Skillz CEO Andrew Paradise on the $75M Accelerator and the Future of Skill-Based Gaming

[Music] Andrew Paradise Welcome to the podcast thank you thank you for having Mishka glad to be here well there's a lot to talk about there's 75 million reasons to talk about you're excited about the Funday ticket well well listen I'm looking at the news scale announc 75 million developer accelerator for skill-based mobile games the accelerator will provide Financial backing operational res resources and expert guidance to bring competitive games to Market what is this what's the core thesis behind the accelerator so the accelerator aims to nurture and grow Innovative game studios that can create unique highquality skill-based games for the platform the focus isn't only on bringing a new talent to the skills ecosystem but it's really about fostering strong relationships with both new and established developers to push the boundaries of what we consider skill gaming today we have this core the that

the next great skill game can be far larger than anything we've ever seen and it may be in a genre that we've never tried so we've never seen uh a lot of efforts into first-person shooters into real-time strategy into mobas I know when you're nodding these are all all genres that you and I both would love to play um and the question is can we build can developers partner and use our platform to build a great example game in those genres and so we're looking for developers who are going to evolve the future of the skill gaming space and can be that first breakout hit in a genre that may not exist yet um you know I I think if you think about the uh Breakaway success of pubg and then fortnite the world had never even seen a battle royale before that and so our goal is really to build this diverse portfolio of games that can engage the existing demographics on the platform uh but also evolve which platform which

platform demographics we we'll get um we're looking for developers with proven track records ideally who are going to bring engaging in highquality experience uh games to life on the platform we also want to evaluate pitches based on potential so the beauty of the program is it's open to everyone um I think the the bar of what we'll look for in terms of you know a prototype uh sample will potentially change depending on that track record in back ground uh we're definitely looking for developers who have live games operations experience um as we all know live opsis become so critical in uh in terms of uh generating Revenue out of a existing title and it's uh you know it's really it's a mentality about how to uh how to engage the user uh post launch how to continuously build the right kinds of content to continue that Journey so uh we encourage pitches that have a clear vision for not just

the existing game that they'll launch or the first the first thing they'll launch but really that journey and path of what they see for the user over their first 12 months their first 24 months so I'm hearing mobas rtss Shooters what kind of studios are you really looking for like are you looking for hardcore Studios or or like when I think about skill games I'm thinking about solitire I'm thinking about Bingo I'm thinking about more casual games but you mentioned pretty you know hardcore categories is that the focus or is that just an example well games with synchronous multiplayer mechanics where com the players are competing in real time uh We've we've seen that those have a significantly higher long-term retention curve than uh other games on the platform so you know uh games like uh like a Domino's gold or a pool payday where they have that synchronous mode um now you know when we talk about RTS MOBA FPS those are certainly like from you

know one consumer of one those are really exciting uh sample set one here but I you know I think when you think about uh things that should uh are most likely to work I I would look at any genre where uh the games are primarily ad supported um those are certainly I think uh right for disruption as the monetization uh from skill-based gaming is substantially higher than ads it is uh some it is percentage points higher than inapp purchasing but it is you know it's it's multiples of what you can generate with an ad supported game so when you're thinking about where can I acquire this audience and and thinking about your goto Market on your game uh LTV over CAC is is really what matters I'd point at um genres that haven't been tried now you know obviously things like FPS they're higher development costs they're higher risk you're really moving towards triaa whereas the legacy on this

platform has been uh simpler mobile games so you know I would think a studio pitching for funds from the developer program they would really want to think about hey I'm G to do three titles I might do one high-risk title where I'm going to do that more AAA type effort but I'm also going to look at a couple of things out of the ad supported world that haven't been tried before we're certainly not looking for the next solitire game on the platform form we have dozens of soliter games for example um we're really looking to to see new types of creative coming to Market whether in you know simpler casual hyper casual genres or you know the ultra Hardcore uh multiplayer synchr schemes so basically you're open up for new and new means high production value games but it can mean also what we consider as sort of a low production value games the hybrid casual titles the studio that might be currently working

with Publishers like woodoo or roic or you name it these to sort of um larger Publishers they can now also consider working maybe with skills as you allow a different type of monetization model that can be even higher monetization per user because you have real money gaming in it yeah and look I I I think we haven't seen uh much in terms of games like uh if you've played any of the uh examples of uh multiplayer snake um out there on mobile i' I'd argue that's pretty casual and yet it fits that synchronous and multiplayer uh concept right it's uh playing multiplayer snake is very much something that I think could work on the platform that's never been tried uh to give you just like one one of many examples of uh of things that have never uh really never seen a skill-based gaming execution um so I think they're you know having a uh a set of logic inferences on

