two & a half gamers session #28 - Admob bidder uplift update, how do hypercasual games make money?

[Music] welcome everyone this is no [ __ ] gaming podcast 2 and a half Gamers session number 28 we are discussing latest industry news having fun but dropping knowledge but let's not forget this is 4:00 a.m. conference discussion Vibe so let's not take it too seriously we have oh there you go we have Felix braer in the house yaku and myself my lerch no nick no nicknames this today so how are you how are you looking forward to games come already MH oh yeah super excited I mean this is the first games come now in what two years three years I guess free yeah it's been a while it's been a while like that yeah I was uh I was sick in the last couple of days so I was really worried that I I won't make it but I will

don't wor you will be definitely seeing afterwards yeah I will be seeing afterwards yeah that's that's uh 100% but that's fine don't worry don't worry so okay I think it's I think can we can start Y and let's start with a with a very positive news so I think it's uh it's really great to see that our friends from uh theconstructor fund were inspired by our format uh the latest week was a discussion about the news and educational topic about the market research so it's really great to see uh these uh these type of formats for other podcasts as well and it's a sign that we are doing something right thank you very much and this is sincere because we are all friends here and you know I was also invited to TW 194 where we discussed the latest Google policies and this sparked a very discussion a very big discussion about data opinions and you know if a hyper casual is going to die in October or not and all all of these so that's

why we are going to present some data points uh today from the hyper casual games and share our opinions again but this time I mean not this time but it's it's be Beed by the by data everything what we say here or I say everywhere else is actually Beed by uh by data so I'm not pulling it out of my S well sometimes H so yeah today news uh one about Embrace group uh then we're going to talk about very briefly update from eyes side about Google iOS and retargeting campaigns Felix has very quick update about admon admob beer and then the the hyper casual games data points and comments so y what's what's going on with the embracer yeah so everyone's favorite uh constellation of companies that getting

bigger and bigger uh Embrace reported his financials uh for first quarter of 20122 not second quarter uh as usual companies do in these days so keep that in mind uh that was 107% increase in net sales which the company uh reported 68 82 million which is more than 291 98 million it earned with the same period last year uh the interesting part is that the biggest growth uh if I get it right is in Mobile segment of embracer and the PC segment even though it makes more like uh 134 million compared to 208 million had reported only a 2% increase from year over year which is kind of positive signal where everybody was saying that Embrace can can of pull up this organic growth together so I guess what the [ __ ] is organic growth you know everybody tells about

like embracer like we'll synchronize everything and you like pull a bunch of companies together and everything will grow I don't even think they synchronize payroll like it's all separate right yeah some of the companies aren't even gaming companies like Mobile gaming no not even gaming compan like yeah as as as seen here like they acquired the ASO digital which is if I get it right the biggest like board game company so board games isn't that game physical board games sure but physical product okay but nobody say like uh gaming company needs to be mobile gaming company come on man okay anyway uh the other interesting news is that they announced that they acquired IP rights to the Lord of the Rings oo so why is it why is it so important I guess those were pretty pricey that's that's the first thing but no but think about it like Lord of the Rings they're having a TV show coming out on Amazon and if you do that that's

going to generate a lot of Buzz people might be upset but you know there's going to get a lot of viewers and if you come out with a mobile game roughly around the same time yeah that's going to get a lot of downloads and who is going to produce the mobile game for them that's the that's the question so they're they're buy question is if it's even a mobile game keep in mind that they have like half of their studiio console yeah game man like as a swed I'm just proud that you know everything will eventually just belong to embracer and be Swedish so you know well done yeah so if anybody from embracer is is listening to this you can acquire my company as well and there you go but yeah I can't do UA on board games though so I'm not sure yeah let's yeah let's not do that anyway it will be interesting because there I think there's the what's there there's Forex world of the Rings game from China if I get it right then there's like some other games but not that kind of a big super prominent Lord

