TWIG #176 LIVE from Istanbul!

[Music] hey everyone we're waiting for misska to get miked up and we actually have a special guest in this episode of the first ever live twig it's uh chris petrovick will be joining us so uh he's enriched many of your colleagues and now he's here to talk to us yeah adam telfer could not be here this week because uh he just has a newborn that he is suffering through at this point see i'm not going to fall this time around chris should be here sure so raise a show of hands who listens to the podcast all right pretty good good numbers okay

so what's up guys yeah this is this is how this normally goes yeah this is it this is like the pre-recording banter yeah i took a nice nap you did yeah i went back to the hotel to take a nap yeah i was dying really i got like three hours sleep why i was jet lagged man i couldn't save hookah before did you go to the gym in the morning yeah that wasn't a joke no you went to the gym this morning yeah that was your mistake well make sure i don't trip like you did this yeah we'll have this like uh this shows you what a late edition i was i know yeah this is how professional this normally is we build it up let's let's get the energy going again can we get the music going one more time the intro music let's go live twig first time ever big shout out to the people that stayed yeah the party's downstairs actually should we take it downstairs where the coffee is maybe do it down

there yeah well i was asking where the beer is but apparently there's no no i didn't ask that [Music] sorry as i'm hyping everybody could get a shout out to the to the tech staff yeah thank you yes yeah well again welcome to the first ever live deconstructor of fun twig um this is we're going to try to the same format as we do but it's a little bit easier when you're screaming into a microphone in your basement then what number is this uh this is 1786 176 maybe i don't know we're approaching 200 now yeah mishka and joseph kim started this two and a half years ago i joined slightly after because i was listening to it it was horrific and they definitely hated me uh so i joined and i've been doing it ever since two years two and a half years unbelievable um and when did you guys level up with eric

seaford about a year ago yeah that was it certainly that was a step change down i thought it was the reverse yeah the the numbers dropped off the cliff that was literally a year ago yeah you could join in it's mid pandemic i'm like what else i have to do sure when i'll build myself as a long-time listener first-time caller yeah no he's trying to you've never been on a journey you've never invited me but joke joseph kim's had me on his a few times oh that's true but you've been on the podcast but not on the twig because you've been published on dof yeah yeah um i had to earn my way gotcha slowly so just as a anybody that's not listened to the podcast i mean what i think makes it unique is that we are four different people with four different backgrounds so we have an expert in ua we have uh adam telford who's an expert in monetization design triple a and then we have mishka who is supposedly an expert in video game design except he's never made a successful video game smart

he's never made a successful game just for the record yes i have no let's continue and then and then i have to admit i am an expert in nothing but i know a lot a little about a lot of things i think and i go from the market at 30 000 feet and you know kind of drop bombs on all kinds of different things um and you know i'm like you but just more diplomatic and and i said this in the podcast before with chris is chris and i are very very similar in the way we think but the way we express our opinions is quite a bit different and he's far more diplomatic and far better at it than i am softer edges yes yeah right um i also say that i'm 50 right and i have a career that's going to be another six years i really don't care about burning bridges you know so you can barely get across one so i will what are you gonna do in six years travel i'll play mishka's game yes that's the one that is not a hit the second one after this one yeah but uh seriously though if you guys want to ask

any questions about any of us you know please feel free to do that um as we go here um so we're again we're going to try to do this in the same type of format we're going to give a few updates i have an update on this guy that's joining ea which is driving me insane at this moment um wait so hold on so they told us explicitly no cursing but i'm going to try to get eric to curse i know it's going to be hard i'm going to frustrate him so much that he's going to scream the absolutely out okay and then we have like we're gonna do an update on our our favorite moments in istanbul yeah sure but then we're also gonna do three stories one is and i can't believe these jokers before us didn't say anything about this is that 625 million dollars was lost by the customer for the biggest game in crypto i might even bring these jokers back up here to like anyway they didn't mention it once they got to come and defend themselves yeah we're gonna mention uh in the past it happened yesterday oh that's right it's over so uh look forward we're gonna talk about the new playstation sub um announcement that sony did which was

much to do about nothing frankly but um we're gonna do it anyway and then i know what i do want to get everyone's opinion on the new all these apple things that are going on right i mean you kind of mentioned it in your thing because like you have the spotify thing you have the side loading thing you have like all these things like where does this all i've got breaking news today yeah all right so the first update i guess and sort of rant is i did a little bit of investigation last week we were talking about the fact that this uh mckenzie dude is joining ea as the vp of corporate strategy and he's had seven years in mackenzie in canada right and i'm not mentioning his name because i think that's mean but anybody can go look it up and figure it out quite close already do we need to actually just describe what mckenzie is as an entity just so we can see how disconnected it is from games i guess so i what i would say is that mckenzie is an amazing consulting firm that hires the best of the best the smartest people in the world frankly from the biggest best institutions in the world but this guy has never worked in gaming so i

went to go connect with him on linkedin and we have two connections two connections and i'm not the most popular guy honestly but at the end of the day the fact that this guy has absolutely no connection to the video game world and one of them is a fellow mckinsey yeah and one guy works at activision another douche from mckenzie right and so like exactly how is he qualified to be vp of corporate strategy product strategy mind you as far as i understand it at ea and so the reason this touch is really close to home is the fact that i was like almost the original strategy guy at ea back in the day when there was no strategy person right we were we were it was a small organization i'm og dude i was there at 98. right was john ceo then was that before john was before john was [Music] forgetting his name anyway the point is uh is that so after me it was like chris co and then there these al i know all the other guys that have done this strategy before and they're all people that would depth of experience in gaming and

gaming is a unique beast right it's a creative creative business that needs like context about what's going on you go through millions of platform transitions product transitions all that stuff without that context it's really hard to add value and so to put it more specifically like if this guy has some theory about what to do with fifa and he creates this huge deck about the strategy for fifa for the next 10 years he's going to go up to vancouver and these guys are going to be all we have been minting money for ea for the last decade you're not telling me jack [ __ ] about excuse my language there it is you can't tell me anything i don't know about this this this business so who are you right then that's one thing and the second thing and the more present thing right now is is is battlefield and and shooters ea is dying for a strategy in in in shooters so these guys are going to be integral at building a strategy for shooters and for battlefield so can you imagine this guy who has never worked in the video game industry coming up with some strategy that he's going to

