Making a Cozy Game Hit in 5 Months

So we made this basic version, threw together a Steam page, and that went great because we had like a Twitter post that was kind of viral and I think we had like 9,000 wish lists in the first week and we're all like, "What the [ __ ] happening?" This is our conversation with Kathrin Radke, co-founder and programmer at Spielgarten Games. They make wholesome cozy games such as Sticky Business or Ritual of the Raven.
scammed into into becoming a programmer and we kind of ran out of money. We're like, "Hmm, I don't know. What should we do? Let's just make a game, I guess, because there's nothing else we can do." What we also did was make a TikTok video about it every This is very much reaching outside of my typical bundle of games. So there were a lot of interesting nuggets in this for me. I hope you enjoyed. What do you think? Why do people play cozy games? It feels kind of new, only became very popular in like the last, I don't know, maybe 5 years or so. Really?
before there were like cozy games, right? There was like Animal Crossing and and farming games, but like cozy games being super super popular is is only like a relatively new thing that I

think like got a big boost with the pandemic as well. Mhm. Um and and there were lots of people who didn't really play games before. Like I have lots of friends, especially like uh women that never played games before, but during the pandemic started playing video games and then I think cozy games is a a genre that appeals to to players that that are not very like into hardcore gaming because it's a lot easier to get into most of the time. Um so not specifically only women, but like generally people who who are not like hardcore gamers or what probably wouldn't call them self gamers. So I think some of the reasons are definitely like it's an escape from reality to be like in a place like I don't want to think about like all of these crap things going on. So I I'm just going to play a game and not think about it. Mhm. I think that's that's a big appeal, right? There's not really like competition or like bad things happening in most cozy games, but it's more like

chill and you can actually like relax. Interesting. Also what you said with the pandemic, I haven't thought about that. That makes a lot of sense. So so you think the genre kind of boomed on Steam at least, right? During during the time. That's interesting. Yeah, and then and then the big curator with wholesome games also started around that time or it started being more popular. And that that was a thing that then gained some traction on social media and like content creators. Mhm. I recently bought some data mined like data from Steam that compares like all of the tags, how well different tags on Steam are doing. And like the the top performing tags are are things like war, blood, combat. And then somewhere somewhere at the very bottom we got like things like cartoony, linear, and so and so. I think it's fair to say that cozy games are are probably quite a small niche on Steam. Do you feel that way or do you notice that or

So now making cozy games, I feel like it's not small at all because there's like so much more competition, I think, than there was like a few years ago. Um I think wholesome games that the wholesome snack had like for like December had like a thousand people who wanted to be in the showcase. And that is like so crazy to me that there's so many so many cozy games starting to like yeah, starting to be developed. Yeah, it it I mean it probably is small, but like for me and I I don't really play a lot of like I don't know. Games that would have the tag war or violence or anything. That's not my type of game, so I feel like, "Oh, there's not so much Yeah. so many games like that, but well, yeah, probably there is, but like definitely it's it's it's more now than it was a few years ago. Do you think the the cozy games are still on are still on the rise? Are there more new players coming in cuz you

said on a lot of new players came in during the pandemic, right? Do you think that trend's still going to keep going? Is it like that new audience is like bringing in new people now or like what's your gut feeling about this? Like obviously we don't know for sure, but like what what do you see in your bubble? Good question if there are still like so many more people, I don't really know. I've seen like in the last few months, I think that like some people are complaining that there's not now a lot of, I don't know, kind of sloppy games and also like the big corporations trying to like get into that niche as well, right? Um so there's many more games and like a lot more for players to choose from, but yeah, I don't know if there's so many more people playing these types of games.
That's true. We can only we can only guess. Then I guess what do you think what what makes for a good cozy game? Like what do you said people mostly play these like for escapism and for like basically

for forgetting your worries a bit. What what makes for a game that's suitable for that in your opinion?
I think that's very hard to answer because there's so many different kinds of cozy games. It it somehow is like the genre cozy game, but there are so many more like in there, right? There's like farming games and like simulation games and more like life sim games and like all sorts of different genres under the cozy umbrella that I think you can't really say, "Oh, to be like a good cozy game it has to be like this." Because also people enjoy different things, right? There's also more that more games that are more like um about like puzzle games or some that are more like story based. So I don't know if you can say, "Oh, there's this one thing." or like yeah, if there's one thing that all cozy games have in common. But I mean there must be a thing because otherwise there wouldn't be an umbrella about it, right? So I think what they have in common is a certain type of wholesomeness, right? What but what what is wholesomeness? We

have to define it. Yeah. Well, I I think part of it is that often there is no real pressure or like no pun- at least no big punishment if you get something wrong. Mhm. I think that might be a big part. But also there will probably be exceptions to that. More friendly tone maybe in the art and so on. Yeah, like storytelling is more like about about stuff that doesn't have like super high stakes, I would say. Mhm. It's not about the end of the world usually. It's like Yeah, yeah, you're right. like run a bookshop, run a sticker shop. Run a bakery.
a yeah, and then there's a certain aesthetic, right? That is kind of like cutesy, colorful often. Are cozy games more targeted towards women or is that a cliche, do you think? I think often they are. So it's definitely a target group that we keep in mind when when we make games. Got it. Yeah, because I mean that's just

the way it is. Like the the target group for cozy games, lots of women play these games, so It is what it is. Um for Sticky Business, did you start development during the pan- That was before the pandemic, right? Or when was Sticky Business? No, Sticky Business came out 2023 and we worked on it for only 5 months before it was released. Oh, wow. I didn't realize this was still such a recent release. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah, it's not that long ago. It was So we started working on that while we were waiting for a publishing deal for Ritual of the Raven. So we kind of like we started working on Ritual of the Raven and made a prototype and and started pitching and then it took forever to find the funding and we kind of ran out of money. We're like, "Hmm, I don't know. What should we do? Let's just make a game, I guess, because there's nothing else we can do." Um so that's when we started working on that.

Wild, that's such a typical thing. You make a little in-between project and it uh ends up being more successful than the main project. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's really funny. I didn't know that. What was like your studio history? How many people were you back then? Um so we started with with four people. We are now five. And we we all used to work together at another indie game studio. Um before we started and there were some layoffs and then we were kind of like, "Well, got nothing to lose right now, so we can just try." And we got funding from the MFG in Baden-Württemberg. So we could start working on the prototype for Ritual of the Raven. So that was the first idea that we had and that we were working on. Um and right, then we we made a prototype for that and started pitching and eventually along the way realized that we kind of need another person for community management and social media

because I was I was doing programming and social media as well and that was just too much for me to do. Um so we decided to get another person and then um that is the size we stayed and I think we will stay for a long time. It's enough people for that for the types of games that we make. Yeah.
No ambitions to grow further. Mhm. No, I'm very happy with with this size. Like how are the roles divided in your team? Like how many artists, how many programmers? Uh we have two programmers, um me and one other programmer, um a game designer, an artist, and then the social media manager. Yeah. And your artist did pump out all of the art for Ritual of the Raven. That's crazy
fast. Yeah. Yeah, wild. That's wild cuz it's a Ritual of the Raven for me looks like a very content rich game with like very quite an expensive and large world, to be honest, with with lots and lots of content. Uh lots and lots of assets to fill

probably. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I I think it it's amazing how fast you can do this because it's yeah, it's often like we're like, "Oh, it would be so cool if we had all of these cool things." And then she's like, "That's a lot." And we're like, "Yeah, but it's cool." And then 2 days later she's like, "I'm done." Well, not quite, but like it does This is what it feels like. Yeah, okay, okay, I see. And also for for Sticky Business, you you guys were also quite fast. So, like 5 months is is quite quite fast. So, how did that project come to be? You were like, "Okay, let's make a little game. We need maybe need some Maybe there's a way to get some funding, right? Right while we wait for the funding from the publisher." And do you do you still have different ideas or were you like, "Nah, that's it. Let's go." We had kind of a lead for the the publishing contract. So, it it wasn't like we weren't sure if we would get it, but it looked kind of good. We're like, "Okay, well, this might work, but like still we don't know. And like we kind of need to

