The Creator-Led Studio Playbook

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capital, making it by far the largest fund focused on gaming and interactive technology. Lightseed's team combines deep expertise in gaming with a global multi-stage investment platform and a culture that truly puts founders first. Selected investments include Epic Games, Snap, and Stability AI, as well as game designers and producers who led the creation of titles like Fortnite, Call of Duty, League of Legends, Valerant, Starcraft 2, and many more. For more information, simply go to gaming.lsvp.com or check out the details in the show notes. This episode is brought to you by Overwolf. With over 1,500 games supported, 178,000 creators, and 13 million monthly active users, Overwolf is the guild for in-game creators. Whether you're a gamer, creator, or game studio, Overwolf is the ultimate destination for integrating UGC into games. For game studios, Overwolf offers

Curse Forge for studios, a white label solution that lets game makers and publishers easily integrate mods safely and seamlessly into their games, both existing and new, at zero cost. It's battle tested by AAA studios and games including Craftton with Enzo, Studio Wildcard with Ark, Take Interactive, and others. Alongside this, Overwolf is the all-in-one platform that enables creators to build, distribute, and monetize in-game apps, mods, and game servers. In 2024, Overwolf paid over $240 million to in-game creators, proving that they truly value the talent and contributions of the gaming community. You can check out all Overwolf has to offer at overwolf.com or simply check out the link in the show notes. Now, let's jump into the episode. Welcome to the Navic Gaming podcast. I'm your host, Kaylee Moore, and today we're digging into what happens when a creator-led studio builds for UGC at scale. My guest today is Zach Letter,

the founder of Wonderworks Studio, maker of hit Roblox experiences, including three Spongebob titles this year alone. And if you're thinking Roblox again, we just listened to the Navic episode about the gang. Don't worry. In this episode, we're going to dive into how creator roots shape game design and distribution, how influencer native teams launch differently, and Wonder Works long-term bet on licensed IP. So, thanks for joining us, Zach. Can you start by introducing yourself in Wonderwork Studio?
Yeah, no, that intro was amazing. Um, yeah, so a little bit about my background. I was a lifelong gamer, always loved video games since I was like two. Um, and when I graduated high school, you know, YouTube was pretty new. Uh, in 2007, my brother showed me the website. And I kind of fell in love with the idea of making content on video games, but it was like such a new idea. And like technology wasn't great back then. It was like a lot of roundabout ways to make it happen. But, uh, over about an 11-year full-time influencer career, I amassed millions of

subscribers, billions of views, and really carved out my space in the YouTube gaming scene. Uh, especially very early on. I was one of the first YouTube gamers that hit a million subscribers and was just really there early back in the MCN days like Machinima and things like that. Uh, met my wife and she is also an influencer. In 2017, she began her career on Roblox. uh making videos on the platform about all different experiences on the platform and she's amassed tens of millions of followers and billions of views as well. And like because of her success on Roblox in 2019, we decided to co-ound Wonderwork Studios. And our thesis was, hey, we can make original IP using our influencer marketing knowledge to really ramp up these experiences on and off the Roblox platform. Because in my opinion, Roblox functions very much like YouTube when servicing games via the algorithm, just like servicing videos via the algorithm. So if you make a good video or you make a good game, you have a chance of success on either

platform. Um, and we started with an original IP, released it in 2020. Um, it exploded, generated millions of dollars in revenue, led our studio to raise some financing, and we expanded a little bit. Right now, we're a team of about 14 uh full-time people, all here in the US. Uh we have one Brazilian employee as well. He's great. Uh but our goal is really to lean into licensed experiences as we're kind of looking forward where the platform has a lot of noise. There's a lot of successful experiences. Experiences are constantly churning in and out of the top 25 and holding a mainstay position there has become harder and harder over the last few years, especially over the last 6 months. Uh so for us we believe licensing allows us to tackle a popular genre on the platform and also already gives us like an amplified voice as soon as we make that entry. So, we can enter a crowded genre and break down some of that noise because we have Spongebob or or some other very popular IP backing

