Panel: How do we Prepare for the End of IDFA?

let's get started i mean great way to start it a little bit of hopefully positivity because it's a very complicated topic how do we prepare for the end of idfa and it's moderated by joseph kim it'll be a frank discussion from an expert panel he'll introduce them i'll leave that over to him but in the meantime i just want to set the stage a little bit for what you'll be listening to so uh it's interesting because we will have to think and rethink what we do and if anyone's going to be able to add some spice to this panel and some experience as well i think my vote goes to felipe de rose he has had experience reinventing himself he's told me he has a career um

for uh sorry he's had a career reinventing himself he's been in aerospace so flying satellites training astronauts the whole deal and we'll also get a press perspective from alan gullan i hope i'm saying that right alan alain alain golan yeah yeah i'm good okay we'll introduce you in a moment but again it was just exciting that you have had a lot of changes and you've also learned the secret for making the perfect espresso so if that's another pearl of wisdom we will gain from this track so i will hand it over to our moderator to take it from there cool well uh thank you everyone for joining um we've got an exciting session today um yeah why don't felipe why don't you just give a quick intro on who you are and what you do and uh give us context on this conversation we're just about to have uh hi everyone um thanks for uh joining uh and the invite to

speak on this panel um so i'm chief growth officer traplight a little indie that has been around for a decade but is starting to emerge with their new title battle legion came out in july and we are gradually growing up to become a bigger and better um mid-core game and i'm responsible for a whole bunch of things including ua admon analytics community support and creative cool thank you for that intro uh andre how about you what's what's your background door hi uh so yeah i'm andre my background has been years and years you know i started as an indie game developer and grew through the phases into a long time of liveops and game optimization so i coming from a

very deep data science perspective into idfa um and how to use that kind of data to make better game experiences now i'm working at tilting point uh which is a game publisher based in new york um that you know has a progressive strategy of you know taking games and growing them and becoming larger partners with these developers um and now we have at by this point seven plus years later then we have our own co-developed games so we we are pretty large you know data-driven data science now backed company trying to make better of ua thank you for that and lastly along quick intro thank you paul hi everyone my name is alon i work at fiverr for many years and previously interactive that was acquired by fiber uh i'm vp product uh we work a lot uh closely with publishers as you know fiber offers a suite of

tools for publishers um so our experience with what we're going to talk about is how do we help publishers get ready for ios 14 uh but the publishers are also advertisers we also boast um you know a programmatic exchange so we work with publishers both sides on the monetization side and the user acquisition side great all right thank you for that everyone um so quick intro from myself so my name is paul bowen i am a chief revenue officer at algolith by vangual so algolift is a predictive analytics company and marketing automation um so we predict dell tv for mobile apps and automate user acquisition using that ltv uh we were recently acquired by bungle uh in part because of uh the solution or the approach we've taken to the deprecation of iodfa so context for everyone so context for this session so apple announced um some pretty alarming

privacy changes back in june of this year effectively ending idfa the changes that they proposed were supposed to go live in mid-september um fortunately i think for everyone apple delayed those um however facebook had already said that they would they would stop supporting idfa prior to prior to that deadline um we're still to hear from a bunch of the industry leaders there around how they're going to to solve for this problem but with that in mind and the early early q1 being the deadline that apple said that they were now going to push out those changes it's a good time to talk about how we prepare for prepare for those uh those coming um so that's sort of the context so um just to get started so what what do each of us think that will be the biggest impact of this effective idfa deprecation um who do you think is going to be uh impacted the most uh and i'll start with along sure yeah

well first of all i think apple needed some extra time because there's a there's some big impact on them as well um but look the impact is on on the advertisers it's not so much on the brand advertisers them i think they're kind of used to targeting and buying contextually you know reaching an audience so it's the performance advertisers the ones that are looking for uh um you know done the funnel events um the biggest impact uh goodbye retargeting goodbye uh user level and welcome cohort and other new models like ltv and incrementality that i think is the the biggest change that's coming great thank you andre what what do you think about that is that is that how you see it or do you see it differently yeah i mean i i think i i was going a little bit more specific i think you know whale targeting is the part that really is getting basically wiped out uh at least on ios and