of the Rings game currently on the mobile market if I get it right well there was like there's a lot of PC games coming in like I know like there's the Golem gameit aure one didn't have is that like the Forex game you're talking about it's not from China oh is it from Bourn Bros okay I think so I think so yeah you can you can continue talking while while I try to so do we have any like if they actually are making a mobile game do we care to speculate which one of their Studios they would like put that heavy weight on their shoulders or do you think they're just multiple yeah multi of course multiple if you buy the right I don't do multiple like especially if this new series from Amazon which is the biggest budget of any series will took off there will be lot of Buzz around it so I guess it's it's a interesting move but yeah pay off it was Game of Thrones sorry sorry Game of Thrones the the Vos one yeah yeah yeah yeah sorry about that okay yeah fingers crossed hope this

Lord of the Rings things will work out at least that that's what I'm hoping for well we'll see we'll see all right so um from my side I mentioned there are some like Google interesting beta programs that are coming uh live or well not live yet but they are expanding to to different um developers because there was the Tas campaign type in the beta for very few few developers now I'm getting wi listed for for some of my uh my Studios that I manage and it's uh it's still a bit too early to say uh it's not too stable but on some account it shows very good potential and uh just to be completely honest the iOS campaigns Tas campaigns before the ATT happened those were the the campaigns you you should have in your uh in your campaign mix that was like the best performing campaign type on Google for OS and even outperforming uh

outperforming Facebook now it's the you know it's different times uh let's see if uh if the Tas on iOS can catch up with other other channels on the on the iOS then there is like an interesting um retargeting campaign and uh I'm going to start running some retargeting campaigns on Google optimized for Revenue because uh that's something uh really interesting which is uh the Tas I mentioned for iOS this is for Value it's UA only but this is also possible on Google and uh retargeting side and Google is one of the best performing channels at the moment that I see and I I want to explore all the options that are available and uh my very good friends from Google are super nice to me with all the help so uh why not to try everything that uh that's available so I will keep you posted guys just a quick question before I kind of jump into my admob bit update what's your favorite Google product then

oo well YouTube right Google search Google search yeah well of course all right well probably Google search well the Google Maps is also pretty handy yeah the reason I'm asking is uh so I promise to share some data on the closed beta on admon bidding and dare I say I'm actually starting to question myself which one of my like which one of the Google products is actually my favorite uh usually I'd say search or Gmail but dare I say now admob bidder is creeping up the top list of my favorite Google products and the results look quite interesting indeed so uh first things first uh the admob bidder is currently being tested as a closed beta on Max I think there's maybe 10 to 15 Publishers worldwide that are testing it currently but they have announced they're going to be expanding the beta soon so if you are an admon manager and a n like me

listening to this this is your calling to basically start being annoying and pushy with your admob am because they are the ones who decide or can push to the influencer who decides who get to be in who gets to be in the next extension so how are you supposed to run the admob bitter test well first things first you need an admob SDK of at least 20.4 or over on Android or or SE 8.7 or over on iOS and here comes the interesting thing while you're running this test you're allowed to run a hybrid setup where you're keeping your three admob calls and you're testing your Google bidding meaning that not only are you getting bidding inventory across your whole waterfall but you're also allowed to keep your three traditional ad mob placements yum yum so this this the like meta build for

now like this is the cookie cutter setup so basically this basically they sent me this three page like how to do the ab tests it takes I'll get into that but this is yeah it's very generous of Google who traditionally in the admon space has been known not to be very generous unless you're on the admod platform so uh currently uh the supported format is banners interstitials and rewarded also native is a available for Early Access and you're also able to test on all GEOS so not just on America uh so you're given quite strict rules of how you're supposed to run the test you're supposed to run the test using the max AB testing tool now and the test is supposed to last for 15 days which means that for the titles you're testing you're unable to run any other AB test for two weeks so what are you supposed to do Phase One Day One You're supposed to set

