Panel: Future of Esports

[Music] so yeah again welcome to our panel discussion about eSports in the future of eSports before I introduce myself I would give the chance the panelists to do with the introduction themselves they know it much better than I what they're doing so I think we're starting this way here and then we go person by person with a short introduction what are you doing in eSports and maybe you can give a very short mission what you have in mind for eSports okay hi guys my name is Nick and I'm a vice chairperson of Hong Kong

Student Association so in the yeast boss setter I'm kind of training because we do believe that students is the first stage of whole eSports industry so we provide trainings or even school seminar or team training to different students who are interested in eSports industry that's what we focus on in this useful setter yes thank you hey my name is Chris and I'm the co-founder at community gaming we are a local events company we started running events in New York City about two years ago and we recently expanded into Los Angeles and Boston and these are monthly events for games like League of Legends dota hearthstone overwatch and these are one-day events that typically happen on a Saturday and we partner with venues we

don't own our own space but we partner with venues like we work other co-working spaces land centers sports bars and we act as a capacity solution for them they want to bring people in the door and we partner with brands non-endemic and game developers to be their local activation partner so we are the community hub in those three cities and we're gonna continue to expand across the US and hopefully internationally soon so my name is Mika and my name is completely spelled wrong and the slides - Mika and I'm CEO of NZ sports and this is a eSports team we have three games that we play competitively counter-strike we are number four in the world right now Starcraft 2 we have a world champion in a roster and pop G we have a pristine in Europe so my background is 15 years building games and apps companies and at tech companies and and last year I jump in the deep end and kind of left the product development stuff and fully

focus on eSports and I'm not sure if there's a mission other than I just see tremendous opportunity because the audience is growing eSports is going to mainstream young males are not anymore I mean eSports they follow more eSports in many countries many regions then they follow traditional sports so there's tremendous opportunities for for the industry so to introduce a game my name is Adrian I'm so bad at gaming by the way I was a sucked at League of Legends before so my my errors in eSport is my company is doing a tokenization as a tokenization company so we tokenized some of the axial arrested funds and eSport is one of the areas we're looking at because of the potentials in future we also look at proteins as well NBA teams and working with some of the players in eSport in us now - tokenize the ownership and result in your land investors well good morning everyone my

name is Jarek I'm the founder of Hong Kong eSports and game media Asia so Hong Kong eSports is a professional eSports team we have a league of Legends professional team and arena arena our professional team participated in the top league of LMS and GCS we also own game media Asia Asia was found in 201 6 we have a branch in Taipei Vietnam Indonesia Thailand and Shenzhen pretty much we provide gaming content just this month we reached 5.2 million monthly active unique users on our game Eurasia and what our coefficient is is we can provide action a bridge from China who want to get into Southeast Asia and anyone from around the world who wants to get into China um we can help them connect thank you thank you for the instruction and may you see we have people from different region from different business so I think we can have a very good discussion about how eSports may looks

like in ten years and what we are thinking eSports as going in very short to my person I'm Frank slavka I'm the CEO of IB media we have two business fields when we run our own projects one or new projects as sports holidays where we provide holiday games for eSports we have different IP partners like ESL and we do this program round verge at the momentum the first year what we are doing but we have already partners and five years and I guess in the end of the year we have more than 10 for partners around the world the second part is we are consulting companies I am very long in the east potency for nearly 20 years and we work with various partners from the eSports side one of our partners in eSports on lanthanum platform people's and we have them to scare the business

for my European business into a global business so coming back to our panel and my next question is if we have a status quo right now and you are from different industries from different regions how is the perception of eSports in your region so from the public side and as well from condemning some non endemic plants maybe we go again yeah tougher for me first you know I'm not the big company or like Asia or we just focus on Hong Kong region and I want to share about Hong Kong students and schools there at youtubers eSports what the perception perception let's say four to five years ago I mean nearly 100 percent of schools