you know if anyone depended on that balance between ad monetization to at well targeting if the game was that kind of game then all of a sudden you have to start reconsidering how to make that game different um so i think any game that had a very shallow level of depth that was counting on an ad per per game core loop has to start thinking about how to add more in-app purchases or something because you won't be able to get such quality users into the games anymore isn't isn't every game on on mobile a whale driven game though every iep game you know i like to think that games can be fun uh not just for being well driven uh because there's so many users right uh it's a missed opportunity if you're only counting on one percent to drive the revenue um but yeah no doubt uh if if all your hopes were in the 100 uh users installs a day

to drive the whole revenue that you're you're in trouble cool thank you for that felipe what do you think well uh first of all i think um it is alarming for us in the industry um but um it's meant to be a positive change for uh users who you know were protecting their best interests in privacy but i think ultimately they're going to end up just following on from what andre is saying they should be ending up with a better content experience as well which might be a bit shaky at the beginning when it comes to like weird ad targeting because you can't recognize the user properly but then eventually it should get better but some games will probably become better and advertising will probably become better and i say that in quotes because um with a lot of uh the dependency on

would-be accurate algorithms uh not exactly 100 accurate but typically accurate algorithms um the most important thing is to just find the right kind of quick quick shot efficient message to attract the attention of a payer or a you know whale a dolphin or whatnot so we're probably going to see a sort of an improvement in the way we present our narrative on advertising because we need to find if we can't target the whales then how do we speak to them right so i think if anything it's just an opportunity for for all of us in the ecosystem to rethink a few things and actually understand how deterministically were we in the first place when it came to attribution um so it's it's kind of a hard working moment because we're all being thrown a wrench in some

respects but it's also just kind of a very interesting moment an opportunity to re review a few approaches to how we do things do you feel do you think advertising or the creative is going to be more like tv advertising more broadcast type generalize creative it's a it's that's an interesting question uh paul which is why we voted for you as the amazing uh moderator um [Music] i mean it could be right i mean of course anything we say at this point your guess is as good as mine so it's funny to say there's a panel of experts on idf8 none of us are an expert on this at this time um i mean if that's the approach then it means that the ecosystem has had a depression in pricing as well because if we're able to afford that kind of broadcasting then you know cpis have probably gone down uh

i think it's i think it's more sort of related to really thinking about the narrative the what you're presenting in the ad rather than the usual for the lack of a better term clickbait um but something that really speaks to a certain demographic or a certain audience it's tough if you're at the beginning right because you don't really have a marketing persona to speak to because you don't know who your ideal users are but it will be more kind of targeted through the pictures targeted through the videos targeted through the copy in that sense rather than because broadcast tv tends to be a little bit catch-all right yep cool thank you for that so let's do a quick lighting round on some of the impacts of idfa so give me a very short 15 to 20 second answer for each question so andre let's start with you how much

does ad revenue fall on ios 80 you re 80 at least in the beginning wow that's uh that's extreme felipe uh 20 to 30. hello a few months ago we saw an a1i 180 drop in ecpms and today we see anything between 30 to 50 depends on the placement type like if it's rewarded in this initial banner so i'm a little bit optimistic not just because it's not 80 but because the trend is positive right so anywhere between 80 and 20 percent drop um so what happens to mmps none of you mention these in the who's going to be the biggest impacted i don't know whether that was deliberate or tell me tell me what you think about mmps well i think it's just a bumpy six to twelve months um i think because like all of us

experts in this in this table they're equally experts in the new world and so i think there's a lot of value in what they do if they figure out what to do uh just like we all are experts in the future too if we just figure out what we're gonna do enough alone i am looking forward to see uh all these probabilistic models um you know how accurate they are if they turn out to be as good as some of the mmps are pitching them then then it's going to be interesting the interesting piece about a probabilistic model is there is no way to to to quantify whether it's correct or not so that's that's definitely going to be interesting piece uh felipe yeah i think uh paul i think you're right because the immediate answer is uh yeah you know they'll probably pivot right um or at least some of their business units will

pivot um into what we shall see um but to your point paul um they're going to redefine the truth as we know it now right and we're all going to sort of accept it because that's the new norm and that's the truth of the new paradigm and yet it's kind of a you know it's going to be hard to verify it and yet it's going to be a tough pill to swallow for a lot probably so we've been we've been doing that for 10 years as well i mean attribution today we've all accepted how it's done and that's how it's done will uh will google follow apple with idfa with the id deprecation so google ad id do you think they will make some changes uh philippo no absolutely not that's that's my wishful thinking no i think i mean obviously i'm not gonna speak for google here but uh um i think there's possibly some people

