TWIG #350 Supercell Leaks! Staff Reveal What’s Really Happening

Like [ __ ] you Google. Like what the [ __ ] have you been doing for the last 15 years with your store? You know, it's like this is why is this coming out now? [Music] I'm hosting. Welcome to This Week in Games Boys Only. We're back. We're back and Jen is going crazy. Her brain hurts cuz she has to listen to this nonsense. Anyway, so Jen is back from the hospital on demand. Early results from Neurolink installation seem to be very positive. So wish her all the best and operation went well. So Jen, get better. In this episode, Phil fired off on Supercell last week and this week we return with corrections and some more debates. And this tinning sound, by the way, if you're hearing it, it's Phil's cats that have been biting his stupid cord. And for the past month, I've been called out for for for having my phone on and and all these other things. Anyway, uh

we got Google Play, their new App Store introduction or U Store or U page. So, a lot of deja vu from the Apple announcements. We got Fortnite backtracking and adding inapp purchases to their UGC. We got Xbox price hikes and gas lights. We got eye gaming. We got learning apps. We got Borderlands. And most importantly, we got introductions. So, who do we have on the podcast?
Phil Black Monizations are
Eric Crest, Strategy and Investing
and and yours truly, Nick Katkov, friend of the founders. Anyway,
yeah, we're we're clearly missing Jen here cuz she's like the glue that keeps this thing together. But, uh, nonetheless, I'm going to give this a big caveat. This is going to be the biggest boomer description of a Roblox game, but here goes. My son showed me this Tik Tok of steal a brain rot from Roblox. And basically the game is actually described this way specifically on the platform itself. Buy a brain rot, steal brain rots from other players,

generate money, rebirth, buy slaps, and troll gear to troll other players. This is the game that's been created on this wondrous platform that everyone is celebrating. So basically the entire game is based on the ability to troll and steal from other players. So rich players are buying tools to raid bases and stealing these brain rots that are created randomly. So basically what's really happening is adults are spending real money in order to get the ability to break into children's bases and steal their toys. Right? This is a toy stealing app. Okay? And then they create viral videos of these miseries of these children that are getting their toys stolen. So there are countless Tik Tok videos of kids crying hysterically when their brain rot is stolen in this game. Mothers are consoling them. We'll get it back for you, honey. No, you won't. Right. It's [ __ ] horrific. It is

absolutely horrific. And what I I I don't know what does it say about our society just in general that this is like entertainment. But what kind of evil platform has Bizooki created at this point? You know, it is it is terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible to watch. So, actually, I recommend that everyone go watch it to see how Roblox has become. So, everyone who's celebrating Roblox is this wondrous platform, this the growth engine for the industry, dude, this this [ __ ] is horrible. Absolutely horrible. And it actually kind of ties into now even the great epic Tim Sweeney is getting on board with this [ __ ] You know, this is where we've gone, you know, as a side. And I blame partially myself for being like this like money guy trying to explain why things should be done the way they are. But it is crazy. Absolutely crazy.
I played it together with my with my daughter. She's uh she's in Roblox generation. She's turning nine. That's a prime Roblox age. On totally different topic. I just want to give a massive thanks to Simon Hay. So Simon Hay is a

friend of the podcast and actually co-founder of Space Ape and uh also co-founder of Next Speed which was acquired by Dualingo just a few few weeks ago. So I'm giving him personal thanks because he invited me to a post Milan gig and this was the last gig of the tour. He invited me to London to to see it. So huge thanks together with his uh new overlords and um you know especially thanks because we haven't been the kindest to Space Ape over these years. Uh like we've been fans of the company but how they ditched the the whole notion of genres and audience focus and essentially we're making all sorts of games. Huge thanks to Simon. He's a cool dude. Also not English but Australian. So shout out to Aussie Simon. Hey. So, on to the shills. New Zoo, the good old New Zealand of Gaming Market Report. It's 199 pages long and I had a chance to ask all the

stupid questions from Emanuel who came in on the podcast. And this podcast essentially focusing on seven different topics. So, if you're interested about gaming market, check that one out. And if you don't want to listen to the full one-hour conversation, it's on the blog and on the newsletter. Also, in terms of upcoming events, I'm going to Mobictum, which is next month in Turkey. I forgot the dates, but you're if you're going, you probably know the dates. We're planning a brunch with founders at Soho House. Check out the newsletter. You will be able to sign up from there. And Phil, where are you going next?
Well, I'm going to Cyprus. Uh, based on your wonderful invitation for GDCY, it's going to be an executive event held in a winery.
What more is there to say? I think it's already all booked up. The hype train is going. We are going to be doing a podcast there as well
over you're living you're living the

Cypress lifestyle already.
We'll be doing the podcast from the Lambo. Uh, I heard there's hookah there's hookah involved. I don't think I mean Michigan. Do we have a shape for the podcast? I would say I've seen the guest list. I think there are a bunch of people that are worth catching up and checking in on. And so you might see a rotating cast of characters kind of like, you know, when they do red carpets, you know, you get five minutes to be each guest. So we'll we'll see what we we we cook up. But I think you're going to get some great content.
So look at you all like living the lifestyle. Hookers and blow. Hookers and blow at Cypress.
Uh you know, I it's a different world out there. Good. Uh, so if you want to be on this podcast and forget anything that Crest just said, if you want to be on the podcast, none of that that he advertised is there. So reach out to Phil Black. He will host you in Cyprus.
Yes. And this is next Friday.
Next Friday. So it's coming in hot. You have to reach out. There will be roundts

at the event and you'll probably be talking about the topics that you discuss on the roundts. So interesting format. We'll give it a go. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, at least it will be fun. On to corrections. Hey, are you building a game, launching an app, or considering an acquisition? Well, in that case, Deconstructctor Fund Consulting is here to help you out. We do everything from market research to go to market strategies to live ops optimization and due diligence. We're trusted by some of the most beloved game development companies, makers of tools and tech, as well as some of the most renowned investors. Now, if you are building, launching, or buying, don't do it alone. Do it with us. Connect by emailing to consulting at deconstructorof.com. Stay ahead of the competition with Sensor Tower, the trusted source for

