Solid Bash's Matthew Zoern On An Approach That Amplifies A Game's "Fun Factor"

[Music] thank you hello world welcome back to the pg.biz podcast with your hosts me Brian baglow and the ever radiant piggy anselves hello Peggy lovely to see you as always lovely to see you as well Brian I don't know how you come up with a different adjective of every show that could be a show in itself perhaps but uh radiant is a lovely word I'm feeling radiant I'm back from Mao another uh whirlwind trip and bringing back lots of guests for our show as well yes yes it's uh so if you missed the the last episode of the podcast Peggy has been off on our travels and going out exploring the the Forefront of the the global mobile games industry and bringing back the guests that you want to hear from so expect to reap the benefits of all of this jet setting in the very near future as we start to pull in the movers and shakers of the the mobile games world so it's

lovely to have you back Peggy I'm very glad you're here and we are joined this morning uh by another incredible guest I don't know how you do it but every week you bring on somebody who is either you know capable of blowing my mind or just who's totally fascinating we have Matthew Soren he's head of Studio at solid bash and what's interesting is yes solid bash we'll get to that but also his experience he's had over two decades of experience in the games industry across the U.S Canada in Europe and he has collaborated with top tier game development publishing firms including Atari right remember that oh Electronics oh yeah EA Hasbro Lego funcom and Sega and he has been breaking new ground in business development spearheading Innovation producing top quality games across multiple platforms and we'll hear about rapid prototyping but of course I do my research right and his colleagues call him and I quote a down to earth guy

who puts his heart and soul into his work that's why he's here Brian that's why we want him as a guest indeed and they call him out for driving positive change in everything from Biz Dev to UA to data analysis to liveops his energy is quote unquote infectious so we are strapping ourselves in Brian for a high energy and high value interview indeed welcome Matthew great to have you thank you it's awesome to be here a lot of pressure but you know I'll do my best yeah yeah it's a friendly podcast it's a friendly podcast we haven't lost a guest yet so we'll try our very best to take you with us but it's great to have you here Matthew um so going way way back into into the very Mists of time um I understand you actually came into the the industry through a slightly unusual and completely cool route is that correct yeah I mean not so much nowadays it's it's very common it's a very common path nowadays but back back when I started uh

everything was along the console pipeline so if you worked in a console game that that's how you got into the gaming industry I actually came in through uh I was originally went to school for graphic design this is like pre-internet and then when the internet kind of exploded I started to go into multimedia and doing a lot more multimedia which then led to me working for various companies um like music industry and then I was doing some stuff which then led me to the gaming industry doing um online gaming which at the time was was brand new and this would have been early 2000s when I was doing that and it was uh yeah it was unheard of at the time it was all new I mean mobile games hadn't even started at that point yet you're speaking to your audience here yeah it's Peggy and I were there yeah yeah and speaking to my age exactly yeah yeah so tell us about your your kind of your your first project the children's website yeah the the first one it was called Webkinz

um and I believe it it's still around funny enough almost you know two decades later uh I know it was uh about five years ago it was still around but it was uh it was a plush toy you got this plush toy that came with a code and the code was a 12 digit code and you'd go online and you would take this code and add it uh which then would give you a digital version of this pet that you would be able to have this virtual world where you could build you would have its room you could buy furniture you would play in mini games uh you'd run around the world you'd play tournaments with other kids all of these things to then you'd collect this money kins cash is what we called it and you would use that to just build your environment and your your world for your pets and the more pets you collected the more things you would get and uh yeah it was and it just absolutely exploded um and yeah it was it was a lot of fun so I love that you've been a Pioneer in what we're looking at right now Ryan

digital Collectibles and also sort of the concepts around gaming and titles tell me a bit more about what you're doing now solid bash you know what is it that you're doing and how you're bringing your talents your experience I've been at uh a roommate group as a whole which the studio of solid bash under under that that group uh for about two and a half years now and when I started we were looking at ways to offer more services and more ways where we could go to clients and do full cycle development bring in you know new ways of doing things uh or at least new ways for the the studio uh of doing things I saw that as a great opportunity to come in and and just apply you know all of my all of my learnings you know to help the team build and find ways that we could structure the studio so that it was very successful in its own way so that was that was one of the things that I saw with with uh solid batch it

