PGC Live Special w/ John Wright: Hybrid casual is a stepping stone! Quality over quantity

going back to to that particular part I do believe that hybrid is kind of a stepping stone this is a big statement right but I've said it a few times now I think hybrid is a stepping stone for hyper casual Studios to learn casual and and hybrid is like the the five or the V1 of all of these teams actually mark one yeah mark one cuz everyone basically WS casual Evergreen games like we won games that are in Market four five everybody's not talking about forever games this is no [ __ ] gaming podcast two and a half gamer sharing actionable insights dropping Knowledge from our day-to-day user acquisition game design and AD monetization jobs we are definitely not discussing the latest industry news but having so much fun let's not forget this is a 4 a.m. conference discussion Vibe so let's not take it too seriously okay welcome everybody my name is mat Felix and we are your hosts and you also

work as consultants and uh we work with you on your games on the UA game design and AD monetization side and now we have a special guest from qual John welcome can you you know intro you and say something about yourself and the company you work with yeah um my name is John Ry I'm the vice president of pu Mr Vice President oh you know look I upgraded a little bit in the last couple of months I'm working for for a decent outfit now you know big company qu what were you I was I was at Unity yeah not a big company um but no all joking aside it's a real pleasure to be here guys I obviously I've known all of you for a number of years or like mat Amigo way way back way way back yeah yeah um and yeah look I'm really happy to be here and uh to you know shoot the [ __ ] with the guys and just talk about the gaming industry let's go okay let's go let's go I want to kick it off with the the LinkedIn posts you

you had about the UA landscape and like publishing business like what was it all about so uh for me I think it was a moment where um finally after coming out of a big Corporation you can actually talk yeah yeah so so so so this is the thing right and obviously I have a lot of love and admiration from my previous employer you know youi a great company however as a corporate business which is public there are certain things that as employee can't do one is have like an outspoken opinion and if anyone's ever met me oh yeah I'm I'm 6'2 you me to come on our but no I'm a big outspoken guy um and I don't like being to I can and can't say yeah say that I mean I can nowly appreciate why spu in this so so yeah like obviously for me it was about you know using my sort of decade plus of gaming and just running a bit of uh

punditry on what I'm seeing based on all the information I'm seeing across the space and and look like I'm a big believer in that gaming is a Clos Nick community and it's about sharing information together to ensure that that's why we're here exactly yeah so so yeah that's the that's it guys basically I wanted to to talk about what I'm seeing yeah what are you actually doing at k then like what's Co doing what's it makes different Mr Vice President doesn't VPS don't do anything yeah exactly do anything I have a corner office my own [Music] private white Bo behind me TV on the wall yeah honestly do you do anything yeah I'm I'm doing [ __ ] talking about it I'm the office okay okay let's start different I say like everything is moving to hybrid casual uh what are you guys doing in that space what's going on what's your vision on it he has to say what he's actually doing let's start let's start with that then we can he almost he almost budged the

bullet what do you do we are paying attention that what do you do so yeah uh as everyone said uh my role as vice president of mobile publishing maybe if you say 5 more times like so to keep vice president [ __ ] Bingo like yeah if you say like depends like how many times he say vice president do the Hennessy Jo Hennessy show every Vice Pres yeah we already okay but no in a serious note so my job is to lead the strategy of the publishing division of quali so quali being a very well established longstanding uh British publisher and Studio I think the thing that definitely differentiates us from the competition is the fact that we joined publishing later and we had know uh s of seven eight years of developing AOW successful games in the sort of uh casual puzzle and Hyper casual space

and uh you know in the last couple of years we decided that we wanted to you know invest into a publishing division which is I Le the strategy for and also wa wait wait wait there's also the one arm nobody's talking about like there was like PC PC console yeah I want to talk about that yeah like been politically correct like I don't know if you're going to get that on this world yeah I'm really feel interesting yeah so look I think um you know there's a lot of well documented big companies at the moment investing in trans platform so like a lot of people supercell and then these big companies that are trying to get more people on PC because you the users and the tracking and stuff you get more data and there's more value compared to mobile where you know now it's a much tougher ecosystem so quali are you know in a very fortunate position where we are self-funded um by our founder David darling and you know he is

