The #1 AI Skill You NEED to Succeed in Marketing (Hint: It’s Not Data Crunching)

[Music] hello world welcome back to the Pocket Gamer podcast with your hosts me Brian Bago and the queen of the new year Peggy and salts hello Peggy how are you I am fine Brian welcome yourself a new show and the topic right how can you not talk about AI right it is the topic it polarizes the industry or sites it depending on where you come from not everyone's using it yet but everybody wants to know how is what I found out and heard a lot so yes this is it how to harness the AI superpower we've got two brilliant guests who do it right so first up and maybe you raise your hands so we know who you are we've got Bobby hollanders he's head of sales and account management at appier that's a company that's not just talking about Ai and writing the AI wave but also helping mark ERS Drive Real Results and he'll be

talking about that as well and just dawned on me why would mate have to hold up his hand do that and then there's mate Lun Rich creative strategist who I like to call the mad scientist of nice that's a good one yeah sounds about right thank you very much for having us yeah great to have you so wonderful to have look at this Brian how can it not go well with these Minds in the world yeah this this is it and I mean for the the people listening at home um you may or may not be able to tell whether this has all been AI generated but we'll we'll do the big reveal at the end welcome onard welcome on board guys it's lovely to have you here um and we really appreciate you joining in I'm I'm one of these people who's more enthusiastic and excited and interested in AI than skeptical and scared so I'm really looking forward to this cool very good exciting to be here yeah let's do it

this is it so there's a reason why we bring them together right I was looking M you've analyzed over 372 million creativ first of that seriously no of course no no of course not of course no come on like it's it's a big number that I don't think that those many creatives are alive obviously but I use big numbers as everybody big numbers well I I actually believe you are the type of person who would go deep into the details I've known you for a while even before even before now I knew you way back when mate so you are in your creative lab my mad scientist that you are um is it what you are harnessing or is it becoming like your assistant your your igore in running your experiments well I started uh with AI kind of ugc before it was cool couple

of years ago when it was just talking heads and no emotions No Hands nothing now we see AI ugc or well AI people in the ugc type of creatives is walking on the street in the car in different positions so it's uh it's quite evolved over time and I use it almost every day uh and by it meaning different tools to create creatives and produce videos because I well I'm a UA manager right uh I don't know anything about motion design well I kind of know but still motion design is not my primary skill these days I produce videos on my own by myself with the help of AI in very short amount of time so I don't need extra hands I still have my own creative team of 10 motion designers but they do their stuff and I do all these experiments on my own so yes AI becoming oh I guess it

became a very important part of my day-to-day job think about it in this way uh I one of my motion designers can create a video if it's a like easy easy video that can be done in a day I do creatives within couple of hours it's obviously it's not exactly the same creative concept but I still can create a video full video which is taking over all the spend Ed it's performing really well on Facebook on Tik Tok on different UA channels within hours so here we are yeah here we are and and I read about the budget for that we'll get that in we actually get to that in a moment that's a story in itself maybe a quick follow up with you Bobby I mean yes you also do this we know that we won't talk about your your YouTube talk about aier um yeah you're doing this there and you're seeing it and viewing it as a growth Catalyst but

what's the most disruptive potential you're seeing with AI in 2025 yeah yeah that's a good question I think think a lot of things are still like unknown because a lot of marketeers and UA managers still figuring out what is the best way to do it and I think there's roughly there's around three groups there's one group that's just completely doesn't want to use it and just want to do their own thing and there's a middle group that's kind of testing around but hasn't graphed the functionality of it and kind of then Fades away from it and then there's the third group that you know uh as B also described like is using it as an efficiency driver right really making things faster making things easier to do but still staying in control right um I think there's a lot of talk about AI be becoming fully automated that you don't have to do anything uh that that would be disruptive I don't think that's uh going to happen anytime soon right there's a lot of mistakes that AI still makes and you really have to use it as a