will allow eSports appear in the school it is they were believed that eSports is harmful to their kids but only the teachers order the parents but recently after like two to three years we work really hard and we do a lot of promotions and talks like this they started to realize that there's no bad things in that some schools may think that is a very good education tools to the teenagers so from the perspective of schools students or even their parents in Hong Kong there there is a climbing numbers that they are accepting eSports industry I think there's very happy to see that in just

pinpointing Hong Kong okay and yeah let let me ask you a question you talked about it's a good educational tool can you explain that in Hong Kong there is a there is a called stem s TEM so it stands for like yeah technology engineering mathematics that's kind this is a new lesson to all the students all the schools want to introduce ten lessons to the kids to the parents they found that eSports is a very attractive points to them by using like like minecraft or League of Legends dota they will the students would like to learn how to statistic works or the CG computer graphics or the videos even the

computer science they will use this choose to educate you learn more from just instead of the books like the science the biology or that kind so that's what I mean that STEM education in Hong Kong they are trying to use eSports as a very useful tool yeah okay thank you so I'm from New York City so I guess I'll speak to the u.s. context when everyone thinks about eSports in the US they think about Los Angeles that's kind of the hub that's we're in close proximity to all the game developers and the reason we started community gaming in in New York City is because when we searched there was really no hub there was no place for people to come together an inclusive place for them to come every month and share the passion for the games they loved it tends to be a very fragmented community you have you

know Brooklyn Queens Manhattan and they're not really linked and there's no place to come together so you know that's kind of the reason we started it and I think as this localization trend continues with the overwatch league moving to City based next year these other top markets you know that it won't just be Los Angeles forever right these other top cities around the u.s. it'll become very valuable to have infrastructure built out there whether it's at the college and high school level camps it can be it can be anything so I really hope that you know it's not just Los Angeles forever and and that's some of these other cities I get a lot more attention from my size so obviously coming from a small country five and a half million people so some like question and what's our take on eSports I mean you know we already moving a lot of the stuff there and Finland you know it's the home from you know it's a supercell it's a Rabia country so we have extremely actually the long history on developing games and and we're very

kind of you know gamer friendly now comes to the perception of the market I you know when in my introduction I have pre dimension about this you know young males are already you know following more esports than any other sports this was actually based on a study that was done in in Finland maybe January this year this year so male 18 to 25 for now following more eSports in Finland and let's say ice hockey and football you know Finland a big country of ice hockey and we suck on football so but but nevertheless these organization these sports obviously have long long history like eSport doesn't have that history but yet the young audience is already following eSports more and what comes to gonna the educational system there's been for quite some time already university decrees or university programs not decreased before programs and also lower education programs of you know people specializing on eSports for example marketing and different you know areas and how a team can be kind of involved in that is like what we do as we have

you know people working on their masters or interns actually you know working on the diploma and there's actually a person starting soon who's gonna finish his studies he's basically researching eSports marketing and what can be leveraged from the traditional sports marketing we have a pre good idea of how it works other way around because we already bigger than any other sports team in Finland in terms of Twitter and Instagram by having lot you know smaller audience at you know fan base but this is what you know you know the second system can do you know there's so many elements in this industry that you know there's there's areas to kind of innovate and there's two kind of really really push the industry even as a team like ends just before our panel we had a short chat and you mentioned that you're working with telecom companies if you approach them they were open to eSports or you have to explain it to educate

them right open that's a good question I think you know the telecom operator one of our main sponsors telly it's a big Scandinavian telecom operator I mean they own this kind of operations throughout the world but the babe they've they bought into eSports two years ago maybe we started working with them and and and why they do that is that actually they they can access a demographic that is very hard to reach to other means so it's not that they want to do this because of the eSports but they see that these port is an opportunity for them to actually money at the end of the day they wouldn't brand themselves as a carrier whose gamer friendly you know we are starting be launching soon a mobile subscription for gamers which is all about data all about very very good capabilities for streaming doesn't really need to have that much of like voice or SMS this nobody uses them anymore from the age group but it needs to be you know data streaming capabilities and they also sell tons of