up an AV test of between 5 to 25% of your user base so if you have a big app you're supposed to go on the lower end here and if you have a smaller app you're supposed to go on the higher end here then you're supposed to leave that for about 3 days do a quick sanity check to make sure that yeah the numbers are matching up in your admob dashboard and kind of if you're seeing that matching up with your mediation dashboard yeah and you're not making the mistake as you described on in the last session yeah like guys your mistakes last time I feel like I feel like there's more mistakes there like yeah I'm not I'm not happy with your guys' mistakes like come on if you're not losing someone 20k that's not a mistake the problem with let's say at least game game design mistakes that you see their impact after like half a year which then are kind of hard to attribute than who did actually did the mistake good diffuse responsibility and there's no pointing fingers all right let me go back to this so after 3 days

you're supposed to ramp it up to at least 25 or 50% if everything looks good then you're supposed to leave it at this level for uh up to 15 days when you're kind of evaluating the performance so now to the most interesting part what results am I seeing so far so I am now nine days into this 15-day test on quite a lot of titles and it's looking quite interesting indeed uh so certainly enough for me to say that the admob bidder is probably my third favorite Google product at the moment so yeah so keep in mind when I'm talking through these results here like it's only for rewarded that I'm testing and the geom miix that I'm testing is 80% America so Android so after a 5% rollout I'm seeing an average here of adarp out increases of between 4 and a half to six percent when I scale this up this goes

down a little bit to 4 and a half% on average but then something magical just happens when you scale these up to 50% AB test and it just shoots through the goddamn Moon and basically when you scale up to 50% it's between 14 to 18% uplift in ad arm at ARP or in other words as you like to say in admon a slam dunk [ __ ] home run so how is this possible how is this even possible well we'll get into that with kind of the concerns that I'm seeing after I'll yeah voice some of that as well so iOS so I was told to split out since I have waterfall set up both for idfa and L users so here's where it's starting to look a bit more Grim but that kind of just reflects the industry as a whole after our good friends at Apple decided to yeah tear all up so idfa only uh so basically on

like the early tests here the 5 to 25% I'm seeing small uplifts of anywhere between four to 6% L only um seeing down lifts of between four and 5% but there's one title here that's an outlier that's down 133% when I switch out on this bidder uh so a blend for some reason you're seeing a really big uplift of 13.6% on a 50% AB test so in short it looks like L traffic is a real struggle still for the admob bidder but overall it's looking like a very very good start couple of point of concerns though um so the average CPM for the bidder is still roughly half of that of admob placements so let's say yeah let's say hypothetically if I'm having a $20

average ecpm on ADM placements bid is coming in around 10 uh so what does that actually mean so if I were to remove this hybrid setup and only use the bidder I'd be losing considerable amount of money uh so uh compared to like it's very like worth saying here that like the other like biders I started testing when it was an early enclosed beta like they weren't this good this early because it's very hard to build the bidder you need to do a lot of optimization so the other bids I was testing it took way longer to get anywhere close to even half of these results so I'm quite optimistic but essentially back to your question M like how this is possible yeah so you're keeping your admob placements they're losing a bit in performance but admob you're only allowed to have three placements so you have exposure in three price points in your waterfall and the bidder then comes and just does the whole waterfall and it buys whatever it likes so probably like usually you have admob but quite High placements so the

bidder is getting more exposure to kind of yeah lower quality yeah Impressions and that's where it's coming in bidding did have one like error happen uh so one of the games I set up uh basically ad performance dropped in near zero and when I set up the bidding in the hybrid and apparently that's quite normal and yeah can happen and it took about a week after that and then it was just recovered to normal levels so overall I'll be done with a test like mid next week and Gamescom it's looking quite promising well done Google let's see if this becomes my favorite Google product next week and then then after you your test is done so what then you're going to implement it into your like business as usual waterfall or how does that going to work so right now I'd still be allowed to keep the actually double check that uh o will they kick out their fixed placements if this works no so right now like even if uh like after this test uh