was a great opportunity to to really come in and and and be able to really push some of that change and and it was a challenge and I love a challenge so that was uh so for for us we're doing full cycle and moving into live operations now which um you know has has the company has grown since I started I believe we're somewhere around four to five times um growth since I started in two and a half years ago both you know size of Studio revenues and and all of that and and we're doing well when we were talking in prep is it's all about bringing entertainment into the game a very interesting approach because everyone in the industry now is saying it starts with a good game it started a few years ago maybe with you know a great approach to Performance Marketing but now it starts with a good game tell me a little bit about how you're bringing the entertainment element into the game this creative approach that you have because I think that's what makes

solid bash stand out I I always and I'm going to be you know maybe I'll regret saying this but I always listen to people saying I've got a recipe for success I know how to make fun I know how to make this and and a lot of it you know it's it's luck it's timing it's you know there's there's yes there are different recipes to help you be successful but there is no recipe in my opinion for Success so the way that that uh we approach things is how can we expose the fun Factor or at least get to That Fun factor to understand what's on paper makes sense in a in a virtual setting right in a game because I've been you know doing this for long enough to see that sometimes what looks good on paper once you actually implement it doesn't necessarily translate the same way and so we approach it in more of a feature-based iterative process uh because what we want to do is get to the

fun factor and understand what makes a game fun and what makes this game fun for the users and enjoyable so that we can build on that core as opposed to this idea where I still see it today you know when I started my career we were we weren't looking at Alpha Beta you know this this regimented okay we're going to do a first playable and the first playable is going to be a vertical slice of all the features the features are going to be you know and it's like this you know and that's going to show the fun and then we're going to expand on the fun and we're going to expand on these things and that's how we're going to make a good game there are aspects that that works if you're porting a game if you've got something that you've already built you want to change you want to that's absolutely the approach I believe nowadays it's more about how can you find those nuggets of fun and again build on those so we will look at a feature base we'll break down all of our Milestones into feature and um I guess the the parts that we want to

expose throughout the development so we'll call our Milestones like exploration or we'll call it around a specific feature like um multiplayer or environment or or something to this effect that's more meaningful for the game and then the Milestones are broken down that way we focus on a feature make sure that feature is fun that way you're also not building out all of these other aspects that don't you don't really find those right hooks to to build into it um so that uh you can you can kind of build this in a more organic way the the pros and cons of this are production can sometimes you know lead to areas that you didn't expect which lead to higher cost or different ways that you had approached it but at the end of the day people want a fun game that's addictive and and catches something and this is the model that

we've found works not only for us but seems to work well for our clients as well and and we will build a custom team around this type of game specific that they're that they want to build so we'll find people that that match the the type of game that they want as opposed to well you know I've got a group of people that are coming off of a project and I can put them on your project now and you know first playable you know Alpha Beta you know type thing and I believe that that's much more of a of a way a people engage in what they're making they enjoy what they're making and you get a good product at the end because the people are bought into it and they're putting their heart and their soul into it that that makes a great deal of sense and I I have seen multiple Studios and and developers run into problems because they try to you know they have a vision it's and then they try to bring it all to life at once and so they have uh

so many different aspects so many different elements that they're trying to work on um and it and it doesn't necessarily give you that that kind of that Focus you know so we mentioned that the the top of the program the the whole notion of Rapids prototyping and you know so the this is one of the things that I I talk to so many students so many colleges so many universities here in the UK and I obviously prototype you know use pencil paper counters dice whatever you need to do don't commit a line of code until you know that your concept is going to work because I was involved in a project that got seven months in and then we realized oh actually the whole core concept doesn't actually work and when it is when we did get it to work it really wasn't fun so I I absolutely hear you now you've got me thinking actually you know actually it is about the fun and the hook that Loop that mechanic I mean you're doing it that's what you're doing