gaming peripherals gaming gadgets that it's very gonna organic you know in terms of activations we do because our guys you know use those things you they you know my team in Berlin Babji team is actually using this telecom operator subscriptions from you know which are based in Finland so it's the same you know European Union's roaming regulations enabled them to do that they didn't have to change anything so telecom is very very good example of how you know brands like that can really kind of dive deep in eSports and really integrate their services into it but then there are other industries that to be honest I struggle for example and you Frank we had in your presentation you mentioned about AirAsia I'm struggling with our local airline because they don't really care it yet they don't really yet understand what is the audience how important it is to actually you know provide them like authentic you know services content and integrate them properly so you know it's it's a little bit like the people who saw the light

there's pay paid a porting already two years ago and then there's a longer way of a route of people that you just need to convince convince convince one once we've seen eSports going the main mainstream it it's gonna get easier but it's still tough with some of the potato verticals so so I think my perspective is more from institutional or investment perspective because I'm not that to family with the Kol side of things in in eSport but I see all the past few years even the the last year I think I was last year I was a black rock actually we look at eSport as an area for potential investment in future and by potential investment it means that by marketing sponsoring eSport tournaments leading to the supply chain or investing in private companies in eSport and ultimately you know I Black Rock online shares so ETF right well it has Vista companies in this area and you may sound that fancy but a candidate like a lot of

different exotic areas and have financial products in that space right so over the past two years we received quite a bit of requests from investors in China getting access to eSport areas outside of China in career in the u.s. mustering the Hong Kong anata is this stage and then also investment in a related infrastructure we the infrastructure as was financial product right infrastructure by means stadium right how much from a real estate perspective I think that land is going to grow because there's a eSport stadium there so I see the American Chinese fun trying to invest in those in Spain in terms of financial product I see some people trying to kind of innovative ideas in in private equities investing in private companies in the eSport apparently personally I think there's still a lot of question marks to figure out to monetize in eSport for myself there's sort of my 50 Cent's I strongly

believe the game publishing game publishers and the developer will continue to dominate the eSport scene around the whole world especially Tencent financial is never a problem for the game publisher and today the players are making a lot more money I believe in the future that we're a lot more stable for League of Legends and Tencent related eSport titles and but talent is still very elect and intense and for for making the middle tier which is a team owner to to break even to support the high salary wages for for the players and to support the league and how do they really disrepair the money through their game for monetization and into eSports since at the end of the day eSport is still a marketing tool for the game publishers and we believe in in a short future players and team will be more and more recognizable in the traditional media

and in a normal world but still continually tense and would dominate the whole scene and secondly for the talent in the region back in 10 20 years ago I think eSport is never eSports or gaming is never a job it's more like a passion and a lot of people are making like we're in the industry without making any money it's just our dream or a passion and today like gaming industry is making over a hundred and twelve billion u.s. dollars a year and more and more people with heart skills with a higher education level is coming into the industry but a lot of them without passion but since people all over the passion they focus too much on the game and they do not have the working experience other than focusing in gaming eSports so right now there's a balance and I believe in store future just knowing how to game or just knowing hard skills it's not gonna work and people will be more you love the industry with more passion

and and heart shows and of course eSport would be better and better in in in short future as well less more and more people will be watching eSport participating in eSport but not in the eSport industry so eSport industry we're making a lot more money but there are gonna be less players in the game especially two years ago there's over 1 billion US dollars more money into the industry like from the feces a lot of doors law of each poor startups but however the fundamental was eSports is still on the game developers and the second chair is a team owner and and then down there is a players team's games and the players so anything else is very hard to survive and as we can see a lot of companies from 201 6 with very high valuations they are not here today but the ones who are very strong

with the continuing very strong so I believe that people who have a more education on what the industry's really is is about conversion business how do you comfort users how does increase the game in college the increased gaming lifetime and when they have the new IP and we are always very looking for it for rat new games right I've been talking about the two new games for it for decades and and how are they able to comfort League of Legends users into their own title through eSports since Kings glory is amazing game 415 million u.s. dollar per per month and it's pretty much a clone of League of Legends although they are from the same company so but internally how the game publisher used eSport users and what they have built to comfort into their new games and this what we can probably see in a short term and I think that's a very major thing that we can see the future of eSports so if I can