do something or otherwise we'll just sit here and do nothing." So, it was just okay, let's do a small project 2 or 3 weeks just for fun. And then we can just maybe release it or maybe not, but like at least we did something and maybe we will like learn something along the way and maybe try out what it would be like to just finish a game and publish it on Steam because that is something that like on our own we've never done. It always just like in a bigger company with a publisher and everything. So, what we did is we we have in our notion board um like all of the ideas that when someone has an idea we just put it in there. And like it's a lot of crap. Mostly it's crap, but like a few of them are like, "Oh, well, actually that would be kind of fun to do." Um and so when we started working on Sticky Business, the first day we just like looked at the board and we're like, "Okay, this could be fun. This could be fun." And then we just decided on one of the things because we knew or like we thought it would be a 3-week thing. And we're like, "Oh, it doesn't really matter. Let's just pick one and then we'll just do

it." Um and and I also uh what we also did was make a TikTok video about it every day. So, that was kind of fun because on the first day that we decided this I made a TikTok video about, "Hey, this is the thing we're going to do." And the idea that we have and that and that was kind of cool and nice to like get feedback right away. Ah, okay. Yeah, and then then we actually did the the first the first version that was basically playable in those 3 weeks. The only thing that wasn't in there yet was like the customers and like the the stories. But everything else was basically there in a like yeah, basic basic form. You could play through it.
Mhm. I'm kind of very much wondering how do you even get good ideas for cozy games cuz when when I think about game ideas, I think about like I I often think about mechanics. I think about appealing fantasies. And like is like the fantasies something you think you start with for cozy game ideas? Is like, "Oh, sticker shop would be fun." Or is

it or is it like more more creative or mechanics-driven or how do you get these ideas? For Sticky Business and also for the game that we are working on now that is still unannounced, um both times it was more of a I'm I'm going to look online and try to figure out topics that are kind of popular right now or like things that people are generally interested in or like hobbies that people have. Um and for Sticky Business, I at that time when we started working on that, I just loved to like scroll TikTok and see these videos of where people print out stickers, pack them. And because I'm a big sucker for ASMR videos, that was kind of like a thing that I really enjoyed watching. Um and I also like, "Oh, it would be so fun to have my own sticker shop. It might be something that I could do." And then that is where kind of the idea came from. We're like, "Okay, so if I want to do it, maybe there are other people too who would enjoy this this fantasy of

like having their own sticker shop." Um and then thinking about, "Okay, but what would be mechanics that could make this feel rewarding as well." Was it I I think there's one very big brain thing going on in Sticky Business and that is the fact that the way you design the stickers is kind of also with stickers, right? So, you get this you while designing yourself, you also get this feeling of of placing stickers essentially. So, it's not So, so it very very much delivers on like this this promise of uh sticker shop both in terms of you get to place your own stickers to make the stickers and you're also selling the stickers. So, it's very smart. Uh was was that planned or was it like a byproduct?
Thank you. It was Well, I don't I don't really know if it was I don't think it was like, "Oh, this is like big brain thing going on where I'm thinking about exactly what would feel good." But it was more like, "Huh, so if you want to make a sticker shop, you kind of have to make stickers." And like we can't or like we didn't want to have people

have to draw them themselves or make it like very complicated. And I think this is this is where why people liked it so much because it's not difficult. Like everyone can can use these little stickers and make something that kind of looks cool. Um without like you don't have to be like a designer person or like very good at it, but you just throw it together and then it looks cool. Um and it that was something that we figured out in like the first 2 or 3 days that, "Oh, this is kind of fun." And we found ourselves just trying to make some stickers with the I don't know, 10 elements that we had. We're like sending it to each other like, "Oh, look what I made. It's a worm with I don't know." So, yeah, so I think this is while we were doing it, it was more like, "Oh, okay, this is fun. So, we this is something that maybe we need to improve and like work on more and put a focus on because this is like the the fun bit."
All right. So, so you started making it and then you realized that that's

uh quite fun and leaned into it even more. I see. Yeah. Yeah, and then lots of people now um have told us that it like helped them with their own creativity because I think sometimes being like restricted like that, not being able to do everything you want, but like you have these elements, you can only use them. That's it. Um but it it makes you I don't know, maybe a little bit more relaxed about the process and not thinking like, "Oh, I need to make some great design." People are like, "Oh, I'm just going to use this sticker element because I think it looks fun." So, there's less pressure.
Yeah. It's a very it's a lot very low pressure way to to be creative, yeah.
Mhm. Yeah. I think everybody who's played with stickers in real life also understands the appeal. It's like also why why kids love stickers, right? Cuz it's like so so simple. You just
Yeah, but you never used them. You like I I only ever collected them and never never used my stickers. We certainly use them.

But yes, as an as an adult also you don't really get to play with the stickers that much anymore. So, it's like maybe a way to to tap into that also the the nostalgia cuz like most people had stickers when they were younger, right? Where where did it go from there? You you say you were like almost done after 3 weeks. What was the rest of What did you use the rest of the time for then? So, in these first 3 weeks we made um a TikTok video every day. Mhm. And it's Well, we cheated a bit because I didn't actually make one every day because we posted them a few days later. So, sometimes I made two on the same day about what we did like the 2 days before, but yeah. Um we made like videos about the process and like some were like nobody saw them, but like there were some others that got some traction and people were excited. And it was really fun because lots of people had like wanted to like yeah, be part and like had ideas about. And we're like, "Oh, I I want stickers like this or that." Um and that was really cool. Then at the end of the 3 weeks we

published our Steam page. Well, I think after 4 weeks I think a long time ago. Um but yeah, We'll just say very fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we So, we made this basic version. Then we like threw together a Steam page and and published that. And that was like went great because we had like um a Twitter post that was kind of viral. And I think we had like 9,000 wish lists in the first week. And we're all like, "What the [ __ ] happening?" Solid. And for something that we like we're like, "Oh, maybe maybe if we're like very lucky we'll get back the money that we put in." Or like but then it was like, "Oh, okay. So, it seems people are kind of interested in this. So, this is kind of cool." Yeah, and then we decided, "Okay, let's let's put in some more work." Like yeah, we saw that some people were like actually interested in it. And then we kept working and added like the stories because that was something that wasn't in there in in that first version. And some more like polish because there were some like rough edges. Yeah, and then um I went to

GDC. And I've met someone from our publisher Assemble. I wasn't pitching the game. It wasn't like I didn't have a presentation and showed it to people, but it was more like we were talking about it. And then it was like, "Oh, we could work together because then we could make a port and make get some localization and make this a little bit bigger than it currently is because there was no we didn't have any money for something like that. Like there was no way we would have had localization in the game or um or something a porting or some more quality assurance. Yeah, so we decided to do that. And that was that was kind of cool in that moment. And then we made a demo. And then basically it was already done. And then it was released. And then So, yeah, it it all all all felt very fast. Like, "Oh, we're going to do this and then this." And then it was done. So,
Right. Yeah. There are there a couple of things here that we can zoom into. The first one is the the TikTok videos. I have a couple more questions about

that. Did you do English or German TikTok videos? English, yeah. English. And you but you didn't post them with like a VPN or something. It was like just some one of you just posted them on your phone in Germany. Yeah, it was just we just posted it from Germany. Um Yeah. Yeah, because at that time we had already used TikTok a bit and tried out different things and I think the consensus at the time was that it's not working if you just post it with a VPN because you would have to have an account from a different country. I really don't know what it's like now because we're just like it doesn't really matter. We'll just post them and it will be fine. Um But yeah. It it didn't seem worth it at the time to do to try something like that. Okay, interesting. Yeah, I'm just asking cuz I always like I haven't really dipped my toes into TikTok yet. I'm not entirely sure how the algorithm works. I I've just heard that it's somehow strangely region