mobile marketing intelligence. Whether you're tracking trends, benchmarking performance, or scouting the next big hit, Sensor Tower delivers the data that drives strategy. Dominate the charts with Sensor Tower.
Phil wanted me to read this, so this is from our newsletter. Supercell Squadbuster has gone from a massive launch to several pivots until finally being exiled to a team in the UK for mouthto-mouth resuscitation
resuscitation.
In the last tweak, the game got Philip Black body shot. His takedown was sharp, pointing to the dangers of being good but not Clash in a portfolio built on lightning in a bottle. Supercell has the luxury of swinging for the fences, but that also means misses look bigger than they are. the moment reflect a deeper truth. In a hit-driven business, even the best lose rounds. What matters is whether the next swing is bold enough to put them back on top. End quote from Phil Black in Super Souls World. Good

isn't good enough. So, Phil, what am I correcting?
Mishka, I've said none of this. I've literally highlighted all the lines that were AI generated. I said none of these things.
Yes. Yeah. So, this is AI generated. What we've done is as anybody is we run the transcript of our twig and put it into a newsletter and AI lies if you didn't know and so we will be much more focused on figuring out the lies but uh essentially we're trying a new concept where we we start sending weekly twig newsletter in addition to our existing it's for the same subscribers kind of summarize the news and it will have a lot of different clips but this one had all the things that Phil didn't say, but kind of. You said it right.
Sure.
In a more entertaining way. Phil, what did you say?
Different texture. Different texture to some things. I don't think you need to be Clash. And I never thought Squadbusters was good, but not Clash.

And I don't think Supercell's portfolio is built on Lightning on a bottle either. Uh, anyways. Okay. Since that episode, a bunch of people have reached out. There's a couple corrections that I'd like to start with. One is I mixed things up and I thought the Squadbusters game was shipped to London to the Space A team. That was not the case. They actually shipped a London GM to Helsinki to help run the game. I would say the other thing that was clear amongst the feedback I heard from from sources I trust is like, well, yes, they want to IPO, so no surprises there. We've talked about just a lot of consensus there.
For a year now,
for yeah, for a year, Squadbusters has been a [ __ ] show from the start to the finish. people refuse to kill the game. That has been affirmed by all these sources. And that the game is basically dead and it's going to be a fate similar to Boom Beach where they're going to ship it to an outsourcer because they just refuse to cleave the head. And so the problem a lot of people identified was that the incentives can be messed up because they're such a brutal process to

get a game global that these soft launches can go on forever that you know skipping these launches is actually just a way to survive, right? Because if you yolo it and you get the game out there, then you guarantee a life for yourself. You guarantee something, a product that actually gets to hit the market rather than spending year after year toiling away and soft launch. The unfortunate thing was that a lot of people pointed out that they felt like Supercell's old guard was holding back the company and silos were forming, which meant that it's hard to get one complete picture of Supercell. There just so many different Supercell cultures that are now spread out across all those different locations and a lot of them have been led by Ilka's lieutenants. People who were really important to the early forming of Supercell and they're well paid. They're having a good time and sometimes they can be resistant to change and that slowed them down. When you look at something like Clash Mini that that game got was was from Shanghai, right? Remember that was the f one of the first big Supercell expansions, right? I

remember there was San Francisco for UA and Shanghai was supposed to be a proper game development studio. Clash Mini was a product that they worked on for a very long time and got to a very good state. Supercell refused to release it and then they go ahead and launch Squadbusters without a soft launch. That is I think insulting and you know that's unfortunate. The thing I will say that people were excited by is that there's some new GMs coming in and this new blood could be really healthy for the company as well as removing some of the GMs who are not successful in adding to the culture. So I think there's some bright side to this too and let's see where everything lands.
Did you hear anything about North America?
I would say let's keep things positive. Let's keep things positive. I would say
let's just leave it at that.
Okay. uh North America. Let's talk about it later. I have a I have a question. So, kind of looking at Supercell's revenue charts,
the revenue is climbing towards the heights of 2024 when Brawl Stars was

doing phenomenally well. Phil, here you're showing just the uh the Clash Royale uh revenue data, but basically what you're seeing is massive climb of revenue and also massive climb of downloads, which Supercell never talks about. And of course everything is organic because you don't attribute things but this is very interesting. Do you think Clash Royale will continue this rise and kind of be the game of 2025?
A lot of this being is being driven by, you know, pumping up UA, right? So like they have tons of downloads coming in. So like the revenue is going up associated with downloads similar to what happened with uh Brawl Stars, right? But Brawl Stars came right back down and I would imagine this is coming right back down. And so in in some sense like an IPO is possible. The market is really frothy right now. So this is the time in which they could get out. It is possible, right? I I think it's far more important how they maintain growth, not this fact that they are actually growing by, you know, burning the ships by by

doing all this UA. You know, if this is like kind of a pump and dump where they're going to see the same type of performance they saw out of Brawl Stars over the next 6 to 12 months, that's not going to be a good thing. what they need to do, and I've said this a gajillion times, it's nothing new. They need to build organic growth with new games that deliver revenue and earnings, right? That's it. I mean, that that that's the goal is to build new games that drive revenue, right? This is what Supercell hasn't done in over a decade, you know? So, like they keep re-energizing old games, but not actually creating anything new that's sustainable, you know, since since a long time ago.
Are you Wait, are you serious? But that's
when's the last game that was sustainable? I
I don't disagree with you, but that's their their their story has been can they scale these forever franchises and inject them with new blood? Like that has been that's been their story is like can I take a team like Clash of Clans like that Clash of Clans by the way is up in terms of headcount. They've kept it going at incredible run rate. Clash Royale is part of the scaling story too.

Brawl Stars is a part of the scaling stories.
No, no. My point is it that that's not a good story.
Why is that not a big story? is like, "We're getting the factory going on our biggest franchises. You've got the Netflix trans media [ __ ] coming. Say what you will about it. The IP has grown. Why isn't that a part of their story?" Like, I get they haven't shipped new games. It [ __ ] sucks. They're not sustaining it. Like, Brawl Stars is falling off a cliff right now, right, after that huge story.
So, that doesn't mean it wasn't a profitable thing to do, even if it's coming down, right? They It could have been a profitable campaign and then they just dried up CPIs. I I think you're attributing Clash Royale to UA. I don't know where that's coming from.
The downloads the downloads are of course there's always a symbolic relationship between an increase in Of course they're looking at rorowaz. You're playing on rorowaz. Of course, if the game gets better at monetization, download should increase. Of course, that's the mark of good success. And we just don't know what the order of operations is.