for yourself in your career for your clients as well it's finding fun I'd like to understand a little bit more about what fun is now because we are so far along and so sophisticated in our games is it the case that fun is still what fun used to be if you enjoy what you're doing that's fun it doesn't matter if if it's what somebody else believes is fun or not it's really something that's special to you I think I mean obviously when I hit a target market and we want to hit as many people with that fund and and it's and it's even a term that I've tried myself and it's really easy to say fun fact or fun Factor what's the fun Factor you know what do we what are we going to do with this but it's something that I've really tried to to kind of stop saying uh funny enough because everybody uses well what's the fun Factor what's the fun Factor how do you quantify fun it's really hard to quantify fun because it's different for everybody it's you know so we try to use like entertainment

what what keeps me entertained and there's lots of different things for lots of people I think inherent in in humans um this collection of stuff like something that I can collect that's meaningful to me is is a is can be fun I think uh something that that can be entertaining is you know can I sit with this for 15 minutes for 30 minutes and forget the time that has passed that's the entertainment factor and if you're to say has it changed I think it always changes and I think it's going to be based on how our how your target market develops over you know different Generations because what was entertaining for my parents is so not entertaining for me um you know and and I'm sure it's the same thing for from my my kids they're

they're you know they're they're in a different thing so it's it's always this trying to understand what those core drivers are to to keep people entertained and I think you know if you can go back to certain human characteristics like I mentioned collecting collecting and something that I can connect with and I think that's it that's that connection how can I build that connection to something so that people feel like it's something that they want to put their time and energy into as opposed to this arbitrary I'm telling you to do this because this is the model and this is what it should be so you should collect and you should have this and you should be doing these things and then I'm going to give you an energy system and tell you to stop when I want you to stop and you know not play and then come back later because I want to get those those play sessions out of you you hear what he's saying there he's talking about how Collectibles are part of a fun Factor we'll call it that and that's so different from the way the

industry is approaching digital Collectibles it makes you think that there's more to that so I think this this kind of goes to the heart of things um Peggy and what you were talking about Matthew I again really resonated with me because I I come from a development background um but one of the things that we we come up against in the podcast time and again is the fact that we now live in a world where developers have so much data at their fingertips that they can they they can in a way quantify fund you can actually work out you know where people are enjoying things where they're coming back and I take your point entirely and you know we've spoken to several people about the whole notion of agency you know letting your player determine how they want to enjoy it where they want to engage with it you know when they want to pick it up so how do how do you guys as a studio really kind of approach that how do you use the the analytics how do you use the data is it is it a big part of what

you're doing yeah absolutely yeah and and actually really good differentiation and and I'm glad you brought that up because you know saying that this idea of quantifying fun and it's very hard in the original model is is that kind of initial approach right once you have a game running you can absolutely and you should be using data to see how people are engaging what are the user funnels where are you losing people why are you losing people um having having those things where you can get that visibility to then better support the engagement of your users is is very important I mean I've always been since I mean since since Webkinz days like data has been a very important part of of how we we maintain games and it's not it's not I don't want to say build games from scratch because again like yeah you can you can base on things and you can base it on Trends um but it's that maintaining users and and always adjusting to what the players

and I and I I'm going to be careful about what I say it's not what players want because a lot of times players don't know what they want they they feel they know what they want but what they ask for and what you implement it's it's a tricky challenge to go in and do exactly what the users are asking because you might cannibalize your game you might devalue your game because people want everything of course they want everything but there is and it's funny there was this term and it wasn't my turn the term I didn't coin the phrase but it was uh it was a term that we used in Webkinz and it and it's you know I hope people take it for as I say it but the term was treat a mean keep them Keen and the idea of this was if people are complaining that they're not getting what they want that's exactly where you want them to be because it means they're engaged they want more they're driving it they're

demanding it they're really engaging in it whereas every time you gave them what they wanted there was no value to them so they were like oh I got it okay next what's the next thing and the more you did that and if people worked for it the working and that investment of their own time felt like they earned it even if there's no dollar value that engagement and that value that people put up their time felt like they earned it and so there was there was Pride there was look what I got you know I've got this even though it's digital picture you know what I mean literally a digital picture but it's like it's it's that connection again that I'm going back to that was that's very important and using Analytics to understand what your users are doing as opposed to what your users want I think is the key to this it's fascinating for me how that fits into human nature you know what you work for matters it's also a little bit of a good segue I'm going to take it anyway to