pitch to vince sampela and vincent pella has been hitting nothing but net for 20 years in shooters like he's going to say what two words [ __ ] and off that's it i'm sorry google so anyway i don't really understand it didn't take that long like five minutes yeah you didn't have to prompt him even yeah but anyway the point is i just don't understand exactly how this fits within their their their ability to execute against strategy right and and it's driving me insane right now so maybe his role is different and and maybe he's focusing more on operations which i think mckenzie and bane and these guys are really really good at but they don't know anything about video games and and they've destroyed blizzard and and they've destroyed many other studios around and so like i think mckenzie basically is the destroyer of studios and i'm hoping that they don't continue to infiltrate and plague uh my in this industry but but what if like when you consider these consulting companies like mckinsey or bain or boston consulting

what not aren't they really good at sort of consolidating information and coming up with new strategies because they're just really good at acquiring the information like maybe he could bring something out of the left field or kind of bringing more macro view of things where the vincennes could make the decision based on that just pushing back a little bit no no i think there's like for for for crypto stuff and blockchain stuff maybe maybe you know bringing like kind of like the tabula rasa idea where it's like you know we're clean slate let's try to figure out how to penetrate this market still it's a creative industry right and you need creative people to think about ways of like making creative decisions on on these games and i don't think mckenzie and bain are really that's not their forte right i mean i think their forte is kind of like well like you and i discussed earlier downstairs this makes it a lot more palatable to me and to you if if this is true corporate strategy in terms of operations right structuring cost centers um you know operations outsourcing the the the the nuts and bolts of running the

business but staying out of the creative side i think would probably be the best advice to him yeah and exactly and i think that's what the downfall of blizzard was is that these guys were drop shipped in trying to make creative decisions on world of warcraft and diablo and stuff and they just blew it all up you know and so let's hope that doesn't like the big three they're really good at uh cost reduction right and that's you like mckenzie and bcg like they hire for a very specific type of person like kind of a conformist um who's got like a very impressive cv but that doesn't really deviate from like a kind of very specific uh kind of well-bounded uh sphere of operating right and and you oftentimes bring in those people because they look good they're very articulate um and they have impressive backgrounds and they're kind of there to uh package up an existing idea and and and make it uh uh you know present it as if it's like new research

or new thought but in actuality it's been like seeded into them by the sponsor of the consulting engagement right and so a lot of times it's cost reduction it's consolidating teams it's laying off teams um and it's like well okay mckinsey said we should do it and they're so smart look this guy came from harvard and this guy came from oxford or this woman came from oxford or whatever and we should really trust him and that's what they're great at but yeah any sort of creative input i wouldn't trust at all but by the way what you just described sounds more uh conducive to ea contracting with mckinsey to come out on a project basis or time basis right as opposed to having a full-time employee exactly and that's how they infiltrate right they do these projects they get themselves uh you know some of these vps our senior senior people get really enamored with these people and then they bring them in to destroy yeah and then they have they have the uh basically the uh the flight zone because usually somebody in the vp or c-suit position is from mckinsey yeah they trust mckinsey or whatever gaming company whatever consulting company they're for from and

through that they get much more weight than they would normally do right that's the really important part is that they have the uh the support from the top manager from a sponsor yeah exactly and then once they get in they spread like a fungus all right so uh the next update which we probably should have done first is favorite moment of istanbul so far since we've been doing that so i have to say um we did the turkish bass i had zero expectations and it was amazing and the best thing about it for me was the fact that i wasn't the palest guy in the room joseph joachim definitely kicked my butt in that department and i felt much better about myself i mean yeah when he was laid down on the marble they thought it was lit [Laughter] so anyway that was definitely my favorite moment but but it's been amazing and thanks google for all the uh hospitality while we are here how about you um interesting so i mean we we had so yesterday we kind of

had one day where we kind of tried to package everything in so we started out with the hamam's in the in the morning then we went to salt bay for for lunch then uh to the gym with eric and then um and then uh and the cruise in the in the evening so it was a packed day so huge thanks for google for arranging everything um i would say yeah hamam was definitely interesting experience because my perception from it was that we would be sitting in a bath and there'd be like a like almost like a steam room and it would smell like eucalyptus i don't know why i thought about eucalyptus but i thought it would smell like eucalyptus which makes no sense well most steam rooms in the west yeah but that's like an australian thing it's a us yeah but but uh it's not like that and then and i thought that it would be like a massage type of thing but actually they they wash you like like a baby yeah like the turkish man washed me really good and i mean like washed yeah it's like big hairy men scraping your skin off yeah everything it was i was thoroughly washed by a by a big turkish man so i it was uh like you guys clearly got the introduction yeah yeah

yeah so so when you're thinking about turkey like now this is the mental image and he slapped you hard yeah yeah no will smith slapped no real he was like yeah exactly like any chance to beat up an american i think that was one of those i tipped him to do that so that's that's what happened but um yeah it was uh it was interesting um oh it's really hard to pick we had a really beautiful cruise on the bosphorus last night that i enjoyed very much uh probably salt bae so far tonight we're going to taxi though so that's going to be a i would say an s show uh no i don't i don't know if we'll do that um yeah the software was really fun that was and the food was delicious no i mean just and then there's the whole show the theatrical component to it i will say that guy's an egomaniac yeah i've never been to a restaurant where the chef's image is just plastered all over the wall like wallpaper and like multiple ones like

everywhere like and his images are not like him working it's imposing maybe like it's fine if we do like shots from the uh from the kitchen and it's like here's me and in my new vegas restaurant it's like no i'm posing dude it's really really really really really really really really really really really good and i think it is absolutely clear the guys watched scarface way too many times because every pose was him like snarling you know all he needed was like a big like m80 gun and it was it was kind of like uh like the interior was kind of aggressive like like a 15 year old would have done it because there was like uh there's like images of like a like a spartan helmet yeah and like um like swords and the uh the the bathroom looked like um i don't know like a russian disc not to offend anybody in the room but like it was almost it was almost ridiculously turkish or it was like it was almost like a character it was a caricature of something but it it was hard turkish it was just like childish yeah i don't know it was weird it was a weird thing wow but it was the food you know what you meant to say there but that did not come out as i think you intended it to perhaps not yeah no okay but anyway it was it was a weird it's a

