Boost your UA with channel diversification & high performing creative frameworks w/ Mistplay (#67)

this is no [ __ ] gaming podcast 2 and a half Gamers sharing actionable insights dropping Knowledge from our day-to-day user acquisition game design and AD monetization jobs we are definitely not discussing the latest industry news but having so much fun let's not forget this is a 400 a.m. conference discussion Vibe so let's not take it too seriously in person so this is a live session obviously it's not live but it will be next week well I guess this week where are we recording where are we oh well we are in uh in Vegas we're recording at Ma conference which is amazing and we have uh Tiffany and Greg with us uh our great sponsors as well and we are talking about the UA all the fun stuff but before we do that like let's do a round of intro so let's start with that well not let's let's start ladies first start with

so Tiffany here a senior UA manager at misplay I've been in the industry about four years now uh started off at uh plti Montreal studio for about two years working at uh with World Series of Poker and then launching new games as well namely Cat Force um and it's about 21 months that I've been at misplay managing both UA and the retargeting efforts that's right tough act to follow here now yeah yeah no Greg Greg Pang director of UA for for misplay um I've been in the industry for about 15 years now which seems like am I dating myself no it seems like a long time and I've spent about the past 8 to nine years specifically in the mobile space um I think you know amongst this conversation and we're at Mau probably one of the most relevant experiences is my time at Jam City I spent about 3 years there leading the UA team worked on titles acquiring users in Panda poop Disney

Emoji Blitz Harry Potter Hogwarts mystery so you worked on the the title from the Colombian team as well no uh World War do I I worked on some of the soft launch pieces but in 2019 when I left they were just going into kind of the the next phase of development but great game by the way great concept yeah um that's yeah that's yeah yeah that that's it and maybe the the timing wasn't there right the PVP royal royal rumble style so I I I remember to late weing working with that game and we were in bot for the Columbia 4.0 conference okay we met the team and started talking to to them and then afterwards we just like yeah briefly work with the J C yeah they have a lot of great talent down in South America really a lot of good Studios doing good stuff yeah what time lots of players as well yeah that that's

how it works look you both have the experience from the the gaming as well how that translates into what you're doing at the moment because I imagine it's quite different yeah how do you compare the the gaming versus the what you're doing yeah it's it's I would say it kind of straddles two different categories in that you know we are a cash in cash out Rewards app right so we kind of fall in the category of entertainment and lifestyle but we are in the gaming industry in that we feature hundreds of games and we allow you know our community of over a million Gamers plus to access their favorite titles so um it's it's interesting just because the scope of who we can acquire isn't just a casual player or isn't just an RPG right it's everybody in the gaming industry or the the gaming ecosystem plus people who want you know deals or people who want you know gift cards so our our range of the audience that we're looking at and we're

acquiring is is a lot more broad so that's definitely you know an advantageous place to to be in okay how do you so yeah to add on on the creative side I think uh to Echo what Greg said it's like we can Target as broad as we want as well as as specific as we want depending on our strategy as well as working with our partners um like you said we have like the casual gamers the RPG Gamers that we can Target specifically with our creatives as well as just general people who are into to like the reward earning um space what what the strategy then yeah know I wanted to ask a follow-up question there because like I'm known as the third best UA manager on the podcast this just means I don't really know that much about UA but I'm just super curious like why does misplay work and how does it work and why does it work so well cuz MCH told me it works yeah so I think there's a couple of ways to to think about it so you know misplay as the value proposition is the number one loyalty you know uh game ecosystem for mobile Gamers right and so

you know people look at misplay as a loyalty driven media Source essentially right we have kind of a a full feedback loop a full ecosystem where you know we acquire the user users come to misplay to download their favorite titles right they get rewarded by playing those games um by getting units by getting gems and then game currency and on the back end they can actually exchange those units and those gems for real cash rewards so it's a win-win situation for the user it's a win-win situation for the actual client that we're working with because we through the power of loyalty we can drive engagement we can drive Roi and long-term long-term LTV so okay um so if I summarize that it's like the power of rewards rewarding users little bit of money as well there's there's a little bit in of incentive on the user side but I think largely the way to think about it and articulate it is leveraging and

harnessing the power of loyalty to drive acquisition okay yeah how does it translate to the kpis you have yeah great great question um so I would say there's two ways to think about it but in the context of this conversation let's just talk about the demand piece right for us um there's going to be a subset of primary and secondary kpis of course every game and every publisher is going to be different right there is no one siiz fits all how however um we look at things largely the same as um some Publishers out there in terms of performance is always going to be king for us right a dollar spent and a dollar return so return on ad spend is really the one of the primary kpis that we look at from a day-to-day operational basis okay and how would you measure that if if you if you drive the players that actually play the games and then you kind of measure the ROI on the other side of the business