locked. So that's what I'm asking.
Yeah, it is it is true that for the first I don't know maybe a thousand views or so they are usually like closer to you, right? But then if that is interesting to people and they and the algorithm decides to show it to more people then it also goes to other countries as well.
Yeah, and I mean there's some there's like some people say oh it's it's worse because if you post an English video in Germany people won't like it as much. Exactly. It's Yeah, but like to be honest is that true or is maybe the your video just not that great like because we also have videos that are not that great, you know? Um and I think maybe it might be a little bit easier if you post it in an English-speaking country but I don't to be honest I think the the difference is not that big maybe. And how did those those three weeks of posting daily how how did those go like what were the numbers you were getting from that? Did did they drive wish lists in a

meaningful way or Uh so we didn't have a page back then, right? Because the page only we made that the Steam page was only made after. And we also didn't have like looking back it would have been smart to have at least like a newsletter or something to tell people hey go here and you will be notified. So the numbers were like I think most videos had like I don't know maybe a few thousand views. Got it. Um and then some that had like tens of thousands or like hundreds of thousands. We didn't have a video like over a million or anything. It wasn't like super crazy viral. Um Got it but it was like a good source of feedback and ideas mostly basically then. Yeah, and it was still like for such a small game it was still a lot, right? Because if you make a game in five months it's not that expensive. So you don't need millions and millions of people actually. Sure. You said once you launched the Steam page you got to like 9,000 wish lists relatively quickly, right? Mhm. Where did those wish lists

come from? I think most of them came either from the from the Twitter post that we made or from the Steam algorithm.
What was the Twitter post? Was it a trailer?
Yeah, it was an announcement like announcing Sticky Business. This is what the game is and then it trailer, yeah.
With the link to the store page something.
Yeah, I don't remember if I think the link was not in the post. I think it was maybe in the post below.
In the replies. Mhm. Yeah, cuz we had I think a relatively viralish post for Islanders on Twitter as well back then and I I remember there was there was quite useful for wish lists and actually yeah. I don't know. I don't want to say any numbers if I don't remember. Was was pretty good as well. I'm I'm not sure how the X algorithm works nowadays if that kind of stuff is still still possible. Yeah, it's it's sad, right? It would have been nice if it was still usable. I I I mean every now and then I I see a post with like lots of likes

but our our posts don't there's nothing going on there for us anymore.
Yeah, I don't know. It's a like very every platform is sort of very different very different audience very different algorithm. So different things work on different platforms. It's it's very difficult to master multiple platforms I feel like. It's like already hard enough to master one mastering multiple is like Yeah, I think it also really really depends on the game on what the game looks like because so when we did Sticky Business our posts usually were quite good like not not all of them viral but like most of them had like a few thousand and then once we went and did post about Ritual of the Raven they didn't really work at all. Mhm. So and I don't think that is because like the videos itself like the videos were

worse or like we did a because of how well we made those videos but more that it was also way harder to show what this game is about, right? With Sticky Business you show one little clip of oh you make these stickers and then everyone's like oh okay, got it. That's you make stickers and then you sell them. Um but Ritual of the Raven is okay, so it's a farming game but also it's not. And you have these constructs and then they do something and they do it because you put in these cards and also there's story and like different regions and here's what they look like and then like most of the people are already gone. So
Yeah, so it's like what you're saying is Ritual of the Raven is too complex to explain. It's like for for Sticky Business at first glance is you know what it's about. For Ritual of the Raven you need to sit down and read like at least like a couple of sentences or something to fully understand what it is. Yeah, yeah maybe we Yeah, I don't know if if there would have been a a way to show all of that in like a three-second

video. Difficult, yeah. Very difficult. So and that is what like works on TikTok. I mean to like capture attention in three seconds. Everyone's like oh okay, this is what this video is going to be about. Yeah. But to be fair that not only works on TikTok. That's kind of the that's like one of the things that's kind of true for every platform. If you have a game that is easier to understand then it connects to people a lot faster. So this is what I typically talk about when I when I say appeal, right? It's like you can make two games and one is just infinitely easier to market because it's just more appealing. People understand it faster. It's like for for all three of the games I made I did always did relatively similar marketing but the outcomes were very very different. Like similar experience to what you're saying is for one you tweet about it nothing happens. For the other one you tweet about it and Yeah. It's not it's not like you're doing a different kind of

tweet or whatever. It's just like games connecting better. Yeah, makes sense. Interesting observation. So what are you are you taking something from that for your next project or what what are your sort of learnings from that? So yeah, actually it's it's kind of a bit what I just said that we we are trying to now make more games that you can understand in three seconds. Mhm. Because I also think that that was kind of more fun to us fun for us making videos like that that are easier to to explain and like generally smaller games. We worked on Ritual of the Raven for four years and at the end we were like Yes. It's enough. Thank you. Yeah. And like that that very short Sticky Business five months that was just fun most of the time. Um and our next game will not be just five months but like a lot shorter than four years. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, and then we'll see how it goes with with social media. I don't really

know yet. The the thing is I kind of like I really enjoyed making these videos from day one. That was kind of cool but that wasn't really possible for the the next game that we're making because we were still working on Ritual of the Raven as well. So we didn't want to be like hey, we haven't finished this game yet but also do you want to look at the cool new thing we're working on even though it wasn't like right it's like something that that most game devs do like at the at the end of the project try and look into the new thing because you kind of have to like do the new stuff as well. Um and like put in some hours every week and and work on something new because To keep your sanity basically. That as well, yeah. But also to have something to do once you're done. And like I don't know sometimes you are going to have to like get funding again. So you kind of have to have something next. Um yeah, so that was already not possible to do. And then there was like oh it would be cool if we could announce it in a big showcase. So now we can't talk about it because it

has to be like a surprise. And I don't really know how I feel about not talking about the game. I wish I could just show everyone everything I'm doing all of the time. But this kind of not how it works in a way. And I kind of have to wait a little bit longer until I can actually show the stuff. Um but I'm really looking forward to being able to show more of everything. Everything that's going on. There are different philosophies about this, right? There's the the very open development approach where you show everything from day one. Then there's also but also some people who say it's actually not so good for your vision to show it too early because all of the opinions you're going to get are going to water down your vision and basically going to become too washed out if you show it too early before you have a good idea of what you want to make. And then, yeah, what you said, right? If you want to keep it for a showcase or announcement or something, that's also sometimes a factor, of course.
Yeah. So, we'll we'll see how this one goes, and then maybe for the next one,

we'll do it differently again and show it from day one, but we'll see. But your as a studio, your plan is to stick to cozy games, or are you dipping your toes into other genres as well? Um I mean, we'll see. So far, it looks like this will be more of like the type of games that we're going to make, but also it's just the five of us, right? So, Mhm. maybe we'll change our mind next year, and we can just do that because we're just like we will just talk about it and then figure out what we want to do. I think it does make sense because we have an audience now that might like the next game as well, so it is makes it easier to like bring over people to the next game and and find an audience for the next game, but like I know that some of my co-founders really like like horror games and stuff, and they would really like to make a horror game, but I can't because then I won't sleep. So, I don't know if we're ever going to do that, maybe. Uh maybe we'll have to split up or something. But yeah, we'll see. I don't like I

can't say now if this is what we're going to do forever. I guess it also really depends on is there a market for this type of game? Maybe next year it doesn't work anymore, and like nobody wants to buy cozy games because there's something else that is cooler or like more interesting to people, then we'll do that, I guess.
I think it's at least going to be a relatively stable niche, and I I think one thing that you also mentioned is that the compe- at at least one thing you can notice is that the competition is getting higher, right? There are more people making these kind of games. Usually, that's that's a sign that more people are playing them. If more people get like if more developers get inspired to make these games, that probably means more people are playing them. Then Oh, yeah, true. And I And I think there's also a good chance that or at least that's what I believe that the the cozy games niche is going to split up into more defined areas because it's such a broad topic, and there's so many games that are not nothing like the other game, you