why this new type of creative might work also are important to us in the pitches is this program also intended for existing developers because I understand that there's a lot of different developers working with skills at the moment and have published under your platform uh it's it's available to both so it's and it I would say it's not just uh Capital um for particularly I think for newer companies coming on board uh they can expect that we'll be providing quite a bit beyond on Capital will be providing expert guidance so our team will provide to them deep expertise in game design performance optimization technical development to ensure the game not only meets high standards but really can thrive in its goto Market at the end of the day if you don't have a uh you know a set of channels and creatives that can really Market the game effectively you're not going to get that LTB overc to make the game successful we we provide Beyond even just uh game design work will'll provide data and

analytics we equi our developers with a lot of tools out of the box to uh to track game performance to really provide informed decision- making that can drive growth and player engagement we'll provide uh Technical and Operational Support so we we provide a you know all the infrastructure so we run all the managed hosting for all the developers on the platform um we really want them to focus on the core Loop the game mechanics game development uh content releases you know content packs Post Release and live Ops without really getting bogged down in complex backend work um and of course you know we're providing Capital both to invest into content launches but also into growth marketing of titles so we have over a decade of experience in scaling user acquisition for mobile games we've run budgets over a 100 million per game um you know we very much want to help the next generation of developer uh get that game to Market effectively and at

scale so basically as an accelerator you handle everything else except the fun game that's right that's very much uh the way our platform works and the value prop we provide to the community we we're not the ones to find the fun as they say we you bring the fun to us and we will we will help you do everything else um in terms of operating and growing that business and will be your long-term partner and ensure that you can really focus on what you love most which should be building great games attention app and game developers are you ready to unlock the secrets behind the world's top performing apps and games with sensor Tower you get the ultimate Competitive Edge whether it's breaking into new markets fine-tuning your UA strategies are boosting monetization dive into Data like never before track Global trends across app stores analyze Market leading inap

purchase and inap AD strategies and Benchmark your performance with real time Insight the best part sensor Tower doesn't just deliver data it helps you turn it into action with intuitive tools and expert analysis it's everything you need to make smarter faster decisions thousands of app and game Studios from Indie creators to Global Giants trust sensor Tower to help them win so why not you start your free trial today at sensor to.com that is sensor.com kickass liveops need kickass tools that's where heroic Labs comes in they just released a massive update to their sator liveops platform and having done my research I can say with confidence that it's second to none in a single

product you get everything you need including event capture player segmentation feature Flags remote configuration AB testing experimentation live events calendar messaging retention grafing analytics and so much more if you're serious about running live services in a game get serious about the tools you use connect with heroic labs and make some serious cheese with your live Ops and when we're talking about the Investments like are these um Equity Investments or are these uh sort of publishing models where you're doing a revenue share uh what is the uh what is the structure of the uh of the investment yeah um so it it's it is somewhat idiosyncratic in terms of who the studio is and what they're bringing to the program um so when we think about uh the marketing Investments historically the way we've run that and I I think we'll continue to run that is

uh we'll we will have a certain amount of royalty to the studio based on the size of budget um because as everyone knows in the game Community when you first launch a title you usually run a negative uh balance for some time as your marketing and growing the title and then you have a profit tail uh afterwards after you stabilize on marketing so you know I I I think we're going to continue to do uh marketing Investments as we have uh but obviously at at scale here uh we're going to be doing single game Investments multi-game Investments and Studio Investments so so pretty much a common model where where you approach both through investments into just the content and scaling that content almost like a third party Studio then down to um more Equity Investments if if the studio is is the type of a studio that you see yourself working with through multiple different games over the period of time I I think that's right and it

really comes down to you know the size of the prize and skill of gaming uh you know the dynamic of the market it's it's incredible how fast this industry is growing well before I ask you more about the market size and everything into that like I wanted to know and I think it's important to know for people who are listening and considering working with or or getting the investment from skills is like how do you measure success yeah is it you know new players coming in is it you know revenue or deposits in this this case or is it something else uh pretty straightforward so we really focus on three metrics uh for Success uh so first kpi is retention uh second is uh is sentiment engagement uh and third is uh is really looking at uh you know at actual arpo and revenue Generation Um so kind of expand on that a little bit you know like most businesses and specifically gaming I think all of the