yeah so there's there's there's two layers right I know it gets a little bit complex right what we want so again so again I think we should kind of frame the conversation in terms of just what we look at from the demand perspective and not the ad Network media source side right so in terms of is like the ad Network portion is it calculated in the LTV or not the ad Network portion so we technically have a couple of ltvs that we're working with right our own our own proprietary LTV as well as how we think of just C Downstream client performance but again from the from the perspective of how we think about you know LTV toac and acquisition cost it's how much we spend to acquire the user from whatever ad Network that we're working with and the um the CPI that we're essentially charging the the client so that's typically how we look at

a dollar spent to acquire and a dollar that we're you know getting in return sounds pretty complicated I mean it's I think it's complicated if it's the first time that you've you know gotten exposure to let's say loyalty apps um cash rewards based apps but I think when it comes down to it it's best articulated in kind of two different models and for this conversation it's the the first demand driven model so what's like the secret behind misplay and like why it's become so supercharged you guys are growing like crazy like there's a lot of rewards apps out there but what's the difference actually is it the scale only or is there anything else yeah I'll I'll let I would say te it up to Tiff really uh I think Greg mentioned it performance is King I think just being really on top of it being really strict about our targets and reaching those with our partners and working with all the UA Partners to reach those goals which essentially translate into good performance for our clients and they

come back um to us for this good performance I think that has really booster our reputation as well helped or scale um I would say game selection is definitely uh a big plus with misplay we have over like 200 300 games don't quote us on the number but there is a there's a growing there's a growing portfolio of of games available on on Miss yeah we have some of the big titles as well so you know I think it's listening to our community and like trying to figure out like what do they like what do they want and also trying to our best to like provide that for our users as well so if I understand it correctly so if you do do your job and you suck then the other way of the business suck as well exactly so we like to refer this as kind of like a full flywheel effect is very elegant yeah if if we if we drive again if we drive bad users into the ecosystem good at what you do and clients right see bad

performance then the flywheel doesn't work right but if we're doing our jobs we're driving the requisite quality into the app then you know the clients are happy at the end of the day it's a delicate balance I don't want to say it's a black or white thing like we do our jobs then the clients are happy there's always going to be instances where we you know need to need to balance things right and so um I would say that things aren't always linear and we need to work very very closely with cross functional stakeholders right whether that means the product team whether that means the sales and Commercial organizations whether that means you know the data analysts that we work with on a day-to-day basis to unlock insights right it's a it's an entirely you know team team Le effort it's not just the UA piece there's a lot of different components of the business that need to work together in order for break it down is the curation and it's the cross functionality and yes can we get like one more key word yeah yeah curation is a is a really

good word I think our sales team does does a really good job of keeping their pulse to the market and and seeing and knowing what our community wants right in terms of let's say the the top 300 titles right I also think that our and again not speaking to what the competition is doing but I think our product is is very elevated and very elegant in terms of being personalized and data driven I think if you talk to anybody you know on our El team um or really anybody out there we're we're an AI almost first datadriven company and so our product really before AI got popular yeah before AI got before became before chat GPT Mark Mark Mark our word before it was a buzz word um we really hung our hat on being a data first personalized hey you give us some inputs and we'll personalize your what we call the mix list or the games list right uh

based on your preference so yeah I would throw AI into that into that bu yes exactly exactly metee so does it make any difference if you un board like a new game into your app in terms of the UA like have you seen any differences like hey so okay well right Shadow Legends yeah MPL now use it in the in the UA how does that how does that work yeah I I again I'll I'll te it up to Tiff and I'll kind of reinforce or back up anything yeah I think if it's a huge title uh would usually be in collaboration with commercial team and like know that it's coming and we're prepping and looking forward to hopefully the uptake in performance um but we've also done some like partnership as well um collaboration with some of the big titles where like we if they give us the rights to like

advertise um their title and letting them know that hey missplays onboarding like a really big game um then that's kind of like the collaboration we try to do uh that being said it does require like more product features and product updates uh We've tested it previously um and then I think we're still fine-tuning let's say like the straight deep linking type of Technology um I see you shaking your head it's not easy always okay yeah I mean to reinforce that I would say in some cas cases yes in other cases no if it's a big title if it's a Smash Hit they're willing to put you know a lot of dollars and and budget around it then it absolutely has a a pretty big impact on kind of the overall business or like the day-to-day operation but let's say if it's a a smaller title there's not as much let's say Buzz around it um it's probably going to be less of a impact to the overall so it really is Case by case okay yeah so let's let's say if you work