weird scene it was a weird scene at this restaurant who food was the food was amazing and they and the guys did a really good job um so my highlight thank you for asking you just came today yeah i know you guys like i mean you're like you're known as pasha petrovik here you know you're a lot of investors i'm gonna say something without trying to get overly emotional but i uh uh i excused myself from the festivities after dinner last night i actually went around town and walked down to the river and the reason why i did is because i realized when i would look back in my my memories of my social media that this was two years to the week um that we finalized our deal to acquire peak when i was in singa and uh a real special moment for for me for zynga especially for i think for peak and the turkish gaming ecosystem and it just gives me so much joy to have to have played a very little part in that and it was really cool to walk around where we actually had our our final dinner um with the team um before we signed on the dot or after we signed on the dotted line uh and just

pre-coded but uh yeah but that was pretty cool so uh this this place has a special place in my heart for that and unfortunately did not get a chance to do it subsequently um with with uh with rollick but for for gram and peak that was uh that was definitely a special time and especially that one that was a big big watershed moment for the industry and to have been played a part of that was pretty cool i actually have a question about that i heard a rumor here just downstairs this is uh crest was there that um that when the gram acquisition happened the rumor said that you didn't know that they didn't make the game themselves of course he knew yeah no we knew that the we we had to sign an employment agreement with uh with the designer yeah based in san francisco exactly who developed the game yeah so this is just cutting the uh the wings from the rumor that's not true he's definitely new because his former ea and all of our you know most of our leaders by the way it was like of course of course what are you talking about what kind of due diligence yeah what

here's your check oh by the way yeah can i tell a quick two quick stories so um i i worked closely with the gram team and uh and uh went so they um you know they were here and then they moved to london the leadership did but the stu well they created a studio in london too they moved a lot of the studio over some of the studio and a lot of them stayed here too so they have two studios and um i was living in london and they had actually offered me uh the cmo role and i turned it down because i loved the team there was something else i wanted to do and but i stayed in good in in close contact and i moved to london and they're like hey uh we bought this game why don't you help us think through like the go to market and help us build a team because we're gonna need a big team to launch this game and so i kind of came in at like interim cmono's going to the london office like three days a week and it was so it was all men that had moved right like single guy young single guys had moved like hey opportunity to move from you know who

wants to go and so that office was just like a frat house it was so they had a turkish chef who just cooked breakfast lunch and dinner and these guys showed up at like noon and stayed till like midnight every day just drinking and like playing video you know after hours hammersmith yeah and hammersmith yeah um and uh because khan's i think khan's dad owned the complex or whatever uh anyway um it was just like the most fun atmosphere and i was like this is the because uh graham had this really cool uh operating model where they just worked monday to thursday and then friday was just like a game jam every every friday and so they just like experimented they just built stuff and it was like i thought that was just like the most perfect environment i'd ever seen for making games because everyone was like i mean and this is not achievable right and if you scale this this doesn't scale that well and well but but everyone was like friends because they all moved over together right and they they hired local people after that but like everyone's friends they were all there by themselves they didn't know anybody and so they just hung out all the time uh played video games and talked about you

know cool video games that they could make and like a bunch of their i think their best games came out of that environment uh so other uh and we just we just and they always threw like awesome parties my wife was really close with them too so we just over we're always the office just like these big parties this place got trashed and then like didn't even get that cleaned up like the next day would show up and say what anyway uh and then second story so i was in istanbul like many years ago and sir dar the ceo of peak was like hey you're coming to istanbul like let's meet up like let's go to lunch and i want to show you the peak office and stuff i was i don't remember i was coming for i was coming to visit friends and so we go to this we go the peak office is amazing it's overlooking the river and then we go to this restaurant and uh we're eating and cerar was like he's just like you're blown away by his energy he's just such an energetic like frenetic guy like just just like this this this ball of just just uh just kinetic energy and so we're eating and and he's like hey let's walk back to the

i was down here let's walk back to the office it's a nice day out it's like beautiful weather let's walk back to the office uh we just had a big meal yeah sure so we walked like 10 feet in this taxi because all right taxi time it's like too slow boring all right any other i have other great stories to share but i don't know if this is maybe not maybe not a context appropriate all right on to the news stories okay all right here we go uh playstation sub so i know this is not relevant to free to play but it's something we have to cover generally because this is a big announcement so basically sony announces the fact that we have the plus essential the plus extra and the plus premium and the only thing remarkable about this announcement is how unremarkable it really is um because frankly they should consolidate into two this doesn't compete at all with xbox and i think the bigger thing here is that the this the sub has absolutely nothing to

do with streaming streaming is another footnote in the world of of these subscriptions for both microsoft and sony and so if i hear nuzu putting this in their number for streaming i am going to just just destroy them okay so because 99 of the value of these subs is going to be uh downloadable games it has nothing to do with streaming so let's make sure that nuzu does not and is listening does not put this in um anyway i think what i was i've been saying this a while is that sony is not going to compete directly against microsoft microsoft is in its own lane in terms of building a content subscription for new games sony is focused on building new games and selling them you know um ad hoc right or um a la carte and this sub is just a catalog sub that is meaningless really and and it's not gonna really change the dynamic of what microsoft is doing so anybody have any comments why do you think it doesn't compete with with xbox game pass because game pass is is a new game subscription they're not putting frontline games in there yeah that's a huge value prop when you're

paying i don't know what is 180 170 160 or something that's really really valuable to have all the new games coming from microsoft particularly given how many studios they own particularly with activision and bethesda and all that stuff what do you think's preventing them from taking that leap of going head-to-head because i've said a million times this business model doesn't work right you cannot make the numbers work on a subscription model right and and it's challenging for for sony compared to microsoft because for microsoft xbox is like what 10 of all the revenue yeah and for sony playstation is about 30 of all the revenue so it's much bigger of a business unit it's also probably 50 of the profit yeah and then like when i'm looking at it it's like a got a couple of notes it's like as you said they don't drop the new titles on the on the on the subscription which is different than with the microsoft so that's already huge they don't have the the one dollar priced entry point another uh pretty challenging thing and they don't have the pc skus which is which is really problematic because that's how i have the the pass because it's on my pc and then through that you

have an xbox or you're paying and the kind of questions there is like how do you keep basically the players on your subscription because that's what you're relying on to make that buck to make more than 70 to make that 140 what they would be paying off of two games because they have now would have to keep on paying for the full year and essentially it's like with any content business where you have to rely on new blockbuster releases just like with netflix or hbo and for for sony which is known for these amazing narrative driven games that are you know beautiful and quite expensive to make how are they gonna kind of battle that content treadmill because essentially they have to release now more of these games and they always have to break and you kind of have to have almost one every month because the core players will be well at least every second month and they have only now only one this sort of a game that can keep players for a longer time which is bungie because they don't have a lot of you know live service games that would be extending because i play pay for for example i pay for the xbox pass because