at google who know that there is an opportunity here to um probably make a little bit of extra money here you know uh maybe that's uh that's the speculation uh does google care about privacy of course they do you know that goes without saying and it could be that google will just be uh pressured into changing as well rather than them making a business decision who's going to apply that pressure oh god um am i still in 20 seconds here probably probably probably the mounting pressure of their own lawyers due to the endless list of uh congressional conversations court cases etc things like that you know there's sometimes you just you fall under that pressure thank you for that andre what do you think yeah i think that they're going to save the idfa like tracking as like a bone to

give out when if something gets really bad for them legally which thus means probably not in the next 12 months but probably in two years they will have to take that card out and be like fine we'll give you partial tracking uh privacy features um i think it'll be very very hard for them to remove all tracking the way apple did just because of the way the ecosystem works um there's just too many hurdles to do that but they'll try something hold on anything to add that yeah look the short answer is that we don't know um i can tell you that at fibre we operate based on the premise that it's happening any moment and so whatever we built for ios that can be relevant to android for example a contextual parameter suite we deployed on android as well um and we're studying the refer apis and whatever whatever can help us uh prepare in advance because it's happening if it's in two years great if it's two months we want to be ready so

all right so we have uh three minutes left so i want to talk about the number one priority for game studios preparing for a post idfa world what would your recommendation be uh alan let's start with you uh for game studios uh look one thing that's not gonna change uh when you're doing user acquisition is um that some sources will still perform better than others and so what we're trying to do with with game studios that are you know we're working we operate on exchange but we try to work directly with the marketeers to try and help them find the insights to discover those better sources faster and so my recommendation is um besides you know looking at the studying the new models out there and trying different partners is to also get closer to the supply sources as much as possible at least those that give you the access and try to see how you can get to a

position where you find the good sources fast thank you andre yeah i mean to to echo a lot uh it's i think that you have to be looking aggressively at every new provider in service out there because it's actually kind of nice to have competition now uh for who's going to take over attribution um and going towards that end i think that the as you said being closer to the source is always better um so you don't you can't just trust you know some aggregator anymore which is good i think it's good for everyone to be aware of this felipe what do you think um well i'm i should give a similar answer in terms of just talking about growth uh but i'm a big product uh believer i love product and um as we can tell from all our answers

we don't really have a uh clear you know i mean we have some ideas but it's difficult to predict the future so my my message to gaming studios would be focus on on on the content um just to basically expand on what andre was saying before like it's you're gonna have to look at if your game is too well focused then what are the ways to make monies from the dolphins and the minnows as well so just make a great game that can make money across all spectrums across the entire curve um without any unbalance all in favor of whales are all in favor of minnows and then everything else becomes much easier you know you can tinker and experiment as much as you want with creative and do all sorts of crazy stuff and try to figure out what's the best way to track and so on and so forth you know um probably not the ideal answer but

that that that's what i would do focus on high quality content so my one recommendation i'll give one here is is to implement the sk ad network framework so um but in the next two to three months i'd really recommend all game studios work either with their mmp or directly with apple to uh implement that because if you don't you're not going to be able to tr attribute at all on ios cool so how do we think ua budgeting changes on on um on ios 14 do we adjust budgets off say a d1d370 d7 row as offer short term rows or do you think do you think it may move to something else but what do you think yeah well uh let's again looking into the crystal ball um i think it's quite obvious that

it's going to need as many early signals as possible just going from the current guidance of the documentation from apple it's i mean it's still a little bit fuzzy how many like you know if we're optimizing by day 7 day 14 signals for like a super hardcore game uh that might be a bit of a struggle hence the the cannot hunt whales anymore um so that's that's going to be one of the the hardest things that it's you probably need to find different um early signals to say you know this is good raw ass or this is good engagement this is good retention whatever you can hold on to to optimize basically in the uh as early as possible but the documentation might change in the coming months what do you what do you think about budgeting how are you how are we going to