with Marvel snap does it make difference for you guys in terms of the UA well it it really depends on how much budget they're willing to to put behind it right um however however I mean again that's more of a that's more of a calling [ __ ] it's more of a diplomatic answer but it it also really depends right it's it's Case by case because some partners are are very open uh for us to use their IP right or to use different things right um which budget but like if you can use their IP rather it's a it's a bit of both right um and so yeah there's there is a bit of balance that we have to kind of um approach the partner with is do gaming companies look down at the fact that is a rewarded app like kind of rewarded no absolutely not I think I think um I mean if they look down upon it they wouldn't be spending with with misplay right and so sometimes they don't even understand it yeah well at

the end at the end of the day I think for a lot of Publishers because they view misplay as a media Source if the performance is there and we're driving quality if they're driving quality users then I wouldn't say it almost doesn't matter but um the bottom line is they're getting the user base that they want um and they're able to to spend their budget so okay how much have you spent on misplay yeah how much was that how much was that hat by the way that was free Char look so I was I was actually adding misplay like a few years back when you didn't even have the dra algo yeah I was all like CPI based and it was already like back then like working quite well so so now I guess it's working all right better but I wanted to ask like you mentioned like cross like team and Department communication like and process like how does that work I mean like that sounds like really like a lot of work

work yeah um I would say you know at this stage of growth and misplay we're we're still only 200 people right and so 200 I mean you I mean you talk to some of these larger gaming Studios they're like 800,000 people right so um from looking at kind of our our scale how much we're spending how much we're expected to generate in terms of Revenue we're we're still relatively like a a pretty agile team right so um we have task forces we have pods we have pretty streamlined ways of of communicating to other teams right um I would say um at the core of what we do sits data enablement and data analytics and they I don't want to say they drive all the decisions but they are a key stakeholder and and everything that we do so data kind of sits at the middle and supports you know us sales and Commercial and the product team um to to

kind of do what we do so um we have a pretty good working relationship with all the teams across the company on side or remote remote uh well I'm in Montreal so the head office is there um but like Greg is working sitting in uh New York um but we get the opportunity of like I think two times a year of having a company All Hands Where like we bring everyone to Montreal and have a working session um kind of like Foster that collaboration even further um yeah is it working well meeting people I mean it it did it's very exhausting for sure like it's the same as being at Ma right now um but really being able to sit next to like my data analyst and like talk through things um and understand each other better like what exactly you're looking at what exactly I'm looking at um definitely helps yeah okay and uh talking about the data like what kind of sources you are running actually the UA

on how does it look like yeah yeah like are UA sources UA sour yeah I mean in in terms of you know looking at the overall media Source portfolio um because we do operate in the gaming space and we are acquiring users for gamers right it's it's going to be different right it's it's it's different right to to our earlier point in terms of us having a wider audience that helps us but in terms of the channels it's it's going to be pretty much in line with let's say a king or a playerx or a jam city right they're almost tapping into some of the same user pools right which which makes it a little bit harder but um you know you you look at our meteor portfolio and it's definitely heavy on let's say self- attributed networks right your Googles and your Facebooks of the worlds um and then we're also um reliant on Direct sdks right um we're also doing a lot with dsps um but I think across our media

portfolio the the one thing that potentially makes us the most exciting and maybe I speak for both of us is some of the non-traditional kind of um you know sources that we've seen work well um that we think are going to be uh you know very sustainable for the for the future we talk about CTV it's probably you know every single panel and every single talk at Ma on the agenda this year is talking about connected TV right I think it's definitely one of those things that has um the potential to become really really huge I think the stat was 85% of all us households have an OT or a CTV streaming device right and so there's huge potential because the device penetration is there I think it's still early days in terms of making it work purely from a gaming perspective um and you know I think Tiff could add on I think what's interesting

is that um when we first started testing like CTV we thought that it would be more of a brand play you know I think that was everyone's expectation more like awareness um but I think the CTV Partners know that as UA managers were really performance driven and like it really needs to nail down like row ass uh and the tracking attribution correctly obviously it's not perfect right now but from our experience it's actually better than we expected we would say perfect how do work no I have a CTV on my list for this year yeah but it requires like like really big amount of budgets as well what's a big amount when you say big amounts not NE not necessar not necessarily I think um now that has it has become available across some of these larger networks right unnamed here but you can start with smaller budgets can you define smaller budget though like what kind of range let's call it you know uh 500 to 1,000 a