of fifa i mean you can you essentially pay play fifa throughout the year it's the kind of game you go back to there's some other ones that you can go back to because they're these long lifetime games i don't think sony has other than uh than bungie ones no i mean and or the bungie one right and i don't think sony's gonna have any live service games but what do you think why why are companies doing that like what do you think why why do you think sony's making this move if it's so difficult to no but they're not that's what the whole point is they're not making this move they're not doing a paid subscription for new content they're getting doing a paid subscription they're basically extending playstation plus so that it it includes catalog like a back catalog page not new games but but in the but your point still stands about yeah filling the funnel with new games yeah exactly higher cadence so how many developers the developer sony are still independent or you know that could be acquired none right there i mean they're hardly anything even less no no they're they're crazy more m a but i don't even know if that's possible yeah and that's why they've been invested like haven was the latest

acquisition that had already sort of a live service model but but just looking at this let's say seven years in the future at least five years in the future kind of when we're thinking about the next iteration of the consoles like will there be one or would it be cloud-based and if it's cloud-based then you kind of have to have a subscription model so i think i think strategically this is the right move the question is like are they taking the move like do they have to take it too fast now where they don't yet have the content to fill up but eventually i mean somebody has amazing content like these games like like uncharted a god of war all these games are blockbusters all these games like are the ones that you would want to play that justify definitely the subscription price the question is are there enough of those and how they can go to a place where where there's a little bit more lifetime for each of these games because currently they they they don't have you know the the end game essentially yeah i think it's also i think there's a good point like just kind of laying the groundwork for like the streaming future but post post hardware future but uh

the other thing is like sony already has a subscription like this is not an introduction of a subscription this playstation plus like basically if you have a place you have to purchase playstation plus because it's the only way to play multiplayer games right it's just it's just a cost it's just like an added tax on being a playstation owner this is just stratifying the the catalog of of options right and this is and one of the upgrades right is the streaming and then i don't remember what the top tier offers above no that is that is the top tier mid tier is just a catalog of of of old games and then right the the super tier is streaming as well as more right of older games yeah but but i think it will be competing with with xbox eventually no no i a little bit confused so the reason it's not competing with with microsoft is it's not new games right so like when god of war comes out it's not part of the subscription when the next uh last of us are uncharted is coming it's not part of the subscription all it is

is catalog games so it's games that people don't play anymore so and they as far as i understand it at least in the next 10 years they're not going to be building a subscription that that has new games because they just can't do it i still want to say xbox wasn't like a slam dunk off the off the bat well because they didn't have enough content well exactly so now they do view sony also from this perspective is like they are kind of where xbox or microsoft was a couple of years ago and they ramped up again microsoft could give a sh i said microsoft does not care about the mice nuts that is that is revenue from this this gaming division right it's all about building subscriptions right and so they can it can be a loss leader for them forever because they make so much money right sony can't do that it's like 50 of their profits is from so they are stuck right they are stuck and i talk to so many people all the time and they're just like they hate what microsoft is doing because they just can't compete and they're undervaluing the market so in theory they should gain lose shares sony should lose share for for for the next is this subsequent thing bad thing for developers or a good

thing it doesn't matter because it's catalog are you saying yeah the topic microsoft oh it's horrible oh it's horrible yeah i i the longer term implications for the industry are horrific in the sense that it devalues content for one thing it de-incentivized people to make games that are competing directly with microsoft's games so like building an epic rpg actually that's not a good example if if if uh call of duty is released for exclusively at microsoft uh microsoft's platforms then why would anyone ever make a shooter for microsoft platforms because you're competing directly against something that's part of the subscription stuff like that and so it creates real perverse incentives from a development perspective and and and i worry maybe that could be sony's ace in the hole right the they'll say we're the developer friendly platform yeah that's possible and you can't be i'm sorry it can be really a third-party developer either on this one because no if the platform holder already has invested a lot in their own content right what are they going to promote when you open up the xbox pass or when you open up a place what's going to be on the top front page is it going to be

their own game or is it going to be your game yeah exactly the subs are yeah they are tough for developers because like it's just a race to the bottom a and b like you end up in this weird middle ground where okay your game goes up like heavily discounted or free so you get a lot of dnu but the console audience is not very receptive to dlc into iaps and or ads outright is a great example they they really got like a super high dau and they just but you can't do you can't do anything with it so it's just like wasted dau it's really hard to utilize that and monetize that like i work in that sphere uh on some projects and like we're trying to do innovative stuff but then the platform owners also have a lot of control right like if you think about apple being closed ecosystem that's you know heavily with like sort of like heavy input from the platform owner xbox and playstation or you know even sort of more of a closed environment and it's really tough to do innovative stuff and you just you're never going to get like a full information implementation of free to play on console i think there's like some asymptote that you hit that's like some weird hybrid version of

console free to play and it's kind of like a worst of both worlds kind of thing um but it's great for the platform owners right yeah and the last point we'll make on this we'll move on but to be clear this is a great value prop for the customer like there's no doubt that the subscription for microsoft is a really highly valued product from the customer's perspective customers don't lose in this scenario because they're kind of battling it out but longer term customers could lose in terms of of options and choices in terms of content that's what my worry is um all right the next one i mean this is a huge story and it seemed to be buried but i think it's getting more and more coverage right now is that the biggest game in crypto the biggest success story in crypto just got built the customers of this game got built for 625 million dollars right i mean it's a disaster like that absolute fiasco that these this this platform that is supposed to have the most secure system in the world because of the blockchain has now been ripped off for 625 million dollars and

so any other company in this planet would have been destroyed by this news but maven i think it's just going to move on right and so it absolutely blows my mind and and why this crypto market is is so insane in a lot of ways and and and will continue to be insane because i'm sure they're going to be unscathed and do another like billion dollar round in the next six months you know but um i i'm not i am not no expert on this stuff obviously but what i would say is that like some of the people that are around here were basically saying that this is likely an inside job right where the only way that they could have actually probably done this is from someone that worked at maven they said i mean they the the ceo said like explicitly it wasn't they don't they don't think it is well i i think they they have like a reported from his yacht yeah exactly they had like six days to spin as much as they could on this thing you know and and and that's what people do right they get pr firms that are just like hired just to handle this [ __ ] damn again