turn so we have this this value called conversion value from apple that gives us some insight to post-insult performance are we going to use that to determine how to allocate budgets or something else what do you think i've heard everything by now um the one thing that i've uh that i that we noticed is that there is a lot of um category targeting or you know some sort of contextual targeting that we actually see from hyper-casual publishers quite a bit um so i wonder if um if they're just going to continue as usual and if others will follow suit in terms of how they uh how they both target and how they measure um but regarding like which uh which model uh and if you're just gonna use ska network as felipe said i mean uh we'll see what bones uh apple throws us in the next few months but right now i think everybody is trying everything andre yeah i mean

sk ad network is is still in my in my opinion highly undocumented uh in especially the conversion value department um like we might as well be trying to send noise over and see what happens because we don't know maybe nothing happens maybe like the wire is not connected at apple side yet so i don't know and it makes it hard also to test multiple ways of doing it uh multiple ways of calculating these values because you can't a b test you can't compare you know adjusts versus you know i don't know flyers conversion value algorithm um or your own events um so it makes it for a very large problem to solve um i think that the the interesting thing that i think it's nice to have is that esd1 d7 are important and i think they'll remain being important but if you think about apple's like idea

and what they're pushing is like yeah we should if you make a better game with a bigger you know funnel of actually engaging work that not just whales want to engage with then we should still be striving for something longer than d7 because that's where that a lot of problems get solved if you could get to that point cool thank you for that um so deep in diving a little bit deeper on attribution uh can you talk about how growth teams are gonna address attribution on ios uh ios post post application um yeah yeah i mean you've you know andre and philippo especially you've been work probably working with the mmp from this your mmps to understand what that's going to look like or building your own solutions i'm curious yeah what do you think what do you think that's going to look like post post ios 14.

do you want to go oh okay i was just i was just waiting for a long to go um yeah i mean the the the model is like uh alone was saying you know these probabilistic models uh and there is a lot of talk of um incrementality and uh it's it's becoming the the new buzzword like fraud like big data and all this um it's actually extremely hard to see this now we really need to see real numbers to understand what's what's going on even an incrementality model might be wrong at this point um [Music] but we we we need to see it in action and it will be a few months uh but what we're thinking about is some form of incrementality certainly

um and then as far as retargeting is concerned i mean the focus of that will only be internal so not paid retargeting uh for now but just you know all the various channels you have internally from social media to push messaging to in-game messaging and so on because you have your own ecosystem with your own id andre you're a data scientist i'm expecting a really smart answer on probabilistic a probabilistic model you know a media mix model which i think is also a probabilistic model what do you think how do you think um how do you think attribution looks like on ios 14 i mean i like to i i like the opportunity that idfa is giving to data scientists to aim higher right and to try some stuff like you know you know hit for the fence and see where it lands so things like top down attribution phrases sounds really interesting which

is a different way of saying media mix right in some ways um probabilistic sounds interesting as well if it could be done uh truly probabilistically um the because there's ways to cheat that's the unfortunate thing and we'll never really know for sure um so i think all of them are are valid um and i think they all have a chance and i you know as felipe was mentioning you know retargeting is probably gonna come down back to being like something you do just like with push notifications and emails and stuff like that there is a little bit of me thinking of like now that people are making better games because they have to improve not just the whale side but minnows and dolphins as well is there's a whole world of you know cross app promotion you know ecosystem that went away with game center right uh and and maybe there is something there to bring back

the whole feeling of hey you know i play this game and i see this other game because we share the same sdk internally that and we get cross promotion again back from within the app so i think there's some really cool stuff uh the data science part is obviously the most exciting but i think that there is a there is a definitely a room for like cool game mechanics to come back that have gone away for a couple years now great thank you alan anything to add on how growth teams address attribution i just wanted to say we love data scientists um and uh you know one of the things that we we attempted to do and i think it will help people like andre is did whatever we can that is privacy privacy friendly right so we brought uh we brought along a lot of contextual parameters i mean you can call them contextual or just privacy friendly parameters that can be used um you know like session depth what was the last ad the user saw things that definitely fall in line with apple's guidance it's not like the idfa