summarize it then my takeaway is from what you said it's the community itself understands eSports outside of the community is a lot to educate if it's investors if it's especially non-endemic brands and the second thing is that publishers use eSports as a marketing tool nothing more say that what is about governments so Derek I think Hong Kong is now very massively into eSports how it looks like the support from a governmental side in your countries so they're like maybe for for Hong Kong it's great for the past few years the government has to be strongly promoting eSports and today we have a lot more exposure I love my a lot more recognition like five years ago when you tell someone oh you can make money through playing a game and everyone is super excited Wow and today like you tell them that you

can make money playing a game I think it's nothing new anymore and today with the government supporting it a lot of traditional media is still will be will be like reporting about eSports talking about eSports we have a lot more exposure however we need a goal a government we need a goal we need to have an eSport industry we spot recognition so each part recognition is it's like Korea they everyone there's a lot of champions they always win the world titles for eSports however each boy is losing money in Korea so to have this it's more like winning an Olympic medal for Hong Kong but that is not an industry that is the national pride so pretty much an an a great player disrupting a great salary but how in Hong Kong Macau region is we have like a population and we are not compete about financially as the China

or the West so if we want the a great players to stay we need providing a great salary but if we do that is kind of reckless as a team owner so the government can support on the players I'm sure that Hong Kong endorsed be like more more world titles I mean what more world champion regional champion as a Hong Kong team or as a Hong Kong player secondly if you look at the industry industry how do you really make money through eSports since we we didn't own a game title the game title is not owned by any single region so to make eSports is to really extend the gaming life time and increase the gaming increase the game lifetime and people who watches eSports to spend more money inside the game so how we gonna leverage it and no matter how much we we pay for it like the English Premier League we pay for the English Premier League to be broadcast on today no TV or cable TV it still belongs to FIFA so no matter how we promote the tournament it still belongs to the game publisher so in a

way excluding sponsors since the sponsors idea to sponsor a tournament is the people who watch the tournament and spend the money away of something else excluding a game since we do not own a game so how do we really host a tournament without any titles and and to have a very good conversion I think nowhere in the world as regional people are making money as a as a government or the industry but however teams who were working with the game titles all of them are doing quite well okay Mika how acid in Finland how it's the government supports eSport I think they're still they're learning their way I guess Finland has a great kind of technology innovation funding in terms of the government so there's a there's an entity called business Finland notice and used to be technology from the

Finland they are behind of you know the super cells the N reversed brands but they also used to support companies like Nokia so they've been doing tons of Technology funding right and and in terms of giving loans or just you know you know warding people it's set to etc in eSports they are still trying to figure out what should they do so if I would have an in of technology innovation that is something that I would target with you know eSports like thanks I think there's a nice straightforward route with them but if I'm having anything other around the eSports whether that would be you know I want to be you know build facilities I want to build and like great tournaments etc they don't yet have the knowledge I think in the house or that's why you know we're we are kind of trying to be one of the guys to kind of really push the industry you know on that area as well and face all looks like in the city

of New York I would see the city supporting is but any initiatives the government there's there's not really any notable support from the US government I think they kind of lag behind Asia in the direct support where we are seeing a lot of support is from traditional sports billionaires and the owners they're they're you know they're pumping money into these franchise slots pumping money into these these teams at 100 million two hundred million dollar valuations and you know quite frankly it's a little bit of a bubble I think especially the you know the overwatch League in particular it's pretty questionable if that's really gonna hit those those KPIs they want to hit but it is nice that traditional sports is is you know seeing eSports as the Jen's II millennial you know coveted demographic and they know they have to be there they know they have to support it so yeah a lot of the sports coming from the the

developers in the US and traditional sports not so much the government okay so I guess and this is my experience throughout Asia what else in Europe that the community knows exactly what they are doing but outside of our community of the eSports industry we have especially if we are talking to non endemics or governmental departments government then you have to educate a lot more that they understand where as what what eSports is and what is needed I think what why what you said in the beginning is education as one of a big part even if it's qualification for jobs but even though - especially non-endemic industries or government's to educate what happens in eSport so that they really can understand that's not only trend that will be a huge industry and