i don't keep cursing anyway so who's keeping track by that i know seriously um so anyway i i am very concerned about like no sorry people should be concerned about this and and and i'm sure it'll get more coverage i would hope that there's like some kind of like oversight or some kind of like someone's held accountable for this this kind of thing so what happens like what what i can give a high level overview or chris do you feel more comfortable no all right so but so they have a basically a bridge that got hacked right so they have the uh you know there's ethereum which people have is a crypto currency right and there's a bridge which allows them to convert ethereum to the sort of native coin for uh ronin for um for axi right so ronin is the blockchain and i think the coin's name is ronin two right so you convert

your ethereum to ronin via this bridge right in the bridge um you know it's it's basically it's it's what they did was they kind of cut corners right so instead of using uh a proof of work uh formulation uh for sort of proving the authenticity of the transactions which is very energy intensive right so it's cost more to maintain they use a proof of stake right and they only had a couple of these nodes right so i'm assuming like a node is just a server right and so these nodes have to sort of like all in unison uh authenticate the transactions and what happens though is you know basically like a 50 attack right so if they control more than 50 of the nodes then they there's basically almost like a man in the middle they control the authen uh the the authentication of the transactions and so if you they had like eight nodes or six nodes or maybe it was eight i don't remember but there was some very small number of nodes because they were remember they were trying to save money and so someone took control of four of them or whatever some majority of them and then they were basically able to sort of authenticate all the transactions themselves and so they took

basically just took all the money out of uh off of this uh proprietary blockchain ronin which was held in ethereum and then um and then some stable coin pegged to the us dollar right so like 600 million of it was an ethereum and then 25 million was in this uh the stable coin and a lot of that came from the actually treasury too but then a lot of that was uh you know player money it was player because that the money was held there uh to sort of backstop the ethereum was held there to backstop the axi uh currency and then they could if they wanted to pull it back out it got traded back to ethereum and they pulled it back to their wallet right um and so there's a couple things one is they they cut corners right and apparently they had actually uh rebuilt the system or shifted it over to a proof of work system but they never had uh deactivated the old system right so the old system still had like keys uh to access the the blockchain and so that was that was just an oversight um and then uh they've said that they're gonna fully reimburse everyone that lost

money the problem and i saw some really sad story yesterday it was like some family had their life savings in this currency they lost all who what family has their life savings yeah what [ __ ] would they want the southeast asia well it could be like a filipino family right now okay got it you know they were all sort of they went all in yeah but anyway some dirty business where are those guys they're ducking the heat man but so they've said they're gonna they're gonna fully reimburse everyone but the only way to do that is to either get a vote right to use treasury funds to do that or to sell equity right so they've got to raise this money or pull it out of their treasury through a vote right in order to do that so that i mean that's that's a big problem right i mean if they have to sell a part of their company in order to pay the customers back because their funds got stolen i mean that's a that's a that's a massive it's just exposing this massive vulnerability these types of games and like what eric and i have talked about and i'd love to get your opinion on this chris is like my when i was at gdc it

was pretty clear that there's a second wave of these crypto games that are coming they're better designed they have sort of better economies they're actually you know there's there's more of like a game design game design sensibility to them rather than like a weekend hobby project that just blew up right um and and those seem like okay if there's a future for web3 games that's it it's the second wave of games where they're you know there was time spent and there was thought you know invested into building these economies the first wave is kind of poisoning the well for the second wave right if customers like no way am i playing a web 3 game i read this news article that people lost their life savings because this got hacked because the game designers who are not accountable for anything took a shortcut like how do i know that that's not going to happen with this other game that i play it really is causing problems for the ecosystem yeah and i just thought about this like you know the comparable story back when free to play was like coming up was like a kid spend like two thousand dollars right on like some stupid childhood right now we're talking about 625 million let me also um ask eric if the way you just described the the

infiltration how much of that is specific to the the the way that web 3 protocols and security is set up versus this just sounded like a server hack that could have happened to any of us right it wasn't necessarily web3 specific in terms of you didn't go into a secure ledger and pull things off this was just literally sitting in an unprotected server right these digital assets not in any more of an encrypted way than than you know most data sits right well yeah but that's that's the difference so like when there's a data breach for a web 3 gaming company it's real dollars that could be diluted versus oh some personal data or whatever right it's because you know the the the effect of centralization is is that you get these well systems that in theory should be sort of like more secure right right because you've got a bank doing it that's that's spent years investing in security or whatever or a credit card company or apple or google right but all that stuff it's still it's the the the chain of custody of the money still goes like a financial institution which is you know governed by regulation which has had decades of

time to build security right versus like this company is essentially a financial institution and they cut corners on state they admitted that we cut corners on security because we don't have enough people we don't really have the expertise we're a small company this blew up it took us by surprise right and so like that's just that's to me that's that's a difficult uh that's a difficult position to be in is to entrust startups essentially with the responsibility of a financial institution this is what makes the case for when you're talking about next wave of of games and i think many companies including the ones you probably talked to last week when they talk about making the next wave they're talking about making games eventually whether it's the next wave or the wave after for the mass market right right and that's why the bull case for removing cryptocurrency as a currency layer and just defaulting to fiat currency is strong right because you have a currency methodology that the mass market user understands yeah and the security and protection of institutions that are built purpose built to prevent this from happening yeah right you can still buy and sell nfts and and exact digital ownership but

you don't need this artificial crypto layer of ronin currency that doesn't mean anything to my mom or your mom or your uncle valuation changes also right so this makes the case for it and and the audience that this next wave is developing games for is not the current audience so i think there's going to be a disconnect on that front as well right is this the end of axi oh i don't think so i mean they're launching the new game right they said they're going to launch it again they didn't delay the launch of the new game at all no i think so how much did they raise on the last round but was quite significant oh i don't remember it was a lot hundreds if not but shareholder lawsuits i mean something like yeah you know like this is this isn't really serious yeah this is serious is it 625 and then just given that that was a raise along like a while back based on certain representations exactly and they had the resources to make like to make the type of game that they were making is not 100 million dollar game like let's be honest let's be really honest especially out of vietnam right so you had the resources to fix these things that you clearly knew weren't done properly so it like