gaming folks uh including us are quite analytical we focus on a few kpis or key performance indicators that really reflect the health and growth of games um so when we think about retention we're looking at D1 looking at D7 we're looking at D30 um we're mainly focused on partnering with developers who can generate uh D1 above a certain level so we're looking for over 45% D1 um when we see games at you know we we as a platform really cannot affect D1 meaningfully is what we've seen historically it's really up to the developer to build a game where people are going to play that game try it and they they feel compelled to come back the next day and if you can build a game where people get that sample and are excited to try it a second time now you you know we can do a lot there to help you extend the game to D7 and D30 um I would argue D7 again though you know we have less influence than D30 we have a

lot of influence as a platform in terms of live Ops and systems uh on skills that can help take a game that has a strong D1 and D7 to generate a really strong D30 um so when I think about retention that's that's what I'd say specifically um you know when you think about uh player sending engagement we're always concerned about quality so you know crashes per thousand App Store stars um running a net promoter score on the game uh in terms of suring the players you know we're we're really uh trying to understand uh you know how much did the players enjoy each session and we're looking at session time per day um so that when I say think about engagement I'm think about like how many minutes a day is someone engaging in this game and then what is there you know what what is the written feedback so to speak um in terms of Revenue model when we look at ouru you know that actually really is a function of CAC right because if we you know if you're going into a genre and you're doing like in our example earlier

uh multiplayer snake um your your CAC is going to be significantly lower than a first-person shooter you know we you know I think that's a pretty fair statement um therefore arpo can be significantly lower and long-term uh LTV can can be lower right it's it's really like when we partner with a development Studio it's really about getting that Arbitrage of LTV overc um um so you know I would just caution people on you know on Revenue model it's really about as much about finding the right uh way to advertise a game and explain the Core Concepts to meet that user's expectation after they come in off of an advertising channel in terms of like you know one of the things I'd say and I pick on even skill-based Bingo um you know it's almost like a Speed game in terms of the skill and I think a lot of users may expect kind of a slower more leisurely experience in Bingo and so you know how

do you communicate that in the advertising and on which channels and I I think strong proposals strong uh pitches for funds will include like some information about you know demographic Channel what kind of like how would you advertise the game and why do we think that will generate a certain you know theoretical GAC uh and that will really help us uh understand what kind of LTV we need to generate off of the game to make it work so you're looking at pretty traditional metrics that any publisher would be looking at uh to basically see if you can scale the game or not absolutely I I look one of the things that I think is so powerful about skills it is very similar to publishing a game with in the free-to-play world in the you know uh paid world uh prior to freeo play it's a new monetization model that well it's an old monetization model to be fair it's been around a long time uh

the idea of using it to monetize a game as a platform is a relatively new thing with skills it's been you know we're coming up on our you know we are 12 years in business now coming in year 13 I think many people aren't even aware that they can use a software development kit to run skill-based gaming and instead of it being an entire business focus it's a it's a go to market monetization strategy just like freeo playay just like uh you know upfront paid titles and so that's the real uh exciting thing here I think as the world becomes more aware of this the market is going to continue to expand in skill-based gaming because frankly when we say skill-based gaming we we've always sort sort of shied away from that at skills we've often referred to Esports and uh and to even mobile as casual Esports and I and the reason I say that is when you say skill-based gaming it's like uh you sort of think of like taking a video game and trying to modify it to make it almost almost like a real money gaming experience um and to

shift it from being you know call it very skill-based to being uh you know kind of at the border of skill versus chance uh in terms of what's legally permissible so if you know about uh the predominance test that's like the number one test uh for skill-based games that's where U skill predominates 75% of the time over chance um we actually measure that mathematically on every game that we run um uh but that you know I think skill-based gaming is really that you know named as an industry because of that line in the law whereas when you think about casual Esports and you and you talk about what that means you're really saying okay video games back in the arcade day like back in the Mainframe world and physical arcade they were really built around like the the best creatives we came up with were around competition they were you know as simple as uh I don't know if you've ever seen king of Kong on Netflix for example but like this like idea we're going to play for best score you know you