know? Um so, maybe it will split up into more genres. Yeah, there's There are already, I think you can see some of them forming, right? There's also this for example this uh simulator niche that is really strong on Steam at the moment, like these all of these uh shop coffee shop cart shop simulators, and a lot of them are doing really well. So, actually, I'm not even sure if it's fair to call that a small niche anymore. I think some of them are really really big. Yeah. Yeah. But there's lots of people interested in that, so I guess there's no harm in having lots of them.
Mhm. Yeah, also weird things like PowerWash Simulator, right? Like I love PowerWash Simulator. You know the game. Nice.
Yeah. I I did I thought it was really cool uh and like really relaxing and satisfying. What do you think is the difference between games and work then? Cuz if you look at it from the outside, PowerWash Simulator kind of looks like work, right? So, so what's the

difference between work and and games? Difficult question.
because there's there's so many games now that are like job simulators, right? Run a run a shop. Uh that would be work. Maybe it is because you don't actually have to do something. You don't actually have to physically move. I guess that is a part that you just want to sit on the couch and like see something satisfying happening. Right? I mean, that that is like how how dopamine works. Like you do something that is effort, and then in the end you see a result, and then you get the dopamine from it. But if you can can like skip the effort part and just go right to the result without actually having to move, I guess that is like great for the brain. That's my guess.
Okay. Okay. Okay, so it's like these games are often like romanticized versions also where actually you don't have to power wash the same spot like 10 times till that pesky spot disappears, just like Yeah, and you also don't have to do the taxes and like handle all the annoying

customer emails. Right? So, you only get the nice parts of the business, just not the stuff that you don't really want to do. Like talk to your talk to your tax advisor and like stuff like that.
Right? So, also in in Sticky Business, there's a part of the game where you just pack the boxes, right? From a gameplay perspective, it seems so silly because all you do is you drag the stickers into the box, and you close the box. But
Yeah, and there's there's also no reward for doing it properly. You can just throw it in, and it can look ugly, and nobody will complain. And that that was a thing that we talked about for a long while. Also, same with like creating the stickers. There's no algorithm that decides if your sticker looks good or not. And we were thinking, like is this like can we do it like that? Is it Is this like a game if you're not even like getting a reward for doing it right? Um but I'm I'm really happy that we did

it in this way um because for some reason the fantasy for for most people is so strong that they want to make it right. So, it's for some weird reason, people care about the the the customers in the game um and they don't want to disappoint them. So, they they make it nice, and that is Maybe that is why it's why it's so nice for them because they want to do it, and then they do it, and the the reward is they get to look at it it looking nice and feeling like, oh, I did did this for this person. So, motivation is more internal. That's true. And in the kind of games I make, you always have to be quite careful that people don't optimize the fun out of their own experience, right? If you have something like a high score, or if you have health, then people very quickly get into this optimization mode where where they basically optimize everything to just get a better score or something.

But if you don't really have a score, if you don't really have a lose state, then I think people are a lot more inclined to just follow their own fun, probably, right? Yeah, so there is um a thing in Retro Raven where you can actually optimize it in a way that we didn't intend. Um and we only realized that towards the end of development. We were like, "Hm, do we do something about it, or should we just let them do it?" Um and in the end, we decided to just let them do it. Um and what you can do is So, usually, it's supposed to be like that. You you have these fields, and then you put them on the ground, and then the constructs walk over them and and work on all the different fields, like 3 by 3 or 4 by 4. You don't actually have to do it. You can just let them work in the same place and like grow grow the the fruits um and it's It is a little bit faster. It's not that much faster, just a little. Um but you you need less space. You

don't need these these fields. So, it is a way to optimize. And some people came into our Discord and were like, "Hey, is this Can I actually do this? Is there going to be like Am I going to be punished for this in some way? Is like Are like the fruits worse? Or I don't know." And we're like, "No, you can you can just do it. If you want to do it, you can just do it. Um but most people don't because it looks ugly, and they want to have a nice farm. So, the reward is basically just it doesn't look ugly. Mhm. Yeah, so And like it was a big discussion, and like some of us were like, "No, this can't We can't let them do this because it's ugly." But in the end, like I'm I'm happy the way it is because people can just decide if they want to do it. Mhm. But that's also because there's um there's no time pressure or no no high score, no efficiency score or something, right? You can just if if you want to have it pretty, you'll just maybe take a couple minutes longer and still get the same results more or

less, so. Yeah, but I mean, yeah, it's you get money from it, right? And then you can use it to buy different things. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. There there's some small incentives. But like for example, for a for like our first game Islanders, this was a very big concern for us to make sure that people actually build nice cities. So, we very carefully constructed the scoring rules so that if when people optimize for high scores, it actually makes for for nice cities, right? But is is is that game not kind of cozy?
Yeah, yeah, I would say so. Islanders is probably the most cozy game we made so far, but it's I I guess it's a dif- different kind of cozy because it's a very much like the more the puzzly feels. It's very much a puzzle very optimization focused game. It's not not about building creatively, even though there is a creative mode. But it's a very

very optimization driven, for sure. Okay. But it like the the vibe and the the aesthetics kind of kind of feel Now that you say it, I actually haven't never thought about Islanders as a cozy game, but I guess you're Yeah, I guess you're kind of right, yeah. You could fit it into that niche, probably, yeah. Sometimes I wonder if it would have done better as like a pure sandbox game. Well, we won't know that.
there are a lot of very popular games like that where you just build a town, but without high scores and and puzzles, right?
Do you know a specific one? I'm I mean, like Townscaper, for example.
Yeah, sure. Towns- Yeah, Townscaper is also Really? Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, I know the the types of games you're talking about now. So, you mean these these toy toy-like games essentially almost where it's like building building Legos in a way, yeah. Yeah. And if you had done that with Islanders, you would have been like very ahead of your time. True. That was like when when did that came out?

Been a while. I think it was Was it not sure if it was before or after Townscaper. I think it was before, but I might be wrong.
Yeah, I don't know. Let's get to Ritual of the Raven then. I guess. Um, so this was the the game you originally planned to make first.
Uh, what was the initial idea or the initial pitch? Was it always meant to be a a programming farming game or did that sort of evolve during development? It was the the thing from the beginning. It um, the original idea or like the the thought of wanting to do some programmy game was inspired by Final Fantasy XII. Actually, I don't know if you've ever played that. Nope. Um, but what what you do there is you have your companions and they have um, a system that's called Gambit system. And what you do is you give them instructions. Like for example, it's like um, if your health is below 50% use the healing magic. Um,

if you see an enemy, attack it. And then like it has resistance to fire, attack it with something else. Um, and then you could make like pretty long lists of of what they should do. Me and my my husband, we we love playing that and we were like, oh, it would be so cool if to use that for a different kind of game. And we were like, oh, it would be cool if it could be like a maybe like a farming game where you can tell um, like the little creatures how to farm the yeah, for example, like if it's ripe, harvest it. And if it's not ripe, water it and stuff like that. Um, and we we played around with that idea for a little bit. And that was even before we started the company. When we started the company, we were thinking about so what what should we do? Like what would be a cool concept? I was kind of like at that time I did a lot of workshops. Um, like coding workshops for girls. And I noticed that they were really they it was really cool for them because they hadn't had never done something like this before. And we

did very very easy things like Bitsy or like Twine. And like a lot of them were like very into it. Uh, not all of them. Some some thought like this is boring. But like there were some that were also having like great ideas on what kind of games to make. And I really enjoyed that. And I thought, oh, it would be so cool if when I when like I start and like work on my own thing um, with the others, it would be cool to do something that maybe inspires someone to maybe look into programming because it was also something that I never like when I was in school, this was never a thing that I thought I could ever do because nobody told me.
How did you get into programming then? I studied mobile media and they advertised it as this is going to be a design course. But it wasn't. It was
You got scammed. It was computer science. Yeah, I got scammed. I got scammed into into becoming a programmer. Um, yeah, and then it was a computer science course and I was like, okay, this is kind of fun. Okay.