day right that's that's on the smaller side ofk a month that's like a standard test budget right so I think there's some some real legs and some real opportunity there um I think we're still early in terms of the inventory coming online right and also the ability to to bid into those inventory sources on more of a programmatic level right I think they're still trying to figure those components out but I think really this the sky is almost the the limit if we can make it work from a programmatic and a scalable piece so how does it work for you so I mean you don't need to say like who are you working with but from the day one to let's say day 30 and the RO us afterwards like how like what's the journey look like because everybody's like oh well we need to go to the CTV like yeah let's do it that's it nobody nobody know stop yeah I

mean I would say now that the attribution piece is quote unquote figured out right and they figured out a way to you know attribute based on a view or based on your your household IP right um now that that's less of a concern we you almost treat it as a normal performance campaign or a normal performance channel right if it's not performing to your earlyer your D30 row as goals um yes you kind of want to consider it a little bit differently just because the viewr component is there um but at the end of the day if the performance is not there or there then you consider scaling it up so how do you define the U through component in the whole CTV performance yeah so there's there's a couple of ways to to I think look at it there is the pure directly attributed um attribution that you get from it through things like QR codes right um and then from a a viewr standpoint

you're doing an IP match right and you're relying on that however there is kind of this multi-touch assisted install piece that you have to consider that isn't directly baked into reporting and you know that's that's something that you know we work with our data analysts and our data analytics teams of course yeah and and we we work with our data analyst to to to understand that and come up with a uh a model that is going to be closer to the truth right you're never going to get the 100% truth but if you have a model and if you have a framework yeah welcome welcome to UA right so as long as you have some kind of framework some kind of model in place to help you get closer to the truth I think you're in better position so the one thing I would add I think the creative piece is a little different so you would have to do a little bit more of lead work um before launching uh I feel like with our other kind of like UA Partners it's it's the classic like we have the concept we have a top winning

creative and then you kind of like push it across all of the UA partners and it usually will work out uh but for CTV I think it required like more sophisticated type of like um design work behind it and the QR code what does it mean it's it's almost like it's almost like it's almost like a completely different set of assets that you have to think about and ideate and and produce and test on right for example um you know the orientation typically is a lot more landscape and has to be a lot more premium than let's say a 12 to 13 second video that you're going to serve on Facebook Stories right or Instagram stories um you also have to consider things like audio right audio is a huge component in in Connected TV because people are listening you know more often times than not on their devices whereas in Mobile traditionally lit sound Facebook right people were looking at their Newsfeed with sound off right so things like that very Niche learnings

that you have to bake into your creative production and your your um iterations are things that you know you unlock by doing the testing in um in the case of like Creative Concepts do you need to have like different concepts or like like you said like if you have a winner but you put audio that works or like it's completely different I would say it's it doesn't go too far off um like I think one of the creatives that had worked well in the past is like an explainer kind of like a three-step like what our app is about so we kind of like reiterated that but like with nicer kind of like assets and and resolution and and more like of a walk through cuz like once again like on mobile app you can just click on it and it'll lead you to the App Store versus like on TV like there's more handh holding I guess or that's the concept like we we've been testing out um it's still early to figure out if there's like specific uh creative for this audience but we're generally working off

of like our top creative or at least the knowledge of what we know works well for us um yeah I think that um Tiff is exactly right in that um the components of like a good creative on traditional mobile and CTV like the the bones are going to be there like foundationally right good storytelling good value proposition strong call to actions those things draw parallels you know across mobile and across CTV however to my earlier point and and Tiff's point just now it has to have a bit more premium feel to it it has to maybe uh index a little bit more on the storytelling because you also get a little bit longer format in some cases right um so th those would be the the main differences but again the parallels are there um and can you show the like the CV ads in the the post production afterwards yeah absolutely yeah um we're definitely leaning a little bit

more on animated to tell the story within CTV versus ug you know and we'll talk about it in the creative section but we're we're relying heavy on ugc to tell our story right and to tell our value proposition in traditional media so that's an example of where maybe that doesn't match up in terms of CTV versus traditional but um there are cases where they they do draw a lot of parallels okay before we go to the question creative section I mean how do you even test the the new UA channels and how often do you add the newa channels you Channel and like how often do you retest the channels that didn't work before that's important as well yeah you want to talk about the retest the retest yeah for sure um what it's funny CU we're at Mau and I feel like this is a good opportunity to speak with uh our past partners um really see what's up and what's new with their products if it's