literally are spending $800 and quarters to try to get you know your name your initials on the top 10 Leaderboard on packing and that's like that like basic SE like sense of competition is really at the heart of the the beginning of video games um we think that building monetization that is competition Centric is what players many many players want in fact when we were coming up and starting the company ahead of getting public in our IPO we ran a series of primary research studies that showed that uh approximately 40% of people are willing to pay to play and compete for prizes in video games and you know that those numbers continue to flow through it's why like we think this is a a better way to monetize video games so it's about getting uh artists around the world making all these great games getting them paid for their work and getting uh and and introducing a modation mod that's Centric to that type

of work and trying to really focus on this idea that you know people love to compete that is like there's so much of the history of video games and uh and that's you know what when why I I react to those like casual orts versus saying skill-based games it's it's it sort of leads you to a different conclusion of what the future of content will be about in this space H this podcast is brought to you by appsflyer in today's Digital World understanding your apps Journey from Discovery to download is more than just insightful it's essential enter apps lier the leader in Mobile attribution and marketing analytics that allows you to measure the full potential of your marketing efforts making every ad dollar work smarter with apps fer that's your new reality dive deep into Data driven insights that reveal exactly where your users come from and how they'll interact with your app app sler where your app potential meets

performance you you mentioned multiple times you know the potential size of the market if more good games are being made as skill games or real money's gaming titles what's the current size of the market like what how much money are we talking about here so uh I'll share uh some uh some research from uh Fortune um so Fortune business insights uh report uh had the skill gaming Market at 31 billion in 2022 and growing to 85 billion by 2030 so 13% a year I think most excitingly it's not just a 133% growth rate but think about the size of the prize you're talking about 55 billion of New Market Opportunity by 2030 and so there's an incredible amount of opportunity here in North America right now it's the dominant region at 28% market share um you know there's a lot of opportunity to both expand in North America but also Western Europe

and uh the rest of the world Lan for example is is very untouched and I think you know I think when you think about even like uh regions like EMA you can really think about skill-based gaming providing a RMG product that uh is permissible in all religions uh unlike gambling um I I I think skill-based gaming you know the LTV to give you an idea LTV for skill-based games on a user it can range from as low as $20 up to well over $100 uh because competitive players are willing to spend actually a lot more money to improve their skills to enter tournaments to unlock rewards to get real world loyalty and one of the things in the skill-based gaming world or casual Esports as I often call it it's uh it's it's this uh this idea that like ready player one you're actually earning things that you can have in real life and redeem so you're playing in a game but actually potentially winning

physical things that are shipped to your house I don't know if you remember the like there's like a uh a suit that the the kid gets in Ready Player on and he wins it and so you know it's like if you think about skill-based gaming and that like as low as 20 to up over a 100 and you compare that even to free play games it's like you know it's a very strong value problem right you're talking multiples of what you can do even in Freedom play and when we're talking about the sizing of the free of the skill gaming market like what what elements does it take to it is that only mobile or is it other type of a skill games cuz like 31 billion sounds like a lot so we actually uh have recently entered uh web as well um and when you think skill games you should also consider everything from like uh you know uh DraftKings original business to prize picks and skill gaming encompasses all these different types of activities

uh we do now provide web as well so um so players H sorry not players developers can uh can launch uh web- based properties with us uh we actually uh got that live in Q4 and I think a lot of people don't know that we now support not just mobile but also web so the market is a little bit bigger and then when you're talking about real prices that's a sweep Stakes right is that what it's called when talking Stakes uh when when people can receive real life prizes from playing the games that's sweet steak no no no that's that's skill-based gaming uh sweep Stakes sweep Stakes small is you know free to enter uh or you can if you can buy entries into it online in like a it's called a social uh sweeps um Casino execution that would be a model where you can pay some amount of money to buy entries or you could actually you

literally could like hand write in and and send in entries and then you can win real prizes so sweeps model is a model where it's free to enter um or you can enter uh more easily potentially through a different mechanism like online and then win real prizes skill-based gaming model is you're paying an entry fee you're paying a uh a percentage of that entry fee to skills and our developer partners and then you're actually competing to win you know monetary prizes physical things we've had people compete for you know uh a Ford Mustang um we've I don't know if you knew that that we've uh we've actually had uh tournaments to win a Ford Mustang or we've had tournaments to win you know iPads and I don't know you name it physical object but in terms of skill-based gaming skill-based gaming is uh where there is uh to use the kind of technical uh legal terms there's consideration meaning you're paying something in uh there is the outcome is determined by