I would say a co-pilot maybe right co-pilot might even be stretching it but um the creative part has been well documented and that has been great use I think the disruptive side in UA is really that it starts being better at data analysis right giving you better suggestions about what should you do and take into account um historical data but also real-time data and mixing that to give better uh predictive analysis and that is what we're trying to do at app here um as you mentioned we're like originally a true AI company we were an AI company before everybody called themselves an AI company no disrespect to the others but like we have the credentials of uh multiple Awards in uh this segment yes um and we're trying to figure out like how can we be really incremental and um not talk about AI but let kind of the the learnings of what AI is do the talking so uh for us it is really taking that next step in in data analysis campaign optimization and really helping marketeers to scale that

right identify what are pockets of inventory or creative usages that you haven't figured out that uh a machine can identify by uh learning um faster than we can on a massive scale some amazing points there Bobby and yeah you know your point about using it as a co-pilot I think is very well made it's one of those things that people T seem to be sitting back and waiting to be told ex this can do or just waiting for it to take the jobs but but going out and actually chatting to these you know LMS and and figuring out you know why don't you ask them how they can help you and it just seems that doing so much of the grunt work the data analytics you know spotting the the trends that it would take a really really highly experienced analyst to do would be you know number one for a lot of people but um I want to bring it back to your previous Point Matty if if I can your LinkedIn post about producing 15 ugc ads

in under an hour I mean really caught my eye hopefully that's not one of those big numbers that we talked but it's actually a small number but yeah it can be even even bigger 15 15 is pretty decent you know and and and and at$ seven it's it's quite cheap yeah that that in itself so so alongside that kind of efficiency um how do you see AI transforming UA strategies and especially as we shift as Bobby was saying from from data driven to that kind of insight driven marketing well I think uh if you asked me this question two years ago or three years ago I would say ah it's another hype or Trend because I was also one of that uh the people from the group one which is like ah you know AI I don't care that much because what it's not useful for me because it was the times where you R UA especially like mainly on Facebook or Google and it's not as efficient or as needed when you run big campaigns on

Facebook or Google but you go outside of Google and Facebook and then suddenly it's a lot more work and you need to be more efficient and you know you have algorithms which is not exactly as great as Facebook or Google so you need to leverage the AI to make decisions to get data to just just go there and uh and be really the you know I can do job for like for five people nowadays thanks to AI which wasn't the case before so let me ask uh mid Journey or C GPT or whoever okay you know what this is this is what I do on a daily basis how can I be better I like you know what let's let me just give give me your set of data points I will help you with the data analysis and you make the decision that's the co-pilot right there hey mid Journey look this is this is the best creative that I'm seeing uh being run on Facebook give me more variations or just you know what this is the this is the creative please write the prompt that I

so I can actually create more of these easily just create uh just use different prompts so now the UA Manager work it's more about motion design storytelling and prompt engineering to be able to actually get the best possible output out of the AI itself and this is going to be very very very important for all the UA managers out there yeah I think that exactly it's asking the right questions asking the right prompt right that that is kind of where the the development of most marketeers and UA managers getting them from either box one to box two or box three is like learning how to not be scared of thatb replacing them but actually enhancing it by being able to ask the right questions and uh I think M describes that correctly five years ago everybody was try trying to get an install and get on top of the App Store that that was basically the strategy that maybe maybe 10 years ago maybe I'm a little little bit but maybe 10 years ago but um yeah and I think that the AI

can help with all these different inputs and make it easier but then you have to ask the right questions to get the right outcome or else you will disregard it which is really hard by the way that is that is extremely hard yeah extremely hard yeah yeah definitely that that's not something that um you can do because you have to take into account so many context and I think that is something that AI still needs to improve like what is the context out there that is important for your analysis um but if you allow it to learn based on asking good questions and the tool itself that you're using you know is able to learn from your question asking then you can create something for for yourself you can you can go to my website and then there's this little popup which is me basically and it's called mate AI so I build it with my friend feed that AI or the the llm agent with all my previous podcasts blog posts and everything so you actually you actually chat with me but it's actually AI it's almost the

same The Cheeky tone everything is there it's seriously like people thought hey so I was talking to you but you didn't really reply like yeah well because it's AI so and wow this is this is one part and then the other part like there's so many different tools you don't they're popping up like every day and you can use you can use an experiment with all the tools and you will get very different outputs so you need to find way okay so maybe for this type of creative I will use Runway or clink or I don't use CH GPT but I use I don't know perplexity whatever else I'm just making this up but I think you can find the tool that is right for your workflow and just implement it there and suddenly way life is way easier yeah yeah and I think that you like actually describe a very good point that people forget about AI is what database is the tool learning from right like now we're talking about mates it's awesome that you dist distilled all your knowledge

but if if the tool doesn't have good access to a good database then the responses that you're going to get are limited to that database right AI is not something that actually can scan the whole world no it scans the input from the database that it has um so that's also I'm not sure maybe I'm jumping ahead but that's the conversation we have with marketeers as well it's like you know if you're only giving us this much data right we're not able to do anything with our AI because the database is really small right we we need to have the best coverage possible um to let it learn um and and I think that's also something a misconception what people have that they understand that side of it how much input it needs to be successful yeah Bobby because people still forget about how many new or how many events you need to send back to UA channels on a daily basis for algorithms to to work properly and that's like that's the the biggest problem if you have a data set of 10 people like how how can it how can it work it's either amount of data or time

