The 84% Problem: What Bad Ads Are Costing Game Publishers

[Music] hello world welcome back to the bucket gamer podcast with your host me Brian Bago and the always wonderful frequently jet setting Archbishop of advertising the awesome Peggy and Sals hello Peggy how are you I am well Brian and this time you're jet setting right you are out and about you can tell me in a moment I'm on my way to roio con so yes I am jet setting again but you where are you so I'm currently sitting in the ark which is the advanced Research Center at the University of Glasgow um in the historic 800 year old or thereabouts campus in the city center uh I'm running a cross-party group today which brings together MP msps a bigger paron from the Scottish Parliament to discuss uh the changes and strategy that I'm writing for Scotland's national games strategy

so this is a little added bonus um I'm suited I'm booted I'm running on caffeine and uh I'm delighted to see you again I am delighted to see you and I love the fact that you are leading the charge there Brian absolutely and it brings me actually to our show because we had so much reaction to the last time we looked at how bad ads are basically bad for business right we want to have a flourishing mobile gaming ecosystem so we need to look at all the players all the stakeholders and that brings us to Today's Show because we have a survey to Deep dive into I'll start off with one of the stats for you right a staggering 84% of players uninstall games due to disruptive or poorly placed ads as well as perhaps I should say deceptive creative so yes bad ads don't just damage your game's reputation they hit

your bottom line oh yeah I mean we we saw the uh the reaction from people we've heard from so many people who who you know this this strikes home really hard and so that's why today's episode's so important we're going to dive into app Harbor's latest report which pulls back the curtain on what players of all kinds really think about in-game advertising and how it impacts their experience with the game and I have to say I found it Jam packed with really actionable practical insights that can help developers Publishers turn their ads from churn drivers into playar retention tools absolutely and of course you know lifting the lid on this critical topic it's the only survey of its kind not just another survey it's a data driven look survey of players looking at the ad experiences players want and of course the ones that will drive them away well this is the thing pigy you know we hear from almost

everybody that we talk to on this show that it's all about the player experience it's all about keeping them happy keeping them on side making sure they're they're looked after um and players who are annoyed by ads aren't just annoyed they're leaving and that's Revenue just walking out the door not just leaving the app but um also overall loyalty there's some numbers there's some data in there around this so actually it comes down to fixing it fixing it is on the agenda for 2 so um maybe we just uh look at a couple of highlights Brian I mean we've been both reading the report it just came out very recently what are some of the key takeaways for you for me it was it was very well structured and it's it really kind of highlighted what players want you know so what is it that you need to give your your Gamers out there and it report the report highlighted three key areas relevance timing and the quality of the ads so first of all relevant

players completely clear they don't mind ads if they feel targeted and aligned to their interests but the moment an ads feels random or worse yet spammy it's game over I'll side with you and to dub toil with timing I thought timing was really important because makes sense right you're you're in games yourself you hate being interrupted during gameplay moments and ads that show up in the middle of that are frustrating again this is not rocket science we do know this Brian but now we have some data to back it up and then there's a quality one I was thinking of you because I remember during the show that we had with app Harbor when we going through this you know um bad ads and you have of course your young son so it's not just bad Graphics it's bad content oh absolutely you know it's there's nothing worse than I I try very hard to be uh you know a pro digital parent I don't believe old screen time is bad screen time but when you've carefully collect accurated and know downloaded games that

you want to play with your with your child and then all of a sudden an ad comes screaming in that's completely inappropriate can have offensive content or just be flat out wrong deceptive um it's not just bad for me it's not just bad for my son but it it's bad all around there are ways to fix it I mean um and they give you some tips as well you know first you have to monitor your ad Partners closely even make a couple more calls or slack chats or something to make certain that the ads that they're running are the ones that meet your standards so there's a little bit of policing there controlling the timing right um use tools to ensure ads appear during where they should be right the natural pauses in the game playay and uh the other lastly you know just work on Creative quality work with ad Partners to understand your audience and deliver the ads that align with your game's tone your game style you know it is your brain brand you need to protect it