I have a hard time imagining they're just eating margin for this expansion. I I don't I don't believe that to be the case. And they've been laying the groundwork for this in Clash Royale. They've made changes to cart evolution. They made changes to these lucky box systems. They've pulled back on free rewards. They've gotten their economy under control. They've done real things in the game economy.
They did the same thing with Brawl Stars and now it's like back to where it was before.
Different feature set. Look at I don't know if this is just a UA push or this is a sustained increase. If you look at revenue, they've had level shifts up in daily revenue when they launch features. Let's think even if they're successful in this process, I don't think this is sustainable from from an IPO perspective.
I agree. It's not a good story. It's not a good story.
So, that's my point. That's my main point. So, I don't know why we're arguing because like
if they can't build new games and scale them, then they are not a publisher that's worth it worth their salt, right? Yeah.
Having said that, like I think people's push back will be, well, look at EA, look at Take 2, all they're doing is rehashing old games. But they're actually building new [ __ ] all the time,

right? So GTA 6 is different than GTA 5, even though they're the same IP, right? So like, and in theory, GTA 6 will be bigger than GTA 5 in that sense, but EA is more like iterative, right? But they release a new game every year, even though it's FIFA and it's the same [ __ ] game by almost all measures, is still new and monetizing better. And this year looks like it's going to be amazing actually for monetization.
Do you think they should buy something?
Yeah, D. What do you think they should buy? forever. Why wouldn't they buy and buying capability?
Who do who do you think they should buy? Who
they should have bought peak?
Who do you think they should buy now? Put put a whole news behind him. Who do you think they should buy now? Right. That would be interesting. Who would they
They should buy Dream. They should buy Fun Plus. They should
You think they could buy Dream? How much do you think Fund Plus would be interesting? How much you think Dream would Fund Plus is portfolio is too big. What about Dream though? Dream seems interesting. How much do you think Dream [ __ ] You think they were in competition with equity firm?
No, they just because Supercell's not acquisitive. They they should have been acquiring all along and building more

capabilities and bringing like building a juggernaut of
well the irony is is Ilka said Gardcape should have been them. Remember he said this a really long time ago that he was disappointed that they didn't do that innovation. Why didn't he just go and [ __ ] buy it?
They had the possibility to acquire all these companies back in the days.
It's pure arrogance. Absolute pure arrogance in their abilities
and capabilities which is completely
No, not really. It was more like they thought that they weren't an acquire. They didn't have the organization to acquire companies and consolidate them because back in the day Supercell was really small like no today.
Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Anyways, that's Supercell. We talk about you because we love you. We want you to do better. This is not a [ __ ] talking thing about Supercell. We're content creators that are fans of the platform. So, Supercell, we want you to succeed.
I don't want to be a content creator.
All right, moving on. Moving on to Google.
I had some Discord stuff. So just just a short thing. So Discord feedback I heard from some of the folks who have been very active on the platform since the beginning and are running actually their

you know their business communication on that. They've said that Discord in their perspective is just more and more bugs coming in. The platform is deteriorating and they don't see Discord being around in the next decade to come that they will be switching to something new. They just don't know what. So um yeah, sounds like time to IPO. Anyways, uh so this is hearsay from people. Let's talk about Google.
Okay, Google. Um so Google announced new ways Google Play is built entirely around you. So this was a marketing I wish Jen was here for this one because the marketing around this was a little bit fluffy and weird and and very tech broy and there wasn't really a lot of coverage on it either which kind of is bizarre. But anyway, they're basically kind of oneupping Apple's announcement of their new kind of app on the platform with this thing called level up program. And it's basically, this is their PR press. It rewards developers who build

best-in-class gaming experiences, which is like, [ __ ] you, Google. Like, you haven't made a best-in- gaming experience. Who are you to say? Anyway, all right, whatever. You know, they basically you need to meet certain UX guidelines in order to be part of this level up program. What it provides is like a player engagement tools like a personalized play store section which can show events, offers, updates, rewards, um, and for games recently played, promotional tools and play console, achievements, play points, coupons, YouTube videos, events, etc. basically like saying discovery and growth um you know boosts across the play store uh opportunities for play points, boosters and quests. Editorial priority for games meeting these standards which is a little bit scary in my view anyway and some kind of like analytics ability to like analyze what's going on on their platform. So, but this is a big rewards program basically it

seems like, right? That is kind of spruced up and marketed like again by a bunch of tech bros that really probably know very little about gaming, but we we'll see. I don't know. So, my take on this, this feels exactly like the EA Apple announcement. Like, I'm a much bigger fan of Google. It feels like they're up to something as well. Like, I'm not going to let them off the hook on this one either. I mean, they're getting sued by even more people than Apple, maybe. Yeah, I get it, right? Like, but what the [ __ ] have you been doing for the last 15 years with your store? You know, it's like this is why is this coming out now, right? Like the gaming industry has been growing at 20% kagger for [ __ ] 12 15 years and now you're building tools and technology to like help with engagement. And it just it kind of blows my mind that this is kind of happening now and just like, you know, out of the blue. So, what am I missing on this from a developer perspective? Why would developers want to be participating in this? And like isn't it just better to build this stuff on your own and build your own network

like for Supercell or for you know Zingga or whatever or so that you have more control over the data and why would you want to rely upon Google and Apple for these type of things right and my other big concern with this stuff is like is this going to become more of a punishment for those that don't participate versus a benefit for those that do? Like this is my biggest concern with any of this stuff. like are only people that participate going to get the benefits of this platform and then the people that don't are going to be left in the [ __ ] cold, you know?
And this was interesting piece like they they clearly capitalize on Apple's game app backlash if you will. There's like a Gen AI avatars which is very Discord vibe. The the whole thing of earning Google Play points across mobile and PC. So basically this ability to get inapp and in-game items to purchase discount coupons for different items, receive Google Play credits, get partner rewards, donate points, essentially creating an economy of loyalty points. They announced this sort of a sidebar

agent with relevant information which again in the demo was essentially um from the side you could just swipe and it shows you different bundles you can buy. I guess it makes sense for much deeper games where you can ask like where can I get this currency and so forth like it takes the exploration if if all you do is just ask AI what to do next. They announced this sort of a thing which is uh the community pages I forgot what it was called was essentially is Reddit for Google. They announced also that the Google PC enters beta with a catalog including 200,000 titles across mobile and PC. That's a lot. Let's see what's there. And then the the whole you tab home base with all of this and curated content as you said Eric and rewards and subscriptions and recommendations and overall just felt to me like classic Google very much software first. It feels also risky to launch so many new things at the same time because you would kind of assume that each of these verticals needs to be