if the performance is acceptable you're able to start another Yeah so basically yeah you're able to keep the hybrid setup so usually what happens then is um max at some point will decide that yeah this is looking good or bad and then they basically take out the hybrid setup solution they did that on I think it was vungle a couple of months ago where they just suddenly said like yeah that's not allowed to use both anymore okay so then you will go with be there's only or what going look like this is the future like when everything I'm hitting I'll never have to make a mistake with a placement thing again so that's great yeah okay so future is less Felix altoe oh yeah definitely less of me who doesn't want that yeah of course yeah yeah of course but is it is it good across the all titles or is it just like very good on some and then is it based on JRA or is it just like so I'm only wh listed on one account that's primarily genre so I can only speak for that right but like

man it's looking quite good man like but L is still an issue but like anything in admon when you're able to get gains of between 10 to 20% that's like really good just from mediation like if you want to get bigger games you usually have to put new ad placements or change it up like that but yeah quite impressed but L does look like a concern okay what can be done uh on the L side to to make it work a little bit better uh like the Holy Grail question like if I knew that probably making a company doing it instead okay then well in that case you just need to have very high opin rates so you have the idfa lot of idfa traffic oh are you trying to slide in the next topic there yeah maybe maybey very sneaky because we are going to discuss like how do hyper casual games actually make money because there are some discussions about

uh what what we said and not only we said but a lot of other guys from the industry like uh defending the hyper casuals and uh what why we think uh they're not going to be dead and I think uh we don't need to explain the the policies all over again but there was very there is like very big um question mark on on the unexpected interstitials and unexpected could mean basically anything that it's like intrusive in intrusive placement and it's like really if you're playing the game then it can just show into your face out of nowhere which is fine that's like one but it is it like in the middle of the game play or I was playing now one game from say games which is called alal Master build the Empire and I was I just finished the task and then bam intertial just popped into my face is this unexpected or is it

like a a normal placement so I guess nobody knows that was like that was my my biggest point because uh I was talking to some of the Google reps and even they can't explain so is it only mid gameplay or is this like after finishing a task also unexpected so no one knows uh and I think bigger Publishers like Ric or Voodoo or lion stos and even have s games well maybe s games do these type of uh uh intrusive placement but these big companies I mean they can't afford to show ads like this because well they're super big and this is just like very shortterm strategy how to earn a lot of money so I think it's a it's a play for smaller Publishers how to how to catch up with these big guys and uh I think what was now in the top charts which was the snow race game that was

published by some very weird Chinese publisher I've never heard about so I mean yes I guess uh there are still companies that are trying to sneak in a lot of different uh Gray Zone or gray area placement just to make a lot of money in a very short period of time but it's something that's going to happen always and there are going to be exceptions and outliers so so what do you guys think about about this so like the part about catching up like I don't get it at all like who's going to catch up to what like whoever are the big hyper casual companies they just you know they have their Grinders everybody sending prototypes to them they're testing it they pick one out of 100 per month and scale it up I don't see any catching up at all okay uh but you you have these like weird uh small Publishers coming out of nowhere yeah like of course but prototypes that went into the trash sure

you know no this is all about retention right so the good A-list like hyper casual Studios they pretty much have better retention than the other hyper casual Studios that are a lot smaller so this all comes down to profit margin like the smaller Studios who haven't yet made it they live and die by the margins the bigger hyper casuals have thicker margins so they can afford to be less intrusive like the small gaming publishers to be more annoy plac and yeah these are the ones that's going to get punished yeah but but keep in mind again that hyper casual is about frequency of launches and some of these Studios they have like a chain gun and you have like a small revolver and that's that's the exact comparison yeah yeah fair enough fair enough but then uh then there was a uh big discussion about the interstitials that are closable actually after 5 seconds so most of these inters are actually closable after 5 seconds