you're you're absolutely right Peggy you know it it's you wouldn't leave a huge big gap a space in the middle of your you know Precious Precious game that you've poured time and money and resources and passion into and let just anybody you know plaster content in there of whatever kind you wouldn't give some random stranger access to your social media channels so why would you leave that kind of space and those kind of gaps in the game and for me the big takeaway was that if as a developer as a publisher you're not managing your ads you're missing a huge opportunity and absolutely risking your player base absolutely with you 100% on this one Brian and of course you know we have the show notes we have details about the report not just the report though I took this out to the streets as you would expect at an event this time I was in London for the last gamees for show and I went up and found you know Publishers Studios companies in the ecosystem asked them what they thought about the problem

of bad ads and I've got some clips for you as well Brian I knew we could count on you Peggy let's take a [Music] look admon is a concern what are your clients saying and why are they perhaps focusing on this now more than before so I would say that the tactics that um both advertisers and networks are like um are using uh for promoting um different apps um are being more aggressive than before and I think that um as Publishers are feeling that and uh players are complaining about certain techniques that networks and advertisers are U using and so I think that's what's bringing the focus of Publishers on ad quality and how can be how they can be in more control uh and what they can do to actually improve uh the quality and if we're talking about quality going down

what we can do to go back to the previous level exactly and that is the question because there isn't a lot of transparency there isn't a lot of control we've heard it all day long at all the sessions but there are things they can do and that they are probably doing with you what are some first steps to taking back control of AD quality because it's ultimately going to impact the bottom line mhm absolutely and I'd say that one of the first things you need to do is select the right U networks that you're going to work with now that's the very very basic thing to do now even if you're working with well uh well-known reputable companies in the industry uh if we're being honest they are also using some of the aggressive techniques out there um beyond that what you can do is uh block the most problematic categories and this is certainly something that our Publishers our clients are doing think of political ads think of religious as think think of over sexualized as this is all of all of the things that we can block um just

like uh by default and just not deal with it and then of course it's not a bulletproof system in place but I would say that 95% of the time or even more it will remove Those ads from your games for sure now this is step one step two would be to think about maybe specific Publishers that you know are quite aggressive uh with with their um with their ads and in that sense you might want to block those Publishers all together and then beyond that sometimes um a particular publisher a particular game are not problematic by definition but some of their campaigns are more distasteful than the others and then I would say that you have to instead of being proactive you have to be reactive and then uh kind of react on user complaints in a way that once the user reports are creative uh that they feel offensive about and once you review it and you say okay I agree I don't want to see this kind of AD in my game you can

go ahead and block that specific um let's say creative and in that way try to um push back uh to the networks and push back uh with the U advertisers uh one more thing that can be done is actually talking with ad networks and making sure that on the let's say user interface of the ad and the user experience all together is a little bit better if we talk about for example how much time does the pass before the ad is skip uh we can actually limit those default settings and kind of make them closer to what we want as Publishers so in that sense we can make interstitial ad skiable after 5 seconds and maybe after one or two instead of three or four clicks so talking with that networks and ensuring that they are following your let's say templates for ads is something that can be done again to make the whole ads experience better it's very easy to say we need to stop these ads and it

will have a positive impact but then you can't really show the positive impact if you can't really single them out and say see the hypothesis is true so how do you approach that or how should they approach that one of the things that might might you know be used is for example you can track how many tickets uh um you were getting before uh you started dealing with ad quality or trying to improve it how many complaints from users how many on how many onar review how many really bad comments on the stores it's not maybe 100% scientific but if you've got 10 tickets per day or 100 tickets per day and then you go down to a few after some of those changes then it's a good indication it's a positive singal that signal that you're doing something um in in the right direction um maybe you can't measure the retention but maybe these less tangible things can help you um understand that you're doing something right and it's also helpful when you're

trying to build up that that track record because a lot of brands are telling me because I look at both Brands marketers games and they're saying you know we want to be with the games who basically value this as much as we do and so you want to build up that track record you can't be like showing sort of you know dodgy ads and then all of a sudden go over to a Big Brand you Nike hey we're here we've been we've been good citizens and good stewards the whole time that doesn't cut it yeah absolutely I completely agree with you and I think that you know Brands want brand safe environments and this is especially important for big Publishers who are actually able to negotiate these types of deals with with the brands I think that you are in a position where you you need to make sure that your game is brand safe and that you know a big brand that has a reputation to to to live up to is not serving an ad right before or right after a really really bad over sexualized fake ad or you know just plain disgusting so I think that in