our experience. And then with our experience that we have on the platform, we're making good games that monetize well that retain users and uh yeah, that that's kind of our thesis going forward.
That's great. And I can't wait to dive into the IP licensing part of it. But I really want to start with the backgrounds that you and your wife like as you mentioned are also co-founder being influencers in the gaming space I think is really unique like we see I think a lot of creators coming in and making different mods or in-game creations but I haven't seen that many creator to developer pipeline of studios. So, I wanted to talk a little bit about how your creator DNA shaped your game strategy and specifically the type of games you build on Roblox.
Yeah, I mean it definitely had influence. We had so much experience growing channels and brands on YouTube that we felt like it would translate to Roblox. Like my wife and I between the two of us have like dozens of channels that have hundreds of thousands if not millions of subs each. Um, and we've

really just had like a lot of success on that platform. Even with Spongebob Tower Defense, we made a YouTube channel for that and it has 100,000 subs. Um, and it gets great viewership. So, like we really understood that platform and we figured that the audience on that platform is very much the audience on Roblox. Um, especially in gaming. They're younger. Uh, they're more in tune with what's going on in social media and we figured everything we learned about them over the last decade would translate to Roblox. So like when we come to Roblox and make an experience, it's really like how do we create that flywheel where one we can acquire users on platform and you know service what the algorithm wants to see like good day one day seven uh good average revenue per paying user but also how does it leave the platform and become something bigger like become a moment in pop culture. So, when we're building out our games, we want to make sure that there's mechanics that influencers feel compelled to make videos around. Like, we want to make sure it has a great live ops cadence, so there's always new content to cover. And

we're always at the forefront of creators minds. And I think like one thing I've always said is like our games will make billions. Uh, and this is like long term, uh, will make billions because our influencers that cover them make millions. Um, so it's really about feeding them and building and creating like a full economy off platform for those users. So
that's perfect. And I actually want to dive a little bit deeper into that. My next question is in that that this kind of genre, but so my question is going to be kind of what's the edge with influencer marketing, but I'd really you had a great example of the Spongebob YouTube channel and the you said 100,000 subs, but I'd really love to hear about like a recent launch from end to end and which format. short, long-term versus Tik Tok, like what creator collaborations have really moved the needle for you guys?
Yeah, Spongebob Tower Defense is nine months old now. So, we launched that last December. Um, when we dropped that, you know, within about eight days, we

started getting algorithm support on Roblox and started seeing some users come in. And during those eight days, that's when we had our first major influencer cover the game organically.
Wow. Um, and when they made a video on the experience, and this is like part of our strategy. It's like there's so many tower defense games when we released this game, but like no one thought Spongebob would ever be a tower defense game. So, it's like that was like a really fun like video idea, right, in itself, like to where that influencer thought, "Oh, I'm going to make a video on this so easily." We knew all of the influencers that made videos on other tower defense games would like make a video on ours eventually. So he was like the first domino to fall and then that like caused dozens more to fall and we just had within two weeks an ecosystem of influencers that were getting millions of views a week just covering our experience and then that really over the first 45 days of the experience release led to its peak and we maintain that for months on end. And it's a combination of weekly live ops and in those weekly live ops considering how

our our influencers are going to be able to create content. And what we really don't want is one video because we dropped one update. We want to create updates that generate, you know, three or four videos and then maybe you're trying to really think outside the box until the next update uh for a couple more. But really that's that's our goal in every everything we do.
And is it all organic influencers? You've kind of figured out the model or do you
Yeah, we don't pay for anybody. We don't pay for user acquisition in our experiences. So, uh, if we do spend on Roblox ads, it's less than a penny per user we acquire. So, we really understand how to create thumbnails and icons that are appealing to people on the platform and then obviously create like the right content that generates those organic videos and and keeps feeding us on all other platforms.
Can we dive a little bit deeper into that specifically like for the live ops content? like what have you seen really work to to garner interest from influencers?
Yeah, so one thing that helped Spongebob monetize so well but also helped create