talk about you again Matthew because in a way you've had a sort of a journey and you've earned it if you look at it because you've gone from solid bash you've moved from basically providing a variety of Engineering Services now you're a full cycle right you're covering the entire game development cycle including live Ops and some other pretty cool aspects of this as well just tell us about that journey and how you threw yourself into this literally yeah I've it's it's using the term Throne myself because I've always felt like I've been very much uh somebody to take on a challenge no matter whether it's a smart challenge or not for you know for for me to take on but I've always used the analogy where you know some people will walk into a room they'll open the door and they'll look in and they'll check it out whereas I kind of like throw the door open jump in the middle of the room and say all right let's do this what you know and and kind of just take it how it comes at

me and I this approach if I can go back to the original question this approach of of um going into full cycle development it's that challenge of taking a game from start to finish and for me that approach of when you get to a game that is and I'll use the term complete and you know kind of quotes complete that's when it hits live Ops it's not complete this is when a game starts this is when you you really see how a game can can develop and what it can become because up to that point and this is what what we always try to explain to our clients up to that point you're just building a foundation to build upon and from there you want that two years or three years I mean ten years would be awesome you want that time frame of people engaging and always giving them more and kind of seeing how it develops

and and usually what you have at the start of that that live operations and where the game is two years later is a very different thing like even to what you planned it can change and and that that to me is much more enjoyable than saying okay I'm gonna build a game for the next two years and I can see that the Market's going to need this for two years and this is what it's going to be and for me when you get to that live Ops it's like you're going back to your data question what are people liking wow that's interesting I didn't know that what can we do to support that and kind of push it in that direction so it's this river that I guess is always kind of waving and changing and augmenting excuse me that that I love about the full cycle development and the live operations and and what I want to bring to the gaming industry and ultimately not so much in the gaming industry but to the public you know and maybe there's a little bit of of uh Pride there to say you know put my step on that I I had a part in that you know that was

you know I we did that that's that was fun and and I hear you you know I I again um when I started it was a as soon as it went to goldmaster the development team could take the you know the next two weeks off because our road was finished um whereas now for so many of the games that come out that have that are live it's lunch day is as you said day one you know and it can be an entirely different team there's a real kind of craft in being able to take an existing game and then tailor and tweak and shape and evolve it and to keep your audience and you know attract new players on an ongoing basis and it's remarkable to see some of the games out there that have now got eight ten you know 12 years of shelf life and are still attracting new players all over the world so yeah it's a it's a whole new world I want to break into song please do it's we've not had any musical numbers yet but it was always on my favorite Buffy episodes so yeah yeah

yeah exactly but you don't want to hear me sing so I'll I'll show you that yeah but but I will do one thing you said you know about leaving your stamp I understand you won't be able to give us all the details but you've had me going now Matthew I would like to know some of the cooler examples some of the accomplishments so maybe something you want to brag about a little bit I would say one of the one of the the very interesting projects that we're working on is how to so it's a and this one's out in in soft launch in certain territories so it's a it's a company so it's not a gaming company it's it's a it's a company that has stores uh you know a product that they they sell and it's the I don't want to say the gamification because it is a full game but it's how to leverage a game and build their product uh and add value to their product and their product line which also ties in because they're the

what they offer has many more Brands within that that they sell so all of these brands are now opening up these options to have a place in the game and you know have it more inclusive in this this idea of Brands getting in games A Little Bit Stronger so this one is a very interesting product because I think it has so many opportunities I like the physical and the digital I somehow seem to keep coming back in some way to this because I don't know if it's you know just the way or if it's because I've I've kind of driven it this way that because we had webcams with physical products we had Littlest Pet Shop online with physical products we had all of these things where we had physical products tied to Virtual products that you know it seems this one is is very much the same because there's like a hundred and some odd locations you know how can we use the physical locations to drive value and and tie and

bring this this idea of of entertainment and what I do on a daily basis and add a layer of enjoyment to these mundane everyday things that I just have to do you know um so this is an interesting product that we're that we're putting out it's it's a racing game I want to say Battle Royale racing game uh very very light but it's again it's just starting to come out so it's it's something that's just starting to launch into the market and and get some momentum that one's that one's a lot of fun uh and I see a lot of potential with that and it's really growing and we have a lot of interest with different brands to be involved in in that and in the right way um because I believe there's a right way and a wrong way to integrate Brands into a game and uh that's that's a whole other topic that we could probably get into but um that's definitely one of them the more enjoyable ones one game that is just starting uh we've