that sense we have to have some bare minimum rules um in the industry even though we're not regulated as much as some more traditional Industries right now and last word because everyone's more than a title Bojo you are someone I hope to be connecting a lot more with because now we're all about admon right I mean not that UA isn't sexy anymore but admon admon is New Territory what's next for you uh well I I I see myself staying with ad monetization for for for the foreseeable future uh big thing for me uh at game Biz was growing uh the team and not being just like a oneman show for for the ad monetization Services I've been somewhat successful at that I'm hoping that uh we we can achieve uh even more uh that we can work with even more Publishers help them grow their revenues uh and yeah uh keep everyone happy onward and up for I would say thanks so much absolutely ad quality I'm hearing about it more and

more because if you're going to monetize through ads part of the experience is the ad experience makes total sense where do you stand on that because there are some who say well you know it is about the last click or it is about the monetization but it's more than that how do you see it there is definitely like uh a moral question that we have to ask ourself when it comes down to add quality um I was actually thinking on the way over here a good way analogy to do it but because we're in London I'm going to use the example of hars so you know we're we're at hars and if you uh were looking through the window and you saw something that caused a negative response if you saw something that was offensive in any way your instinct would be to not go into hars right and they would effectively lose that business is the same thing to do with how um certain sort of AD quality and certain types of ads are being shown in games today A lot of people are running offensive ads sexist ads um you know and and they're trying to get a response from the user

acquisition side of thing to get people to download but actually what's happening is because they're showing low quality or offensive ads in the game what you're doing is you're actually negatively impacting your storefront right your game your inventory so it's extremely important that we as an industry actually start to observe this more and we start to put procedures in place and technology in place that will stop people abusing this just all for the case of trying to make a little bit more money there is a moral question and us who are in power the technology providers the os's need to start addressing this a bit more so I'm I'm very passionate about this one subject uh Peggy it's very timely but then of course you know it goes back to the actual ecosystem itself if it's set up for last click attribution then we are programmed pre-programmed to have these negative outcomes what can the publisher do what are you looking at as well as

qual yeah so so so from from two fronts one from the US acquisition side we're obviously ensuring that the quality of the ads that we're putting out the message of the ad and all that stuff is in line with what we believe is right for us as a publisher as well as for the ecosystem and for people if you know especially if kids are watching this we want to make sure that they're looking at ads that are fun and engaging and nothing that's trying to iniversity put hook into them in a in a you know a not good way from the monetization side of things is actually very tough because you know we're obviously partnering with you know mediation platform we have the network providers that are all linked in and it's all done uh programmatic these days right through header bidding and such so a lot of the inventory we're receiving within the games is just we don't actually know what we're seeing right we don't know what the ads themselves are we just know what the CPN we're getting so it is a little bit of a black boxing a lot of the time we have a monetization team my colleague Bruno is here today who's representing from that

team and it's something that we like to you know look into and spot check and whatever else but the honest answer is there's not enough being done and there should be much more pressure on the networks and even Apple and Google to start preventing you know bad ads going to Market fraudulent ads going to Market sexist ads going to Market there needs to be more stuff done I think when that message comes through that we'll actually see some things begin to happen but right now it's down to yeah yes it is disturbing It's upsetting some of them are very frankly gross disgusting disgusting um but it's down to the money so I won't ask you your financials John I promise that but have you heard or observed a correlation in the industry of basically saying yes there is a negative impact on the bottom line or on retention so there's there's a there's calculation that needs to be done here and I think a lot of people are not thinking of it in the sort of gravitus that that it is so some of these ads do

have higher ipms install per thousand Impressions which means that you know they're converting more which ultimately means that the CPM you're getting is higher and the fu rate you're getting at higher cpms is better which does have a positive impact on the LTV overall um at least from the users coming through ads but what's not being factored in a lot of the time is the users who are the inap purchase users which are ultimately you know more qualitative that they're worth more to us as a business um and showing the wrong type of ads to these users or even ad based users can result in people churning right because if people see something that's so offensive and then what you're doing is you're you're you're making a little bit more money over here but you're actually losing more money over here because the users are not coming back to your game because they don't agree with the ad strategy and that could be ad frequency how much is shown it could be the type of ads shown it could be the places they're shown it could be a number of things Peggy But ultimately people have to think a little bit more than just you know oh these ads that are getting the higher conversion in in in a bad way are