skill not chance and then there is a payout uh whereas or a gamble or real money gaming would be uh consideration paying in the outcome determined by chance versus skill and then a payoff and so that's the real difference between skill-based gaming and and gambling um whereas a sweeps model it's about you know no money necessary to enter a random outcome and then a payout that makes sense and so basically in a skill game that people who are on top on the leaderboard are receiving prizes not just the top Spenders correct correct the and so you have people competing to win prizes they're also we run a loyalty program where you earn points every time you play regardless of whether or not you win um you can redeem those points just like an airline program or anything else to to get phys merchandise uh trips Airline actually

airline tickets is something we we offer um for example and and how do you see the skill gaming model evolve during the next two three four maybe even five years well uh look I I I I think one of the things that we saw that was really interesting about uh the Bingo category is after that developer launched with us you know there was a flood of of companies trying to build you know a skill game you know everything that skills builds the entire skill gaming stack plus the game entering and competing uh we're a much bigger company than when that happened uh I think we're much better enabled if a developer discovers fortnite on our platform to ensure that developer owns the majority of market share because we can execute you know everything from marketing channels to Business Development Partnerships so much faster now we're just a much bigger entprise so I think what's what you're going to

see is you're going to see uh developers look at this 75 million say hey that's this is a very you know it's a low price way or low or no cost way to try expanding game genres and I think trying to expand beyond the traditional games of Poker and trivia Bingo and card games you're going to see things like Domino's gold you're going to see you know maybe the next I mean I'll give you one we don't have a great golf game okay that's crazy golf is golf is all about playing skins out on the golf course uh you know and people say well why would two billionaires each wager a dollar over uh you know over a game of golf It's like because having Stakes increases the uh the anticipation increases the adrenaline increases the you know the victory frankly when you take that dollar off of that other billionaire it's like it's not going to change other person's life but the symbol of taking

that prize I think it really it augments the competition and that's what we think and that's what we've seen through our research is that when you're delivering that enhanced uh feeling for the player that increase in Adrenaline you're actually making it you know making it more fun you're taking something that is fun and making it a lot more fun and that's that's really what skills is all about it's about augmenting the art rather than competing with the art with interruption advertising or locking people out of the art with iip and so you're going to see new genres I I I I hope people are listening to saying I'm going to build that golf game I'll tell you another one where where are the racing games there are no racing games no racing and racing is another one where I'll tell you we're in I'm in Las Vegas right now every weekend there are illegal street races up in uh outside just outside of town where people race for their cars and you probably say well why did they do that yeah that's the true story yeah it's crazy like like in the movies like Fast and Furious that is

actually Fast and Furious is based off like yeah really there is a place in the desert here with they do um and it's it's totally crazy yeah yeah well it's kind of awesome um but my point being this that like we're going to see these new genres over the next three to five years we're g to see a lot more demographics engaging in skill-based gaming the reality of the higher LTV over other ways of montiz in is going to continue to compound in the industry it's going to continue to change the expectation for playing competitive video games um and I think Global reach you're going to see new new uh new regions like I think latam and EMA are underserved attention app and game developers are you ready to unlock the secrets behind the world's top performing apps and games with sensor Tower you get the ultimate Competitive Edge whether it's break into new markets fine-tuning your UA strategies or

boosting monetization dive into Data like never before track Global Trends across app stores analyze Market leading Ina purchase and Ina ad strategies and Benchmark your performance with real time Insight the best part sensor Tower doesn't just deliver data it helps you turn it into action with intuitive tools and expert analysis it's everything you need to to make smarter faster decisions thousands of app and game Studios from Indie creators to Global Giants trust sensor Tower to help them win so why not you start your free trial today at sensor to.com that is sensor.com and so currently that means that the uh the main audience is USA and are these games skill games available on

both platforms or are they iOS only and they're available on uh both iOS Android and uh and also on web uh on Android they go to market uh because uh you I don't know if the audience is familiar with Google plays terms around skill-based gaming but they've not allowed skill-based gaming for quite a number of years um so the go to market on Android is either direct load or via Samsung um you know I I I think as a result you see less Android users adopting than being able to go through like the actual Apple App Store uh I have to ask you about Bots that seems to be a a hot topic for for skills you know if you if you read the news you've been litigating uh other skill gaming companies for the usage of bots what's can you explain skill stance on this yeah so this is really critical for us and I I want to simplify it skills does not allow Bots uh every time