been prototyping and it's um very interesting approach and no one has I've not seen anybody approaching this in the way that we are I mean it's still a game at the end of the day it's it's let's say it's a builder game and it's you know but there's this aspect that is really bringing this social uh responsibility to the game to try to enact change and that to me is seriously worth um you know everybody sits and says well how can I make a difference how can they make a difference well it's it's the little things you do every day and if and if we can if we can take something and and truly make a difference in in games that that has a positive effect on the planet done that to me is is a very important aspect well you're among friends here you know it's we're we're great Believers in the the dreaded world gamification and the transformative potential of video games so they have so

much more to offer than I think many people outside the sector realize when it comes to education Healthcare mental health and well-being social inclusion and and you know um saving the planet and climate change we we engage with people all of things that we've discussed over the last you know the rest of this session have been about engagement and fun and enjoyment and that doesn't have to be frivolous it doesn't have to be throwaway you know you can you can have just as much fun but have it mean something as well so I I absolutely hear you um and the the value of games to Brands I think is something that there is still emerging it it seems from from my point of view anyway that the brands are feeling their way into this and how are you guys finding it out at this sort of the sharp edge do you think brands have kind of recognized the value of games yeah I mean you can't deny it right it's it's like saying movies you know uh

we'll have Brands you know seeing the value of putting their products in movies you know it is something that I've been talking about well over 10 years is this idea of gamification like I said there's a right way and a wrong way and I think that the understanding of what people think it means to gamify or get involved with a game is is UN I don't want to say unrealistic but it's it's not what they think and this is a constant thing that I'm going through with people like explaining to people it's not cheap to make a game you know like that that alone people think well you know I can just uh you know take my product and make an achievement board you know and put a chat system so people can talk about the product that they buy and and unlock achievements you know and it's like that's not fun you know that's not entertaining like you know like people do that already they do that on Instagram they don't you know like like

that's that's where people do it there's you know so so it's it's explaining this to people and and honestly I don't I don't know if I'm sure there's got to be a way but not every brand is going to have a way to integrate so it's it's finding ways that make sense for that brand as opposed to well I just want my name and my logo to be present in a game so you know for example going you know using a car game well there's a billboard so I'm just gonna put my product on there like for me it's it's how can you integrate that product more to make it again meaningful something that resonates with people and to me it's like well yeah you can do something custom around that brand you know if you look at you know F1 racing you look at stock car racing you look at uh any of these different sports like they have they they brand things around and then there's you know there's there's more of this um idea that it's custom tailored to

that brand and and you can build something in a way that uh is specific to that brand but it's also this limited edition aspect that that you you need to bring into it as well is not everybody or or you know can or should necessarily have it because then again it devalues it the more that something's out there the the less value that it has perceived so using again the car idea like if I build a car and I build a brand around a car skin that I want to put into a game then I limit it there's only so many you can get and and the people that work their butt off to to do that and to get that there's more value because you know six months down the road when you have new people coming in and they're playing a multiplayer racing game and they're like how did you get that it's like wouldn't you like to know you had to be here six months ago you know like and and you know and then there's there's of course people that will monopolize the the

monetization aspect and say well you know in one year we'll just sell it and make a lot of money and and be able to sell it I think it's you know again you have to gauge that with your market and see if you're going to devalue you know for me I always it's almost like everything that you put in a game has to have a bit of value Associated to it and and so that way you know what that every action that you take how that will affect the value yeah it's the unintended consequences and you think you're doing you think you're doing a lovely thing for people and you can have a backlash um I I'm still pretty sore about Apple giving me a free U2 album um yeah giving it to you or forcing it on you yeah I mean it's been my first choice yeah yeah I mean I not not to dwell on that by any means but it was a very interesting approach like I get what they were trying to do I think it was you know again this is where the value