making us a little bit more actually if you look at the big picture and you zoom out you could be losing more money from just churn of users and the impact on the day one or day 10 or day 30 retention that you have when we talk about ads there are many types of ads that are disturbing not just the ones that are just you know moral obligation is US discussed but just something as simple as Unstoppable unskippable ads I heard a lot about about that today that if people are spending all their time looking for the X one they're not watching the ad and two they're bound to leave the game yeah I I had one um I had to click before the X popped up and then once I clicked so once I've clicked the attribution is obviously rigged for click right so the install would then be attributed from that so in my opinion it's falsifying the results right it's forcing me as a user to engage with it to fire a click that will then be attributed to if I ever download this game I wasn't going to this time but you

know if I would have downloaded in a week and the attribution window was still open and i' have done it organically that click would still register in my device right so there are a lot of underhand tactics that are being operated and this stuff also is very bad for user experience you know we we get our you know custom support team contact us saying oh this person's complained about this this person about that and then obviously our head of monetization Cecilia actually looks into this stuff and understands is it something on the network side was it a buggy ad was it the creative um but we are putting you know measures in place because it's important there's also spending time and resources playing whack-a-mole trying to figure out what and why is there an issue is there an issue for support no it's not it's an issue in the ad and and as I said we actually have you know our own monetization team doing these checks uh Bruno who's sitting exactly there is one of the guys who does it there's definitely more need for for this stuff to be product sized either internally or

externally so yeah something something that I know um obiously app Harbor are doing and you know we we're big supporters of of the product and what they're trying to achieve speaking of achiev and maybe we'll swing over just to show Bruno for a moment but that's just it you have to build you have to build more teams more talents what does that do for someone such as yourself John now you have to think about not just the admon team but then there's like the ad monitor block team but ultimately as a business you need to understand that the operating expense and cost of the you know on the p&l is something that you have to focus on and just you know it doesn't make logical sense as a business owner or a p&l owner to just hire more and more people to do things like checking of ads so there there is you know this is a question of efficiencies and product and and understanding if this is something that we want to develop internally which obviously costs time and resources and engineering and product and that or this is something that you need to go to a

third party with um my opinion is that it doesn't warrant the internal development a third party would be much more sufficient and efficient for this particular um sort of issue and yeah I I believe that it's uh something that we should be looking at [Music] more so yeah add my ADD management that is your job now um how are you doing that and what are you what what are your approaches are you expecting to be not only investing perhaps more time in it but also perhaps more Tech it's something that concerns us like for over two years already and we actually try to uh use the tools from the mediation itself at first trying to like to use the API maybe download some some important information about the the creative that's displayed to the user and we think quality like moving the product like to more quality product Etc to deliver more uh something that we have to focus more at the moment

something happens in the industry when we understand the impact something happens when we understand the numbers not just the moral obligation can you give a range for what the impact of a bad ad on retention is or could be because we talk about it but are you observing that as well yes when we we of course have to AB test it to see exactly what the impact will be but if for example users if the ads come all the way like every 10 seconds we don't have a cool down for example for that the users will probably have an impact on inow because we can see that the input is getting lower and lower and lower that's because the users are that come and are not interacting anymore with the game itself so this is something that guides us there's something maybe wrong with the ad quality of the the duration Etc so that's what we keep track at the moment and I cannot give you exactly the numbers but it has a really good good impacts like in the retention that

that's why you have to keep an eye on that especially at the moment what we have is taking a look at this latency duration everything that we have the tools that we have at the moment to to take a look at and when we fix that when we go through the networks itself hey could you please block it of course uh it depends on the the user that's coming in as well so it depends on the UA side on the mation side everything has an impact but when we do so we can see like maybe compared to the week before or the month before we seen a l it's not only seasonality uh but this this thing is really important so yeah and that's enough because we're in an age where incremental gains matter incremental gains are the secret to success and speaking of success I wish you of course the same at quali John keep rocking it absolutely Bruno great to meet you to meet you too thank you good to have you thank you Peggy this is the opportunity to catch up with

some of the great voices and speakers in the industry and that is how I come to you pe you are everywhere you're everywhere I am we're everywhere together I think that's what it is we were it was meant to be but it's great to see you again we've had we've had a little bit of a break from conferences here we are we are back how's it been posos how are you feeling it's been good uh I really enjoy uh you know conferences because I I think I get to meet a lot of new people and I get to know the topics that people are invested in topics on top of my mind I'm looking at a lot are the experience because the experience matters this is not just UA this is diversification you have to do something to keep people coming back and AD quality is coming up a lot because ad quality is one of the reasons they'll leave your app or game forever that quality first of all obviously is the content of the ad right what kind of AD you're running is it some kind of ad that is not suitable for certain you know age group and stuff like that you want to control that the other bit obviously is related to the rewarded