modified, adjusted, tuned, you know, get some player feedback before it's launched globally, but it kind of feels like they're just dropping everything all at once.
They're up to something, right? They're up to something. They they're doing this as a defensive play or maybe an offensive play against powers that be that are coming after them from regulation perspective. It's the only reason that you put out a piece of software like this like so abruptly without really much testing or you know Yeah. like all these different features at once. It's crazy. You know, they're just feeling the pressure of web shops as we've been talking about. Like they need to hold on to the platform and make having this experience be worth it. Not only that, like they're finally accepting their destiny. It's been silly for the longest time that they haven't embraced PC distribution for the Google Play Store. Like this is how they could fight back against Steam. And the fact that I had to rely on Blue Stacks and there was so much pent-up demand for this is crazy to me that they've let this go that people actually do want to

play Google Play games on their PC and so they're finally at least embracing that. But the rewards program I think is good for us, right? Like I think you got to look at it as what is the percent of GDP that's going to be refunded to gamers, right? Cuz that's what a rewards program is, right? It's just trying to keep a lot of the swishing going in the system. And that's what I want to see from Google is like to make an aggressive investment in this Google Play points which they've already had but they also are doing interesting gamification like they have Google Play point leagues like we might see [ __ ] Lava Quest for match coming to Google Google Play loyalty programs there are chained quests there are login streaks this Gemini thing is weird as hell and maybe they're going to train AI data based on our screen movements cuz that's what they demoed right is that you were playing a FIFA match and it could analyze your play patterns. To your point, Eric, there are big things at play, but I think these are positive.
If if you're king, why would you want Google anywhere [ __ ] near your customer with loyalty and rewards and stuff like that? Like, why would you

want these guys part of this stuff, you know?
No, you don't. Because now it's a competing service to your own loyalty program. Like, you go to the super any stores. Yeah. Huge, huge, huge opportunity, right? And you can do price discrimination based on who you give discounts to.
If I'm an honest broker on this stuff, back in the day when I was at Kabam, we were looking at like game center and play and all these other things as potential partners in building out this stuff, but we're like we don't want them to build this stuff out. We really want to build our own interactions with our customer, right? And so that's part of the reason most likely Apple and Google didn't go down this road because they probably got feedback from the publishers like, "Yeah, yeah, I don't know if we want that, right? We don't want that." But now they're introducing this like 15 years later. It's like it's a little too late. This would have been nice to have like over the life of the a mobile, but now it's like it seems counterintuitive for publishers to use this. And so like I keep saying this to over and over again. I need to get some feedback from some people that are looking at this from a big company like Scopely. Like Monopoly Go is going to be

on this thing. No [ __ ] way that is happening. There is no goddamn way that they are doing that. Like but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just an idiot that doesn't understand what the [ __ ] they're doing here. Speaking of which, what the [ __ ] is Xbox doing, Mr. Mishka?
Let's see if this brings the energy. So, Xbox had two pieces of news. So, headline one, Xbox has made its largest investment in Game Pass to date this year. Says ID at Xbox Boss. Interesting. I didn't know what that is even. Uh, headline two, Xbox just got more expensive. uh new price hike four months later uh since the last price hike. So talking about the first headline, the spokesperson for ID at Xbox, Chris Charla said, "The majority of Xbox partners who have had a game featured on Game Pass want to bring their future titles to the service. As a result, we've signed deals with more than 150 partners to expand the catalog. At the

same time, as I said, the second price hike four months later, essentially if we look at the cheapest one, Xbox Series S, it goes from 379 to 400 bucks. So 20 bucks. And in comparison here in Athens, I just looked at the prices. It costs $422 if we're using course. So even without the price hike, actually Xbox are more expensive in Europe. Yay. Let me unpack this news the way I see it and I'll let Crest go. So ID at Xbox is a program Microsoft allowing independent game developers to self-publish titles for Windows and the Xbox. And this person is heading this program. And why they're making these news is I think is because FTC has been on Microsoft's ass about Game Pass. And they have doing this because they keep hiking up prices while making the service works. So, Microsoft ditched last year, September 2024, its

game pass for console tier and introduced this new $15 tier, which basically gives access only to the back catalog and not the new games. And FTC said that product degradation, removing the most valuable games from Microsoft's new service, combined with price increases for existing users, is exactly a sort of consumer harm from the merger that FTC has alleged. This is what I'm quoting them. So, I think that they're pumping up this positive news of like, hey, you know, we're adding so much more content, so much more cool stuff. even though that these are independent developers that are kind of self-publishing on the platform just to keep the good vibes and not enrage FTC. Chris, you know this much better.
Well, I'm not going to go on a long rant on this cuz it's just getting tired, but I'll just three points here. You can't grow an install base without an affordable console and unique content versus your comp competition. So, you're

competing against Sony and Nintendo, and you are [ __ ] losing badly. Okay? The subscription is [ __ ] right? This is not good for them. You can't keep increasing the Game Pass subhook cost and hope to scale to new users. That's ridiculous. There's no way you're going to get more users by increasing the the price of the [ __ ] subscription. This is crazy. And just for the record, no one wants to play your [ __ ] service on an iPhone. And no one wants to play your stupid streaming tech. So like that's not going to work either. So I mean this is just like watching a train wreck in slow motion. It is [ __ ] painful, painful, painful, painful, painful. And I agree, this is exactly what I was concerned about and the FTC was concerned about. But unfortunately, the FTC had no ability to actually do anything against this merger, right, between Activision and Microsoft. And so now we're kind of stuck in this quagmire of [ __ ] right? So I really do feel sorry for anyone at Microsoft at this

point. This is going to be a long, painful, arduous like process of destruction. It's It's really sad to see what's become of Microsoft. So anyway, all right, moving on.
Let's talk about Epic Games.
Actually, to no real surp Well, actually, this is a bit surprising. I'm a little bit torn on this one because I've been [ __ ] railing against this since this thing was like announced, right? So supposedly starting in December 2025, creators of Fortnite Creative using UAPn will be able to sell in-game items directly in their Fortnite islands. So finally these things will be consumable, single, limited use, durable, cosmetic skins, etc. So, at the end of the day, finally, they're allowing microtransactions within their their their games for developers, right? Which again