Um, yeah, so yeah, for me it was just coincidence. Actually. Yeah, so I kind of wanted something to do something like that. Um, and then this is kind of like the the spark that made this idea um, then then we sat together with everyone and we thought about, okay, what what could be a cool game that we could make. And as it is with designing a game like like this in in teams uh, it it then expanded into, oh, let's maybe add a story. Oh, let's maybe add customizable gardens or Yeah. Did it sort of feature creep from from there or like What what was the process? Yeah, I think I mean, I think it is it's not like this game has like so many different features that I would call it feature creep. Um, it is it is a big game. But it it only I think it only feels so big because we only made it with five people and it took so long. Yeah.

But developing the idea was more of a like, okay, what can we do with this mechanic? And then it was like, oh, it would be cool if we had decorations. And then also this is kind of like um, industry standard for these types of games like life simulations. You kind of want to have decorations as well. And you kind of have to have villagers. Uh, so I guess we have to do that as well. And then the story bit the story bit was the part that was unclear for the longest time to be honest. We're like, oh, it would be cool to have some sort of story. And we thought about like, oh, there would be like a witch. Um, and we want this um, grimoire that is empty and that you have to fill up again. Um, and that was inspired actually by uh, Stardew Valley the community center because we thought it's so fun to collect all these things into the community center um, and have like collections and have to finish it. So, that was the original idea behind the grimoire thing. And then it was like, okay, there will be like rituals and these have ingredients and you have to collect them. And that was like the

basic idea that we had for all the story. And then once we we actually started working like after after we signed the contract with a publisher and then we started working on it. Then it was like, okay, so now we kind of have to figure out the story because we don't really have anything. Um, and then we worked together with a writer and then somehow this spiraled into this huge story that it is now. So, yeah, maybe this could have been smaller. I think the story is a little bit excessive for this for the size of the game. Yeah, I have to say for me like knowing what it takes, it does look like a very like this does look like a very big game also for your your team size. Lots and lots of arts, lots lots of content. So, I guess what I'm saying is like um, if you say, let's make a programming game about farming, if you if you just do that, it would be a much smaller game probably, right? It would be maybe just one screen of of like a garden with like one creature walking around and that that would be the game, right? I wonder if like would you agree to my gut feeling that maybe you tried too many tried to

combine too many things at once or are you in hindsight like, no, that was actually still an interesting combination and you're like grateful that you did that or what's your um, hindsight way of thinking about that? Mhm. Yeah, I think so in the end I definitely think it was just way too big. I was like, oh, just it's just too much. Um, and I think there would have been some ways to make it smaller. But since we had already signed the publishing contract and we had the milestones laid out, that point there was no going back really. So, it kind of had to be the thing that we said it would be at the beginning of production. We were like, okay, now this is what we're going to make. So, when when we started production, we were like, okay, maybe the story isn't necessary. And then we started working on the story and then we're like, oh, this is interesting. And like we we kind of liked how it turned out and like how it how it played out and how it made all the all the characters kind of like interesting. Um, and what I really like about it is that they kind of feel like all of them

have some little story and they're kind of interesting and have their own little personality and then they interact with each other as well. And this is what I really liked about it. And then we were like, okay, well, maybe then then let's do it because it's because we like it. And in the end I I still think the story turned out really good and I really like what it became. Um, but it was just so much work to build all of that. Not only to write the story, but also implementing all of it. That took forever. So, was it like you had this more or less kind of sandboxy game and then you built the story on top of that essentially? Or did you develop the two things alongside each other? Yeah, it was it was alongside um, during production. We were like, okay, so at first we need to figure out what the beginning and the end is and then we're going to build it step by step um, because we also have the four different regions. And then we built a region,

figured out what's going to happen here. Got it. But like the the core structure of the story or all of the gameplay is always you you gather ingredients either through farming or maybe through exploring the world, right? And then Mhm. um, that helps you move on to the next section of the game or of the story. And Yeah. Yeah, and figure something out about about the characters and like the the mystery that's that's happening. And in and in the end what you're trying to do is like save save your your mentor that disappeared through one of these portals. And also stabilize the portals so no nobody else comes through the portals anymore. Well, to be fair, hearing it like that, it does sound all does sound very compelling. Um, Right? It just took me a while to even fully understand the vision. As you said, it's not something that like comes to you that you understand immediately, but
Yeah, and it definitely turned out to be difficult to explain all of this in the tutorial. I think the beginning part of the game is just way too slow. Looking back, I'm like, oh, this this mechanic

should have worked like that, but that's not If if we did that and like continued to work on it, we still wouldn't be finished. And we would work on it for 2 more years or 3 more years and then it would never come out. So, I think at some point we had to say, okay, well, it is what it is. But yeah, looking back, it would have been better if the beginning was faster and the mechanics were a little bit different.
Yeah, for for one of my games, Will You Snail, I have some strange regrets. I wonder if this is something you can relate to with Ritual of the Raven. It's kind of um, I made a lot of stupid mistakes for Will You Snail and it kind of resulted in a game that was not super easy to market. Like I think I could have done a lot of things better better to make it more marketable in a way. But also a lot of people really like the way it turned out and every every time I talk about the mistakes I made with Willy Snowman they're like How dare you say that? I love the game. Stop saying it was a mistake.

Um so clearly there's like I'm I'm maybe maybe it's also okay to acknowledge that there's also value in games beyond marketability and how well it sells, right? There's also like maybe you as you mentioned maybe you made something really special for for someone who got into programming because of that.
Yeah, and in the end the reviews are kind of good. Um and like people enjoy playing it. So I guess it can't be that bad. Right. Right. So you're you're not having any big regrets. You're you're happy with how it turned out.
No, yeah. I yeah. I'm yeah. Got it. I can I see that you can't say too much about your future projects but maybe like for the the rough direction you said like shorter projects, right? Yes. Are you going in the simulator-y direction or in the creative direction for our future projects? What's like the direction? So it So what we're trying to do is make something that people who liked Sticky Business will like. Mhm.

So leaning into that a bit more, yeah. That makes sense.
Yeah, so this is like the direction it will. So both simulator-y and creative potentially. Potentially. Yeah. Yeah, okay. How did you develop the art for Ritual of the Raven cuz honestly it's looks looks very strong and I'm I'm very impressed that it was fully made by one person. This is really crazy. Thanks. Yeah. So it basically it's our artist made a concept and showed it to us and we were like, yeah. Let's do it. That looks amazing. No, it's really not that complex. It was it was really just like, okay, so we So we know we want to do like a farming game-ish game. Um so that there was the option of doing it like um just top-down Stardew Valley-like but then it would have looked exactly like Stardew Valley and we didn't really want that. And I don't I don't really know actually um

how Sophie came up with that. I thought maybe we were like, oh it would be cool to have maybe like an isometric view um and then she she made something and we're like, yeah. Mhm. And then it's basically it it basically looked very similar to what it looks like now. Um the it was like a concept of the the first world with the grass and stuff.
Yeah, and then from that uh once we had that she made some more concepts for the other regions as well uh once we knew like what basically they would look like. Um but yeah what what what what in the first concept was like this green world that is like kind of colorful but also has these uh neon signs like some some more like um really bright pink in there. And then I think that is something that she does in a lot of her her art actually. So it it's I think it's just her art style which she like.
Are there any game design topics that keep you up at night or what