so much more content was building like a really healthy trading economy and like an ecosystem around asset value. So for us it's like how do we control the flow here to where when we're dropping assets we can ensure not not all of our users are able to obtain them like create that scarcity create that FOMO and then that creates a lot of great video ideas like I was the first one to get xunit like or trading xunit because it's so valuable and everyone wants to see like oh what is that worth like so for us it really was like creating a sense of scarcity creating that FOMO and then that makes people want to make videos immediately because everyone's going to want to see the thing they can't get. They're going to want to see what it's worth. They're going to want to see how it works, like how powerful is it. Obviously, that like kind of depends on what game it is. But for tower defense, like that was our goal, like create a false sense of scarcity, which will drive up unit values, which will make every update that much more important to be on day one and put that grind in. A lot of our assets are limited in time. So, it's a

two week event or it's a weekend only drop and it's like something you have to be there for.
And was the Tower of Defense genre picked specifically because of the different types of content and influencers? What other genres were you playing around with when you were looking at the Spongebob IP?
Tower Defense was like the best way to prove what we were thinking. So, there was five experiences that were tower defense in the top 25 earning. So, it looked extremely saturated, like, okay, like this is basically 20% of the top 25 games are tower defense. But then we looked at the quality of the experiences and we're like, okay, there's places to improve there. Not that that super matters on the Roblox platform, like quality doesn't necessarily mean a better game and more players. Um, but we thought, okay, there's places to improve. We noticed that they were lacking basically engagement and monetization mechanics, but then we were like, is Spongebob interesting to the audience that we're witnessing from these other five experiences? And like the other five experiences were like Skibbidity Toilet, Five Nights at

Freddy's, uh some anime based IPs, and it's like, okay, so it's it's male, uh it could be a little bit young if you're looking at Skiib, um but it could also be a little bit older if you're looking at the anime. So it felt like it had a broad male audience. Um, and then we knew Spongebob was 26 years old. So it's like we know that there's an older audience there. And um, so for us it's like we feel like this could prop this up. We feel like we can make a better kit. So like a better tower defense game and then slap this IP on it and then we can cut the noise. So we can cut out the necess the necessity to spend to acquire users and just the fact that that IP is on it will drive users and then we have a good game which will retain them. So,
all right. There's been a little bit of beef when it comes to Fortnite creators versus the game developers who are creating custom maps. So, two weeks ago, Alex Lee, who's a reporter at Digid, published an article uh that looked at Fortnite maps and how branded Fortnite

maps and how brands are measuring success. And creators came on board and said that they think these big budgets for custom branded worlds are experiencing lower CCUs, right? like we're only seeing, you know, a couple hundred and they think that they could do a better job if they were integrating these brand experiences into their islands that have already proved successful. On the other side, we have game developer studios like look northworld who partnered with the glitch to do uh the general campaign which has garnered 50 million views. So when you look at success metrics, are you looking at CCUs? Are you looking at overall brand awareness? How how do you judge the success for kind of each angle?
Yeah. And I mean I can speak to this because we were a work for higher studio um for a couple of years and you know I think my opinion is going to come from a place of obviously we're not doing that anymore. So um but I can speak to how I feel about it overall. I mean, if you're

a brand that is like a beverage or a food item or something that doesn't make sense to like have its own standalone experience, integrating is going to be like 20,000 times better. Like you're going to get so much more out of it. Uh we just worked with Lollipop and Spongebob Tower Defense. Like they have hundreds of millions of impressions. Like what you would pay like through Google AdSense like would be astronomical for what we've delivered. Um, but also spinning up an experience has such a cost attached to it that you might as well just market because you're going to save a little bit of money or even if you break even, you're going to get a like a hell of a lot more impressions. Um, so if it's the right brand like Spongebob that already has games, like that's already proven to work in like AAA and double A and mobile, like it is like a really great IP that can be expanded into its own universe and add depth and um kind of validation to an experience. Like it can deepen it for the users. But if you're