is like [ __ ] obvious, right? Like that they this should have been done from the get-go. It never made sense to design a platform without the ability for your developers to actually make money. So they're clearly moving away from this idea of engagementbased monetization, right, for their developers and they're allowing people to do MTX finally, right? So just to be clear though, Sweeney was out here June 2025 and he said, and I quote, "Epic wouldn't add any more monetization options for Fortnite creators. The rationale is to keep Fortnite player first, avoid pay to win loot box style mechanics, and prevent items that only work in one island. He contrasted this with Roblox. He also warned about ecosystem in shitification. In shitification, he created a [ __ ] term of what he's doing right now, by the way, from aggressive monetization. Well, so much for that, right? He clearly got off his high horse and

realized that you can't build a platform in this [ __ ] method at all. Right? And again, this was the only way to build a UGC network is to allow for monetization. And it was a really dumb idea not to include this from the very get-go or at least express plans of integrating it. Maybe it would take time for them to integrate it. That's true. But to be just a few months ago, he's basically saying, "No [ __ ] way. we're doing this and they're doing it because obviously it is the most obvious thing they need to do. So the question now from going forward is how much are they going to police loot boxes and pay to win, right? What are the rules of engagement for publishers and developers? Are they going to even allow loot boxes? Actually, it's a little bit unclear so far anyway. I don't really know. My bet is that the [ __ ] legions of lawyers at Epic are going to be all over this like white on rice, dude. Like it is going to be bad, right? which I think is a huge mistake. You can't pull the band-aid off this. This is like a philosophical thing with Tim at Epic.

And so I just can't think they can unwind this in like one fell like signing of the pen and allowing people to do monetization. And the other last challenge is that they have to bring all these developers back, right? Cuz all these guys started making games for [ __ ] UAP. It was a [ __ ] disaster. Now you're going to ask them to come back in the hope that they can actually monetize the games that they're creating, you know? It's like I don't know. It seems like a bit of a challenge for them, but it isn't the right move. It just should have been done a long time ago, right when it started.
I I don't know what to say. Like I I remember having Alex Ropi and Pete Holly both came in on the podcast and they were kind of early on on this platform when they launched and they were very they gave quite of a sobering take of where the platform was at that point. And this is what a year year and a half ago. And since then I I keep kind of raising this up with bunch of UGC studios if they're still planning to publish on Fortnite. And all of them are kind of not abandoned but basically just

saying there's nothing there like it's it's not a sustainable platform. Maybe these are the very much needed changes that that begin making it. But I was I was again I was looking for some information today just kind of googling whether the Fortnite UGC is growing and apparently according to some numbers it is but um I'm kind of confused because the word according to the studios is is that this is not as sustainable. You can't market can't monetize you can't track it misses the most basic features. It's fun to do a little demo but that's pretty much it. I would like to redo Eric's bashing and say thank you Epic executives for listening to the podcast and making the changes that we've been strongly recommended.
We're very thankful you did this and that you saved the platform which is now your one true hope to fight Roblox, right? Because one of the things that they also announced, remember previously was that remember it's 0% rate for the first $1 million. They also talked about reducing the engine fee. If you have

Unreal, they get a 5% rev share. And they bump that down to 3.5 if you simultaneously ship your product on EGS. That is an amazing [ __ ] offer. That is an amazing [ __ ] offer to putting something on EGS. So, I give him credit for that. Remember, they have the first run program. For the first 6 months, you get 100% revshare and then remember, you only transition to 88%. They announced Epic Webs, which I think is going to be really key. Remember, they still have the mobile distribution due to the DMA in Europe and they announced that they have 40 million installs on the platform. So, you got to give them some credit for that. They are trying to expand it. They announced a ton of AI news for UFN. Remember that was another thing that Epic was hesitating over that I thought came directly from Tim was his view on AI. They seem to completely embrace it. They have this new graph system for UFN. They have new IPs coming to UFN. They announced Squid Games, Avatar Last Airbenders, Star Wars. They announced an AI agent chatbot. Remember they had one in Fortnite for Vader that you could

talk to and you know it went off the rails a little bit, but they are adopting all of these things. They're trying to make this work and we need for them to make it work because again it is the resistance to Roblox because you can take what you have in UFN on Verse and you can offload it to Unreal 5 or Unreal 6 and you can publish it as a full game. You can't do that in Roblox. You are you are locked in that tech stack. They [ __ ] have you by the balls like all the way down into the engine. They have the server code. They have everything. That is what you risk on that platform. They're coming for everything. That's what I think people got to realize. They ain't coming for a little bit. They're coming for everything. They want the ads platform. They want the engine platform. They want the the the payment platform. Like that is not good for us. This was necessary to get the flywheel going. And I I want to give them credit for it. I'm hoping they got tons of pressure from other people besides us, but like I'm sure all the developers were basically saying the same thing that I'm saying.
Pretty [ __ ] much.
It's the most obvious thing on the planet. Like the fact that we're still

discussing this is ridiculous. And the fact that he was doubling down in June of 2025, you know, honestly, Tim kind of looks like a buffoon, you know. Anyway, it doesn't it doesn't matter at the end of the day. You're right. We need a competitor for Roblox. We need a high fidelity competitor Rolex. We need to see better UGC experiences. We'll see a lot of those experiences from Roblox kind of ported over to UFN most likely because they'll in theory be able to do the same egregious monetization.
Remember, you own the IP on Roblox. I think that's important for people to remember. Like if you do a publishing on Roblox, you don't own the rights to the blocks characters. And I'll double check this for next week if someone reaches out, but my understanding is that you still like Adopt Me can go somewhere else if they want to.
Good for them. They finally realized what we all knew from the very get-go, right? Okay, moving on. Okay, this is a quick one. So, uh, European lottery giant Allwin announced a definitive agreement to acquire prize picks. Um, the Dvar the largest daily fantasy

sports operator in North America. So, the initial valuation is consideration of 1.6 billion, which actually makes them worth 2.5 billion. the total with the earnout could make them worth even 4.15 billion evidently contingent on you know price fix meeting some things so for all win this is basically an acquisition it's a major push in the US market now you have to remember that priceix is not a gambling company per se it is a uh predictive markets company which is basically gambling
what's interesting about this is that this is a really really hot space right now in the US because of all the regulation changing here and so could have great opportunities for other companies that are trying to take advantage of of the growth in this space in in things. So on the other on the other side this makes me look like an absolute [ __ ] right? Just to be clear. So let's review the timeline on this one since I've been talking about this. So Mikewigley is a