this was my next question and maybe you can answer a little bit shorter so that we can have some more topics and come to a conference at the end of the discussion if we are talking about that and we have a discussion about the Olympics my opinion on is what's don't need the Olympics but it's not the question is is what sports sources entertainment Chris you talked a little bit about celebrate these sports events we are looking to sports events in the middle but there's a lot of entertainment around that so what what is your opinion on that the C sports more sports or entertainment for me Chris so I think it's definitely a bit of both it it definitely is entertainment I think someone like ninja coming along and just kind of blowing the world away you know getting these huge non endemics like uber to come in and sponsor and you know he's not the best fortnight

player he's just one of the more entertaining ones right and I think now there's people that are even bigger than him T fou so really I think it pays to have really good personalities alongside really talented players who can make it onto the podium which is kind of the sports side of things right so I think streamers and influencers are incredibly important and you're seeing that come to light with the scandal around T foo and the agencies so yeah I think I think it's both and I think the entertainment side is actually starting to kind of blossom more these days if two team owners yes so how is your perspective on that me it's clear entertainment I think you know how like when I join ends and starting looking like how do we like we approach this in terms of like critically commercially you know I there's so much more synergies with again mobile games companies and then traditional sports teams and mobile games that's an intake form of entertainment as well you need to join the audience

and then you you know engage with them and you retain them and then eventually you are able to monetize right I mean we treat this is an entertainment and and actually when when you know we even use the term called competitive gaming rather than we talk about the eSports often we talk about competitive gaming and and I really I mean if people are you know offended about like this is not sports I don't I don't like here I mean it's entertainments form of entertainment how we operate is that we fill the arenas right or we filled a twitch stream in terms of like having million eyeballs there in a major finals and that's that's an entertainment I think if you if you for me it's like a sport more than entertainment to be honest because now the sport is about a spirit of competing with each other and in a fair way with Bruce is brought one of the reasons that they can enter Olympics it's not because just because of the trends raised also because their rules set around how the game should be

played and it's the development across that has been so quick over the past 10 years that you could be run in an institutional or national wide situation so Sport sport is not just limited to playing basketball football or anything that is have a it's a spiritual type of thing international paces in a fair manner I'll consider sport on an entertainment perspective obviously companies improve in this space has been traditional entertainment companies so you define gaming as entertainment but the eSport it's just a way when you compete you call it sport so it's same if you find a diamond you see eSports as a sport so you have a coach you have managers around your teams can you explain it a little bit more how that looks like so what your management how it looks like what what kind of people are working there so yeah I see

that for for any because when you deal with the competitions you have your managers that is managing players whatever is marketing and is like a NBA player going out to an event sponsorship you have your coach which is really dealing with your competitions your in-game talent in-game skills and the authority fine rose during no Marisol impacts or tournaments right and you do entertain in the entertainment industry there's a lot of verticals and this horizontally there's also a lot of different type of companies while in Olympics even though East Broad has a loss affiliated infrastructures or services is purely competing competing teams with your coach I think that dynamics has has how people across the time to call it a sport and we could have definitions of sport next 20 years by competing different things right it could be crypto trading at the end might be a

sport so it just depends on each person perspective I guess Rica as you said it's for you it's more entertainment you have a similar structure well it's a pretty similar structure because on the other hand like I can again if I look in the commercial aspect about running this is a business I need to appear investing having the best coaches and we just we just brought in a sports psychology as part of the team and and obviously you know competitive success is the key without that there's not much right if you are not if we would be top 30 like 30th ranked in the world you know we probably turn 50 percent of our turn how we're number for the being in top five is you know that kind of you know brings you so much more kinda incremental success with commercial you know contracts etc etc so basically need to have this combat it so you know I do agree with that in that you know yeah you need to make sure that you're competitive and and and you know you keep winning but that then actually