What do you think about when when you think about making games? Like what are the the problems that occupy occupy your mind? Do you think about marketing or do you think about how to get funding? Like what's what's on your mind mostly? So for Ritual of the Raven I was thinking a lot at night. It kept me awake um a lot and I think all of us at some point because it was I mean the idea kind of worked with the constructs and and like doing the farming with them but there were some like pretty big issues that we couldn't figure out how to solve. That had mainly to do with with the pacing because it took a long while to grow the stuff but there wasn't a lot of things for you to do obviously because it's automated. So we kind of had to figure out how do we how do we do it so that it's still fun? Um and we kept making it faster and faster but in the end

we decided, okay, we need to give the constructs an ability to actually grow the stuff instantly because otherwise it's just not fun to to wait for a day because it in test in tests we found out that people would just go to bed at like 8:00 a.m. Uh and and no they would go up at 8:00 and go to bed at 9:00 because they were just waiting for the stuff to grow. Uh and that is obviously not very fun. So yeah, that was something that like many nights I was laying in bed like, I don't know what to do about this. Mhm. Um and yeah, with with the knowledge that I had have now I would definitely do a lot of this very differently and like maybe do something like the crops don't grow at night at all but they only grow when the constructs do something to them or something but yeah, at some point it's just too late to to change all of that. And like the the card that make made the stuff grow instantly was came very late in the in the development process like I don't know maybe two months before we were finished and we're like, okay, this we kind of have to solve this problem

now. Yeah. Mhm. So this was something that that yeah, kept me awake a lot. But yeah, now I think I just I don't want to be awake at night. I want to sleep. So I'm trying not to not to think about it too much. Right. And so now for for your next projects like what are the things you're thinking about now? Is like how do we make a game that's more marketable or how do we make a game that appeals more to the Sticky Business fans or how do we do social media? Or what what what what are you thinking about now? Mhm. So I think right now it's more like specific mechanics because we're very much at the beginning and trying to figure out how everything works together but it's less stressed and not like, I need to figure out this right now but like, okay, we're in the process of figuring out how this mechanic is going to work and if I won't figure it out today I might figure it out tomorrow. Like to be honest, working on this new game and

also working on Sticky Business felt a lot different than working on Ritual of the Raven because it's not as set and also I don't really know how to explain it but for Sticky Business once we had the idea and the basic things set up it was like, okay, this all makes sense. This is how it's supposed to be. Mhm. And I think that never really or like very rarely happened at Ritual of the Raven where like, okay, this is this is the right solution to this. Um but now again it's happening sometimes and that makes me feel a lot more relaxed about it cuz I'm like, oh okay, yeah, this is how it's supposed to be and this is going to work and it makes me feel much more confident about all of this and this happened a lot with Sticky Business where like it clicked into place like a almost like a puzzle piece like, oh okay, we need to figure out how this is going to work and then we thought about it and worked it out and then it worked and we're like, yes, this works. I know that feeling you're talking about. Do you But do you What do you How do you think how do you get that

feeling? How do you make things click into place? I don't know. Right now I think it's maybe just really like the idea. If the idea works it will work.
Got it. Kind of. Cuz the This is another thing that I've been thinking a bit about recently is uh the more I talk to devs the more I feel like like this this process of locking yourself in either with with a publisher that gives you milestones or with funding that also locks you into a specific idea. Like for example there's prototype funding, right? Where you get funding for your specific prototype. It it kind of locks your idea in a bit too early, right? So Mhm. I wonder if if that's something you agree with would have would have been better for Ritual of the Raven if you had more freedom during the development process maybe.
Yeah, definitely. But the thing is there was no money and we needed to pay rent, you know? Like that's a nice nice thing thing to wish for. Like I wish it would be like this all the time and now

we're in a position where we can give ourselves the time to just figure it out and like if it doesn't work we're going to just going to do something but that's not the reality for most people, right? You kind of have to get funding and find a publisher because someone needs to pay the bills. But it's also Yeah, definite definitely also with prototype funding I guess the problem sometimes is that even to get prototype funding you have to have like a very clear idea of what the game's going to be even though you're going to make a prototype so you actually have no idea what game you're going to make and then yeah, you kind of feel like you need to make the game that at first you said you were going to make.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just I guess I'm just wondering if maybe because it's also in the best interest of publishers and also for the people who provide these uh the this these kind of funding and so on that the the game turns out to be successful, right? So I I wonder if they could maybe sometimes do a bit more to to open these kind of doors for the developers to change their mind later on cuz that typically or oftentimes makes the games better.
Yeah. And and I think there are publishers like that.

Sure. Of course there are.
and Yeah, yeah. like yeah, for example when we worked on Sticky Business um even with a publisher it wasn't like that where where someone from the outside told us like, you got to fix this right now because there's a milestone tomorrow. It was like And also I think you can kind of understand where publishers that do have these kind of schedules and so on where where they're coming from because there's obviously also the there are also the developers who change their mind constantly and they don't get anywhere so. Yeah. Yeah, and it's a lot of money, right? It's not like just a few thousand, but like sometimes it's a lot of money. So, if I would give someone half a million, I would want to know what they're up to, I guess. You don't want to have them change their mind constantly and so on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I see that as well. There was another question that I wanted to ask. Yeah, maybe next just what advice would you have for people who want to get into cozy games? Cuz I think it's as you said, it's a lot quite appealing for a lot of developers and

also to just make something small to make something chill. What what advice would you have? Where do you start with that? What what do you should should you pay attention to?
it's not too different from like general advice on how to make a game. Right? You you kind of find something that hopefully people are interested in. And like I think generally it's a good idea to check first if there is anyone interested at all. Right? Make a make a little video or like a little prototype and and and check if this is going to be interesting. I think also what's what's helpful is to just see what's what's out there. I think maybe some sometimes people are afraid, oh, I don't want to don't just want to do whatever someone else has made. But like looking at the competition is really valuable, right? You want to know what what people bought. Sometimes there are there are games that I look at and like play and I'm like, I don't like this. This is not fun, but it has like millions of people

playing that. So, clearly there is something about those games and like trying to figure out why people are interested in this, I think it's really helpful and then see how you can make your own spin on it to make it fun. Yeah, and I think a big part is also having having a team that that can then actually make whatever you want to make. Um right? Because if if we decided now we should make a a 3D game we don't have a 3D artist. How would we do that? Right? Sure. Um maybe that's an easy example, but like I don't know. I think like some kind of interest in this kind of genre and like knowing what's going on is really helpful. So, I guess yeah, I think those are maybe like the first few steps to take.
interest? Let's say I have maybe an idea for a cozy game I could make. Should I just post on social media a bit about it a bit or how do I find out if people are interested? That's what I would do. Yeah. I think I would um and that's what we what we we did with the new game. We posted a video

on TikTok, but in on our main account, but we posted it on another account and told nobody about it and now it's private again. Um but to at least see like is is anybody going to be interested in that? And then we saw with this video, it wasn't like a crazy viral video, but it had like I don't know if a few tens of thousands of views. We're like, okay. At least there is some people who would like to play this and some and some comments and questions and stuff. But I guess it it really depends. Like I think with the type of game that we're making TikTok works quite well. Um Reddit, for example, doesn't work at all or maybe we're just not good enough at that. It might be a skill issue on our side, but I think for some people Reddit is like a great place to to get interest and like see if someone is interested.
like the the Dark Souls of game dev marketing. Yeah, and I think it's so frustrating. Yes, and then you're going to be banned you're going to be banned forever just because you made a mistake.

Uh yeah, it's just no. I'm so afraid to post anything on Reddit, so we just don't. We did it a few times and then stopped.
they just want to be left alone, to be honest. Some developers make it very great, so Yeah. Yeah, so I guess if Reddit is a platform that you are on anyways and like you know how it works then it might make sense to to make a post on Reddit as well.
I think so. I think so. Yeah, I think you need need to be a regular Reddit user to understand what you can get away with and what you can't get away with.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Do you do any playtesting for your games or how do you playtest cozy games? Is also like similar to other games? So, I guess it would be probably similar, but what we did for Witch of Raven was kind of interesting because there was a platform and we didn't we didn't really do that. It was the publisher who set it up, so I don't even know the name of the platform, to be honest. Um but the platform it would also record video and make a a very bad AI overview of what people

said. But it I mean, it was helpful for like first the first impression and like grouped stuff together and yeah, that's that it was something that we did later on. So, while we were already in development and towards the towards the end. When also we couldn't really change that much. But like we did change a few things after that. Um so, I guess that would be something that I probably would have done a little bit earlier now. But yeah, also we did uh just our own tests with our own community on um Discord. For Witch of Raven, we actually did a test where we would be in in a video call with people. Um and like watch them play. That was kind of cool. Um but obviously that is not a thing that a lot of players want to do because it's kind of uncomfortable, I think, for a lot of people to give feedback to other people's faces and they wouldn't be kind of right? They wouldn't say mean things or like really want to say the things they didn't like. Um it it was still helpful because you can actually you can see stuff in their