like L'Oreal or Maybelline, like you probably don't need an experience and integrating into one that has tens of millions of users is is going to benefit you so much more.
That's really helpful. Thank you. And then just throwing this out there, you guys are just building on Roblox right now, right? Are you interested in exploring other UGC platforms or you Roblox all the way?
Yeah, not really. Um, I think we're Roblox all the way. the platform just has such an advantage when it comes to discovery. Um it's already so well capitalized too in terms that the users understand that you know the I guess the psychology beyond the behind be behind the spend. So it's not like it's not like old school YouTube where people didn't like when a YouTuber did a brand deal. It felt like you were selling out. It felt like you know you were corporate. Like this audience understands microtransactions. They understand premium games. Like, so Fortnite isn't there yet. Like, those users don't understand microtransactions

outside of just the Fortnite skin shop. Like, they don't understand pay to win. Um, so it's like that is such a harder ecosystem for someone like us to enter and like be able to capitalize as well as we are on Roblox. Um, plus the discoverability. Like if you do need to spend, it's usually less than a penny per user, which you can't say that about any other platform anywhere. um like it's 500 times cheaper than mobile. Um so which is crazy. Um and then also just how much time each of these users spend on platform every day. Like it's meaningful. It's super significant. Um we did play with UFN a few years ago um maybe two plus now and the discovery on there is just not even close. like you can't shadow drop a game and have a million CCU tomorrow. Um, and on Roblox you could. So,
yeah, makes sense. Okay, I want to shift gears a little bit to talk about Spongebob specifically. So, I saw you

post on LinkedIn. I feel like this is in the last week, but you tell me if these numbers are out of date. So, I saw that Spongebob Tower of Defense has 78K concurrent users, which is a record for you guys. But I thought the most interesting part of this experience is that it's nine months old, which is rare stamina in a culture speed market. Have you been able to continue the momentum? Is it just live ops? Like what are the ingredients?
I think it's a mix of community engagement and live ops. So like we're very engaged with the community. We have a Discord that's almost 200,000 members. We're constantly taking feedback from them. We're constantly dropping leaks and then getting their opinions on those leaks. And then we kind of take those opinion and those feedbacks and design our updates live. So it's like if a lot of people are like, I want more vehicles or I want more of this, we're not necessarily telling them that we're taking that feedback. We're just showing them we are and we're like building out updates that really feel like they're coming directly from the community. And I always like draw the reference that we

work like South Park team does. Like they're making the episode the week that it airs. We're making the update the week that it airs. like on Friday morning, we're still buttoning it up to drop it Friday afternoon. So, because we're just so live with everything we do, we can be a finger on the pulse of what the community wants. And that's why we drove to nearly 80K CCU last week. And I think 100K CCU is with within the next few weeks for sure.
Wow. It's really impressive. How long did it take you to build up that Discord community? Did it snowball at one time or was it just steady?
Yeah, within a month. um we grew that grew pretty much to that point maybe like minus 25k that have slowly trickled in. So really at the explosion of the game where everyone was super excited and interested they just wanted more more and that's when we spun up the YouTube channel too about 2 months into the game's release. Um and then I was able to make all the videos on that channel be a personality and a voice. Like right now in Roblox, a lot of games do this this thing called admin abuse where the main developer can come into

the experience and do these live events where they're actually talking to the global community, dropping little assets or boosts or bonuses um during like a 30 minute or 1 hour live session. And like that's drawn the community to feel so close to the developer and it's given the developers a personality and an influence. So like we've been doing that offplatform forever. Um, and now we're starting to adapt the onplatform version, but because we have the YouTube and the Discord, we've always had that voice. When I go into the game, everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, it's Zach." Because like I'm that personality for this experience.
That's really incredible. You already own the community. So, I'm sure it's even more special when you jump in in game.
Um, one other thing that I found super interesting is that this is your third Spongebob title this year, correct?
We have. Yes. Yeah. So, Spongebob Tower Defense was the first and Steel Spongebob was the second and we have a third coming this October.
Um, and we're super excited about it.