comes in by forcing it on everybody I believe you're devaluing it if you made it available and said everybody can then I think then that's the choice of the individual exactly it comes down to a choice but and but I I hear what you're saying and and I think that that's one of the things um with brands I I I've seen so many where there's a tendency to to just jump in um and you you mentioned earlier you know I just want my name on this um and in the early days you know a lot of the a lot of the the Branded games there was literally no relation between the brand and the you know the core gameplay yeah um so I'm delighted to hear there's a a more nuanced approach happening out there I think there is I think it needs to happen it's got to happen um I hope it develops and it's something that people start to understand more and and something that that develops over the next little while but I still think

that there's there's a lot along the road it's a fascinating topic and I think yeah you're right we could have an entirely different podcast just exploding that but sorry Peggy well let me know and I'm happy to help I'm planning that in my mind anyway Brian I'm saying to myself when these two games he's working on are ready for prime time he's coming back because uh yeah you got me thinking and I'm really interested to find out how you stitch together digital and physical but I did want to think about a little bit of advice for our audience as well because yeah everyone is trying to get Brands involved it makes sense we need to monetize differently we need to think about this differently there's no blueprint but maybe you can share advice even brutal advice for developers who are saying I want to involve Brands there's a do there's a don't what would you tell them you have to find something that's going to resonate with your audience again it's going back to that does it you know yeah does it resonate with your audience does it add value to your to

your game um and that's a hard one because it's not necessarily the people that would resonate or resonate with your game aren't necessarily the ones that are interested in investing in this also so it's finding those brands that work with your game that support your game that build the value of your game and that product because that will also if the brand sees value and they can gauge the value then they're going to continue to come back to you which is going to give you more money so it's not just I'm going to take the 100 Grand now and throw their brand in there and I don't have to worry about it it's like well how can you actually make that into two or three hundred grand because the brand marketing budgets are huge for for a lot of these big Brands how can you give them value and have them understand what that value is so that they can they can create their their reports on their kpis and say well

here's here's what this value brought to our our brand then they will invest more and then you'll build a relationship and then that will lead to more things it's not an easy answer there's not one answer I would say that it's it's just going to be finding those Brands building it up and trying to support those brands in your game to give long-term value to those Brands it's a win-win-win if the brand gets valued the game gets value and the player as we've been seeing throughout this episode has to get value you know don't just stick something in because you've got a space or you've got a billboard that you want to fill okay well we could go on we could talk all afternoon we haven't even drilled down into the whole value of Brands and games and you know the development process and as Peggy was saying earlier um once the games come out we'd love to have you back I'd love to be back and thank you so much it's it's been a lot of fun and I hope uh hope I hope somebody gets something out of this oh I'm sure they will I'm sure they will

but before you go we have a couple of questions that we'd like to to ask each of our guests and which um comes back to the whole games I think you'll be surprised here so the first is what's your favorite game of all time and the second one is what are you playing right now that's obsessing you yeah uh favorite game of all time hands down civilization I've been playing Civ since version one since since College uh where I was I was probably playing that game more than I should have been going to class uh but yeah and now we're on Civ six and hopefully Civ 7 will be coming out very soon um but uh yeah I I absolutely adore that game it is such a it is such a game that I hold dear to my heart and will always play and yeah I absolutely love it uh what am I playing right now a couple

different games um one that that I really enjoy when I just need to disconnect and and create I actually have a Minecraft server that I still play and and I just tool around I've got this giant world that I'm just trying to terraform and and build and and so I I I play Minecraft that's that's my creative I just wanna do something um and uh I would say the other one that I'm spending a lot of time on is humankind it's uh it's a sieve type uh it's got different aspects I love I love the battle mechanics it's definitely early days and I can see how this game can really become uh even better over iterations and and over time I am strong choices around um so Matthew thanks again uh it has been a tour delight and as I see we'll have you back anytime look forward to it absolutely Matt I

will second that and say we've been talking about value the whole time and I'd love to jump on sort of like puns and ideas I have to say it's been an extremely valuable conversation with you Matthew and uh talking about value add well we'll do that next time around fantastic this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market and all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at pgbiz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in

listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz forward slash podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the puppetgamer.fiz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian baglo I'm Peggy Ann saltz and that's a wrap until next week foreign