darling darling n he been he's beened by the queen dude like for gaming yeah yeah that can actually happen in this country you get night Queen okay new you just learn it's a new level of old money oh he's like he's he's the most like nice very sort of like downto earth guy he's like an engineer he's like wearing Cod wait wait what are you doing so I'm getting we talking about PC con talk to developers yeah okay so this go back to track okay hold down hold down boys guys I'm blaming Felix he's pouring Hennessy shots and should see in the background you know and thinking this is fun um but no it's m fun it is really fun actually yeah it's good times but um look as VI president of publishing oh man okay um yeah so in in my role um why I do is I look after the

strategy of the publishing Division and what that means is yes that I partner with all of the third party developers to understand you know what studios are doing only building cool stuff right now but do not have the business Acumen or the funding or the resources to be a to take those games to mass Market okay so what we want is to find cool Studios that have really cool projects and smart Founders and that we you want to find newest of these and let me get that like more more into detail if I understand correctly this is very differ between the competition that you have also internal teams and then you have also trying to spread around which is like the other guys are just trying to spread around they don't know internal teams yeah yeah so that's how it works yeah so we have four core divisions I lead one of them which is the Ping division we have internal hybrid C to give everyone but yes there's four core divisions publishing which is W Le and there's an inter internal hybrid casual

division which has four Studios so we have four teams working on four games at once is that the one that got kned by the queen no I mean finally no [ __ ] coming be interesting EXC yeah so so yeah we have four internal teams um which report into a VP who leads that and then we have a pure casual team that specialize in like solitire card games traditional everen everen everen okay and then we have full f is PC console and um yeah we just launched um one of our most successful games ever called wild Mena it's got a A2 metac Creek and it's done a couple of hundred thousand units premium premium yeah pr29 yeah okay so double a double A yeah we don't we don't like using that phrase because it it's kind of um takes away from the IND curious for people listening usually you like categorize these things like triaa means are usually you know witcher3 $60 game

me something around like lower budget still very high quality but around $30 and then you get like all the way to Indie and like yeah yeah so yeah exactly so that's very interesting yeah look and it's it's a completely different thing it's it's fairly new last two three years but you know we have a you know a portfolio of like four or five games that we market now and we have six or seven coming out over the next 12 months in the pie of conso let me get the straight so those PC are again internal Studios not external uh no so the PC is published actually so publishing yeah so we don't currently we don't have internal PC development team just because obviously it is so you're trying to get like another little company another P world around the corner can you all this yeah it's uh yeah look at the end of the day same as we do in Mobile it's important to try and give you know the underdog this shot course and then just because they're a small company doesn't mean they can't make amazing products of course like especially this like the start of the year I keep hearing about BC success

after BC success after BC success so what's the the new game Pokemon with world Pokemon 700k CCU or 800 1 million already you already had two cannons like Pokemon joke y'all to be honest I have like literally few friends telling me that they're switching from Mobile to like mainly focus on PC coming from expertise because it's just like Greener pastes currently I worked one company who was just mobile only in mobile first and then they like look [ __ ] mobile let's go to PC and like they made like people like two years ago and had the making games for man honestly mediation set up on PC is so much easier there's no W Gardens it's so much easier to make a lot more money on that but free to play PC games yeah but it's honestly you can set up mediation like s like uh waterfuls that are just so much more competition in them and you can do the main thing is right now like with iron source and Max right like you're in their be bidding right so if

you think of the B bidding stack it's like biders but on desktop you have biders and then you can build up your own postbit pre-bid and like a pre-auction you let to build that on desktop you're telling me I can build rewarded video ads in my PC free to play Game Reward videos don't exist on PC so what exist but no no I'm saying on the mediation stack it's easier to get a lot of competition but how can you get the ads in the game then is your own PC no but it's inter just or banners in PC game yeah yeah I've never seen anything like that before first of all my premium experiences on PC do not include B my premium exp like know I'm all I'm all for free to play PC like stuff like I don't P Exile Pay for C Fort like you know there's a different model but never seen that's there there won't be any other I can guarantee that but like there my like you've been you've been Rich for too long yeah but that's my caseen see look at what's happening with Amazon and Netflix right even now they're going to put ads into the paid prescription yeah that's true it's just