will any heads roll like i mean it has to has to right you think i imagine if apple or google lost 600 million of our revenue if any company would be a scandal it'd be a scandal there'd be there'd be testimony in congress yes the ceo would have to go no but the thing is okay two things this follows a 300 million dollar hack last month yeah it's been a billion so far right and then second they knew about this on march 23rd this happened on march 23rd we found out about it yesterday what happened in that intervening week did they not know about it if they didn't know about it for week then that really is a scandal yeah if they did know about it they have pr and legal people in a room trying to figure out what to do that's nuts anyway that lends us to the last story before we uh conclude is speaking of uh closed ecosystems that i throw a lot of shade on apple um so apple seems to be losing losing battles and likely losing the war right you have a spotify doing a deal you have like side loading

things like regulations are coming down it feels like things are changing for apple and we know that you know fingerprinting blocking is coming and all this other stuff so i guess the question for you all is i think i know what's going to happen but i i may be mistaken i don't know but what is going to happen with apple this year or the next two years from this regulation perspective are we going to reduce the fee to 15 which is what a lot of people are telling me that that might happen um i mean are they going to have to be required to open up the platform to third party i think there should be a cap on the fee like a dollar value like once you pay like i don't know 10 million it's like a royalty card that's that's it for the year like no more yeah yeah that makes sense that's probably easier to institute of course without getting technical like what do you think is going to happen let me break some news some big breaking news this happened late last night u.s time um so uh

did anybody see my meme video that i made with the uh the mexican guy and you superimposed the words on the bottom he's laughing i did let's go to the tape no no i was going to play in my presentation like four minutes long it would have eaten up into it no one saw that somebody raised your hand tonight it's got a lot of people got a lot of views on youtube anyway so and i talked a little bit about the presentation but basically the dutch competition authority and they're they're the thing is like there's been these sort of like uh domino falling dynamic of like specific countries intervening with their competition authorities saying hey look what you're doing with um you know payments uh uh control uh in your platforms to both google and and and apple um is not consistent with our sort of competition uh laws and so you have to open it up right does that happen south korea that was kind of aimed at google but it applied to apple um it happened in japan with the reader apps which which apple kind of complied with globally

and then it happened in the netherlands and the dutch competition authority said look they originally scoped it for all the app store they said you can't only uh you can't only allow app developers to use itunes payments you got to allow alternative payments and then for whatever reason over the course like two years of investigating this they scoped it specifically to dating apps right so they said hey apple you've got to allow dating apps to offer alternative payments um which makes zero sense by the way but yeah it would happen i think it was a dating app that brought it to the company anyway so apple said okay fine we'll comply with that but if you want to use an alternative payments app you've got to first of all you've got to institute this two entitlements right you can only have itunes payments or your alternative payment in your app you can't have both side by side and you've got to submit a separate bundle a separate app bundle that just for the netherlands store that that that utilizes these entitlements so like no developer in the right mind is going to maintain a separate a second bundle for the netherlands market right

it's just not going to happen right so like basically they set so many and you have to have to have this pop-up modal that that is really scary it's just like the att prompt it says hey this developer wants to use alternative payments in their app those are not secured by apple be careful like no one's going to click through that right so they imposed so many you know restrictions on this that no developer was ever going to you know actually uh uh do that and and the dutch competition authorities said hey uh you're breaking the law and we're going to charge you five million euros a week um until you comply and so apple left that char up up to like 50 million euros and so as of right now that the total aggregate charge is 55 million dollars to apple which apple is nothing yeah right and so last night they said okay we're going to soften our stance here because i think they're getting close to the limit of the feet and they said we're going to change the wording on the modal it's a little bit softer and we're going to get rid of the second uh the app the the standalone app bundle

requirement right now okay you say who cares dating apps in the netherlands like you know uh everyone there is inbred anyway then anyway bad joke but why should i care this is you know very limited relevance here but you know about dating apps so that that's probably a bellwether for how they're going to approach this globally right they're going to be forced to do it globally so they're kind of softening their stance a little bit uh which to me is significant because um you know two days ago they announced that uh they they they they are now going to allow reader apps globally to link to like account management stuff on the web right so they're very slowly sort of like softening their stance on this stuff which to me uh you know sort of is a signal that they're sort of reading the tea leaves and they probably can't delay this too much longer i think if it happens country by country they can deal with that and it's actually more of an

imposition on developers but if the eu does move forward with the digital markets act which i think they will well that's eu wide right and so then it's kind of game over you might as well just go worldwide with it and then the us has the open app markets act which is is institute some similar restrictions or regulations on uh the way app stores operate so i think they they see which way the wind is blowing and they're getting ready for like a future where they don't have total control over payments now the google thing with spotify is interesting because google reduced the subscription fee from year one so remember google it was 30 year one fifteen percent year two and on for subs which is spotify right uh but they reduced that last year to fifteen percent from the very get-go which is so playing with apple which is in line with apples when apple is still 30 year one not not for like hbo and spotify they have different deals you mean they've like carved they have specific one-to-one deals yeah they don't they don't pay that's interesting well that could be true yeah well that was that was actually rumored with amazon allowed prime to be subscribed to

in the app and there was a rumor that they had a deal that was just 50 but i don't think spotify then why would spotify agree to this partnership with google if it was 15 right it's got to be less yeah so i mean spot to my mind spotify's probably not doing this if it's more than 10. right so i think 10 feels like a number that could be reasonable that most people say hey great you know uh there should be a cap i even think look i mean we we've hypothesized about this as an industry for a long time i know you and i when we work together kabam talked about this which is hey which of the two platforms is going to jump first in in in you know in in full and then b what is this what does a good state look like for our industry and i feel like i don't want to speak for all of us in the room but i've talked to enough people in the industry i feel like if we all woke up tomorrow and found out that google and apple together said our new fee is 15 yeah and all the legal stuff goes away and i think as an industry we'd be fine yeah right i mean doesn't that feel like it would just clean the slate of all this mess and disjointedness and fragmentations happening country by country and lawsuits and platforms like

it just and and to your point earlier about microsoft like these companies are so big that have 50 reduction in their in their feed like should be mice nuts to quote you right like a hundred percent right and and then what what prevents it from happening i guess what the heck would we talk about then it would be so boring but would everybody here in the room be okay with fifteen percent yeah everything's fifty fifteen number ten from apple and google yeah and then the more money goes to advertising platforms yeah but because they're making the money by virtue of the privacy stuff it's win-win for them and then they get more friendly with developers again and yeah it's just strange to me well until until people get sick of 15 and they want it to be 10 right like i remember but we signed a collective bargaining agreement saying we won't sue you for 10 years yeah yeah when i was at when i was at duchalk there was like this this guy who is like early uh j2me right and he said that he was at the uh the wwc 20 2007 i guess when steve jobs introduced the app store and he was like and the fee for a developer is going to be 30 and everyone's like yeah because it