video specifically and the crash that happens within the game right so that is more of a tech issue like one is the content of the ad the other is Tech that the mediation platform typically enables and because of which you see a lot of issues of a lot of Crash rate actually going up because a lot of the times the reward videos are not getting that kind of support and the users you know there a lot of issues with the internet this that and stuff like that but obviously overall that is the other big thing and the third obviously is the control that you have on the ads as a publisher and I think that's the one that everybody agrees is a is is a bit of an issue because right now in the world of you know header bidding and the world that we are moving in you're having you're you're actually getting more Revenue because obviously your at quality is or at placement is actually getting relatively hard siing as compared to Waterfall because you know there's a more competition but at the same time you are you're not having a lot of control waterfall allowed you a bit of control but head aing like essentially does not allow you a lot of control so I

believe that also is fundamentally you know like sort of affecting the overall ad quality and the fourth point I also want to bring up is AD quality in my head also essentially is a little bit related to the kind of tech that the user has right at the end of because the Wi-Fi the device type and stuff like that that also affects so you will not always have a very good experience but at the same time I do believe these are contextual data points that you can use to actually run the kind of ads that you want to run right if I know somebody's on a lower Android you know 10 version as compared to Android 12 version I know the kind of Acts that I can onun I know the kind of apps I ask the user to install so all of these are contextual data points that should be picked up and it should be part of the apps that you are essentially running I'm just thinking of the number of people who are searching for the X so so much and so and so fently that they're not seeing the ad they're not seeing the game they're not they're not seeing anything and they're not enjoying it exactly no I completely agree I think that is one of

the biggest issues that that that has come up in our advertising industry to be honest because at the end of the day right now even without the lack of somewhat user data that is available I think it has become free for all right and that includes all the kind of ads that you're not comfortable with uh that nobody would be comfortable with but the point is that they are also out there like trying to make money and they're just putting it out there it also includes the fake ads uh you know sort of giving a wrong perception to the user which I personally believe is the absolutely wrong thing to do you cannot in my opinion that's a personal take you should not run ads that you know does not exist as a Game feature within within within the game right or in any other context so I think I do believe that it's it's a bigger issue the way the Innovation is happening in the ads right now they are being forced to run bad content ads because the human layer somewhat is not involved sometimes like it's it's it's not feasible to do it every single

time but you do need some sort of verification uh Through The Eyes of the humans as well I believe what I mean by human intervention is what I mean by that is not check every single impression it's not possible not check every single ad but at the same time the ads that are being uploaded on the by The Advertiser there are ways to sort of double check that through because in this day and age you have everything that can be read every single Pixel of the ad that can be read and you would know right what kind of content it is and you can categorize it after that and you can sort of run it with different kind of inventory would have different sort of rating and different kind of uh ads being run so I just believe having a monitoring of human eye with tech like Tech is essential like that's what's going to run you know another is really bad reviews and really just bad feeling between the player and the game and that can that can be worse than retention loss because they're going out and telling everyone about it and I'm hearing a lot about that you know bad reviews I'm not asking if you've actually seen them but what have you

perhaps observed that makes this an important topic for Publishers because it will cost them in the end it does cost them even right now I think it creates the pressure on the publisher side or on the advertiser side to control the whole narrative right because at the end of the day you have to be on top of the things that the feedback is being given to you right so I do believe it's a very good thing that users are going out there and actually posting about it and actually commenting on the App Store rating and using it and stuff like because that gives publisher okay no we don't need to run these ads okay these are bad ads okay the crash rate is increasing else nobody would check so it's a very good thing from a user perspective when it comes from a publisher standpoint as I said like there's content of the Arts there's contextual targeting right so there three layers involved and either of them could be bad if something it's something on the user side then you can't do anything the user is in a low data space and you're running an ad and the ad doesn't load then it's I don't think it's the fault of The Advertiser or the publisher in this case right but the other two I do believe that can be