like time before they put ads in the games cuz they realize they can make more money so so do we expect to see BC games having ads in them interstitials B and eventually reward 100% you you hear it here first especially this is a big big yeah big assumption from these two the purist over here are maybe disagreeing with that but you know much like it makes all the sense of course it makes all the sense everything's going to be crossplatform right keep you just cannot imagine the scale of PC community gring over this yeah man you're going to be new Bobby C already buker Bobby yeah sign me up you should you should explain preit post bit and all this like fun stuff know more about yeah so essentially like right now on max and iron Source what

you're able to do is like you set up a bidding you have your like you have placements and you have biders so basically it's like placements like are biders that first come up with the highest price and then goes down the waterfall so how it works on desktop is that before you even get to the bidding part that goes down the waterfall you actually set like a private auction or a pre-bid auction where basically you have a bunch of biders or a bunch of like direct deals that then comes up with a higher price before it even goes into the biders so basically your preferred deals go basically compete for a high price but then go into the biders so you're going in biders not at $ zerar but you're going in at a price mhm and then basically those goes in the bidder that's also pushes it up if it's already higher and that goes through the waterfall and you see basically what comes up at the highest price and then after that you send it to a post bid which means that oh well a post bid which basically means that um you take the highest bid that you got out from that process and then you basically set up like more demand inventory the bid on

that inventory okay so in layman's terms you're selling your [ __ ] not on the street you're selling it inside for a higher price and then when you go on the street it's already you do ontop is you put up the same people in pre- bid during the bid and then also post bid so you have the three same networks bidding you squeeze them three times genius you keep looking at me like I'm a Blonde boy but I'm the horns picture I can see it that's that's the preent PED to be the same thing yeah so we squeeze them more yeah it's great okay look everyone needs to make more money right now of course like the market is not going down that's the problem like that's all all the discussion I had like here oh well you know people think like it's for fun it's like you know we make game players like yeah make commercial products it's business it's bu business you need to pay the bills guys exactly yeah the business of games dude this what we're in right the best thing is like oh well you just go to the grocery store like you want to pay as like hey I you know my game is fun yeah pay with your

retention right exactly retention doesn't pay bills ex that's I be talking about always yeah okay that's now about the hybrid casual [ __ ] that uh you know that's when are we going to see you on yeah when we going to see you us when are we going to see Kali on Remo's list of hybrid casual games I'm hoping very soon we've got like a couple of projects that are looking very interesting you mention like five games that you working on do I sense a [Applause] template we'll see this is the thing with quali because we have the internal and the partnership right so there is no template because we're working with external companies as well as sort of using our own ideation to bring different types of gameset even say games are using templates across different Studios not not with meta but with core yeah they're translating the core around yeah yeah yeah look ultimate question John do you have a core team

that is only working on the back end and you know the tools not on games we do have a tools team yeah here it is thank you very much does that mean you have an SDK that basically all your games we're basically we have the quity SDK that has everything there you go there you go full she guys nice Len but what benefit for our listeners does that bring having that so I mean the qual SDK literally has everything everything in in terms of like the Facebook SDK so we can do testing the asire SDK so we trct data speed yeah exactly so this is the thing a lot of these SW developers again purely talking about publishing now a lot of these people don't even have the money to buy about the third party software so they're using Facebook and just tracking from that perspective potentially if not they're using I know G or something right free Google analytics yeah Google yeah exactly and uh yeah so like the quality allows them to as well as us to actually see all of the data to be able to understand if and

Z you know like is this going to be a commercially successful business like is this a game that's going to drive profit and whilst obviously we're very passionate about the product we all know and we've been gaming long enough that some of the best looking games we' ever seen never went to Market and so those games never were successful there has to be balance between making the most fun games and making ones that can actually pay work on some those yeah what are the like KPS for commercial success billion dollars yeah come for you I mean for us what we you looking for yeah c one yeah I mean look CPI and stuff like marketability is not as popular as it want to no more hyper casual EXA exactly right let's let's let's put it out there like even if you get a 4we 50 IPM the game could be a failure which yeah two years ago you got 450 IPM he making money the you you making you're going to Zer to set that's it you're making you're making