like new inventory new algorithm and their product and listening to kind of like the industry too right like speaking to other like you managers and sometimes like you hear like hey like I've been testing with this partner and it's been doing really well that as to the case of like maybe we should give these guys uh another try um it's also good on our partners to reach out once like every quarter or like half a year and be like letting us know what's up as well um that's kind of like how we approach it otherwise um how how you approach the like the retest in terms of the campaign and the budget because it's also like on you already spend few dollars here and there on the on the channel so you need to be question I think the way that we would see it is like retesting it as a new partner like the same guidelines of like do you hit our targets once again um obviously there's Partners who do offer some credits I'm sure you would know that helps right uh especially since we

know that we've invested with you previously and it didn't work out like give us a little um to ease kind of like our mind about it as well um but I would say we review it as any new partner uh and our existing partner kind of like the targets that we need to hit the time frame we do it pretty much the same way I don't know yet no I think that's that's the perfect way of articulating it but I would say in general testing and experimentation and I think the thread that you pull out of that is diversification of media sources is something that you constantly need to do right it's an evergreen thing there go ad as well yeah there you go in in ad we talk about too in admon in product in data it's an always ongoing Evergreen testing and experimentation right so I I would say um that never goes away right there's always a need to test new sources there's always a need

there's always a to find new audiences to find new invent whether that comes in the of a new partner or whether that comes in the form of a retest it almost doesn't matter as long as we're finding those new audiences right okay so let's uh get back one step and uh like how do you find the new sources the first question then how ma ma ma and then what else like no I mean um best part is ma in yeah there there's we we have two and half Gamers like next year we are having a new inventory for all of you you start an affiliate Cowboy Network go Cowboy networks works now we we have like many many resources dedicated to going out there keeping our ear to the ground seeing like the movers and shakers right who's who's new to the industry um and uh I think we pride ourselves on going

out there and having the good conversations and really figuring out cuz there's a lot of fluff out there right let's let's be honest in thej I mean look I'm not going like yeah don't don't quote don't quote don't quote us on it but there's there's a lot of need to Wade through that fluff and and see at the end of the day you know who the the players are and what what are the actual Technologies and products that are driving U how do you like try to navigate in fluff like do you talk to other UA managers we have to have a lot of conversations whether it be with the UA vendors themselves to your point with our peers and other UA buyers and and managers so it's always good to have that kind of network that you can reach out to and say Hey you know how did this partner work for you or how did this Source work for you again it's not always going to be one to one because there are going to be specific business models that work with specific media sources but it's good to have your ear to the ground and your pulse to like

what's working no like for me as a consultant what works for like few games doesn't necessarily work for other games but at least I'm like oh well this is working for this game oh let's try it for this game as well yeah that's perfect and when I talk to other guys it's yeah it's always very helpful so how do you define the the kpis for the test of the partners because that's like something that I've like tried multiple times and find it really challenging because always like so I spend let's say 10K as a test budget Unity I finally get to the Ross Point of uh campaigns like oh well okay fine now is the Real Performance happening so I need to spend another 10K and then ah okay so now I spend 20K but 20K but performance is not getting anywhere should I stop it should I keep it how do you how do you are trying to to look at it conundrum yeah yeah

that's a good question uh and it's funny because I've gone through that phase as well trying to decide like UA manager yeah like do we keep do we stop does it get better does it not um but usually not unfortunately I would say uh we have a general like test budget that uh we establish for every partner but I think it's a very open conversation it has to be right a two-way street kind of like figuring out what is the expectations and what's the timeline like what is the learning phase that we're expecting what's the optimization phase and what's the scale phase and like weekly check-ins like did we hit it do we not um I would say like I think 1 to two month is kind of like our time frame uh depending on which partner once again sometimes theing say let's say Unity Unity yeah so you you start a campaign Unity Germany what happens how much money you you need to spend and then and like how long El it take to evaluate the I think the best

practice is generally like two weeks okay for the algorithm to learn depending on what time campaign you're launching is right cuz CPI campaigns like straight away you would know what's the performance and there's also that factor right usually Partners will ask you start with the CPI campaigns and then roll up to the next level and then roll up to like a row as targeting campaign um I would say by the time we get to the RAS uh like level I would give it another like two to 3 weeks usually we should be able to start seeing kind of like the D7 mature data and like how that rolls out how does that hit our kind of like short-term targets of D7 which obviously impacts our LTV like on a long term if it doesn't hit it we it's a conversation um optimization guys you guys need to work towards the target are we going to get there or not they're definitely going to do their best to reach it probably another two weeks if it doesn't hit it uh and we have other sources for Germany who's able to get better installs then