faces, right? And when they are confused, you will see it. So, um that was something that was kind of interesting. Yeah, what we're doing now is more of a like we just give people a build and let them play and just let them write stuff in the Discord channel to see if they like it or not. And we'll see how that goes. I'm I'm very curious to see how that goes because the game is in a state right now that is there's not a lot there. It looks terrible and [Laughter] But you're already testing. That's cool. Mhm. Yeah, we should first we showed them a little trailer and asked for their opinions on that and we'd made some changes and now probably next week we're going to going to show a few people a little a little build and then see what they say.
Mhm. Test or test or test.
I kind of like it now to just have them in the Discord and just let them just write in there. So, it's more of a discussion than a fill out this form. This is I I kind of like it right now. So, we'll see how it goes, but because it makes more of a like I can actually ask. So, someone says, I didn't like this thing and I'm like,

okay, what exactly is it that you don't like? And like I have I'm going to change it like this. How do you like do you like this better? So, and this is kind of fun. Go back and forth actually and talk talk to real people about it. I'm starting to get the feeling that different kinds of games probably require different kinds of playtesting. Mhm. For example, one thing I imagine for cozy games or especially for creative games I I think it's a bit more difficult to be creative when somebody's watching over your shoulder, for example, right? It's like you have like drawing on your own is kind of chill, but drawing when somebody's watching over your shoulder and they're like, what are you doing there? It's like not sure if that's such an accurate display of how I would normally play then, yeah. But yeah, so this is the question is what are you testing for, right? Are you testing for fun? Are you testing to find bugs? And then depending on what you're testing for different thing makes sense most of the time. Mhm. Yeah, this is a very early test, so we only worked on this for like 2 months

now and there's not a lot there, but it's kind of interesting to see like how people interact Mhm. with the game so early on. Yeah, I guess the first thing you want to find out is is there something there or are we crazy? Yeah, exactly. That's also where Paul and I are now with our next project. We think we think we have a banger game idea, but we we haven't tested we haven't verified if we're crazy or not yet. Have you have you shown it anywhere or is it is it a secret It's No, we've literally started just a few days ago, so we haven't shown it
shown it almost to nobody Ooh, exciting. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. I guess the next question if we go through the process would be how do you market cozy games? I have I have a sort of I have the feeling the answer is once again going to be sort of similar to every game, right? Or do you think there are any I don't know. We we've tried a diff a

few different things. Like I don't know. We thought, oh, maybe Pinterest is a good idea because that is like more of aesthetic maybe girly platform where maybe cozy games could work. Um but I don't know. I guess Pinterest is also a platform for its own and you really have to like figure out how Pinterest works to make it work. And we just don't. Like so maybe it could have worked if we spent more time, but then again not knowing if it would work put that much effort in. I would have also thought that Instagram would be a platform where that works more, but I'm not so sure about that now.
Yeah. Um so, I guess yeah, it's really because you kind of just want to reach players. Yeah. And and that works the same, right? And also I think one of the biggest thing is just Steam events and festivals, stuff like that to to kick the Steam algorithm to work, right? So,
For Sticky Business, like after your initial viral tweet that you got

where do you feel that most of the marketing or traffic come from? Was it was it from Steam? Was it from YouTube Let's Plays? What's your gut feeling? Um I think it was a combination of a bit of our own social media, but also then content creators because as soon as we had the demo, this got picked up. Um and I think part of the reason was that we had um a Twitch integration. That was that was kind of cool and made made people want to play the game, so I think that was a maybe a smart marketing move as well to have that because then there was like constantly someone on Twitch playing the game and I think that was probably a big thing that people a lot of people just saw it. And then Steam events like we were very lucky actually with the timeline of events that happened. Once we announced I mean we announced without like any festival or just announced ourselves, but after that can't quite remember what festivals there were, but there was like basically lined up perfectly for the demo job there was something and we got in. Then

there was wholesome direct we got in. Then there was some other event like Games Germany right after that and then was the Steam Next Fest and that it was just like one thing after the other and that was just That was just being lucky.
Got the sticker festival, then the business festival, then the cozy festival. Yeah, yeah. I don't think there was a sticker festival, but yeah, it was just like Yeah.
okay. Mhm. I see. Yeah, I think definitely these these Steam events played a big part.
Yeah. That's also my my theory is that you basically only have two ways to market your game anyways and if it's Steam and it's content creators, so you sounds like you got a fair share of both. Great for you.
Yeah, but I think that stuff like having your own social media and like the people who decide who gets into festivals seeing this game is kind of popular. Mhm. I think that makes a difference into like if you get in or not.
Fair.

Yeah, yeah, fair. But I don't know. I've never been a jury on that. That's just what I think. Yeah, yeah. And of course you you know, you need some external traffic to kickstart the algorithm, so you need some some external sources to to draw some some initial wishlists, right? Makes sense. You reminded me of one thing that I definitely wanted to ask about and that is the Sticky Business DLCs. Mhm. How did How did those come to be? So when we signed the the publishing contract we had in there that we would make at least I think two or three updates and I can't remember if it if the DLC was But I think the idea of of making a DLC was around a lot longer because it was like oh, it's kind of easy to add content to this game. That's like pretty cool about this. Mhm. And then we made the first few updates and people really like that new stuff was coming. Then it's kind of like because the longer the game is going on now the higher the the sales percentage

gets, so it gets cheaper. But if we add a DLC people like actually like we can see it in the data that lots of people who buy the game just buy the DLC as well. So that kind of makes up for that. So the game doesn't get as get cheaper that fast. So when when we did the first DLC and like people were like quite happy about it. We were like okay, cool. That was cool. But now we're working on the new thing. Let's go. And then our publisher was like hey, do you want to make another DLC? And we're like no. And like then they explained to us like the the thought behind that that it like works with the with the price and stuff. And that it's I mean it's it's a marketing beat as well and like and a reason for Steam to give you featuring and so there's like lots of positives about it, but we were we were kind of scared that people would

get mad and be like oh, why do you like want more money from us? You're just greedy and stuff like that. And some people did especially because we had achievements in the DLC and people got so bad about it and I didn't even understand because I didn't really I didn't know that people are so crazy about achievements. I thought like it's a a nice thing if you get an achievement, but like if you don't get an achievement then like who cares. But people who care a lot and so having achievements in a DLC meant you cannot get 100% of the achievements without buying the DLC and people accusing us like oh, you do you did this on purpose. You are so greedy and you want us to buy the DLC so we can finish the game. We're like no, actually we just thought if we make new content people would want new achievements, so we just added them because we thought we should. But yeah, generally people didn't get

mad about us making new content, but we were like hey, this is really cool that there's a new DLC. They want new stories as well and people were very happy about it, so we decided to make another DLC and we actually didn't do that ourselves because as I told you before we didn't want to grow. And so the decision basically was we could hire more people because we needed to make the new game. So we could hire new people to help us make the DLC or we just outsource it which we decided to do and we got another studio on board to help us with that and in the end another studio Digitals worked on the DLC on the two other DLCs and and made them for us basically. And then we made us the second DLC that also had achievements because what we did then was we made like a poll in our Discord server and asked like hey guys, we're really unsure like should we add achievements to the to the next DLC? Everyone's like Yeah, we want achievements. So we did it again and then people were even like even more people
Oh, no.