sever figures off the back of that but now obviously the complexities of games and meta and everything the yak ofing that is timly super important because you know that brings the increase in the LTV that allows you one to actually do UA in this harsh environment especially Blended UA yeah Blended but yeah like this this whole setup and hybrid for me going back to to that particular part I do believe that hybrid is kind of a stepping sign this is a big statement right but I've said it a few times now I think hybrid is a stepping stone for hyper casual Studios to learn casual and and hybrid is like the the point five or the V1 of all of these teams actually mark one Mar yeah mark one CU everyone basically ons casual Evergreen games like we won games that are in Market four five everybody's not talking about forever games forever forever games but the thing is you need to have the speed That's The Power of hybrid casual you need to preserve some of that very fast hyper casual you're right the balance okay okay but how

what's like how the balance look like what how the balance you have a template okay but if you don't have the template yet you know like you slower 50 50 5050 but people like Tes testing hyp hyper casual games like two days [Music] whatever why are you attending games from Barcelona 2024 sh insights and knowledge have all gaming experts in one place networking great lectures meet new people to learn more about the industry games forum is one of the best places to get mobile marketing Insight see all the conferences and panels staying up to date with the market I'm going to meet their amazing people the experts in their fields insight and networking register now and join 500 UA products and Apple Managers at Gams from Barcelona February 7th and 8th try one yeah for me like just like out of my head when I was building stuff last time I would say quite some time ago for yeah a year ago

not so so I would say hyper buing sh just to give it like estimate hyper casual game you can completely okay with four to five weeks you have a like hyper casual game you can test work kill hyper casual hyper casual hybrid I would say minimum three months if fast month six months if you want to flush it out but you cannot just test it like oh let's test it with like one item in the inventory you need to build the whole thing yeah and it's like okay well it's quite hard like was like serial killing kill fast fou fast it's not what it was anymore you need to put like I would say like like y said three months is like a minimum project right how how do you approach like that kind of development like what's the process because do you fund it yeah that's the question you fund it as well yeah like like how your PR so so obviously there's first like okay ideation testing funding okay because I mean if you fail first after the three months kind like okay well we just lost three months of devopment that's that's

the game bro okay the game now okay new game is much slower yeah yeah yeah it's not for intricate right the products is more robust you can't have the same level of engineer that was producing core Loop in hypercasual like the quality and the standard has to go up okay but are there like any like milestones in the between like yeah so like from from a Milestones perspective like uh we we have like a few like cor W MVP you know the minimal wild product we're looking at you know something between you know 30 to 60 Minutes of call gameplay right no met at this particular time and this is allowing us to establish CPI and marketability but whereas in hyper casual was all about there to begin with now we have to go into retention day one and potentially like not 60 minutes but if we can gauge some like day three even like even day so so first skill gate is what CPI day one combination yeah day one retention and CPI is how quick you test that though like how quickly be freest test that so thing is the MVP could take anything between like two and

6 weeks round like you know because it's the thing all hybrid casual developers are turning in the graves hearing that two to six weeks yeah no man the whole like again like game Chang yeah game Chang the thing yeah you go but but this is the the crazy thing guys like hypercasual was great for many aspects right but it was a purely a marketability s of like um Arbitrage based system marketing exercise pretty much and and look the the biggest games on hyper casual make what 100 million 150 and look if you look at the biggest grossing games in the world billions of dollars honor of Kings right billion like come on man there's levels and there's levels you know and this is the thing we are transitioning from those like small games that come out very often making as much smaller amounts of money two these forever Evergreen games that potentially are nine figures 10 figures like it's this

is the this think about it like all of us have been gaming long enough to remember before hyper and this is the way it worked before we're going back in time slightly and focusing on quality rather than quantity yeah and this is has to be Studios focus and obviously again as jackob said it's important to try and like you know maybe tempti stuff get some some quick wins you know put the doing fast as possible but speed is important like agility is important let's go back to the like the process so you this CPI they want okay Facebook Tik Tok Google yeah Facebook and then and then you know potentially we do secondary tests which is like Unity EST there's also a massive difference in in Facebook and unity now say yeah you can't base the evaluation of the the whole concept one one channel that that's that's one thing but one test that's the other question like if if let's say the team fails after three months of doing these things how many chances do give them to let's say have another try this is the the hard part so