that's when we're like all right it's not working okay so yeah two months what kind of budget are you looking at it it really it really depends no again I'm going to give the I'm GNA give the I'm GNA give the business school answer however for us personally it's going to be anywhere from $500 to $1,000 a day at the at the minimum minimum right so you're looking at 15 to a month and I would say to add on to Tiff's Point not every partner is going to be linear not every partner is going to be like I'm going straight to the top right D7 Raz is going to be amazing coming out of the gate right it's always they say right but as long as we have the clear communication the alignment um and also the um acknowledgement that things aren't just going to go straight up right they might EB and flow it might go down we make an optimization this happens we Blacklist

some site IDs or whatever whatever it is as long as there's acknowledgement on both ends that we're making the necessary optimizations and they're being communicated both ways and they're seeing Improvement week over week I think that's one of the most important pieces because again after two weeks you're not going to see your D7 goals hit but as long as you're seeing consistent Improvement towards your goals and you're still able to maintain that scale right yeah I think that's a Cas where you would want to keep testing a partner right so it key like testing go for you guys us only or trying to expand yeah we so I think one of the distinctions of us as kind of a a loyalty based app and us you know different from like a game publisher we don't really have like the soft launch period and we don't have the technical launch period when we want to test a partner we almost go right into the live environment which means like North

America us us SP mostly yeah straight away so us okay and uh so like what kind of how many UA channels are you working with at the moment all of them all of them every single one yeah um it it really depends not to say I'm sorry sorry notation is so much more interesting can we get a can we get a depend counter on this no um we're probably in a given month working with anywhere from like 10 to 20 20 UA Partners right and it goes back to like the constant testing and experimentation right we want to have a consistent pipeline of new new partners and new tests and that just adds on right that's why I kind of give a range CU in any any given month we can be testing three to six to probably not 10 but within within that range of of New Media sources is your your calculation decimals about the budget they're spending

Millions it can be close to M anything about 1 million a month at least for testing no for like a whole UA I guess like for us yeah oh it's it's it's well it's well into the million like mult multi Millions so if you think about that and you take let's say 5% of that multi-million dollar budget that's like a pretty good testing you know pipeline or budget so okay so then like how many creatives you are testing it actually and where are you testing it I'm not going to give that answer no you say depends I'm ask you how you are and you're going to be like depends depends you're you're leaving I will answer that question with some numbers I will spare you from it how many Crea we aim about like 10 to 14 creatives per week and that's almost like 40 to 50 per month it really depends on so sorry it is driven it is driven by the performance need that we have um really the creative fatigue that we're seeing

as well as our design capacity um but that is our aim um we've had points where we're really in a flow of getting all the creatives out as well as testing so testing creative testing we do it two times uh sorry every two weeks kind of uh time frame sometimes about 7 to 14 days sometimes it could be shorter sometimes it could be okay generally not longer yeah how does this work like every two week so there's two platforms that we use to test creatives um Tik and Facebook sorry Tik and Facebook that's a good guess 50% right is not a guess it's kind of that's kind of it's kind of the standard it's good playbook at this pointa and I know that so us we have I guess an interesting spin to it is that we do Facebook so one social network another one more of a SDK so that we can see if this creative the top winning creative is consistent across all partners and that will give us that confidence to

launch it across what do Network rhyme with you can name it Unity Unity it's Unity it is Unity I think those are the two platforms that allows you to have separate creative campaigns testing beta yes okay nice yeah and how does that work because like not everybody knows that there is a creative T yeah I think it was rolled out relatively recently yeah it's pretty new we jumped on it the moment it was on beta and it it worked for us yeah what's the difference between like testing the create like using the creative testing campaign versus the normal campaign for Creative testing I think it's giving the chance of uh all the creatives some delivery and some learning that's like the best ideal way of testing creatives there has been definitely times with other bigger Partners where we just have to launch in ba because they don't have that kind of like framework uh and just see kind of like if it juggles with existing creatives or it doesn't and