controlled using the contest targeting very well to serve the right ad and obviously the quality of AD matters quite a lot the content of the ad matters quite a lot that you have to be stringent upon because at the end of the users suffer nobody else like even with those bad ads Publishers are making money right but the users suffer and you and at the end of the day your users are actually the ones playing the game so you have to protect the Integrity of the user by controlling the ad quality and being much more contextual uh because I do believe there are a lot of contextual data points that can be used and the segmentation has to be pretty good when it comes to advertising and users who are into IIA what [Music] a so today I'm with Ora Silverman she is AD monetization manager I would say head hono at pla is that too much you are in charge of all things admon correct or it is yeah and one of the things that we're hearing more and more about is AD quality because a player quality experience also means ad quality

how do you see this at pla is AD management or ad quality part of say for example your routine your daily job so we do use uh ad quality tools if it's on max if it's on level play but this is something you need to do on a daily basis you can't put bed ads you can't uh put ads that player complain about it's something that you need to maintain every day m I agree and when I think about it you know you you said yourself that you are the mother of two and that's something to think about maybe they're not playing games yet I don't know I didn't ask you or too young to play games but it will happen because they always play games so that's the other question you know it's the ad quality experience it's also the ad quality content for sure I mean we see it and we just talk about it uh earlier in the panel that everything is changed I mean last year we said okay it's it's it must stop the way they

treat the players cuz eventually I know it's uh CPI CPM whatever all the world is about that it's about Revenue but we need to think about more than Revenue about the players about your player about retention I mean as an iip company we need to think about that so we can't give any bad creative so what's your biggest nightmare maybe not at politica but just speaking as an expert and personally I will say that my nightmare is that a player or you know what even someone from my company will play one of our games and see bedad bed creative and then go back to me and said but you block it but you know there is some licks it's not 100% whatever so this is my nightmare what do you think Publishers can do since they don't really have control of the ads so I think it should come from the publisher themselves I know the play can really take care of the creative that running

on ourselves and on other games even though it's not worth the ctrs but it's something that worth more than that and I think they should be worked together Publishers I know that adman team usually are separate from the marketing but if we um communicate well and even between the Publishers and we uh post on LinkedIn uh and we block an app we block a creative all of us then it's it's powerful then just one publisher will do [Music] it you're working with Publishers which means you're hearing their worst nightmares what are they by the way yeah I mean I think it's been interesting to see how the ecosystem has evolved over the last 10 years I think in the beginning it was a lot about uh diversification um but I think what we've seen now is more tooling uh offered by the mediation platforms giving publishers more control in some areas and and less control in other

areas uh but yeah I'd say things we we help them with are uh you know ad strategy uh at maloka specifically had worked at a few different uh providers who did mediation or were at Network sdks at APPL and snap but uh with with Malco we're really you know focused on um bringing that value that we've been bringing on The Advertiser side being a DSP for the last 10 years uh now to publishers as we've grown our business uh you know we found that we're starting to generate a substantial uh portion of uh revenue on the advertising side so we want to give more control and and value to that ecosystem Publishers also want more control of what they're showing and they can't do that yet but what are some of the issues that they face because we sort of lump it all into control over ads but there's like unskippable right but then there's also just straight out weird and and and disturbing and uh and scams and

everything in between our role moving closer to the publisher also puts us in a position of uh responsibility to be able to give them control over what shows up as an SDK partner and control of the rendering you know it's easy to have a dialogue with the publisher about like what type of settings they want if it's skippable after X amount of time there's there's a lot more that's customizable that we can now do with the SDK so I think that's aligned with what Publishers want and I think uh you know the more difficult problem is what do you do about the inappropriate content you know we've implemented uh processes so that if you know we see something inappropriate or a partner reports something inappropriate to us you know we can pause the campaign if they're a repeat offender we can ban them from the platform for for longer and longer time so there's a variety of different uh things we're doing to to combat that what about growing admon what are some ways that they can do that in line with also taking responsibility for the ad content they show yeah and uh you know I

think this was a theme that came up during during the panel is is really being able to integrate that strategy as early on in the the life cycle of the the product and the game so that it's you know it really uh provides kind of a buttoned up e economy uh can be very difficult and can feel to users like it's an afterthought if it's not done at early enough stage Michael I have had some great interviews with some other people at Maloo and you add to it so we'll say hello to sopia because just had sopia on Pocket Gamer she rocks and it was great to have you as well it was such a pleasure thank so thank you good to see you this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games Market in all its wonderful complete lexity and strangeness so if you have any

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