friend who used to be my boss at EA, right? And I said on the podcast that MikeWigley got paid on the acquisition of Niantic. Mike leaves Niantic. Mike joins Prize Picks. And I call Mike Quigley dumb for not retiring after the big windfall from Niantic and joining a company Atlanta for Christ's sake because he's a California boy, right? And now six months later, Prize Picks is acquired by Owen, right? So I guess Mike is not the dumb one. Anyway, good for Mike. you know, he's uh definitely going where the puck is going and and doing a lot better than I am. So, uh I applaud Mr. Mike for being the most brilliant person in the industry. Anyway, we should see a lot more acquisitions in this space as people take advantage of the US market, which is absolutely massive for gambling, even though I completely 100% disagree with all of it. So, there we go.
This is huge. I'm doing a lot of consulting for this right now. There's a

lot of people looking at this space.
I think the prediction part is important, right? So you go to prize picks there is a hey you know is LeBron going to score 30 or more points tonight yes or no that's how they frame it I think that is important but if you are a game maker like again like there's nowhere we can't apply our tool set and when you play a lot of these sports books slots whatever it may be they really struggle in terms of UX and there's a ton of opportunity to do better in this space that again no one has brought to bear on them they are completely siloed and pay attention to it you know hopefully in the coming weeks I want to talk more about sweep peeps, which we haven't done a great job on, but that's been another space that's exploding. There's a lot of segments on mobile that don't show up on sensor tower anymore, right? These are all payments that are usually happening off platform. You're not going to see the IP revenue, which is like the admon stuff, but they're really, really exciting and they're just again not hitting the balance sheet.
Yeah, it feels like we need to bring back the tokconomics segment to just uh talk about
Oh god, not [ __ ]
No, no, we still don't care about that. No, I'm just mean like they're they're

as evil as I gaming and skill gaming and sweep stakes and
so here's my biggest concern actually honest with you with this when I was thinking about it. Um so Viky Barra came from Activision Blizzard right um and he is the CEO of the company and the one thing that Price Fix has done is they've maintained themselves as a predictive markets company and not gone into actually gambling strictly gambling right which is part of their mantra all along. Personally, I don't know I'll win at all, but I can't imagine that that's not what they're angling for here, right? To get a foothold into the actual real gambling market in the US with prize picks because they price pickics is the largest predicted markets. So, for strategically for them, I I would imagine that over time, this is the way they get into this market, right? Because they don't have any presence in this market right now. There's more predictive markets going

on. Remember, there's Poly Market, there's Koshi, and Robin Hood is kind of experimenting with this. Like, there's a lot of really interesting things happening right now in terms of like dynamics for this cuz like all these businesses are basically like grafting on all this [ __ ] Like a lot of these companies are like grafting on slots onto sports books. Like they're just basically grafting on all these high like average revenue, average revenue per paying user businesses and like using them as UA funnels. Again, I I think there's a lot of entry points into this, right? I I is it the largest prediction platform? I'm sure I'm sure it is, Eric, but like the poly market stuff and the college sheet.
It's a different world, but it I I think it's still in that same ballpark. No one's gamifying this as hard as they should.
Have you played price? It is pretty amazing what they've done with that.
Yes, I think I think it can be even better. I think there's more they can do to make it even better.
I'm sure they have they have a two or three year earnout. So Mike Quickley is not off the hook, dude. He's [ __ ] flying Atlanta every week or something, whatever he's doing. So like he's got he's got to get make this [ __ ] work so he gets paid on the back end, right?

Then that guy better goddamn retire, dude. If he takes another job, I'm coming back at him. I don't care how smart he is, dude. Enough's enough. All right, moving on. Game devs. Here at Heroic Labs, we know that great gameplay is what players love. But integrating metagame features like challenges, progression, and rewards is crucial for retention and monetization. But coding them is a tedious and timeconuming process. That's why top studios have turned to Hero from Heroic Claps. Hero provides a complete suite of battle tested metagame features that are quick to implement, letting you spend more time on the core gameplay experience. Ready to ship fully featured engaging games? Check out heroto today at heroiclabs.com.
Guessing where your users come from? That's so 2010. Appsflyer is like having a cheat code for mobile marketing. Pinpoint attribution, real-time insights, and analytics that actually make sense. Stop flying blind and start flying smart. Appsflyer because your

data is your best co-op partner. Web stores. You've seen what good looks like, but have you seen great? App charge is the direct to consumer platform backed by the likes of Supercell and built by monetization pros from Moon Active, Platika, Huge Games, and others. People who know the difference. App charge powers over half a billion dollars in transaction a year for top studios, optimizing every detail. deeply personalized web store offers custommade design, industry-leading monetization features, in-game payments SDK, and more. 70% of the top grossing games already have a web store, but the one scaling fastest, they're doing it with app charge. Learn more at appcharge.com. [Music] Um, I wanted to talk about an app because we've been talking about apps and games. And this is kind of a company that has a has a big gamified app. So,

this is Spain-based mobile edtech company, Lingo Kids. I happen to know this because we use this because we have kids that need to learn new languages. They've raised $120 million in recent funding rounds.
Jesus Christ.
But here's the thing. Here's the thing. You got to go to the details. This rounds combines equity financing and go to market investment
and the uh one of the investors is General Catalyst and General Catalyst has a big customer acquisition fund. So anyways, the proceeds will be deployed to accelerate AIdriven content production just like we use and personalization, expand integration of third party IPs and enhance diversification and quality of lingo cificational offering. So let me give some takeaways. So, what you can see here is a nice little graph of Lingo Kids. And this is, gentlemen, what sexy looks like. You got the uh the downloads going nicely up. You know, there's

different campaigns. It goes up, it goes down, and then you have revenue just jumping and going like up up and to the right. And when you have graphs like these, you're able to raise significant rounds. So, that this is like the old good old mobile. So, apps are are still there. Other takeaways apart from the the sexy graphs that's a lot of money but again we don't know what the percentages of UA financing is you can go and check out we had a podcast probably less than a month ago with uh PVX and General Catalyst GM who was actually running this customer acquisition fund and he talked about actually mobile gaming examples where they use it. So it could be that 80% of this fund is user acquisition financing. Uh it could be that 15 it could be 50. So we don't know. We don't know how much of the 120 is actually financing. This one is perfect example how you compete with Dualingo. There have been plenty of different learning apps coming out that are aimed essentially at the same audience and they use different hooks,