But we asked. But like Yeah, I mean the the thing with completionists this is a lesson I've heard from multiple different developers. Also the the Tukana people I talked with last week they had a story about this as well. Like completionists are crazy people. They They get very very mad if you have like also if you if you if you have some very unpleasant achievements and they're like why do you make me go through this pain as if like you're forcing them to get the achievement, but that's like how it seems to them. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's yeah, if it's like your hobby I I guess I understand. So the third DLC didn't have achievements. And now this is also and then people came and like why is there no achievements in the new DLC? What the heck? I'm like No, of course. Yeah, that's how it goes. But I I guess I just wanted to ask if all did were the DLCs worth it financially?
Yeah, definitely. It was

yeah, even even outsourcing them it was like the money came came back to us that we paid. And I mean people were happy about it. They were asking about it, so we're like yeah, it I guess it makes sense and now yeah, there will probably be another one.
Cool. From a quick nerd question in case you know anything about this how how is it setting up a DLC for your game is like is it is it as annoying as I imagine in the Steam backend to get that to work or is it relatively easyish?
I haven't done that in the backend, so I don't know actually. I think it's like I haven't heard someone complain that much, so I guess it must be like Okay. okay enough. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, but but also the way we do the DLCs is like kind of sneaky and everything is in the main game and it's just unlocked if you buy it. So it's not like you have to download. So I don't know if if how it would work if you had the stuff outside. Yeah, I guess

was something I was I was afraid of because I I heard that people got mad about something like that for other games, but I guess our like our audience just didn't really care. I think what people get mad about is if you launch with a DLC and you have like content behind an extra paywall at launch, but I think if you add DLC over time then it doesn't really matter if it's in the game or if it's like actually download I think it's doesn't really make a difference, right? Yeah, I mean I can understand why it's kind of annoying because you have to get an update and you download all of the stuff and you can't use it. I understand people would be annoyed. Yeah, fair. But I I in the case of Sticky Business is a couple of megabytes for new stickers, right? Yes, yeah. It's not like it's 10 gigabytes of download or anything. Yeah. Interesting. So do you think more indie developers should consider making DLC for their game? Can you imagine this working for more games or was it specifically for the case of Sticky Business that was just a good fit in

that for that game?
I think it's definitely not a bad idea and it's definitely something that that we're thinking about for the next game as well. I think it's more of a I don't know. So for example, we never did early access and we won't do that. And people call us crazy because they're like you're wasting a beat, you know, but I'm like oh, we could just make a DLC and then that's the beat.
That's a that's a good take actually. Maybe even a better beat than cuz often times you see people think they get two launches, but they often times they only end up getting one. Like the early access launch often times kind of is the launch and then the 1.0 launch sometimes nothing happens. Sometimes the 1.0 launch is really big. That also happens, but it's not not always. Yeah, and I and I think I'd rather make the main game a little bit cheaper thinking about okay, but then we're going to add more content later on that you can buy or or you just don't. You can decide that for yourself than doing early access because that is making me like

thinking about that I already feel anxious about it because like oh, you're going to have a road map and then every two weeks you're going to make a build and if you if you don't add new things, then people will be very mad and like I don't want this. And then launch it and then if people are interested and they're going to ask for things, then I can be like, "Cool, I'm going to do that." And like we're going to add the thing, but we're going to add it and add it when it's done. Yeah, that makes sense. Also, you you want to get closure on your project at some point, right? Like early access.
as well. Yeah, I mean I guess it's okay with with the size of our games where it's not that big, but if I if I had to do early access on Witch of the Waven and work on it for another year, I think I would have gone completely crazy. Yeah.
Yep, yep, I can imagine that. I think the worst-case scenario that can happen when you do early access is that the early access

kind of doesn't go as well as you planned, but you already promised this big road map, so now you have to keep working on it even though it's not even really worth it to keep working on it. Some cases of that as well, so. Yeah, or you have to abandon it and and and then I don't know, it doesn't look good. It's not a good look for the studio, no. Yeah. Yeah, we can probably get away with it once, but if you do it again, I guess then then it's over. Did you do early access or did you did you release?
I released early access once for Thronefall. The other games were without early access. For Thronefall, it worked out okay, but we did not we did not make any One thing we were very strict about was we did not make a lot of promises at all. We had we did not have a road map, for example. So, we were just like
Oh, I didn't know you could do that.
think you need a road map. You just need to fill out like the like Steam asks you this one question about what do you plan to add during early access? You have to fill that out, but you can kind of fill it out a bit

wishy-washy. Yeah, okay.
don't really have to make any promises to to players, but that being said, being in early access, people do expect regular updates. That is something they expect whether you have a road map or not, so you if you take too long, they're going to say dead game. Yeah, but to be honest, I think the same happens if you if you do a full release, right? They will still think there's going to be more, right? In a lot of cases. So, we had some some comments like that that would be like that were more like expect not like straight out expecting stuff to happen, but like saying it as if there's going to be more content and more stuff coming, even though it's just a full release and we'd never said there's going to be more, and it's like it is the story ended and like there is everything in the game. It is the game is finished. There's literally nothing where I would say, "Oh, I would really need to do an update or a DLC." Um to to make this game the way I envisioned it or like it's just like it's done. Um but

there was I remember there was one bug report about that you can get stuck in some place, and then someone was like, "Yeah, I think like at least for the early access phase now, you should um add an unstuck button." And I think lots of people just assume that if a game comes out, it's early access. Yeah. Right? So, this person was like, "Oh, this game is just new, so it's early access." There's kind of automatically this expectation that games will receive updates. It's kind of baked in nowadays, and I think you have to kind of give in to that a little bit as a developer, so you can't be like publishing it and then immediately go offline for months. So, if you if you publish a game, then uh nowadays, you're kind of obligated to do bug fixes and minor updates for at least a month or so. And some people expect more. Yeah, yeah, I mean bug fixes totally make sense, right? That you fix everything that's not working and maybe and maybe small improvements is what what we're doing now, improving

some things that are like really confusing. But like other than that, there's not going to be content. And I'm like a little nervous about like what's going to happen in a few months when people realize there is no new content, what's going to happen? We'll see. I don't know. You didn't promise anything. Yeah, you didn't promise anything anywhere, so I'm not sure why what they would get mad about, but any game recommendations you would give to someone who is not so much into cozy games? Some interesting things we should check out. Ooh, I mean there is like a lot of cozy games that are like super popular that I guess I would tell you to start with if you want to like learn about cozy games. There's stuff like Animal Crossing and Stardew Valley, which is like really like genre-defining, I guess, right? To understand like what's happening. But I mean Unpacking was a great game, I loved that. What else? I think I really like games that are like a little bit more creative or also stuff like A Little to the Left was great. But those are all like games that that I know and like liked because

they are very similar to what we make and are like comparable. So, I guess that's just the type of game that I personally enjoy.
I think what's actually great about making cozy games is that they think they play really well with small scopes in theory, right? You can you can probably make very tiny games that still work very well.
Yeah, and and also it's a lot of these games are like really kind of new and there's not really something that you can really compare, so I think when we when we thought of Sticky Business and we're like, "Okay, so now we got to figure out what are like games that are very similar to this?" We're like, "Well, I mean, I guess A Little to the Left is similar, and then there is some some games that are like have a similar vibe, but I think lots of cozy games are really really have some really new ideas that you haven't seen in other games. And and now, of course, they're also copying everything, right? There's like a million clones of everything and like a million farming games as well, but there's also some very cool new ideas

that you haven't seen anywhere else before. Also, in this also we talked about this a bit earlier, but it's just interesting which themes or which fantasies you can get away with. There's also this game called something with a bookshop, Tiny Bookshop.
Tiny? Mhm. Tiny Bookshop. I I also I think also met the devs a while ago on some event, and I was skeptical about their idea when they when I heard them talk about it back then, but it it turned out really well. Yeah, I remember that. Cuz it's it's also such a such a weird niche idea, and it's just Yeah. Yeah, and I and I think you could kind of see that it appeals to a very specific sort of people, right? Because because it's it's very slow. And you don't really do a lot. It's really like really relaxing, I think. Uh-huh. Um and I I remember I played it I played the demo because I was on a jury for some award,

uh and then I thought, "Oh, I know what the game is about." And then I played it after release now, and there's like so much more things going on and like you can you can recommend books. And this is it's just so fun. I really I really enjoyed it. It's really really a good game.
Should check it out. Looks interesting, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you really should. Cool. Anything else you think we should talk about? Otherwise, we'll just call it quits. Yeah, sounds good. I think we covered Yeah. a lot of things.
Well, that was a lot of fun. Thanks a lot for your for making time for me. Appreciate it.