so you pick yeah there you go yeah yeah and and the predictions are are the same like I when I when I talk to potential clients or existing clients and they ask like hey do you need all my data and of course that is a very sensitive topic but I I use the analogy of market research right and I maybe I Peggy I used this before in an earlier chat but if you want to identify what is the favorite color of somebody of a city and you just ask 10 people in a street you're going to get some color if you ask the block you're going to get some better color but if you actually ask like 50% of the city your input is going to be um like a great uh uh how do you say that representation of the actual favorite color of the city because the bigger your data size the better the forat is and that's the same with algorithms if they only have one event you know all the other context doesn't matter it doesn't learn from anything else with that then just becomes random so you got me on two follow-up questions

really quick one is uh since it's going to be so important to ask the right questions to know the right prompts mate do you think that UA teams are going to need to either hire this skill or be this skill that's one and for you Bobby what is the right amount of data to be sharing to get a statistically significant a strategically significant decision well I will start because this is uh this is going to be very important for from from now on to to the Future in terms of the UA like people need to learn this you I mean you can hire externally but then eventually like you you will need to learn how to ask the right questions and how to write the prompts it's like now now is the time like now people need to realize okay so I need to be able to write the creative brief the the storyboards the the basically the whole narrative for the cre and then now I can actually build it

by myself because of AI and it's all it's all going to be very important for the UA managers because that's like that separates the the grade manager gr U manager and the mediocre UA manager that's like almost like when idfa happened so now this is the next stage that is something we need to I think just just think that through Brian what he just said I mean here we are UA managers well it's great for someone like you Brian you have to write the creative brief and do the storyboard I mean that's something that you do because you're very creative On The Fringe but not everyone is you know they came they started with data and now they have to be artists so skipping back to you Bobby the data question how much is enough is more better or how much is better that's a good question more is better but um again um too much is also not good because then you you don't want to overlearn on things that are not sufficient so the first thing that we when we on board Partners um we kind of

ask them the question like hey have you already identified for your app or for your game do you know what are key milestones for a user to kind of you know um progress as long as possible in the game either for retention purposes or purchase purpos and do you have an understanding what kind of events are aligning with that if they have a good idea that's great right and then we can identify if there's any additional events that they don't have seen before that actually align with these other events and that that's where you can scale because that's something that you might not have focused on your your purch your buying behavior in your uh UA channels have not focused on and that can actually be um you know a wide space where you can really push because these users have an event that they uh other partners are not necessarily focusing on or your competitors are not focusing on but giving it too much feedback um can only work when the scale is big enough so that it can filter out the noise because if you if you have 100 installs per day for example and you give it too many different variations then it

becomes difficult again if you have a thousand installs per day you can add more variations because the data has more clarity to learn Etc so the scale that you are able to generate with your app uh either organically or paid kind of aligns with the amount of input I think you should give it I think the percentages depend a little bit on what type of game you have but roughly we see between 1 to 5% of the key events are necessary to kind of start taking the next step in terms of learning because um I think the the one to 5% rule is also like 1 to 5% of your users are going to be at least in iip driven games are going to be responsible for most of your revenue for ad Revenue games it can be different but um there one to 5% of the events are going to be key for your for your growth go wide but be Discerning yeah yeah yeah I think I think you don't want to you don't want to right it's when you're starting school when you take one class you know you you you start learning but if you already talk 20 classes your mind will explode right and I think that is you kind of have to um go progress as you go but yeah like

if you are having at that 100,000 uh scale then you know there's a lot to be gained in in buying efficiency of cost efficiency and understanding then you can look actually look at Beyond vaa right you can really look at okay how can you grab this audience and and make it work for a longer Time by identifying different metrics but your game also has your app has to also be set up for that right the app has to have these key identifiers in the app and I think that is difficult a lot of times some of the after we work with are super old and you know the foundation is built and then they don't have the opportunity to roll back all these things that we asked them to do so I think a lot of app development now is also going to be part okay how can we do great data analysis uh uh along the road so that we can keep our lifetime of our app or game longer uh because we have the right input and uh I think that that goes beyond you wa it goes into game development and goes into you know produce working with the UA managers to