then just fizzle up yeah yeah I think I think that's an important distinction like giving the creatives that you produced an actual shot to get the equal impression share or whatnot right A lot of times when you you roll it into like business as usual campaigns it's really hard to force that creative to to get those Impressions right so um using Facebook and using the unity creative tool it it gives us that that fair chance to see that performance right so and see the results as well yeah so what I tried to do on Facebook at least is to have a creative testing campaign and then just put the the vinners into business as usual but MH I just relaunched the business as usual just removed all the creatives that were performing before and just launch the new ones in the existing campaign yeah and it works yeah look there there is no like perfect I've tried like all kinds of things I know I tried like like four different uh creative testing like

variations and it's like always changing anyway yeah it's it's hard to know what's happening like behind the scenes in the black box but to your point I think it's just important to try anything and everything right see what works for you see what works for um a specific creative um I what I also saw is that even if I launch or like add the new the the vena creatives from the testing campaign into the business as usual it takes like a week or two weeks to pick up the spend and actually start performing when the like the vinners start to Decay then the venners from the creative testing caign just start to pick up but it's like sometimes you don't have the the patience to actually wait yeah two weeks is a long time I know okay um okay so we talked about a lot of things so any anything else than like besides the CTV oh no no no no CTV again creatives creatives because you were showing us on I think in January the the best performing creative from misplay which

was the the girl that was talking to herself yeah and I was looking at the at the creatives and it's still up there it's still performing well that's nice okay you know top creatives are really hard to beat sometimes no matter how much we try and iterate yeah oh that's that's amazing how how how does your creative process look like in terms of like the ideation phase because that's important how did like okay so how did you come first question how did you come up with the the concept that this person is talking to herself if if it was on your side of or it was on her side that actually like she came up with it is this it like someone like is it an influencer you paid to say exactly these things or is it like you just run wild with it or think about it as like the classic ugc right we're we're paying an actor or an influencer right to on our behalf to talk about missplay okay okay um so she

came up with the concept and then I would say I'll I'll start it off I think the credit goes to our design team um they are really kind of like always you know which credit I'm talking about I know exactly talking about yeah we all know know um really our creative team is always checking kind of like what's trending what's happening and getting a pulse of it um and I think that one I would like to say that we started off early on with the you concept and I think it was just we were talking about in January and I think like that that creative I think was getting like 15% of overall like views or impressions in some of the apps that was and it was only like a little bit later and you started running in the camp the creative for sure yeah so it was just you know a design team um kind of like had that idea and pitched it to the actor that like rehired and she executed super well it worked out how many Impressions do you think you shown like at least a couple billion right oh it's definitely in it's

definitely in the millions it's definitely in the millions um so that's kind of like how it came about um but honestly working with the design team it's like it's a full feedback loop right ideation we do it kind of like separately but also together we brainstorm kind of like on a monthly basis like what are the trends we're seeing what's relevant to us uh how can we spin it the misplay we then there's the prioritization right I think for one of the sessions we had like over 50 60 like ideas obviously they canot be all executed at once like you said like you're tting like 15 creative yeah that's true but you got to pick and choose what we think has the best potential or impact and um so then there's that then it comes down to the UA team right for us to keep testing the creatives be on track with our schedule and then I think the most important part is relying the results and the learnings back to our design team and letting them know the great success of that um they can team in the corner they're pretty

frustrated because like this is working so well for so long it's hilarious because how can we beat that yeah no matter where we are um you find that top creative and it's such a satisfying feeling right but then months later you're like oh my God it gets frustrating now it's unbelievable that feeling um yeah and then the feedback goes back into the ideation once again and working together okay so how how do you find the Define the creative Greener like do you need like what 100 installs 500 installs 50,000 Impressions how that like once again I think we're really driven by performance so I think every UA manager has different kpis and also by the app is different uh for us for sure comes with the delivery uh the IPM and the RASS is really what we look at the CPI obviously plays into it because it impacts the roas um those are the metrics we TR truly look at at the end of day we're very performance- driven so

even if a creative has like amazing CTR uh clearly attracts the audience but we're not seeing the result back out it's not something that we would run with finally finally [ __ ] someone says the same thing that I'm talking about all the time it comes down to Ras all the time even in the creative testing like how can you pay salaries in ipms Ser seriously nobody cares like if if the creative makes money like that's that's I think I think IPM is a is a very good um initial indicator it's like a shallow indicator right maybe there's some traction that we can create there but again if the creative doesn't retain and if it doesn't pay out and row as wise like it it doesn't necessarily make sense to let's say iterate on it deem it a top performer and and continue to um you know to go down that route so okay and do do you use any type of uh well the the