because that is the sweet spot where you generate the most money and not losing on the retention side because yes you could get uh you could set it up for 10 seconds 15 seconds 30 seconds whatever uh you want but then when you when you're looking at your data uh anything that is above 5 Seconds really influences your retention and uh that's why you go back and see like what kind of uh seconds actually makes sense so everything below 15 which is not poed by Google and it's closable it's going to be fine so you look at your data and then choose whatever works and usually 5sec works because then everything else between 5 Seconds 15 seconds like really influences the user experience and that again comes down to the retention that uh that you mentioned Felix but to Su it all up I think uh this is only Android and then there is a whole iOS platform

which remains untouched with these Google policies obviously but I know ATT blah blah blah all these uh things that happened hyper casuals are going to die because at happened but again they're here everybody's here even on the iOS side running pretty profitable campaigns yes bigger companies of problems but you know who who doesn't have problems but then I remember there there was all die one day yeah of course course there you go the idea keep in mind that the idea of hyper casuals dying is very tempting for everyone else that is not making hyper casual yeah that's that's the whole point of this I said those games are kind of fun I mean yes they're like full of ads but as I said like just turn off the internet and play nobody cares don't don't share that what are you trying to do to my industry here so I'm sorry Felix no no no just you know Play Just ad yeah watch a lot of ads but you are

not you not running any hyper casual games anyway right no there you go but back to the iOS and ATT so I I know theob was wasn't you on the on that presentation with Christian uh uh by game camp or Google where he talked about um how he could um get like 80% of opin rates on the at prompts and pre- prompts windows for for all of their um games uh in their portfolio so I mean it's definitely possible so even with at if you can work on different uh different fronts you can get a lot of idfa so anything you can add Felix 80% sounds really high do you know if that was on hyper casual yeah yeah yeah that was uh Chris C on yeah sles we personally like I've never seen higher than 50 6% often rate but you

know 56% is you know a hell of a lot higher than what people spawned or like you prophesized where it would be around 15% so yeah yeah yeah 80% that's like I wish I can do that yeah maybe I need to speak to Chris again but yeah yeah yeah he shared a lot of slides like how they actually ended up on the 80% what kind of test they did and uh how those tests look like I think uh it's it's it's online on YouTube on the game camp um Channel actually so guys if you want I can put the link into the show notes and uh and yeah so after talking to some of the the guys from the hyper casual space uh what we found out so you have uh 50% ad Revenue coming from rewarded videos and then 50% coming from interstitials but well that's what they claim so where where's like like the banners I still feel wait wait wait who said that that what no no no well I had I had some discussions

with uh on my own as well yeah me too hearing different things let's compare yeah of course of course this is yeah you know this is what I found out but I still uh still then after some uh after some discussions we came down to the fact that like 10% is actually like banners then 50% is inter ties and 40% is reported videos whatever but still then we found out that this this PL this one placement which is intrusive could generate any anywhere from like 5 to 10% from the overall Android mix so how the [ __ ] is this going to destroy the whole shra but this is assuming that all your other placements are okay and you are not squeezing just this one yeah of course because it's still like a a part of the whole admo strategy it's not like the main pillar anyway yeah but just saying that some h casual games just slap the intertial all over

them and that's that's the whole thing so those ones will get probably kicked off yeah of course I mean 100% I see how this like Doomsday Prophecy came to be because it's very easily done right so I spoke to a friend of mine uh who gave me some data so he has to be anonymous so take what you will from that but he has great knowledge of the hyper casual space so yeah I can see like where the cernal truth that sent you down like this like dark Road how hyper casual is going to die like is actually can actually start so he said that majority of hyper casual Revenue actually now comes from Android and that's actually 60 or 70% that's now the new Norm which is quite high right and exactly like you said 50% of this revenue on Android does come from interstitial so if you take this at face value like the situation it looks very dire um but what they're not taking into account is like the like the amount of Gaming or the amount of hyper casual companies are actually utilizing these