takes me it was like 80 platforms yeah the carriers or they got or they just got like a developer take right they got a fee right so like they were excited about thirty percent sorry free smartphone right yeah it was 50 50 with 18 t and all those other yeah that's right like 600 skus is unbelievable but what so i guess the big question is what prevents them from pulling off this band-aid and just doing it i think there's a team of accountants at apple that says look if we can drag this out for five more years we make 10 billion dollars or 20 billion you know what i mean like there's just a dollar amount that they've got there that's big enough for people for the parent company to care because i don't know from a financial perspective i mean from a i didn't introduce myself i just realized this up there all this time but you don't need me no i guess not but from a stock perspective their whole story has been going from a 15 times multiple to like a 25 30 times multiple on the idea that they're building a digital services model right a sas type model with with all their different services and they're just leaning in on that so much and like by reducing it but look at how much you guys were showing earlier how much their ad their take of the ad money has has grown yeah

yeah 300 that makes up for it and more right yeah well maybe i mean it's 4 billion is still pretty small for apple the thing the big elephant in the room with att is that google search has a total complete carve out from att right you go on on chrome or safari you load up google.com the google employees are leaving because they they legally cannot be here for this no but you go to google.com you do a search now they're running well they started running oh they got the cops now though you go you do a search there's no att uh imposition there and in the app or on the web on the web but in an app in the chrome's chrome app is an app that's right uh safari is an app yeah uh or if you do it from the left screen right that's estimated to be 20 billion dollars this fiscal year that's 40 of services revenue 4 billion yeah that's fine we'll take it but 20 billion all ebit no work involved there's no staff that manages that maybe there's like one bd guy who

banks his bonus every year retreats to bora bora hey we're still on google yes all right see ya pj's waiting um but yeah anyway so that's i think that's the elf in the room but like yeah maybe the ad stuff makes up for some of that but i think the other the other thing here is like i wrote a post about this like the app store is a game store right all the subscription apps they were getting around this anyway they were doing you know it was like wink wink we've got an app but we don't ask you to sign up there you can do it on the web well everyone knew to sign up on netflix.com spotify.com hbo.com whatever they weren't making any money from those companies anyway it was all games the epic uh lawsuit brought all this out seventy percent of the absolute revenue comes from games the rest of the counting ad revenue by the way yeah yeah no transaction revenue right yeah the iep revenue because they don't they don't get a taste of the ad revenue unless it's asa right so uh like if you know if you're buying through them they get revenue right right exactly if you buy their app but so the thing is like i think all they really need to do they can give away all these concessions to spotify and whoever because they weren't paying anyway it was just kind of

annoying it was annoying that we can't let you register in the in the in the app it's okay we'll pay you we'll pay you 10 percent uh it's a lot to allow in the app versus the zero we were paying before all through the web because we'll probably it'll probably net out to you know an increase price they just need to make sure that game developers keep paying and i don't know that collectively game developers have enough of a voice to push back on apple so i think if they gave away everything else but games and kept ieps at 30 percent then they haven't is they're cutting sleeves off a vest which is not a bad mental image right because there are no sleeves all right is that our live twig are we done yeah broke some news not not really it's like 10 hours q a yeah q any questions out there from anybody about anything we have my here we go the first q a ever for twig right yeah amazing who's going to be the first person oh my gosh

the first question in the history of twig right there where's the bathroom that guy's an nft where's the bathroom yeah this is rock welcome to istanbul again i don't know how many times have you heard this but welcome so i follow your podcast and your kim's also uh while you are the palest guy in the room yeah he met with him and so i listen to your podcast when i go to work at in the morning so my question is what do you think about uh the web3 games blockchain games in terms of them bypassing most of the things you just talked about like in terms of apple and other platforms cutting all of a lot of fees but actually blockchain games in a way bypass those problems so do you think is that a value proposition in that way or uh yeah i have a strong opinion about

that because i think that's one of the things that is not really spoken about at this stage in web 3 which is the primary platform in which these through which these games get played which is a platform that's not a high growth platform yeah right pc gaming people that play games on their pc this isn't all of a sudden leaning into a high growth market and it's probably going to compete with people that are already playing games on their pc and then if it's more casual trying to bring people back to pc for mobile i know that there are companion apps that are out there and i think those will get more increasingly scrutinized as they try to to be more transactional if it stays like what you say which is just it's a it's a companion app where you consume content but you don't actually transact that's fine but i think that's also gonna going to be a growth challenge um which is going to limit the number of genres of the types of genres i think they're going to be that this next wave of game companies are making games for because we have to remember the current audience right now is not playing they're not playing they're gamifying investments or they're gamifying work yes right through a game interface exactly so um but i think

i think issues aside i think it's just going to be somewhat of a limitation unless you take the bulk case and believe that these games will be like roblox right which is the consumption happens on mobile maybe some monetization but then you have a lot of the the heavy lifting that's done on the pc side but i think the fact that it's pc centric just kind of limits the growth story in my mind yeah and i'll i'll just layer on my thoughts there is like when we were doing going from aaa to free to play on mobile in 2000 what 1009 whatever we were looking at total addressable market of seven billion people right because we knew even then that smartphones were going to take off right it was pretty obvious that ultimately everyone was gonna have a smartphone feature phones were already there right so just replacing it it was a yeah it was a replacement thing it was just how long it would it take as opposed to so i think that's the biggest challenge i think with blockchain in general is that you're basically dealing with i mean i don't know what the number is maybe the number of people with wallets or whatever two million wallets so it's like and how is that going to grow over what is the tam for the next

like five years 10 years 15 20 years you know so you just can't do that hockey stick um at the same scale so difficult to get into a blockchain game it's it's almost impossible but just even assume that all that difficulty gets removed right yeah we're asking people to come back to pc games exempting the steam players right because those people are not likely going to be into these games so they're asking the mass market to come back to pc i don't i don't i don't know what where i mean i think it's going to be those niche genres now of course the blockchain guys these vc's over here probably you know saying how do you feel about it yeah i think it was a great answer uh but um what about can i ask you another question yeah you're going there yeah you got the first question so you get you got the mic you're in control now where's the bathroom i have also questions about blockchain gaming actually i i'm a founder of hyper-casual gaming studio which was