So, Spongebob Tower Defense was like a big swing. It's a big game. There's so much going on. Steal a Spongebob we made in a week. It was a fast follow hyper casual game that did like 70 million visits
um in like a month. Um, and now this new game we're making is a Spongebob horror game. So horror and Spongebob have never been done together ever. Um, so we get this opportunity to cast this entire universe in a totally different light. And again, like that's part of our overall goal. It's like what is polarizing? Like when you see something like that on platform, you're going to be like, whoa. Like I never thought about Spongebob that way. Same same like effect as like I never thought of Spongebob as like a tower defense strategy game because also Spongebob characters aren't violent. They're not usually doing like combat. So, it's like putting these characters in like these different situations and letting you experience that universe in that different light is what already gives us like such a leg up.
So, my next question was going to be about how you're creating experiences that complement each other and not

compete with each other and how do you spin up a new title versus expanding to an existing one, but it sounds like you just have these ideas of completely different experiences. So, it's you aren't stepping on toes at all. Is that correct?
Yeah. Yeah. We don't cannibalize our own experiences. I think what we look at is like what are the top three to five uh genres on platform right now? What do we believe their audience is like their demographic? Um do we believe it's a saturated genre that's actually spinning down and going to go away or do we believe that it's a mainstay uh like Brook Haven and roleplay and like does does it have an opportunity to stick around for a few years. Um, so if we can identify a genre that's popular, has the right demo, and we believe is it has longevity, like that's worth a big swing for us, and that's why we're doing the horror game because horror on Roblox right now, I feel like, is more popular than it has been in in recent years. If you go back to like Rainbow Friends and Doors, that was already two or three years ago. Um, and those have died down, but now you have like 99 Nights in the Forest and Forsaken and like these new

horror games that are like redefining what horror is on Roblox. So for us, we want to make that entry and Spongebob will help prop us up and hopefully we can take good market share.
Also, perfect time with Halloween coming up, too.
Exactly. Yeah.
Um, I want to zoom out a little bit. So, obviously, we've talked about Spongebob. This is part of your licensing relationship with Paramount. So, I want to I want to hear more about that relationship with Paramount and also your long-term licensing strategy for Roblox.
Okay. Yeah, definitely. So, I met Paramount. Well, we worked on like a couple of contracted projects like a concert for a charity and stuff like like 18 months ago or a little bit more, but we I didn't really have like access to the full Paramount games team. Um, but at RDC last year in September, I I went to the convention. I met with Jennifer Sharp, who just left Activision to go to Paramount like two weeks before I met her. and I pitched her on my idea of, hey, um, if you license me

Spongebob, I will have a tower defense game for you in six weeks that we will release and we'll capitalize on all the holiday hype and be able to run an experience that I feel like could be a top experience on Roblox. Um, at the time Wonderworks Studio was just work for hire. like we kind of got away from making original experiences because we kind of got trapped into making work for hire to stay afloat and I was just like willing to bet the company and take this risk. So if Spongebob Tower Defense wouldn't have worked, I wouldn't be talking to you right now. You wouldn't even know who I am. Um but I felt like we had to make that big bet and Jennifer was just absolutely amazing. Truly believed in what I proposed her and we shook hands at RDC on handing us over the Spongebob license and letting us make that game so quickly. So they've just been an absolutely amazing partner.
So
that's amazing. So it was always about Spongebob for you. Like that was the IP you wanted more than any other IP out there.
There was three or four that we were

talking to and it was really about like all of these we felt like were great and like of nearly equal level. Um, but who would be willing to be as experimental as possible, work as fast as possible, and be willing to throw away some of their processes, like, oh, we have a twoe approval process for every asset. Like, we we needed a partner that understood Roblox is four to six week dev cycles and we need to move fast so we can capitalize. Um, we don't like to be married to an idea and be in production for 3 months because the platform does change. So if we can get it out soon, even if it's MVP and live op into a full release, like that's always better. So Paramount was the right partner. So,
and well, can you talk to me a little bit about more about your long-term licensing strategy? Like what's next for you guys?
Yeah, so what we're doing right now and and what I'm been working on for like the last six or so months is really building out like a library of licenses that that we have access to at any given

