows or do I need to go in and turn those off?
Yeah, no, big time, right? Like for example, something like this that will drive the interest of the player. This being a little bit dynamic because it has a bit of a flickering going around here. Uh

There are some that will be casting shadows, some that that don't. It all depends on like is there going to be bleeding behind this this wall here as well? So, we need this this light to to be casting shadows so it's not bleeding through the other room. Uh yeah, all these things they they play a big part into being economical, but being very efficient with how you apply lighting, right? These lights can't be competing too much. I mean, they are in in some way, but like they are servicing like I'm going to eliminate just this area or just this area. This one here kind of absorbs a little bit of both. So, there's like a kind of mid-tone to this. This one is another focal point. So, there there are a lot of ways that you can approach this, especially in the moody game. Uh this area here is a little bit more evenly lit compared to the other one just because it's a hub as well. It's a smaller room, so you kind of need a little bit more visibility. It's I mean, we've been doing this for 5 years with you, right? So, like building something like this doesn't take as long as it used to when I started cuz you

just know where to go. But to develop that, to to find that that's where you want it to be, yeah, it does take some time. It was a lot of playing around.
Can you turn off the lights and let's look at it in its flat state?
Yeah.
And maybe if you turn off the post-processing as well right there. Yeah.
Yeah.
And let's let's see how this Yeah, it's just amazing how especially for Indies, and I know if AAA does it, too, but like lighting is the king of creating a scene that is not just a visual jumble. Right?
Yeah.
I love what you said about creating focal points with lighting. And I love creating games that have a sort of fairy tale fantasy vibe like this does because you can get away with I'm going to make this corner purple. Why not, you know?
Yeah.
I'm going to make this corner pink because it's it's a way for us to use the same assets over and over and over again. But all of a sudden it looks completely different because it's purple, right?

Yeah. Uh yeah, I mean, the lack of like justification, practical justification versus like how much you can get away with just playing around and just people not even noticing what you're doing.
Yep.
Um I think we had a discussion about this that I found really entertaining, which was uh we had to make a decision about are we going to have floating platforms in this game or not? Right?
Yep.
Uh because that sense of practicality, how much is that going to actually shackle us to be able to
Yes.
to make things make sense. But also we are making a fantasy game, too. Uh so that also that same concept and idea applies to lighting, as well, right? The
Yes.
How much of it is practical, how much of it is just evoking a feeling, and how much our players going to actually notice that or ask for that justification? And I think we struck a good balance between that.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I think that we've had this you and I had this conversation, I think, two or three years into development, where we had a

debate of some kind, and it there's no right or wrong answer. Um but my opinion, as the like art director and project lead, was I prefer cinematic lighting all day long.
Mhm.
I want it I didn't care about practicality at all. It wasn't interesting to me. I cared, how do we make this scene look or how do we make it feel a certain way? And if that means, like what I always do, my approach to lighting has always been I start with one light and let that light create this mood, and I don't care if it's motivated by an actual source. I don't care.
Right.
I just need it to look right, and then we'll figure out how to set dress it later to make it look like it's coming from a light source.
Yeah.
Right? Um for this room in particular, we've got that one big light that is doing most of the work. If we turn that off, is there a way to turn off that light?
Yep.
Yeah. It does so much work, and it creates a

vignette.
Yeah.
It's like a cinematic moment, you know? Um and it's very strategic. It's not like what we used to [clears throat] do is we used to just place lamps and stuff throughout the scene and the whole thing is like this is why um my wife she she she likes um interior design and and she she says she she never ever turns on the ceiling lights ever.
Mhm.
Um she doesn't just flip the switch and then all the lights are on in the house. It's like very specific and precise little moments
Yeah.
of light that pop in and then the natural light does a ton of work for you.
Mhm.
And I think the same is true with a game. It's don't just throw lights everywhere.
Mhm.
Um be very very think like a director.
Yeah, be very intentional and I think the one of the biggest challenges as well and maybe you felt this translating your skills from 2D which is where you typically were before Twisted Tower and 3D is that now you have to if you want the things to look cinematic uh but you are in a 3D world you have to