maybe more serious, maybe more AI conversations like Practica. But in this one, this is conniving because Lingo Kids literally gets them young. So you get the kids learning the languages and then as they mature they probably have more apps coming out and and in their portfolio that will keep the kids engaged. So very smart way to kind of capture them before they get to Dualingo. Another takeaway is UA financing works at a massive scale and and this is what we'll be seeing. Another takeaway was that funds use UA financing to access scaling companies and limit dilution. Because if you consider this, the fund in this case, General Catalyst gets to look at their numbers, gets to probably invest a little bit of money into different cohorts. They're seeing that this game is scaling. So now they are making sort of a safe investment giving UA financing, but also making an equity investment into this company where they captured both of the upsides, the upside of cohorts returning and the upside of

the valuation of this company going up. So interesting to see if more and more of these VC funds will be applying UA financing. Of course they need to have the expertise to do it. Not just the human expertise but actually a platform to be able to understand the cohorts or an investment into platform to understand the cohorts. And finally VCs have shifted attention to apps over games. Uh I think this is one of those examples and interesting to see that this company has actually launched games and launching games in addition to apps. Phil, what do you have about this?
Do you know how they monetize
uh subscription?
They have a subscription revenue. So, basically they their only growth factor if they go with a subscription is either what? They increase the RPO with the subscription, they reduce churn, or they get user acquisition up. So, what are they? They they're scaling right now. So, everything's going to be about active users for them. I don't know. Let's let's let's see like I mean where's the money? I mean, the money I would argue when you have that sort of base is ad revenue, but I guess it kind of kind of conflicts with the message.

Uh
yeah, so Dualingo pushed pretty heavy on ad revenue. They didn't use this before, but now I actually went premium right away because there were too many ads.
But but here's the thing, right? They raised 120 million in funding. And I guess from from you and Eric's perspective, like what valuation does that put them at? And what revenue do they need to justified on an annual basis to justify that evaluation? And is that consistent with how many kids you can get at that subscription arpoo rate? I think is skeptical at best. $120 million in funding.
Yeah, but they we don't know how much of that is equity.
So, it could be. Let's say they got 100 million in loans
and 20 million in equity finance.
That's That's fair. That's fair. It's just a headline number. It's just a headline number.
Okay. News. Take 2 Interactive through its sub subsidiaries Zinga and Rolex. Remember, they acquired Relic. They have acquired full rights to the mobile puzzle title game Color Block Jam. And

we'll be looking at a graph of Color Block Jam relative to its booming puzzle portfolio in a moment here from Turkey based guide gains for an undisclosed amount. So now they have full ownership of the Color Block Jam IP. It feels like almost overnight, but when you look at what Take 2 has done in a lot of these casual puzzle genres and how they've grown a lot of really interesting match titles, they have three huge leaders right now. They have Color Block Jam, which is leading the block puzzle subcategory. They have Match Factory, which last time we checked in has scaled to a nice healthy equilibrium. It's going to continue to generate a lot of money each year. That's the number one game in what the Central Tower calls the match pair genre. And they have the top game in Blast, which is Toon Blast, which is down to be fair, but still is the top game in that subcategory. And so if you combine all three games, again, we're just looking at IEP, which counts off ad revenue, which I would argue is probably the biggest for Color Block Jam. They did 68 million according to

Sensor Tower. So that like what around 800 million per year in annual revenue, maybe 1 billion with ads. Like that's a significant chunk of cash now for Take 2 and they've kind of almost quietly become leaders in in Puzzle. I know you've like [ __ ] on the Zinga acquisition, but I still think like this is a really positive result for them. Definitely they are back on track now to be clear like if you actually look look at the data like every single one of their franchises is down except for Peak and Roll, right? like it seems like they're moving all the UA dollars and all the focus and attention on the puzzle category which is is working for them right and so they have actually definitely increased their revenue growth and profitability on the mobile side after you know 3 years of declines so they had 15 million MAU 15 million MAU for color block jam in August 2025 blast hit 6.5 and match factory hit 5.3 they all seem to be on pretty steady

trajectories I mean that's super impressive you got to hand it to them. Uh, and these are innovative games, too. Like I I think that needs to be pointed out. Like they're not just generic copies. They they try to do interesting things in each one of them.
I would just want to say a couple words. So I visited actually Rolex offices and we have a on dector of fund. We have an interview with their CEO Barack Vardal. And I mean this is the biggest hybrid casual publisher. I'm sure Take 2 is loving them cuz they keep, you know, they keep the engines humming. They're working on a Barbie game. you remember that announcement? So, they're pulling in IPS as well. They basically have control of the whole Turkish ecosystem as a publisher.
Powerful company. And what's interesting about it, they're so different than Woo. You know, they are in the same business. They're heated rivals, but having gone to both of these publishers, like Woodoo is a quintessential tech company in the in the heart of Paris. And then you go to Rolex, it is as gaming company as you

can get. like there are gaming chairs and gaming layers and games everywhere and gongs and like it's it's such a different vibe and so cool to see like these two very very different publishers with very different approaches are succeeding at the same time. So shout out to Roric and then check out the interview if you haven't with their CEO. You'll hear more about their quite unique approach and and very very developer friendly if you will.
All right, Borderlands 4. Uh I this was more topical last week or the week after before when I put this in here, but we'll just do it anyway. Borderlands 4 is out and so far the response has actually been reasonably good. You know, about around 84 Metacritic, except they're clearly some absolutely unforced errors from their illustrious leader uh Randy Pitchford, which we'll get to in a minute. Overall, the feedback on the game is it's been toned down from like the runchiness and the silliness in Borderlands 3, which I think people didn't like so much, so they basically notched it down a bit. I personally would still argue that they just didn't move away from the core formula enough.