time. So like signing multi-ervice agreements with all of the biggest entertainment companies like in the world and being able to have access to their entire library. So with Paramount, we have that kind of deal. Um so like I if I wanted to make a proposal for Top Gun, I could and like then we just do a one sheet and I have Top Gun. Um so it's just like that's the relationship we've built over these last 9 to 12 months um with them. And now I'm I'm working with the two other major entertainment companies to do the same. And my overall goal is to have that huge library to where I have commitments to nobody, but I have access to everything. And then when we identify a genre, it's like, wow, this like fighter genre is so hot. I could go grab this IP right now, no questions asked, and just go and I can pull from like 100, 200, 300 IP. So that that's what we're working on. All in entertainment now, but also starting to talk to the big gaming companies about what it look like. But the hardest thing

for us right now is speed to market. So the companies have to be comfortable moving really really fast.
Yeah. Um this is I feel like the perfect segue to the next question which is what makes an IP roadblocks ready? Are you looking at demographic overlap, memeability, specific loop structures? Is it just what's in the cultural discourse?
Yeah, I think it's a mix. So it's like with Spongebob it was like very large demo multi-generational IP cuz 26 years old like I was nine when it came out. So it's like ultimately it touched millennials, it touched Gen Z, it's touched Gen Alpha, it still has like a theatrical release this December. Like it's still active and kicking. So like that was really exciting because it cast like a very wide net. Um, now if it was a newer IP, like only a year or two old, but was hot, like K-pop Demon Hunters, we'd have to like understand like, okay, how hot is this? What is their pipeline look like by on Netflix's side to like support this with new content? If it's

three years, the next movie, it's like, is this worth a risk um right now because people are going to forget and then they'll remember in three years. or is it like Squid Games where there's like all these episodes and a new season dropping every single year and like you're constantly feeding that loop and there's enough content there to like maintain excitement. Um, and also like on the meme side, you know, like the brain rot stuff, like if that was super hot and you got there early, we'd be willing to experiment with something like that. Like K-pop Demon Hunters to me feels like if you knew the movie was coming and you had the the 2020 vision to know it was going to be a massive success, you would release in tandem with the movie because it's like an IP that has like no history. Um so for us like we do like the longer tale IPs like the decade plus ones like I think about Spongebob and Shrek and South Park um other DreamWorks IPs as well. Like I think there's a lot of and then if you

go to gaming it's like Sonic and anything from Nintendo and and a few things from Sony um Warner's like DC and Marvel at Disney side. Like those are great IPs because they touch so many demos and have been around so long and they fit so many different games. Like another big thing for us is like we did one Spongebob game. We didn't only want to do one. So it's really like can it have multiple entries on the platform? Is it a big enough IP to do so? No, cuz once you make all the art assets, that's like 90% of the lift for most of these games. Like that's timeconuming. It's expensive. Uh it's the most tedious process and the back and forth with the studio. So once you have those and they're already approved, it's like how can we spin them 20 different ways and can it support that? So
let's talk a little bit more about the trans media loop here because you know as you mentioned Spongebob is 26 years old. I also remember when it came out. Ah
are you working either with Paramount? Are you guys doing this on your own to measure whether Roblox play is driving

either show viewership, YouTube minutes, or any type of retail? Like what indicators are you looking at from a trans media perspective?
Yeah. So with Spongebob, the games we're doing with the Spongebob license, we are going to be doing merchandise. So like we're going to have something that we can look at and okay, what's the one for one? How interested are people in Spongebob Tower Defense and buying those toys versus just Spongebob branded things? Um, we do believe it's driving meaningful impact. Like our community, basically Paramount has access to 27 million monthly active users that all choose to engage with Spongebob. So if they want to we we put the trailer for the new movie in the experience. Um, and that had 100 million impressions in two weeks. Um, so it's just like yes, like now those people know about the movie um, or are reminded that it's coming. So, I think it is like a great marketing tool and engine for them. Um, and then also for a company like Paramount that has access to so much IP, it's also a