find a way to make that look right in any angle, right? And that's really challenging.
I know.
So like if I obviously if I'm coming from this this room here I get like bombarded by this shot. I mean like yeah, it looks amazing. Does it look the same when you go on this side? Well, not 100% but you still get the value of what this was created here because you're still respecting how much this light is going to influence how everything is lit, right? Uh so that it is challenging, yeah. This composition shot.
we when we when we first working on this game there was a lot of areas that were just dark.
Mhm.
And and it that's one example of when you bring the camera into an area that is completely dark.
Yeah.
All the sudden it's really really boring. So what we've really got here is we've got lights that are kind of touching each other. Like that the spheres of their radius are slow like bleeding into each other so that [clears throat] you're always getting these moments of darkness. But overall if you look at it on average

you could pretty much see everything. But, it still looks horror, you know? [clears throat] So, that's a hard balance to strike. It's not easy.
Yeah, and I mean, there are always cheap tricks that you can always do. Like even like putting a a not justified not motivated light just below this face and
That's great.
classic horror trope, but it's just it just instantly creates like a focal point, a mood. It just sets the tone for the whole thing.
the hell is that light even coming from, you know?
exactly. This case, who cares? Yeah. [laughter] And then but if everything is like that, it's kind of odd. So, sometimes you sprinkle here and there some practical lights just to give it the like a sense. And if your if your eyes if if you bought this and you bought this this shot here that we have, then everything else just kind of like um your brain just accepts whatever will come next, right?
I'm curious, the other studios you work for, do they care about the light being motivated by something real?

Uh well, um yes and no.
[laughter]
There's moments and moments. Uh but I think in a way whenever you're making a game, even if it's like super realistic, uh you're still like the um you're still like the the you're still creating an illusion of some kind, right? Uh you're still behind the curtains of like what you want players to experience. So, there's always fake things going on around that will will lead it into an illusion. How much you can blend that and make that less noticeable, I think more to your benefit, right?
And in this case, in this game's case, I think the game benefits from impracticality.
Mhm.
I I I think it's like the Wizard of Oz. It nothing needs to make sense. I just need it to feel right, you know? I also love what you've done. Like I don't think people understand the level of psych- psychotic surgical

decision-making both of us made about the color scheme of this single theme.
Yeah.
Uh can we can we take a look, if you don't mind, at the just the textures that are used and the color scheming of the textures, right? So, like for example, I guess yeah absolutely. These are complementary colors.
Mhm. [clears throat]
Right?
Yeah.
Um teal and orange
like working with the hue to have like a secondary or tertiary colors not in the opposite ends, but like complementary colors, right then?
Yes. I guess we'd call that triadic. I think that's triadic, which is we've got Well, it's yellow, blue, and red.
Yeah.
Um And then we're like
these guys here, right? This confetti is is essentially that, yeah.
Yeah. There's a there's a high high level of um well, being particular with color.
Yeah.
And then even your light sources are all complementing each other as well. You've

got your blue or your teal. You've got your yellow, and then you've got your Every once in a while we threw in some purples, and
Yeah.
I think I called that um uh uh it's like um I can't remember what I called it. It's like carnival punk.
Mhm. Yeah.
You know, where it's got that vintage CP look, but then all of a sudden you throw in a neon color randomly.
Yeah.
It's really really interesting to look at.
Yeah, and it's also like and I think this will be particularly helpful for indie developers because you again you are on a budget. There's only so many things you can explore and different This game is already have a lot of different biomes and like different kit sets for modular assets. And then what I'm talking about if people can't follow, like we have a hotel theme, we have a uh, pool room theme, like we have like uh, clown casino. We have so many things that the the space stuff. Um, so you have a lot of biomes and it's hard to to be

unique about these once you you've exhausted like the basic visuals of these themes.
Oh, yeah.
So you have to resort to doing things like that, playing around with colors a little bit and like maybe breaking the rules to an extent. So now you've created this unique moment that is memorable in the in the player's mind and I've learned a lot a lot about that with you as well because it's very easy [clears throat] to just keep keep building what is working here throughout the whole experience, but then when you get to the end, it's hard for you to place yourself in where that experience was. It's almost looking at the at the LUT or like uh, or if you're looking um, maybe there's a name for this, but like uh, if you're looking at a song and you have all the the wavelengths of the song, if everything's kind of like the same decibels, the same wavelength,
Yeah.
where are you in this song? There's no crescendo, there's no build-up to anything, there's no chorus, there's no solo, there's no So it's also trying to build different beats into an existing track.