a player competes to win a prize it's won by a real live player they're competing against real live other players humans not computers um there are games like uh you know when you're playing a game of solitire where the deck is being dealt by a computer uh but the actual competition is who can get the better score against the computer you know who's dealing this deck and they both both players both humans get the same deck dealt to them by the computer so you know when we when we talk about Bots being used in games on platform you know if you're playing a game I'll give you an example if you're playing um I don't know if you've ever heard of a duplicate bridge actually some of the technology that's that I I patented and pioneered came from reading about duplicate bridge tournaments duplicate bridge is where uh I'm playing three other players in Bridge and you're at a different table playing three other players in Bridge and we're

actually competing against each other uh and the players at those tables are running the same deal against us and so duplicate Bridges this idea of you know I'm playing Donkey Kong and you're playing Donkey Kong the computer is going to generate the same you know barrels being thrown at the player the same obstacles for both players and you're comparing score um skills has a lot of games that run on a score compare that's like a very common thing uh we have a smaller set of games that are now being built and are showing to be even higher retention where you actually play Live versus asynchronous sleep so if you think about you know that Donkey Kong example I'm G to play for my highest score then you're going to come up and play for your highest score and whoever got the best high score out of their turn that's the winner of our our competition uh that's that's what when we say asynchronous play and in that example the only kind of like computer

interaction is the computer generating the you know the map and the the barrels that the Donkey Kong is throwing um and if we find evidence of Bot fraud we are all over bringing that to the relevant authorities in countries where we can get legal action uh into making it aware to Consumers that certain companies or games are engaging in B fraud because at the end of the day it's not fair competition and this is a company that we founded on this concept of ensuring that every competition is fair we're Fair competition is what we are all about and I think that's a a very important thing as a platform business building the industry that you know both players and developers can trust that every competition is fair that you're not going to ever play a bot you're not going to play a pre-recorded match or some kind of uh gimmick where really it's a computer that's determining whether or not you want um in our games

every game you're playing it's all about what you do versus what the other human does to win and and that's I think what makes it so exciting right it's like any mistake you make playing that could cost you the game or any any great move you make that might win you the game and again I I I think that's you know going back to the you know the billionaires playing for a dollar I just think that's what makes skill SKS so engaging it's this knowledge and and and Trust From the players that they're going to engage in Fair competition and even when you lose you have opportunities to learn and get better at the game can I ask you about your startup Journey because like you've been heading skills for over 13 years yes and you've you've gone like like any company goes through their ups and downs and but you've gone from a startup that has many downs and and some

ups but you've had like you've essentially had the perfect Journey because you start start a startup and you IPO it that's I mean that's every Investor's dream if you ask them and and you know I don't know if it's Founders dream but it's definitely a a big element out of that so so my question is more like you've had ups you've had Downs uh you've had them early you had them late both ups and downs what have been the sort of a biggest lessons from from from the 13 years of experience heading skills uh publicly list company you know it's a uh it's a bumpy ride to the top and you never know where that top may be I you know our journey I telling our staff because we you know post covid like many businesses have had a lot of problems with with labor with different types of disruptions in our business and we've been getting the business on back on track these last couple years years and you know back into Healthy Growth I

think the the thing I've told our staff the entire time is like well they weren't here for the four other times in the last 13 years where we faced bankruptcy two of those within a week of going bankrupt and so you know it's all perspective right it's um I think the the lesson that I would say is I try not to uh get too down during the lowest of lows or get too excited or optimistic during the highs of Pies it's really about this idea of persistence and adaptability um you know early on convincing investors this was going to be a big sector was incredibly hard the you know Market pundits said this is a $200 million industry that's going to be 300 million by 3030 or 2030 and you know so you're projecting like a tiny amount of growth in 20 in almost 20 years a market uh extion and we said look like we're skill gaming hasn't even scratched

the surface of what it could be this is going to be a TENS of billions dollar industry and here we are today 13 years later it's a$ 30 billion sector and and growing right and growing to potentially 80 billion by 2030 so you know I think that was very challenging and attracting investors um you know imagine if you're someone being asked to put millions of dollars into a sector where it's supposed to experience a 100 million of growth in over 10 years probably not going to write a check um we really stuck with our vision and belief in the long-term potential of com combining you know gaming with real money prizes in a way that was fair competitive sustainable and we scaled and we scaled and we actually you know actually my proudest moment wasn't going public in the last 13 years it was winning the Inc 5000 as the fastest Revenue growth business in the US um you know we went from 108k once we were up in 2013 to 54 million in 2016 in 2016