but it's certainly bringing you hopefully closer closer to be able to uh you know maintain a level of intelligence and that people like andre can actually you know keep keep the growth teams uh good at their job cool thank you so andre you touched a little bit on cross promotion as an exciting opportunity um i think you know generally that especially between studios class formation is is pretty much dead right now uh within studios i think it's it's still it's still important but not not relative to to new user acquisition so there's been some debate on idfv um how do you think that's going to factor into into growth for marketing teams is that going to be something we're talking about or is it just a just a talking point right now i think it's a talking point because technically i i have difficulty understanding the value of idea v for anything large scale right because

it's an id based on the device based on the fact from the publishers connected to it so we can i can't share my my my idf fees with filippo unless we both publish under the same title under the same label so i think it's going to be very hard you might as well use ip addresses at that point that's my feeling of this alone first of all id3 is not new i know you guys know but everybody you know everybody talks about idfv if as if it wasn't released the same day that idfa was released so this is not new and in fact many platforms out there were collecting it because we need to be able to reward users and you know just count daily active users and different things that the idf was used for is it going to help you track users across apps no will it help you track your own whales perhaps if you if you there's a lot of consolidation out there um that can help you right if you're a

very big company with a lot of studios and a lot of games then you can suddenly have your own cisco ecosystem for advertisers far-fetched but that is something that we expect to see right because as andre said if a lot of a lot of students are under the same label the idfv is kind of like an idea faith for them um and last but not least i mean look it's a people use it for frequency capping so there is there is value in it we need it right now um with this with the studio with one game philippe what do you think about idfv well that i think you've answered the question already by saying one game who cares uh it's definitely hopefully more valuable for a tilting point than it is for for us um um it is as alone said it's become another hot topic like uh like incrementality probabilistic modeling um and and uh i think it's important for

everyone to remember that if it's trackable and not approved by apple then it's a no-go now whether apple will start policing this uh you know by banning you and whatever that's another story um so you also have to make a very specific business decision to to pick a hack if you will which is not a hack idf is not a hack but um apple has made it quite clear in their guidelines if it's something trackable then it's gonna come out a scad network and that's it um so so yeah it's not you know it's just another big talking point in and and it's healthy to have that discussion but let's be real as well cool so i'm just going to move on to some of the q a just to go off off topic a little bit so um one of a couple of people within the uh have asked questions around hyper casual so obviously there's been a meteorite rise in fiber casually over the last three two or three years i guess um the

business model is is fully reliant on on ad monetization uh with razor thin margins i'm curious um andre what do you think about hype casual as a genre do you think it's sustainable given this 80 drop that we're gonna see my assumption is not but um i'm curious to hear your thoughts you know i i hope it's sustainable because it's some of the best games are are these hyper casual games because the mechanics do make sense uh it's just that like they the development cycle is like okay guys you have one week to make the game and publish it uh and not you know eight months ten months to to really polish it so i hope that it is sustainable um but but given you said there's gonna be an eighty percent dropping out yeah i know i don't know i uh i think it comes down to you you have to add other mechanisms on top of it right

you need the the meta metagame to be added to these games and i think if you can add those maybe it's something that's replicatable across all games that you have like voodoo i don't know uh if you could add that little component to all your games and have the the basic examples like this is back five eight years ago right uh gold upgrade for the game get the super special cannon that's made of gold for 9.99 and share it with your friends um maybe that's how they'll remain sustainable so so these are no longer hyper casual as games as they're known today though right big you know the hybrid hybrid casual or or casual whatever you want to call them felipe what do you think yeah i think that that's it that the what we said before as well that if the game that this time in history is encouraging us to make better games right so i think we're already seeing the hyper casual world

this kind of slow upgrade towards the is commonly defined as hybrid casual or something along those lines uh like if you look at game jam for example or companies like that they're more puzzlers than just hyper casual brain dead stuff so uh but they're great mechanics still this is um but you know the so i i that is more likely to happen because they they need to cover a wider spectrum uh that is of of the monetization curve which is not covered by the ads but will be covered by the product through the in-app purchases cool alon any anything to add there we hear a lot of people asking us if uh hyper casual is dead um from at least from a user acquisition perspective right if they can continue uh grow every new game we don't think it's dead based on what we see a lot of hyper-casual advertisers are actually yeah they use the idfa et cetera