identify uh what is growing their apps right now you know what we hear this we hear this so often on the podcast from guests which is all of the disciplines are kind of blurring together and converging you know designers and developers now have to also be looking at monetization and hybrid monetization the community managers have to be able to feed back into this and data lies at the heart of it all so I it's a point really really well made but I want to stick with you for a moment Bobby so right at the heart of it for marketers who have not yet started their Journey with AI or embraced the opportunities what's the one big question they should be asking themselves before they go diving straight in I think um what tasks are they dealing with that are mundane and are taking too long for getting them to the to their task that they really want to do what they think is important right because if you look at your day and you spend 50 hour of five hours a day going through Excel identifying specific numbers right can you Outsource that

right I think use AI at the gr are not to let them make decisions but make your life easier and then if that's working you figure out hey I can ask them better questions to make them everything in Fisher you go one level hey can it also help me in identifying uh new ways of improving the tasks that I actually like right and then if that kind of helps then you can say okay let it challenge me what should I be doing that I'm not doing what am I missing right and I think that's kind of how you can scale because if you want to go to the top level those are the most complex questions but if you go on the bottom level you say hey um can you look at this data set and can you identify uh a cohort of x amount of users that do this and that and uh is Facebook working better than Google right I think those are the basic questions that you can um help with I think maybe has more experience with firstand look yeah look this is this is a a report I do every week uh get like prepare report and then put it on Slide it's very concise very

straight to the point no no fluff there you go and you have you have a deck like in in a few minutes so like these these types of um activities because it's really annoying and you still need to do it and it takes a lot of time yeah so and again like you said you can ask hey this is my day I want to have more time what can I do better what can you help me with and there and there we go y perfect ask that's thing like ask I was talking about um storytelling and and briefs that's brilliant you know that ask it yeah just because I wanted to get to the point where I said storytelling and creating brief is important and I just went to the C GPT two two days ago and said look I want to build a brief for this game this is the like tell me the who is the the main audience for this game uh because you can search Vib now then come up with a storyboard

stepbystep guidelines act as a creative director and for every scene please build a prompt so I can build images out of it then prepare a prompt for image to video prod production I had this in 10 minutes and I just had to stitch it together in different tools and I have a video suddenly so it's just this is exactly what you can do yeah I I would say that that's that's that's medium experience right there I think I think that the example that you use about creating a report is like perfect for people that are inexperienced exactly and then I think that that second level that um is more complex because then you have to be able to answer those questions and think about the prompt and what you're asking but as as a great stepping Zone as a second uh or even third variant so my very good friend and my former teammates from from Pixel Federation and then supercale told me look you need to think

about how you talk to C GPT as we are we are talking to each other like you really need to be having a discussion like think about the CH GPT it's me and we talk and we discuss different things UA this is how we approach jgpt this is like yeah that's very cool I like that and I was Al like oh my God this is so brilliant yeah yeah yeah that's great yeah because you also also see the limitations of where he stops understanding you and misses out the context and then uh you kind of uh nice that's a good one it takes it out of the Realms of an app you know and I think a lot of people are still seeing it as software so the command line has to be absolute has to be you know programmatic having that those contextual conversations can can feel really weird because let's be honest it it it's a machine but I think it's a again a great point and it's it can help encourage people just to have those conversations

um I'm I'm having a bit of a thing with Gemini right now you know I nothing weird but um gini really seems to be liking all the stuff I'm doing in Scotland so you know I'm I'm I'm rolling with it yeah nice nice I gota imagine what would happened you know mate just thinking if you're having this conversation just say to it like amaze me and then see what happens and share it with everybody because that I think would be mindblowing right that would be mindblowing there there's also some crazy going on on my Met m AI stuff because I can read those discussion and some people are just really really weird and those discussions they can't see the light over they need to sit in my on my website it's really really weird so there are two you know it's a double-edged sword let's CL that okay all right gonna get back to something slightly serious here okay um cost okay cost and appier you're

helping clients stretch their budget Bobby so it's about achieving higher Roi using AI I'll I'll start with you asking for an example there and then I'll go to you Ma asking the same question you know what you're seeing how you're seeing maybe the clients you work with the studios you work with also achieve higher Roi using AI we want to get an idea of framing those numbers to get people really excited about what they can achieve and also some benchmarks because we're sort of stabbing in the dark right now so I'll start with you Bobby what is it that they can achieve any examples yeah it's a it's a difficult one because you know in our daytoday we we kind of refrain from talking about hey what we're doing is AI right now right that that if we constantly keep saying that then people are like but what does that mean and they want to see more and so it's it's kind of a balance on how like how do we