great way for them to prop up other IP. So, like Spongebob has 22 million monthly active users. Um, we could easily do a Ninja Turtles integration into that and it props up another Paramount IP, but it's also exciting to our audience. So, like we're always looking to experiment like that. So Paramount benefits from not only the monetary gain that we're seeing on platform and how successful these experiences have been, but also we're able to drive more sales to retail. We're able to drive more impressions to their theatricals or even to other IPs that are in their network. So
great. One thing we haven't touched on, but I've been thinking about especially when you talk about how quickly you build and specifically the art that you mentioned for Spongebob, how are you guys utilizing AI for game game and or art development? Yeah, we're really not using it for art uh or or game development right now. I mean, I like to use it to bounce ideas off of it. So, like I'll have like this idea and I'll like actually just go in voice mode and we'll just be like talking back and forth. Like I just kind of use it to kind of brainstorm and just

work out what's in my head. So, it's almost like a therapy game development session. Um, but I've gotten a lot of benefit from that and like it now knows me so well that I feel like I'm just like talking to myself. Um, but like it helps me work through the process. So that's been great. I know like we've played around with it, but like we already move so fast on Roblox like we're not looking for like a one day time save here. I feels like it's more of a distraction when your development cycle is four to six weeks. I can't imagine our development cycle being one to two weeks because of it because
it's such an iterative process that like I like to get in there with my hands once things are working and then make lots of changes and then do that again and make lots more changes. So it's like we're already moving I feel like as fast as we should.
I think it's wild that you're moving that quickly without using AI.
Yeah, it's impressive.
Yeah, I know. Yeah, we're a very wellorganized team.

Sounds like it. Okay. So, to close and then I'm g open it up for you to you if there's anything we didn't discuss that you want to cover. I think this is the era of UGC and I think what you're building is a perfect proof point, but what do you think is the single biggest risk that could stall UGC's rise?
Yeah. Um I don't know. It's hard because I don't feel like I feel like it's inevitable. Like it's going to happen no matter what. like when you look back to YouTube and and what that did to television and how it like kind of changed the way people consume content and how it helped probably the evolution of streaming even um and on the-go content watching and I feel like YouTube was that next step to why Tik Tok and reals and things like that were able to have success because people were so used to consuming content on their device already and now YouTube's become more television and shorts and Tik Tok have have become more of what you you're watching on the go. So, I really feel

like it's not like copyright's going to prevent UGC from taking off. Like, it never stopped YouTube, all of those battles. Um, it's not like, you know, child safety or anything like that is going to prevent like obviously those steps need to be taken to protect people, but YouTube went through the same growing pains as they exploded. And you're going to see every platform that gets to this size experience those growing pains and adapt and try to make change. So, I really feel like nothing can get in the way of this. It's just like the next natural evolution in gaming, in content, in social media, in just how we find fun and communicate with one another on a daily basis. So, yeah, I I really think nothing will stop it.
I like that answer. And then, is there anything else you'd like to share? Anything coming up that the Navic uh gaming a audience should know about? Um, I mean, don't uh look away from Roblox. It's going to be the biggest gaming platform in the world. Um, it's already proving that it can have titles

on it that are the biggest games to ever exist um in terms of CCU. And now you have games on the on the platform generating over a billion dollars in revenue a year for solo standing experiences. So, this is just the beginning. Um, and I really feel like you're going to have the next multi-billion dollar IP birthed on Roblox that can transcend the platform, that can be like that Five Nights at Freddy's with movies and with toys and with like multi-deade IP. Like, this is the place that's all going to be born. So,
amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time, Zach. I really appreciate it. If you enjoyed today's episode, whether on YouTube or your favorite podcast app, make sure to like, subscribe, comment, or give a fivestar review. And if you want to reach out or provide feedback, shoot us a note at [email protected] or find us on Twitter and LinkedIn. Plus, if you want to learn more about what Navic has to offer, make sure to check out our website, www.navic.co.

There you can sign up for the number one games industry newsletter, Navic Digest, or contact us to learn about our wide-ranging consulting and advisory services. Again, that is www.navic.co. [Music] Thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.