for for different kind of measurements but they target quite a bit based on categories i mean it's it's clear when you actually see the analysis on how the buying is being done from some of the names you you mentioned um and again we're at least trying to help with uh with other things like session debt you know try to figure out if they can bid on uh and buy the first impressions of every uh every app um sorry every app session um we don't think it's dead we actually think that some of the practices they've been using in the last few few years uh can actually stay and so i'm optimistic about about this genre cool so another question from the q a are you as optimistic about ad fraud being dead on ios 14 is that is it done now apple's apple's doing the attribution or or are we going to see it rear its head under some other form i i i will take a stab at it

you know not all ads or app install ads first of all and so there's a lot of uh some of them the most uh app fraud you'll see um especially for the you know the simple banners um it's just there to uh to you know take on impressions that load somewhere behind the scenes etc so that unfortunately is not dead and i also don't see how this is being addressed by the deprecation of idfa and the introduction of scad network um so that that is definitely staying with us unfortunately regarding the rest i'll actually uh defer to philippine andre philippe filippo is brought dead on ios 14 no fraud will never die in a business where there's a lot of money period but it it's as always it's uh way overestimated as a problem you agree andre well now i was gonna start from the end of filippo's answer

backwards i was gonna say you know you know if you focus on like the ad networks that uh that are that perform the best like admob and facebook there is almost no incentive to for ed fraud to add fraud to exist in the first place and from the whale hunting targeting you know kind of system like so to me i don't really see at fraud as being a big problem today um but yes if you're talking about like the little crappy banner ad that you put on the bottom of a clicker game where i click on it three times every session yeah absolutely and it's still going to remain being a problem cool um so a math question from the audience if average cpms drop both ua and administration average cpm's drop so the average roi and roads will remain the same isn't it why worry andre what do you think about that if if the whole if if everything just everything cuts by 80 percent surely

surely we're are we in the same position see cpi's are eighty percent down uh mom is eighty percent down are we good you know i'm a data scientist not an economist um the the question i don't think it will be the same it will not be even um and i mean that the drop will not be even because the the targeting still to some extent exists just in a broader sense so your ad revenue will drop but you still can target the united states uh you can still target you know some some players and some users who are more expensive to target so it will not be even and you'll have to make uh some calculations on how to make that work but that's just me another follow-up question that i actually think a lot more is how will they develop next year because yes there is going to be some crazy shifts but i don't think it's a

ship that will stay forever it will the ecosystem will evolve the question is which direction which both of those numbers go up or down i don't know cool could you feel anything to add there in terms of the economics and on the buy and sell side no i think andre gave a really complete answer at the the i think the the point is that um since we're all in the same boat isn't it just gonna work out anyway um and uh the answer is no because we're not all on the same boat because we all have different products but especially people are forgetting that we're on this boat with uh brands and so the there is actually potentially an opportunity for you know the bigger names out there to to even find more competitive pricing for themselves and price us all out nicely

so it remains to be seen but i'm i'm not hanging on for this sudden oh my cpi has gone from five to one dollar overnight no hello any thoughts about that well first of all i like the optimistic question you know it sounds like everything is just gonna work out so i like the optimistic nature of that question um look i think what's gonna happen and why why we will see some negative effect initially is because people will wait to see what happens meaning what will be impacted is the appetite and uh the willingness to take risk right to explore new inventory when you don't know much about it and so even if everything will you know will reach a new point of equilibrium as the question suggests i'm just saying it might take a little bit of time right there's ecpms might not be impacted allegedly you know like everything will balance but fill rates might be impacted meaning the appetite to try and buy this inventory um so if you

ask me there will be some short-term impact but at the end we will reach a new a new equilibrium point right we will we will figure it out cool um great so i'm curious everyone seems well a little concerned for the future but also excited uh to see what it see what it looks like i feel like this this industry's sort of 10 years old now and had got a little bit stale and this is really shaking things up i'm curious what what everyone thinks is the biggest opportunity that emerges with idfa deprecation uh felipe do you want to go first what who what do you think the biggest opportunity is who's going to capitalize on it uh well let's hope uh just echoing what i said before creative marketing will really go go wild in a nice way because there is a little