so look this is silence I want to hear the vice president because you know we already sunken three months into this Vice President we know each other um yeah my friend told the John John um you'll be an EVP suit if you keep that up yeah I'm trying I'm trying um close the question so BL T after 3 months we s for 3 months test failed what do we look look the thing is I'm not going to say like deal it immediately yeah I'm not going to say you cannot do it like hyper casual because they you will kill it immediately this is the toughest thing with hybrid I think is that you get some amazing projects that actually have deep meta and you you know you start Tesla and you think God this is going to be amazing right this is like actual like I didn't particularly like hyper casual because I'm a hardcore gamer I think a lot of us who work in the space wanted to work on projects that had you know memory and people could relate to and you wanted to build something that your

friends in a b be like yo look at this this is amazing but Hy wasn't that yeah hyper is getting closer to that right getting there getting getting there let's say yeah you can be want to be proud about this but at the end of the day again the teams who are putting these hyper hybrid casual games together are more Technical and then better quality and it's even the teams that were doing that go better or not what do we do do we kill it or no okay okay it's important it's important no but yeah context is everything okay sure but for us we try and establish long-term relationships with our developers so our number one developer we have launched five games with right and we're very proud of that because we believe in long-standing relationships that's part of the message of our team so if we invested let's say 40 50k a month you know in terms of what we would invest burn burn rate and then and after three months you've invested 150k and this team have done everything they can and listen to every bit of VI so we have product people right who are analyzing

we have insights people who are literally going St we've updated gdds and saying okay we've looked at the game we've looked to the market these are the things we do if that collaborative effort right that partnership you know we do everything we can and you still that game is not successful it's not the team it's the game right and you have to revisit that and sometimes you can pivot and obviously change the initial game or it's back to the drawing board man but Los successful in dead stage yes so at that stage we would say it would be alpha alpha being up to 4 hours of content okay okay so you no so you know what dude it's very interesting now because I'm seeing some games that have 30% till day one yeah but the long toil LTV is really stronger right because we're going into the Casual so so like like having like if I have 30% they one but 10% they yeah we're talking now okay so this the thing it's not about like the hyper casual like hockey stick curve and D

this this is like a longer mellower curve long term right it's not sexy though it's yeah look it's not sexy yeah well it's sexy when you make money long term exactly three months in we're making what still got more money coming from these us W yeah yeah that's quite sexy let put on my triy question then would you reskin the game into a different team and iterate it for instance oh so like for instance sty has the same game in three different variations on their account currently oh so it's something that we I make sorry can't help yeah so so this is a tricky one because there is this is moral this is a moral dilemma right so we value the Partnerships with the individual Studios right I don't know start set up and how they you can do with the same Studio yeah the same the same Studio we do iterate different things I wouldn't give a project that someone put three months into another stud would not they getting is Alien Invasion because Alien Invasion pretty much the same game with like a fishing theme m looks perfectly worked perfectly didn't do [ __ ] mm but then they changed the

game a little bit it's pretty much the same game just alien team bam yeah same Studio yeah I mean you're going back to like the the vampire Survivor sort of uh scenario right which you know you do it much faster on the second TR because already know yeah and look you iterate you move on but this is why why again even like so again I've I've worked with Studios recently where we've invested 100K 150k and they failed right and so you're still work still because CU it's all about also the fear execution and they working together and them knowing your process and you know at the end of the day they already invested ex other and you put like you put you've got skin in the game that sounds fair you know like at the end of the day you want to have Studios that are producing results results doesn't mean hitting the games results doesn't mean hitting the lines and like making stuff work and doing [ __ ] because we all know 90% of stuff we all do goes to trash that's how the industry works if you're supercell or not doesn't matter kind yeah he's very kind but but no that that's the whole

thing guys like it's it's tough out there games are getting more harder to to hit the metrics but you know once once we get to Alpha we have enough contest so let's say there's a it's 30 minute sessions per day 4 hours eight days so so then you've got like day seven right so we have enough information there to look at day seven and then from day seven you're kind of in it or not right like it's if the day Seven's good then it's about continuing to add content and improve that content will from 4 hours to 8 hours to 12 hours and then what's what uh day good day seven mean 15 10 20 yeah so yeah 14 to 16% is probably like a good one again really if you if you yeah and and then but you want again the trend line to be mellow right so when he gets to like day yeah day 30 you know you still want like 8 to 10% right and then this and this is a casual game right this is nothing matters do you look at ad metrics at that point or only retention no no we

start to yeah yeah so point of after the point of alpha between Alpha and and soft launch like the monetization goes in and then like you know we we're looking at the uh shop and you know we have exactly so we have like from our Toms team we have the ability to put all this stuff in quickly T us us yeah this is oh yeah yeah 21 you don't any more test somewhere else the thing is and maybe for a product perspective maybe if you need some Dow test you go and stuff but it's all tier one now dude yeah like what I'm doing Al like Market testing us then like okay well this game has legs and we are going to soft lunch drop us and then go to like tier two and then afterwards tier one because I mean that's St you don't need us anymore but if you want to test your Mar yeah us you need an actual view of what your LTV is right there's I don't care who you are you could be the biggest like gaming company in the world but you're modeling from tier three to tier one there never going to be act I don't believe in that [ __ ] no really