yeah because we're we're a programmatic player we're a manage service at what we do so we have a real-time dashboard people can see everything that's going on but in the end um our team and our machine is doing all the work right so it's really about us showing like hey we have uh added this creative or we added this inventory and this came up by uh um under analyzing uh your results from previous months that we should push more on X and Y and it has a 10 to 20% cost reduction which you know allowed us to have a um higher cost of a lower cost per install and with that a better return on investment so we're actually for 2025 this is one of our topics how can we um you know make it more um visible for our partners that what we are doing on the back end comes from AI learnings not necessarily that we want to talk about AI but what that we want to show the power of our tool but um it's a fine

line in you know giving too much visibility and sharing your secret sauce and U not giving enough that people are like yeah because there just been 20 people uh uh in your office just typing numbers all day um but mainly what we try to do is have a 10 to 20% cost reduction quarter over quarter uh but it also goes hand inand with you know what is the what is the app developing into right so there's the app the app doesn't go stable like this it has different events you know people leave the game people churn after a certain time so I think those things that we take into account and also try to forecast uh in our conversations with our partners about what can they expect and what they uh what can we expect about their app or game developing over next year but um it is definitely an difficult thing to visualize yourself uh you said yourself Bobby you know it's like a process you're going to be as good it's almost like a you're going to be as good as

what I share with you exact I ask you so it's the same here at many levels yeah before I go there Bobby you need to just educate the the industry which is extremely hard and even though even though you do this 80% of people just don't won't understand anyway so we are not there we are not there yet but you still need to try and educate because it's really hard topic to kind of understand yeah also quite hard to to calculate all the all like how AI can help because it's like you said it's very very much about making things efficient but I can do the the simple calculation like you mentioned before so let's say one creative roughly $7 let's let's make them make it $10 yeah make it $10 usually The Benchmark for a creative that is uh produced by a agency it's 1,000 or 1,200 so there is a very big

difference of course it's not exactly comparing Apples to Apples but what is is all about you produce fast creatives and then you compare roas and cpis and the spend against these creatives and suddenly you add these AI driven creatives they're getting majority of the spend immediately because people love to watch all of this because it's different it's novel and as as soon as you watch it long enough it gets better position in the in the auction because people care people comment all of the different things so then it gets better cpis thanks to this and then eventually better roas afterwards so just combine the cost per video then if uh when I compareed the let's call the regular videos versus the AI driven videos that I've done it was I guess 50% CPI ction and almost Triple R in a week wow and like exactly

that's what I'm talking about and then I start adding all of these new creatives that I just can't do with AI every other day and all of them just start getting spent and CP better cpis and also ultimately raas the conversion like the the vinner ratio goes from 10% to 50% and that's that's insane that's insane yeah so like this is like how how to kind of um calculate like how AI can kind of help with all of these ma you're the real deal right you have a tribe it is real down to your brutally honest newsletter and everything going on over there which instantly congratulations on it we're in 2025 it's going to be massive for you but be brutally honest with us about the one thing Studios consistently do wrong dealing with AI yeah they think AI is going to steal their jobs and it's I mean it's still

we're still in this um way of thinking AI is going to steal jobs of the motion designers and the developers and basically everybody because that's that's the future but it's not really as soon as you start working with it you you know that it's going to actually help you and not the other way around so that's that's the thing people just need to understand and people don't understand because they've never tried because they're not pushed into trying anything with AI because oh you know what this is my workflow this is fine I'm doing well as soon as I said to my motion design like guys like start using AI now it's yeah the efficiency improved immediately again like from 10 people team we can do work for 20 motion designers it's just it's wow that is the efficiency like you need to start yesterday that's that's the thing super good news super good news for small Studios is what I'm hear exactly yeah I

again I I as I said I can do work for five people not that I wasn't able to do it before but now it's even like way more efficient so yes small people uh small teams definitely going to leverage this because they have to you how can you compete with big companies you can't and this is yeah this is the ticket it's so odd um because you know we run into people at all of the events and the shows that Peggy and I go to you would think the games industry would be all about embracing new techn IES but we we can be so resistant to emerging Tech you know from web 3 to AI um don't even start me I I I was cancelled last year because I I linked to a story about an nft that was doing something different so I'm I'm delighted that you guys came but be before we wrap up because uh sadly we are going to have to to close things off um it's been hugely insightful it's been very inspiring but before we close I'm going to ask each of you we'll start with you first Bobby what what excites you most about the