actually acquired by rolex so we do hyper casual like if we had a blockchain game that like the those the our players had governance tokens they would i think vote to like remove ads so i think there's really many problems in uh governing the games by the players because like you are more more experienced than i am i'm like 24 years old in the in the industry like game design is a profession so like adding stuff just by watching i don't know how it's going to work that way so do you think there will be like the main glamorous concept behind blockchain is like decentralization in a way so do you think um is it going to really be decentralized this market or it's going to be again monopolies like apple wow i think decentralization definition will mean not so much what you get to decide but what the game maker asks you to answer if that makes sense so instead of having

complete democracy over every decision it's going to be a filtered number of decisions that you're asked to participate in which is how democracy works right maybe it's not direct democracy yeah but does that make sense because i think at the end of the day there still needs to be some centrality to the the creative process otherwise there'd be nothing done and many of these companies that these these customers are playing in or will play in are are backed by outside investors that need a return right so you that's not how you can run any business by by asking a thousand or ten thousand or a million people for their votes on everything so i think it will be user feedback but i think it's going to be curated if that makes sense so usually you're 24 and and you've had a company be acquired yeah you're smarter than us congrats man yeah what do you think yeah what are we doing up here and you found a great home by the way thanks anybody else

hi i'm yuri strawberry games a more traditional question with the third party stars app stores coming site loading coming to the app store google do you think the third party app store is going to be commoditized and that will be new channels for app distribution are they going to be anything meaningful sizable third you're talking about third party app third-party app stores exactly i think that's a question that's been asked and answered for many years now yeah right i think microsoft tried it amazon tried it samsung's trying it huawei's trying it i think that it's really all just the penetration of the devices in my mind and the habituation of consumers about what they're used to going to so as long as google play is the default store on android phones and as long as apple is the closed ecosystem i just don't see right eric i mean yeah that's i mean i wrote this piece a while back is app store regulation too little too late and it's like the

default status is so powerful yeah like that needed to be nipped in the bud early but it hasn't been and so people are just used to well app stores on the phone and i got my credit card in there why would it because the process of adopting a new app store means i got to download it somehow will apple allow that within the app store probably not so i got to go to like a website download something or there's they'll make it very complex and convoluted then i got to put my credit card information in there and then i've got to believe that this is all secure right and like what's like well i use apple pay to buy coffee every day right they've got my credit card it's pretty convenient two clicks and you're doing right so it's like why would i deviate from that norm that my personal norm right i wonder how many use like samsung store like i have samsung phone and i've had you know previously like what is the reason why i would open up the same looking store with the same items except some of them have like there's like samsung pay it's like why would i use that over google play yeah well i think the the what i look to for guidance here is like epic did side loading on android right they were they they took this like

ideological stance like we're not going to we've got to go through the app store and on ios but on google on android we're going to just have a side loaded downloaded app and they relented after a little while it was a disaster it was first of all it was rife with fraud there was a lot of fraud there's fake fortnite apps and then they just they went to google play anyways that's where you got to go so android has this android allows for side loading they allow for alternative app stores and this everyone still goes to google play there are markets obviously china being the most prominent where there are alternative app stores and that's just more force of regulation right there are other emerging markets where google play has not yet does not have a yet of a footprint yeah but i think that's just a matter of time right right that's not just not an if it's a when you know all right last question anybody else gentleman over here with a scarf mr burberry i know is he wearing burberry is that a burberry is that a burberry yes it is okay all right

maybe you should be coming up here too right [Laughter] you're 23 and you sold your company too you look younger what's going on over here okay go luckily in a few years i haven't yet but i'm the co-founder and ceo of veloxia so we were speaking with dean takashi in venture beats early february about how developers can break through the app store it's probably a little easier to speak about google play and there are already tons of ways to break through the google play regulations because of the apk situation the os being more relaxed let's say but i feel like in the upcoming feature both developers and also users are going to be putting so much pressure on app store that something's going to have to change on that side as well if not by these two what the judge said at the end of the case with the fortnight uh was clearly indicating that things can evolve over the time i personally firmly believe that there's going to be overnight success when the gaming native developers

actually enter into the scheme because like you guys said at some point uh the current play to earn games are just investment schemas with different uh gamification approaches to them uh would you agree apple will have to change things due to the pressure or what are your thoughts on this yeah i mean i've been talking about this for so long on the podcast that and i'm obviously very hyperbolic about it but like ultimately what will happen is it's all pr for apple right so and once they get enough p bad pr worldwide or they have regulations mounting and and and they think that the risk to their business is more than the reward of what of of the owning the app store or charging 30 that's when they change they are capitalists like apple is evil in that sense like they are a pure capitalist all they do is their goal is to sell phones they could give a [ __ ] about their customers they don't care about their publisher partners they are evil right and so

ultimately when that becomes unsustainable for them that's when they will change their ways right and and the more more people i talked that worked at apple or or are familiar with how apple operates that just seems to be the most obvious answer is it it's just when it's too painful for them to continue so i think we're getting to that point though i mean it feels much more like the wagons have been circling for so long there's so much pressure from different places litigation the u.s litigation in europe you know side loading spotify like all these things are happening building up to a point in which they just have to relent you know and and be more consumer and publisher friendly right well maybe not even them if google relents then apple has to follow suit right yeah they've got to walk they've got to walk in lockstep sorry i gotta stand my back is hurting oh just old people what's that it was old yeah we stood in order of age right yeah so i i really do hope that apple starts to um you know treat publishers and customers better i just it

won't be overnight that's right yeah yeah and and again as i said many times in the podcast it's like they're optimizing against their bottom line right they're selling a ton of phones and they're doing that by doing a marketing message if you go to in san francisco on 280 it's like privacy privacy privacy apple apple apple right like that sells phones right and so as long as they're tooting that doing the pr and and making these efforts then you know yeah regular people really like that like the privacy cell i've been talking to like just randomly like yeah i have this because it's like more more secure than the android it's like but for us being in the game industry you probably like it more right yeah yeah we're conflicted there i like it for my daughter but not for my business yes yeah that's why you have two phones all right with that at least i threw some shade on apple before we left thank you to telford for allowing me to to apply his seat yes and again thanks to google for all the yes yeah thank you guys for coming thank you all yeah thank you for staying we'll see you guys next week on twitch

have a nice night thank you [Music]