I've never seen it's outdated nowaday fun while I lasted more Canada for you that does mean like from a publishing perspective You' got to understand that we've gone from spending a couple hundred bucks to to thousands of1 yeah he 21 yeah it's expensive that's the thing like some of the you know not only are we spending maybe six figures on the production and death funding we're also spending 10 20K on new AA so these are all additional some costs that we have to factor into to to the you know the commercial understanding with the studios and how we actually go to market like you can't just like it's not just a couple hundred bucks you can't throw it away like it's it's generally like serious money how do you actually go to market then well this so this is the other thing like in again in hypercasual you would do like a hardw TR when I say hardw I'm talking like you know put loads of money behind it even potentially being like Ro Roi negative you know to get into the top right then once there you know you get the traction Halo Affair K Factor whatever you call it and that was part of the calculation that's how you me and did the UA right

like you know eventually you would then reduce the CPI and you would make profit but it was all about like getting that K factor and obviously after the store changes and everything else that yeah so actually what we' seen now it's very interesting and I think if you look at some of the big games in market now this is you've seen the same Trend but the hard launch is it's not a hockey stick a slow and it's like exactly like two years still going up that's what everyone wants to the pocket CHS example is perfect and you know what's great example of TI match 3D keeping my pocket match a U-turn yeah yeah Pock champ sorry champs yeah triple like I was talking to the guys medically was like guys it's like what the [ __ ] I know we had it on different account nobody Min C you know like was amazing and suddenly just it it kept growing kept growing like you know I don't think so it's even possible to do some of those like you know whatever Garden Cape

La some of these casual midore games with these ones because with hybrid casual you know you cannot really you don't have time to below those features so build them as you go and like iterate and hope that you can see a template but what do you mean you don't have time I mean you have check control or dream there like these things were added into the meta game yeah because they were early on they were just experimenting yeah yeah but you know a lot of things are experimenting because they creating something completely new like arcade Idol it was not here really before yeah there will be new genres popping up you don't even know about racing racing exactly so we'll get there and then who will tell you this is the right metag game for that game you need to figure it out yourself and those mistakes will be very hard to swallow very funny we're working on M racing it's coming line I've got this I'm coming yeah so many companies are already working on nidal racing yeah it's new thing give me give me a couple of moments and uh I I'll send it over to you guys so you can stop playing okay yeah looking forward

but they're like okay so those five games you have in the pipeline like in you know sort of only idle racing anything else no so yeah like we have we probably actually closer to 10 games in the publishing team Alone um so we have yeah no we are dude and and the thing is like quali at the moment is doing well right and there there's a lot of companies out there we not but we're doubling down we're investing we're actually one of the only people I think that's actually operating multiple strategies to try and find like the new blue option A lot of people don't have again the Financial Security to do that but you know [ __ ] them I'm position you have a you have a exactly first first yeah that's it so so again like but the the multitude of games that we're currently operating so like from a publishing perspective we are looking at half of the games that we're working on our hybrid casual yeah right with a strategy to try and get them closer to Casual well that's the like the hybrid casual word mean to you is it just is

that 50/50 split you're saying or is that what saying necessarily so so obviously it for me it goes down to monetization which I think most people you know sort of the revenue profile more yeah exactly so this there m one is adding meta right like meta makes it hybrids like uh and two it's having anywhere between 30 to 50% in that purchase rather than in that Beds which we know in this current equirement privac see car with that stuff it this makes you more like Recession Proof yeah but even the players are more invested because they spend money on it so they stay around for longer right effect yeah in your definition what would the retention profile look like day day one day like seven day 30 like what what does that look like for hyri casual hybrid casual hbri Cas so again it really because of because hybrid casual is not a core definitional genre like things are either closer to hyper or closer to Casual right and depending on that the profile in the person us doeses change but day one I said like anywhere between like 30 and 40% and then day