Like it seems like there's an opportunity to expand beyond what they're doing and and build more of a looter shooter with more depth. But you have to respect the fact that they're just trying to maintain the core vision of the game and and keep that core gameplay for their core and fan base. So I think they're sitting at like three and a half to four million units somewhere around there, which is actually a reasonably good performance, not exceptional, right? But overall, it's a very very good Borderlands game generally speaking. However, there are some performance issues on PC, right? And a lot the claims have been with the fact that Unreal optimization with Unreal 5 has been a challenge and it's resulted some really struggles like even on the highest quality uh card from Nvidia RTX 5090, you know, these cards cost like $1,000 plus, right? They're having some issues with frame rates and stuff like that. There's real struggles on Steam Deck and other low-end devices because Steam Deck is a piece of [ __ ] But this is all relatively common issues for the PC community, right? Obviously, some

genuine concerns when these like super cards can't work. But nonetheless, optimization is actually critical and that's why PC is kind of a painful place to be. But of course, Randy Pitchford, who can't keep his mouth shut, put his foot in his mouth in the most epic fashion for no reason. No reason at all. like he didn't need to comment on this stuff. And so basically on this feedback, this negative feedback on performance on PC, which is a small segment of the overall audience, by the way, the majority of people are buying this thing on console most likely, but it is more of a PC type center. He basically said this is a premium game for premium gamers. These are all his quotes, by the way. So he defended Borderlands 4 demanding hardware requirements by saying it's a premium title and that players with older or underpowered PCs shouldn't expect it to run well on lowspec machines. Okay, then he used like this monster truck leaf blower analogy. He's like if you're trying to drive a monster truck with a

leaf blower's motor, you're going to be disappointed. I.e. if you have weak hardware, don't expect high performance. He told to satisfy his players that they could get refund from Steam if you aren't happy or that they should consider running at a lower resolution like 1440 versus 4K for better performance which actually is a legitimate thing but still when you're running 8090 you don't run on [ __ ] 1440 right okay finally and then less than one% of 1% of players report valid performance issues based on his support tickets but like all these things are just creating this ins senior moment that didn't need to exist. Like the PC players are the core of the core. Like you don't want to piss them off. And when your game releases, Brandy, please stay the [ __ ] off Twitter, right? Like let the comms do the talking for you. Let's say that you're working on solutions to make it better, right? That's all that needs to be said. There is no reason to go out there on Twitter and start [ __ ] saying this [ __ ]

right? I frankly agree with him on most of this point, right? like if you want to write run the highest specs on a PC, you have to have the right rig to do it, right? But there's no reason for him as a publisher to say these things, you know, you don't want to engage with these lunatics that are like super hardcore PC guys. And basically, it only can hurt your reputation from the gamer perspective, but also it hurts the customers that you're trying to attract to your game. And so anyway, like it's just a PR nightmare for them. every time he releases a game, it's always the same thing. He just starts going off on Twitter, right? I don't know what he's thinking, but anyway, nonetheless, the game looks pretty pretty good. It's doing well. It is another, you know, great big franchise for um the gaming industry.
I think it's really interesting to contrast this against what we just talked about, which was Puzzle for Take 2, cuz remember this is all under one roof. If they've done, let's say, 3.5 million copies, let's say $60 ASP, you're looking at around a quarter of a

billion dollars. So, let's let's double that, right? Let's say they get to 8 million units. And let's hold that $60 ASP constant. Okay, that's half a billion dollars, right? And we just were talking about these three puzzle games doing in excess of half a billion dollars every single year. Like that just looks like such a more attractive business to me. Like running a live service, which sounds very obvious, but I think it's important to like rehighlight like, oh man, now you've got to hold your breath every single time they do a new Borderlands of like are they going to pull it off, right? And when I looked at the MAU numbers for Borderlands, so if we go to that slide, Mishka, we look at some of the comps, and I think it is tough to comp Borderlands. But when we look at it against The Division or Diablo II or we look at it against Warframe, I think that's an interesting way to look at it because you Borderlands 3 was having around 1 million MAU across Steam, PlayStation, and Xbox. Like that's a fairly decent base to try to build a franchise on. They're not seeing the live service

angle here. Like I've seen a lot of these games which are premium games and have long engagement tales because they have good loops. Like a looter loop is a great RPG loop and I I wish they would just try to at least double down or spin it off to another studio or do something with this. Like I think it's a shame just to let these 1 million MAU just get unfed. Like there's money here.
The team themselves are not really geared up to do a live service model that you're suggesting. I kind of made the same argument you did the last time. It's like look, they seem like they're making the same game over and over again and we've evolved beyond that. And it's like like they're building a game like nothing has happened. Like Destiny didn't happen, Division didn't happen, like Overwatch, whatever. Like all these games have come out with like software as a service and and they're just sticking in their lane, right? And so in some ways, like I agree, like they could be doing a lot more with it, but they seem not to want to. And so like in essence it is what it is, right?
We haven't talked about Tina's Wonderland, right? That that that was

that was interesting, but where's Zach Zelnik? Isn't this like supposed to be this guy's specialty? He he mentioned this in interviews. This is what he's supposed to do. He's got fitness and he's got managing creatives. Why can't he pump a service out of this?
They were only part of Take 2 recently. So like Take Two really has no say in in this particular game. It was part of our favorite. They were part of Embracer for a long time. And so like that's when this game was made. So, it's not like Take two or Zelnik has any say into what this game is, nor would he because because Randy has closed, you know, has like a tight control over this. Um, obviously, this was exactly why you never do trans media, right? Unless you're Nintendo, you know, I kind of applaud the fact that they're stay sticking true to their guns and and and they're actually making a game that they want to make and and this game looks pretty good and it services that audience, but this is what it is. It's like a 6 million unit like first two months at full price and the rest is going to be discounted to [ __ ] you know, in 1999 and they'll get to like 12 to 15 million units in the next few years and that's the number that they'll

throw out there. But yeah, it's a probably likely a profitable game although the development cost is probably a couple hundred million. So they have to they're still got to make more money on it. So anyway, yeah, it is what it is. How about that?
Like it looks really good. like it just bal like it's higher than Warframe on this one in terms of user base. Basically what you're saying is this will fall off the cliff.
Yeah. It's a premium game. This is just launch hype. This is this is movie this is movie theater economics.
Yeah.
Okay. Well, shout out to Kevin Hart and I think
Kate Blanchett got [ __ ] looped into a Borderlands movie. That's that's what we we we brought to this world.
No one can escape. That's a that's nobody no one cares. Anyway, see you next week. Goodbye everybody. You did it. You made it to the end of the episode. As a fan of the show, it would help us out if you'd subscribe and leave us a review on the podcast service of your choice. Those stars and likes,

while small action on your part, mean a lot to us and help to grow the show. More importantly, are you a member of the Deconstructor of Fun Slack group? If you have 5 years or more of games industry experience, go to deconstructorofund.com/slack and apply to join. Join the games industry best professional community filled with peers always willing to lend a hand or subscribe to our newsletter to get all the latest insights from the deconstructor of fun content creators. Thanks for listening.