Uh, so I think that applies very well as an analogy. Here I am.
a that's a really good analogy because what I'm looking at here, I've got I've got a room that has this bigger feeling than the other rooms. It's got a a a a different vibe to it and then we enter another room, it's tighter, it's darker. Um,
Yeah, you could do something like this. Just one color. Boom, right? It's uh, it just feels very different already from this other one here that has a more and dynamic feel to it.
Oh, man. I know.
But it's still closed off, yeah.
Yeah, I dude, when you when [clears throat] we first play tested this level, you hadn't done any of the lighting and it was like everything felt samey and I remember you and I got It's so funny after 5 years of working together, I'm still I'm still calling you saying
[sighs]
getting getting in debates about like we need to be careful. It's feeling really really samey. We got to the players are going to get lost, blah blah blah.

And then you come in and then you prove me wrong with just [laughter] putting in a very unique lighting scheme for each room and then all of a sudden it works,
Yeah.
And again, I'm just using a lot of the same assets. I'm reusing a lot of the same textures, but just that alone and how you you all of course the shape of the rooms is being different as well and the I this thing is not repeating. This giraffe here is not repeating in the other rooms. So there are a couple things you can do as well that are obvious, but the yeah, lighting and just recycling assets, but like putting them in a different kind of composition it is very very useful. No doubt about it.
One final thing and then we'll wrap up here. Um the assets that I'm looking at right now, all of these are handmade in Blender. And I'm going to I I'm going to say yes, they are cuz I I was with you there the whole process, but that is correct, right?
Yes, in this case, yes.
Yeah, but the textures were

I think many of these were handmade by me, so and this isn't me trying to flex or anything. I'm just I'm just I'm trying to let people know like what level [clears throat] of asset usage we we did in this game.
Yeah, we
And I'm I'm looking at this scene here. It's like a lot of these assets were actually handmade including the textures. I think that tile was, the the stairs were.
Or at least like kind of sourced from
No, but even I I I'm trying to say here that that that wood floor, I don't think I sourced that. I think I made that by hand. Let me look at it. No, that one's sourced. I'm I'm wrong, but the but a lot of the the wallpaper is definitely handmade.
one I know it's like textures.com
yeah.
Uh-huh. But
The rug there that texture is handmade.
handmade yeah.
Yes yes. So there's a lot of stuff in here that's just like Photoshop or substance painter and going in and just basically doing it by hand.
paintings that cover up a lot of like

real estate in these these walls right like all handmade right so it's
None of those are AI. There was one live stream I did three years ago where I was playing with AI and I was putting it all over the posters. Just as like placeholders and then there was people who came out like during launch and they were like there's AI in this game look at this look at this stream Thomas brush did [laughter] got you and I'm like I'm like guys look at every single poster you can see that it's clearly uh like Photoshop. It does not look like AI at all. In fact there it couldn't be like that model that one there silhouetted of Twister is a model of Twister you can match it up to his model.
Exactly.
Um yeah. So yeah everything everything in this game with with the the the art the vibes the music is is a a Felipe poured his lifeblood into this game. Um you really did. You you put so much effort into this thing and you still are and I really appreciate you doing that man.
My pleasure.

It's looking great dude.
I'm just glad people like it yeah.
Oh yeah they do. I'm I am I am surprised that we actually made a first person shooter that has very positive on Steam. That's a hard thing to do. It really is.
Yeah.
Um Okay let's wrap up this conversation. I will say thank you so much for coming on. There is a link in the description for whatever you want. What do you want?
Yeah I mean my YouTube channel is pretty much abandoned at this point just because I don't have time.
[laughter]
You have always told me like yeah I know make your make your own YouTube uh and stuff and I I I do want to, but it's just lack of time. I do have I'm on Instagram. I have my ArtStation, so I can send you the links for those, of course. And yeah, I am very busy right now, but if if anybody, you know, is the in need of like an artist um in a part-time condition that can come in and and help out with production or establish an art direction to to any project, please.