latest trends in terms of the AI in the in the creativ it's a great question um we talked about chat GPT earlier um it's it's definitely something that we've seen a lot more we have um talked to a lot of Aid driven creative performance you know Services um I think it's never going to completely replace what a designer does but I think it's going to be is already and we've done some testing already a powerful tool for concept testing right more on let's say the the static side right chat GPT come up with a ugc you know static uh 10 different 10 different ways and allows you to deploy those Concepts in a much quicker uh quicker manner so in that regard I think there's going to be um a lot of efficiencies that we can find in using like AI driven tools yeah so you use it we currently we currently use it more we currently use it more for dep we currently use it more

for copy today but we're we're definitely going down the route of doing our due diligence and seeing if it's going to make sense for us like more sustainably in long term well because uh so I use a combination of CAD GPT and uh and bid Journey yeah so I asked Chad GPD to actually write me a creative brief for like five videos for certain gamees game and it gave Crash and Burn It gave let's let's call it Crash and Burn racing R Crash and Burn racing game yeah gave me like like five very good concrete ideas with the potential audience and the the tone of the creative and everything I like wow okay it's pretty good did you produce it and test it I put it in the in the in the mid journey in the static images and it was like very like pretty good really surprising really surprising so some of the like static images outperforming the static images I was

using before I like okay it's it's going to be uh a very very powerful tool it's almost scary how like accurate it is I think it also comes down to like how well you prompt it like you were talking about tone and and like that earlier if you prompt it well enough like put it in this kind of tone like you know in this kind of style um then you're more likely to get like to the output that's going to resonate with the audience right so it's a lot about like the prompt the promp is very important of course I started experimenting with mour like like six months ago I use it for my newsletter for the thumbnails all the time and cats out of the bag the evolution well unicorn is out of the B so the evolution that I've like came through is like it was amazing I was really bad at prompts I mean I'm still bad but now I can like articulate what what I'm trying to see in the in the image and it's like very important so if

you if you're are able to do that for the creatives it's a huge unlock yeah yeah it's perfect absolutely it can help you like be more efficient in terms of the creative process in well so I so I produced One static image for one game just like a food game and I talk to my my motion design I like hey man like how long would you would it take for you to actually produce the the creat like three days maybe you know like all the free assets I need to put them together I like well made like I made it in 5 minutes so well but I think if you put it in the hands of the designer and you give them that tool it's not necessarily they're going to replace what they're doing I think the designer is going to be able to do so much more that's what I say like look D you need to be very efficient and try to learn how to use this in your workflow exactly because this is not going to replace it like I could see the flaws in the in the stat the game I mean they any sense like players they don't care like they don't

care true yeah they were like they like food didn't make any sense but like visuals like in general it looks pretty good yeah so they could oh wow this nice they started paying afterwards in the game like I guess nobody cares yeah that's what yeah that's what I explained like you need to be very efficient in what you do I think a good way to think about it it's it's easier to work off of that let's say half picked idea than to start like from scratch right so you're saving like magnitudes of time right so that's I think that's a good way to think about I work with I had three or four idea makers on the team and now I have one because like the rest like I don't have time or just like okay well guys I don't need you anymore M I'm good with like trying to ideate stuff from C GPT and then use it with like the bank of the the Creative Concepts that I worked with before and the combination that just way more efficient yeah agree

so we've been going for nearly an hour what are you trying to say I want to to talk about Adon stuff okay you can so we talk a lot about UA like is there anything like secret you guys are working on or something you can say on the ad monetization side not so much and I overheard your conversation with Aaron earlier but trying to break it in not not so much pure admon right um but as far as extending Beyond just the native Android app we have a lot of things in store that is a little bit more proprietary I would say um yeah I think I think you know it was debuted at GDC and we talk a lot about you know misplay being the number one loyalty you know um platform for mobile Gamers we're thinking about it as uh a way to I don't want to say commoditize because that almost cheapens it but a way to to manufacture loyalty

as a service so I will say that that about it in that we're thinking about how to take the model that works so well within the misplay ecosystem today and and bring it Beyond just misplay as an app do you have any concrete examples how you guys going to do that or is that not what's announced um not specifically what has been announced but in the coming weeks and months it will definitely be a little bit more concrete um I don't even have 100% of the details right um but it's it's super exciting to see what're offer wall not going to be an offer wall sorry disappointing any other admon questions that covers it yeah short and sweet I was hoping for something more revealing short and sweet we'll have a conversation uh a after after see ad a bit more interesting than you I got to say

yeah Fair no it's been actually pretty good should we wrap up and then uh go to the m and uh I guess see you next week guys thank you very much for coming thank you for having us this was a great conversation a lot of fun much [Music]