placements that are actually going to be out like outlawed by Google when this comes to in fact in on the 30th of September so I spoke to Vincent Fier uh of he's a VP of monetization at tap Nation not an insignificant hyper casual Studio by any means like fairly large and yeah they're probably only behind maybe some Turkish Studio triple. Voodoo yeah he's not worried at all he pretty much reinforced what you said earlier uh that like hyper casual Studios with the bad retention uh that Force use intrusive in justicial placements like these are the ones that are going to be in trouble and they'll be in trouble because they have no other choice because otherwise they wouldn't like break even he said like tap Nation like they inter placements like it's always at end of levels and they don't even have the splash screen full and justicial apps ads at app open and like even Google reps are telling them that their placements are fine so he estimates that they'll lose 0% of AD Revenue come when actually is going to start like yeah policing or policing the

the change on the 30th do we think that after this change maybe there will be another change to tighten the hyper casual even more that's a good question if the stores like you know like if if your main premise is that we want to get this thing out of the store so let's kind of try to boil the Frog a little bit and then a little bit more here's the funny thing so when I spoke to Vincent like Google's also doing this this at a weird time like typical big company corporate like Shenanigans so at the same time they have a closed beta of a Google what did they call it show no no that as well I didn't know about this one even so basically their beta testing their like their own app open ad format that only takes up 70% of the screen instead of 100% of the screen so it's still an app open ad but it takes up less percent so you like is that going to be outlawed and why is that okay because it only takes up 30%

less of the screen so it's just like is that what Google's trying to do just push them to their own new ad format is that what this is all about like it's just everything just seems off like there's no yeah substance it's just what there's so many different yeah so many different data points are he's proving different things just dumb question if you if you have an interstitial in the game and you don't Don't Put It On full screen is it going to be a problem or is it it needs to be uh it needs to be full screen screen it needs to be full screen okay then then that's uh that's [Laughter] solved yeah okay well I still think that this is not going to be such a big problem but again uh it's not that I just pulled this out of my ass it's just uh we're looking at the data from the the hyper casual games I'm going to compare some of the hyper casual game launches before before the at and after the ATT and how how it actually uh

changed and uh because I still see a lot of hyper casual games in top charts even even these days so I guess uh if uh if the game genre is dead I don't think like the the gaming companies would put a lot of money behind those launches yeah let's let's definitely put all of these points into an article and then have a discussion at the end of the year like to see like what exactly happened then I think there's a there's one one other point which is the the Arbitrage and uh on the UA side uh which apparently makes uh hyper casual going to die so let's let's let's take a look at like how the ad Network structure actually looks like on the on the UA on the UA side and which again I think not that which again this isn't like a main pillar for the UA the the whole ad Network part it's just a lot of other um

UA channels uh but yeah different Publishers different UA mix so we can we can take a look at like two two structures for the for the anyad network like Unity iron or who they were applying so at least from my side what I use used to do so I have this like exploration Campaign which is running on all all network uh which is having which has a small budget so you know I don't spend a lot of money on [ __ ] uh publishers that don't don't bring any any Revenue back and then I have allow list campaign with top Publishers with high budgets on different GEOS that actually produce the results and uh are aiming for the RAS and LTV so I exclude low performing Publishers right away but you could put it in the low tier campaign with low bit see how they perform depend what what are the low performing Publishers is like there one genre that usually performs worse no it's just a it's not only one genre it's uh it's

usually a group of different different genres depends on what kind of game you're trying to advertise it's usually different in in a different games so for example for midore game sometimes idle works well uh sometimes doesn't depends on the the audience of that that specific game so I've seen one game works really well in one midor and doesn't in the other one so there you go depends on the LTV actually but yeah then you know if you are excluding this and you do it manually it's fine but bigger companies have automation for this so it's it's done based on some requirements uh that you can just set up or just a set of rules that is actually excluding those um low performing Publishers so as soon as there is a new publisher in the network AKA it can be new hyper casual game which is uh taking all the traffic suddenly from your exploration