three starts tearing off and and really from you know day one to you know day 14 you're looking to you know be 30% of what what the initial number was and then it starts going a bit lower that's going up to day 28 but it's there isn't really like a full Benchmark or not the shape shape of the curve is yeah it's the shape of the curve more than numbers right then if you have let's say they 61% you aim from like day six to profit ability so I've got a better one I'm going to return the question would you prefer like a day one 60% but like a day Zero 2% or would you prefer you know day one 40% and then day 30 10% what what would you prefer so I I worked on the game which had day one 128 and day 68% yeah and you're on that right yeah that's what that's what we all longevity exactly yeah yeah and we made yeah we made money on the long long term that's it You' got to be patient but all in gaming now need but the thing is like every V is like oh well show me day one

like what nobody cares about it's just part of the Milestones nobody cares they they have a template that's whatc tempate little things like people need to hear this because everybody's obsessed with oh well day one I have 30% like the wrong question day one is just the reflection of your ratio day one day three they s like yeah like the shape of the Curve not to my man here but if you want to hear a very good talk on mization listen to his deconstructor fund because he basically said the same thing like someone comes to me and says about asking about ecpm they don't really know what they no no no no I used to work in a network if someone comes complaining to me about ecpm generally you from a network perspective assume that person is not very knowledgeable because it's Phil and ecpm that gives you the ad Revenue the the the importance of the question you asking the person the question shows if you know what you're talking about or not if someone comes to me and say day one is the most important Fe in the world I'm like well okay you kind of don't know

what you're talking about like uh okay another all I've been he's not so polite now he's from nice guy to bad guy he always does that but no it look at the end of the day we talking about profile longevity Evergreen all this stuff like we we want to launch as many good games in Market as possible you know Mission State quality is make most fun games to the world's players and that's why we try and live by that statement but you know a lot of games die a lot of a lot of hybrid games which we have these five games that we talk about from a hybrid perspective you know hopefully two or three of them you know will go to market and be successful and then the other s five games we have are other jras we we've got an AR location game that's coming out which is you know is with an IP I can't talk about it yet I please see Digimon please see Digimon and and then then we we're also looking at like you know casual games you know like you know how did you come up with all these like different ideas do you want to just build like ayra

expertise or something I'm templ so there is um definitely a play which is like from a genre perspective it's important to have more information market and understand where the trends are and spending some money on other jras to finally get that blue ocean is a viable strategy right if you can then Corner a market or Corner a genra as a company that will ensure you to make lots of money so there is part of that but ultimately you know we have the ability to do testing in different genres different people different countries and you know even if you spend money and lose you're still learn right and the it's the evolution of that process in your let me just stop you there because this is like the most important thing that I think 80 80% of people don't get you spend money and you lose but you learn yeah but what do you what what you Lear say say that again it's so you spend the money you lose and you learn thank you and you need to learn of companies don't and what is that learning from that like that's

important yeah I mean it could be a number of things right it could be that this sucks and don't do it again or it could be like features in the game that you would never have that type of genre like use the half of the meta because that part Works cross the cross applications and put it into different core gaml exactly so think about like you know the more tests you have a market the more you learn the more quick you're able to establish and you know agile agile the agile to move you know to Pivot you know uh Hennessy team you know uh and yeah like yeah this is this is what you've got to do and then don't get wrong there are other Publishers in Market that are you know going laser focus on a particular form of hybrid casual right however that's not our approach so you know and I feel sorry for the guys working in those teams where they know that laser folks I have a lot of fun every day bro they getting a different things so honestly like you link best thing that ever happen is the U consultancy I've seen a lot of [ __ ]

it's amazing it's amazing it's like okay well I've seen this this and that like I know how it's going to work it's perfect yeah it's perfect that's it you use those examples and those real world experiences in another way right and you can you can have a hypothesis based off that stuff right and then you just apply that and then look either you're proven true or false but at least you have a a educated gu yeah we've seen before another underhanded question have you tried turning your hyper casual games into hybrids so one of the strategies that we're operating right now we're operating a you say like you do everything I mean I'm trying a lot bro I don't sleep you know I know I know you need to prove the VP doesn't yeah I we we also grew the publishing team by 100% in the last three nightes since I joined we applied developer support so we now have engineers in the team we have you know like like product production also game art game design and you know