I'm here.
I would recommend everybody I don't want to say it cuz I want [clears throat] I want you for myself.
[laughter]
Well, you still got me. I'm still here.
I know. And that's the benefit of being a contractor, you know, you can say, "Hey, I'm going to charge this much, but it's project-based and I'll do it when I can."
Yeah.
Um so yes, I would recommend anybody who's interested in getting some like rock-solid assets and art and design and art direction from Felipe. The link is in the description to contact him. Take a look at his stuff. Granted, I'm not handing him off. We are [laughter] We're still We're still working on stuff, and I've got some fun I need to talk to you about some more plans I have for January and February and some stuff like that, but Awesome, dude. Thanks for coming on. This is awesome.
I'm glad to be here, man. It's 5 years in the making. I'm glad to be able to to talk to you again through here and to your audience. And I just want to thank everybody as well uh because you guys have been nothing but generous and uh not only in the reviews, but like

interactions that I've seen in the in your Discord channel for Twisted Tower or in the comments on uh Axe and on YouTube. Uh thanks for all the love, guys, and uh um it means means the world to me that people appreciate my work cuz I'm not doing these in a vacuum, right? I I want you guys to see it and enjoy it and and feel things and experience things. So and thank you, Thomas, as always for the opportunity to to be a part of this and still be a part of it. And, uh yeah, and for your friendship, as well, cuz uh I think that's the biggest takeaway from this.
Aw. That's sweet. I I agree. I do. I I think, um, I consider you one of my best friends. How could we not? How could we not, you know, after 5 years of of working on something? You're either going to be You have You can only be one of two things. Best friends or enemies.
Yes.
[laughter]
I think I think we're friends. I think

we're very good friends. We are best friends.
You're not my enemy yet. Um, but so far, somehow I avoided that. I think it's cuz I was sending you money, but, uh
I mean, it it it's a big a big part of that, yeah.
[laughter]
No, you're you're very, uh, and you're also very generous, and, uh, you recognize talent when you see it. You recognize effort when you see it, uh, from everybody. I can speak for the whole team, uh, involved with Atmos Games and and Twisted Tower. And, I'm sure people that work with you before in in different projects, uh So, again, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Uh
Thank you.
I'm happy to continue to do business with you. And have fun.
Uh, that's right. And I I I likewise will return the the gratitude. Um the the what we have on Steam right now with the positive reviews, with the revenue that I'm so happy about that I look at the game

and I know that's Filipe. All the art, the every like obviously I art directed the thing and built the thing. But the the visual polish that's Filipe. And so, I'm so grateful for you. None of this would have happened without you. More importantly it's not This is so important for everybody to to hear. Filipe, one of the reasons why um we were able to accomplish what we did and the reason Felipe was able to accomplish what he did was not only because he was good at what he did. That's part of it. It's that every time you and I had a meeting, every time we had a conversation, you always treated me with mutual respect, with a calm demeanor. You take the feedback, you think about it, you come back to me you know, an hour later, "Hey, what about this? I don't know about that." It

was always this really mature, respectful conversation. And I have had people I've worked with in the past, and I myself have been mistakenly um combative or make a knee-jerk reaction in a conversation. Um but you never did that. And so, that is so hard to find in the game industry. Um somebody who is a team player, and you never ever ever I don't think you ever missed a deadline. You didn't. Granted, you would you would make levels way too big and we'd have to scale them.
Yeah, I think
[laughter]
I might have changed the the the plan altogether a couple of times. Yeah, so.
There were there were many times, but I'm so grateful you did this. There were many times where you would you would secretly tear a level down and start it over. And I'd be like, "What the hell is this?" But it was it was always worth it because of the
the best intentions.

I know. You knew what we needed. All right, dude. I'm going to let you go. I know you're so busy. Thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you Thank you so much. My pleasure. You guys have a great time. Take care.
All right. Cheers. Bye. Thanks for watching, and just remember to check out the three-day full-time game dev challenge with me, Thomas Brush, a three-time published indie game developer. If you want to learn how to not only make a game, right? And to come up with great game ideas, but to turn that [music] into a profitable product, most indie game developers can't do that. If you want to learn how to do that and actually make money from your games, this is a three-day challenge. It's a workshop where you're going to talk to me directly. I'm going to get to know you. I'm going to answer your questions personally. And we're going to hang out for three days [music] and workshop your game idea and come up with a battle plan on how to actually make money from that game. Click the link below. There's limited seats and feel free to enroll and I'll see you at the challenge.