campaign uh you can blocklist excluded after a few hundred of installs by automation or you can do it manually and uh I usually do this like types of optimization on weekly basis so I have low budgets on these exploration campaign so I don't spend a lot of money on the new new hyper casual game or not it can it can be any other genra or any other game just now in this context can be just a hyper casual game so it's actually very to see a new hyper casual game in the network that gets too many installs until it's excluded at least from from my my UA uh process but this is more of a problem of UA teams and their optimization processes rather than just the whole genre so it's h it's not that easy to say that it's going to be like uh dead because this placement suddenly gets killed and then uh we don't have any any other new game out out there anymore but

then like this is very this was very simplified structure from the from the UA point of view then we have actually Advanced structure where we have exploration campaign we have testing publisher campaign we have Push campaign with the different CPI bits we have another push campaign where we can just get more information from the the exploration campaign just move these Publishers here and there then we could get like camp campaign where we have CPI based on ad rank so where our camp where our videos are actually ranked [ __ ] I can't even spale that can you explain some of that yeah what do you want to what do we want to know I mean it's Camp what like yeah it can be actually pretty Advanced so you you know you have auction so you have let's say first 10 10 placements or 10 ad ranks so if you are if you have uh if you're bidding $10 let's say in the US you can be on the second position and

then if you beat 15 you can be on the first uh first position but the the CPI on the first position could be just like 11 so you are you know you are not not biding efficiently so you know you can like you have these like discussions with uh with your monetization at Representatives you can have the same discussion on the UA side and see like hey guys so you know what's my address where where where my um campaign is or or video is actually shown on which which rank and then I want to just move one rank above but I don't want to pay like 10 times 10 times more so that's you know that's uh that's one type of the the the campaigns you can run then the the allow list which is more like a wh list campaign with like a top tier um Publishers you can beat a lot higher than on the exploration campaign and then you can have a middle uh middle layer where you just bit let's say 50%

more than the exploration campaign and then just get another type of uh type of audience so it's like there's a huge Advanced structure you can run on the network so it's not like yeah well I just exclude this and here and there and then that's it hyper casuals guy okay thanks for expanation yeah hyper casuals died like 20 times on the podcast but never will well yeah it's uh it's an interesting uh interesting topic to to always discuss but UA was dead already five times here you are and here we are as well I would took took another angle here like why Hy hyper casual even exists like because of the increase ecpm that's the main point why these games paid off because the business model wasn't reliable before so until this thing kind of goes in then I don't think so it will die yeah well I don't think like anyone relied on the ads that much

now you know apparently it's it's very much a very good business model you can earn a lot of money on to beautiful business model on my yeah I would say it will work until we figure out something better than ads like I don't know you know VR ah come on no I'm going to buy a VR headset and stab you to death with it yeah yeah yeah I saw some articles about the VR um headset being very close to the size of the glasses yeah yeah yeah of course yeah just uh before we wrap up I actually just want to like ask like what would you expect to happen on Android let's say we have a red October so let's say Google actually does end up Banning like nine 25% of interstitial inventory in hyper casual like how big of a portion is that of overall Impressions would you estimate in uh in in my UA world yeah in the UA World cuz that what that's what matters at the end right yeah well it could be a very hard very big hit for

the ad um networks even on the on the Facebook audience side for Tik Tok pangle is not live in us still right so it doesn't matter that much Google could be a problem a little bit but there's still like a lot of other placements so even if it's like 20 25% of the of the intersts it's not going to be 25% of the whole inventory so yeah again I don't see this as a big problem but I'm always optimistic I'm always optimistic maybe sometimes too optimistic well we'll see in couple of months all right so anything anyone else wants to add yeah I think that's it I think that's it for today see you we will be at the Marriot bar Tuesday evening Wednesday evening if you guys want to meet up in person yeah high five us we'll also be at the deconstructor of

fun event together we're looking forward to seeing you guys and good good session this is actually good one yeah right no mistakes have to be made made yeah bring your [Music] V until next time bye guys yeah bye [Music]