traditionally like uh as a strategy perspective now we're you know we were traditionally doing um like standard third party publishing but there's also a case of now we are looking at games our back catalog which we can hybridize we're looking at other people's back catalogs that Acquire and we also doing we're also doing ctive right some some like solo and stuff like that spoke velers here at BGC that actually that like hyper teams having very successful in hybridizing it right on the SP as well and how you do that you add metag game yeah I add meta game you change the game keep the fun in core gameplay retention needs to stay same get better in longtail and add spend up okay yeah yeah but this is all viable strategies right like I said the industry is evolving not in games is never been so hard so you have to to have many strategies to find out which is going to be the oh you're because you need to scr them all can you uh basically before we wrap up can you say

three tips that you give to developers right [ __ ] again no no no three UA tips not three UA tips it's actually three I'm making fun of I know you say find Jesus like yeah no no no wasn't what you want from me man like you know just spring that on a guy like uh at the end of the C no prep maybe let's do differently no I can I can I can give some stuff yeah you complaining about no no just cuz you come me off guard man how can you catch a vice president of guard this is how this is it but no look I say three things is you know Focus you know focus on the game and I know on the product and you know don't don't actually rush things right now you know things need time and as long as you have like either the ability your financial sport to continue to work on something don't don't fail too quickly you know

it's important to give things the time they need to be successful it's not hyper casual where you build a privot type in three days two or three months you know yeah exactly and then maybe it's less than that again getting the MVP out but you know you need to be patient and hypercasual was everything but being patient yeah doesn't work I they by I think also you need to remain agile um with the metrics and understand that things have changed right and you know just because a game doesn't have again a 45% day one 50% day one anymore that does not mean that this game is a failure great great point so you know you have to really understand what you're trying to develop and where the trends are and where the industry is going and that long tail curve that we're spoken about a few times today you know that is more important than the other stuff that we've we've we've done and yeah a cure focus and I think you know only don't be afraid to try and new things because quickly hybrid will become saturated it's already is and I

you know I advise all teams to you know continue to develop fun stuff uh which it could be different and unique like copy cutting was big in hypercasual I don't think it needs to be in hybrids and like hybrid is a stepping stone right and in casual games there's plenty of them in Market which again have been live for years and years and still remain unique maybe there's some capacity ones there but you know hyper casual prototyping burned out lots of Studios like coming up with a new idea every week I few weeks it was impossible right now you don't have to do that you know you kind I mean you kind of have to but not like on that pace no that pace yeah correct you need to flush that one idea and execute it that's the thing yeah execution is key but like how do you find that idea like oh W okay this is it and we should try and learn or whatever like we need to be creative that's go game design that's not the thing you do man oh wow wow

thank you yeah we should probably wrap up but we just want to say uh thank you so much for having this little discussion with us great conversation actually no I mean we've been wanted to do this for a while and you know like I'm really happy that you invited me here guys and we've got obviously if you're not at our party' done something wrong because best party of PGC hasn't started yet but I promise it's going to be yeah yeah really happy to been here and have this you know cool conversation with cool people appreciate all right that's it thank you for listening subscribe it's very important to us means a lot and then see you next time yeah c [Music] [Music] c [Applause] [Music]

that he [Music] very so wing it or what's the toic yeah wing it or what the wing wing we we've done this before we can win this [ __ ] yes okay let's do gossip Corner what best gossip we heard from PTC no no no go the sandbox I think we can we can be a littleit closer together like yeah no let's go ah okay hi you know you're kicking it off no you okay you you do I I do it I do it all the time sign MoveOn bro I know no I know let's go no come on man oh my God okay welcome everybody this is

session number what no it's we call it special this is Special Special live special PG yeah yeah oh my God we're doing it again we are in a dungeon we're in a basement our party is happening in one an hour one hour one hour but the [ __ ] 1 hour and we have a special guest welcome man welcome okay hello everyone dude try that again do your proper intro where no no no no no no no okay I can do yeah come on that's what you prop set up and we join this special very special gu from no no no I knew I gave you too much Al what two brownies kill man oh my God I put this it's going to be it's going to be there yeah yeah it's going to be there