from 54 million went to 2.6 billion by 2021 uh in terms of gross and you know it was a movement it is a movement um the industry has grown larger and larger I know people often think about should I execute directly and build my own skill-based game I'm I'm sure if you're listening to this you're thinking hey maybe I should start a skill-based gaming company what I would tell you is I really believe that we can offer an a very very compelling berse build for the Rev share that we take and I would invite every developer who's listening to this to really think about having that conversation with us about what they want to build uh realize that we're going to continue with like we've we've survived a long time in this sector we know a lot about it uh hopefully we can uh we can be helpful uh Beyond just capital and I think you know as we look at the path forward on skills I'm actually more excited now than I've been in years because we have you know

we have 300 million on our balance sheet as a public company we have an incredible number of Partners who have built really meaningful businesses with us and you know frankly I I I often think about how we're we're only a few steps down the Journey of this path when I look at things like first-person shooter and mobas and you know snake I mean a racing golf there's so many things that haven't been tried um so you know I I guess my key takeaway over these last uh 13 years is uh be resilient in your beliefs um be adaptable as you get new information about the market space you're in and what is and isn't working uh it doesn't have to be your first great idea to whenn it can be your 50th and one of the you know people always say well when you find skills isn't the same thing today I'm like dude if I had known how hard it would be to build skills I would have

done something else oh that that's not an uncommon um sentiment are you happy with the company going public how would I reframe this question I would say um did did go public change your role as a CEO in a positive way or or a negative way no no I I think there are um you know some meaningful benefits to being public if it's the right type of business and approach in the right way uh there are obviously a number of drawbacks um look going public uh it was a significant shift in my role as like you know CEO I'm air quoting here for people who are listening as a startup founder uh you know I was really doing everything from like I was our first engineering manager I was our uh I was our first product manager I was you know QA uh there were a lot of different roles uh really in product development that I was filling uh as the business

has scaled up I've had to step further and further away from that and really focus on uh on running the business as opposed to being in the business and so you know I think uh my role is has become more about strategic leadership about stakeholder management uh balancing you know the wants of our shareholders the regulatory requirements the long-term vision of the business um there's a i' say uh a meaningful transition in going public in terms of how you can communicate even internally um as well as publicly so you know I'm spend a lot more time for example building relationships with analysts on Wall Street now uh with uh with investors than I would have historically when we had a much smaller investor base and no analyst coverage um other things I'd say about being public I mean you just have to accept some very significant costs to your business business uh you know it's arguably 10 to 15 million a year just in call it like

Insurance accounting legal like there's an incremental 10 to 15 there we're I would say more like 15 as we're a younger public company and still really getting our stride we're not you know we're not Apple haven't been around in public for 30 years um but uh you know so you have those costs you have uh I'd say a change in expectation with all of your Workforce where now all of a sudden performance is measured daily um hourly when the when the markets open and I think that can that can create challenges um you know and so I'd say there's uh hidden costs in people operations in operations and and finance and even internal comms and how we run our our quarterly business reviews how we engage with our employees and talk about what's happening this sun well Andrew I appreciate you coming on the podcast I know you're a very busy person and I think think it's important to highlight these type of uh elements that

are happening in the market when somebody's putting some serious money behind games for them to be released is um is a positive news so thank you for uh for a very positive podcast and for answering some difficult questions other than about skills all right well thank you Mishka thank you for having me and uh you know we're super excited about the developer accelerator program uh hope that your listeners will give us a shot and have a conversation all right this is right before GDC if you're coming to GDC there's a link below in the description where you can apply for the uh the skills accelerator and meet with the skills team at GDC or after GDC so thanks everybody for listening and thank you Andrew for coming on thanks bye you did it you made it to the end of the episode as a fan of the show it would help us out if You' subscribe and

leave us a review on the podcast service of your choice those stars and likes while a small action on your part mean a lot to us and help to grow the show more importantly are you a member of the deconstructor of fun slack group if you have 5 years or more of games industry experience go to deconstructor of fun.com slack and apply to join Jo the games industry best professional Community fi with peers always is willing to lend a hand or subscribe to our newsletter to get all the latest insights from the deconstructor of fun content creators thanks for listening [Music]