potential of AI in the coming year in 2025 that we still don't know what what it's truly capable of and I think um that you know the there's a lot of adoption but as there becomes more adoption the tools become better the the database becomes better so I think like if you look at the growth from 23 to 2024 it's already been crazy and in 2025 we'll see things that we didn't think about uh at the end in the begin beginning of the year so I think that's what I love about working in Tech or in in media is that it's one of the fastest changes Industries and things that you already like the nty nft example right like like uh that blew up and now it's not at the same level anymore I don't want to disregard it but like there's going to be something like that that's going to pop up and it might be part of AI it might not be or it might completely challenge AI um so I think that is um that's what excites me the most I I love to explore and I love to step into rooms and not know what's going to happen and uh that I think that's going to happen in 25 beautiful

thank you and Matty well uh I've been talking about the creative and AI production uh quite a lot so I'm very excited about where the video AI is at the moment and how can it evolve in this year because it's got to be exponential it's already miles ahead of where it was two months ago now every week There's a new tool new update of the model they are using and it's so much better the Google AI V2 I mean obviously they had like you said Bobby like ton of inventory and data because of YouTube so they could learn and that output is just insanely good you won't be able to recognize is it AI or is it actually produced by by real people and we are now at the point where we see 10c videos uh being able to to be produced by AI I believe if we can get to 30 second

videos in summer we can get definitely above one minute at the end of the year and if this happens it's gonna be just really really insane there you go beauti like I just thinking out loud though because you know you have of course two and half Gamers and we know from our rap for Spotify that uh it sounds like a podcast I wonder you know do we get longer breaks my and Brian or do we or do we uh or do we have an issue well it depends in title on how we want to use it and implement it Peggy yeah you know have a little break in August so I won't I won't even tell who knows what happen it's well it it's just keep an eye open folks so if it's listed with Brian and Peg Peggy as p g g AI you know that we've made the change nice we have made so yes we are at the close but Brian we

have to stay traditional even though it's all about AI our tradition We've Ended it like this now this is our second year going co-hosting together let's do it let's wrap it with the question that brings us into the inner workings of our guests right we dig into yeah let's bring it back to what's what's really important so so guys thank you so much it has been joyful it's been interesting it's been challenging provoking in a lot of ways but I've thoroughly enjoyed it but before we let you go we have a question we ask all of our guests um or two questions I should say first is what are you playing right now what's obsessing you what you may be spending time with when you should be you know prompt engineering and secondly favorite game of all time um Matty let's come to you first if we can favorite game of all time would be Counter Strike 1.6 which is altimer because I played it when I was young and actually got me into the gaming industry and I'm playing now every week something else because uh

if you don't know we are actually reviewing games on on Two and a Half Gamers every week and it's uh we I actually play them so right now I played High SE hero which was launched by Century games recently and I played color block Jam from Ric also Royal Kingdom and all of the other games so it's a lot it's a lot every week something else basically beautiful keeping it real and Bobby how about yourself uh I have so many favorite games of all time but uh if I can pick one it would be Pokemon Red on my game boy I think uh that is uh I still remember myself in in my last grade of Middle School not forgetting completely about the performance we had to do because I was busy catching Mewtwo um and I I think my um like my favorite mobile game of that of all time is also them Pokemon go uh I've literally spent thousands of dollars in that game uh I

still play it a little bit right now but uh my best experience with that was with my brother-in-law uh we did not have a lot of shared interest but and he was not a gamer but he played that game and I I still remember us going through like the national the biggest park in Amsterdam getting all excited because there was a Pokemon far away and we running together her and um yeah that memory like that that I think that was the power of mobile gaming really come to max level where it stepped outside of the you know gaming space and allowed me to connect with other people so I kept it very Pokemon heavy but uh I think I would go with that beautiful it's what great choices M it was a joy I think Brian we have to find ways to um get you back M are you open to that I mean I absolutely all the time elsewhere yeah here A Different World this is more yeah it's more mellow yeah it's we can do an edgy mash up I love it's some sort of

collaboration 12in 12in Dan remix we'll make it happen that we look at that at least once a quarter mate and you bring some of your cool games with you or just what you're doing with AI um and Bobby a joy to have you as well because you were very genuine about what we can do with AI what we can achieve with it and I'll look forward to hearing more from appier in 2025 as uh as you come up with more of those approaches and benchmarks I think they're very valuable to the industry right now yeah for sure thank you for having me thank you very much this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market and all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any

suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platform so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian Bago I'm pegan saltz and that's a wrap until next week m