bit of staleness in the advertising um and also you know products will really become that much better and attract that many more gamers maybe offer some really premium aaa kind of experiences even though we have some sort of definition of aaa in the market now but it's not it's not at the level that you would see on on console or uh of course the console experience is very different from a handheld device but still there could be some real new economies emerging that are very interesting so that there is a there isn't there is an opportunity there if we can capitalize on it andre what do you think on from yeah from game dev side from from the mastering side whichever side you want to take it yeah i think that the the idea i say if the way i see it is you know the it has

basically uh taken out the the mnp's from being the center equation that also created the ad advertises to be in this central part of the equation for product and and i would go like that to be a little cliche but you know it kind of democratizes the whole mobile ecosystem finally everyone has an equal amount of data an equal amount of opportunity and insight and and and gut feeling and and a lot of things in a good game is what's going to make a difference um so in in a way i think everyone is actually winning uh at a fair level right everyone now everyone from the small developer to the large ea developer has equal abilities to to make a good game and also to advertise it and reach the same audience so i think that this is actually really good for the whole thing for the whole ecosystem

alone anything to add that i really agree with andre when there's mess there's an opportunity right uh i think there's a level playing field now um i'm excited about new entrants i'm excited about smaller publishers um trying new things trying to do things on their own perhaps i mean the you know it takes away the pitch of a secret sauce slash ai slash ml um those will be there andre but but yeah i i'm excited about uh about the fact that now everybody's on the same plane playing field at least for a while cool um so lightning round number two who are going to be the biggest winners and losers um so 30 seconds for your responses max if you just want to name one company then great if you want to name a segment of companies that's good as well alon biggest winner um creative studios i mean those that

create uh beautiful playables um yeah interesting what can you explain a bit more i just think yeah you gave me 20 seconds i just think that those uh there's uh the creative is going to be uh much more important as all of you said previously and i think that uh the industry will start to explore and either build new creative studios or work with the existing ones there are a few out there that are really really good i think they're going to see they're already seeing more people turn and ask them for help thank you andre who do you think is going to be the biggest winner i think that's the whole new ecosystem of companies uh providing to you a way of marketing so i'll go lift style things uh anyone that has a top-down approach any of these i think have a are big winners now cool felipe well i'm gonna say something that might surprise as many people but uh i'm gonna say apple um explain more 30 seconds

yeah no it's very simple not for the obvious reasons um like you know owning the ecosystem and so on but actually what we noticed is that there has been an increase in communication from apple and dialogue with different developers and different other actors in the ecosystem they came out with this announcement they realized that it got some some feedback let's not say whether positive or negative feedback and they started talking a bit more and listening instead of taking a step back and going okay well we'll think we'll think this through hopefully that will lead to a more organized industry where there is proper there is a proper table where we can discuss with apple different things rather than just have this sort of unbalanced relationship uh where we can't say you know we can't have these conversations with apple all together as a as a group cool um you all went for that one yes yeah sorry

uh no andre did you go sorry you did go yeah um okay so we did biggest winner biggest loser be as non-political or political as you'd like to be here uh alan do you want to go first who's the biggest loser uh i'll just say i'm worried about the companies that are trying to circumvent apple's new policy i nothing there is long-lived if you ask me i think apple are serious they might throw us a bone here and there improve scad network but if you're trying to track uh you will be blocked at some point one way or another felipe what do you think about that biggest loser is it um it's a tough one to respond uh in a politically correct fashion i'm i'm gonna echo a little bit alone here and say whoever is making the most noise about this is definitely gonna be the biggest loser um

and trying to murky the waters with uh a lot of noise around uh incrementality or probabilistic or special kinds of targeting and trackability anyone just um doing a lot of content marketing around their wishful thinking is not focusing on the right things right now andre what do you think yeah i mean i was going to be way more specific so i'll brought it to philippo i think retargeting as an industry will have to pivot right so to something else i don't know what that is i don't know what they're saying um but uh remerge addictive like all these like hi very specialized targeting companies or retargeting need to we'll have to come for something different um but let's just say that's just like a small part of the whole ecosystem so it's they're quite small losers in the end it's not you know a whole whole side of

the industry going away cool great all right well i think we're at time now so um thank you everyone for your your contributions very insightful um and yeah i think looking forward to seeing what ios what the privacy changes bring for all of us uh early next year when apple apple finally pushes them out great job paul thank you thank you paul thank you paul thanks everyone bye bye you