brings the audience and brings the fans and brings the followers eventually that then you can commercialize because without the commercialization there's nothing you know that's like eventually you know we you know the industry is not going anywhere if there's no capital yeah okay thank you right from your perspective is this entertainment this is sports and say this how you see eSports for you what you are doing how you see is for 10 10 years 10 years has a long there's a whole separate question so actually is it a sport as an entertainment I think it has to be both if you look into eSports it's what what men what Millennials are watching what the young age are watching they spent more time on YouTube then who done TV by far and we're looking to youtube we put on a consumption female

they normally look at nails like how you put make a lose way music and stuff but for male like automate gaming is the top title to people search in to people search on youtube and eSport is a top level of the gaming the people of the most skills most talented the highest level of the gameplay so and back to why their coaches and analyst and all those kind of things it's because it's entertainment again so if the market is providing a lot of exposure and reflecting how expensive the players or the team are going to work that's why they can put more support in it right if you're not making any money everyone's gonna be amateur you don't even have a coach but today eSport is making more and more money and the valuation is super high for four teams and of course we can put in a lot more support and everything into it so it's definitely a sport and an entertainment since there's a lot of skills involved and people need to practice a lot and

just not just the gaming skills but your mental skills and your physical skills and what do I think eSports in ten years I think again people will be more recognized players and team to be more recognized around the world and continue gonna be dominated by the game publisher since they own the title and and hopefully they can find a way to how how to let the whole ecosystem to sustain for for the increase 'men of the players salary and and and to maintain a gaming life time to continue later people to watch it and people to play in it and and and people can get their money back on what they invested I am working in the grassroots education is this a trend and how you see how the eSports evolving

during the next year so what we expected 10 years from you suppose 10 years actually pupil if that there's one word I learned from my lessons is called entertainment it's an education and entertainment so East was I think that is definitely entertainment and you know in this industry in Hong Kong expecially in Hong Kong we just heard that there is not much expertise or you know computer science tech guys in Hong Kong so I mean we would like to train more or buy education like the high school education now in like Hong Kong's university or the open you open it 13 Hong Kong they're trying to organize over how the lesson studies about eSports management or even streaming lessons this of very technical lessons

purely teenagers after like three to four years when they graduate we will see there is a lot of experienced workers or technicians to service to help our events and you know in Hong Kong now the cyber port there is a very good venue right so the government provide a very good place and then the schools provide very good education and just our future there much must be better twist in ten years eSports looks like today completely different so a lot can happen in ten years I think artificial intelligence and automation will wipe out a lot of jobs retail trucking and so forth and I think a lot more people in turn will spend time playing video games so you know I think you'll have the eSports athletes making as much as traditional sports athletes but then I think you'll have everyone

else also able to earn supplemental income spending their entire day playing games if they want to as you know I'm a huge block chain technology proponent so I think as that evolves you'll have these in-game economies get as large as small countries and you'll be able to own your assets you'll be able to sell their skins to make money and that could be what you spend your time doing if you want to so I think gaming is already the largest entertainment medium by far and if we're there if we're already there today it's only gonna get so much bigger in ten years and you're gonna be able to play games all day and hopefully make money and have a great time and in ten years watch people more people watching your team playing than my favorite NBA team Houston Rockets absolutely yes in ten years I mean one before going that I can almost guarantee the counter-strike will still have one of

the most engaged fan base and a big one it's been like that 20 years so why would it change the next time so come on destroy I guess it is my bad as a game but in terms of like like like 10 years I think you know eSports is by far the biggest support if you will I mean it's been gonna be more fans more followers than for any traditional sports whether that's then entertainment of sport I don't really care but then what else in 10 years I think you know I'm gone a little bit but what what what you said about you know there's gonna be more people able to make a living by playing games I think even on a high level or our top level there might they should be actually additional revenue stream for the players themselves right so from a team's perspective the salaries are art art the challenge right sometimes then somebody might question of all you know NBA stars are making much more money right you know yeah that's true but you know where we are heading is is it sustainable or not so I'm keen to see our ideas in areas where

you know we could build additional revenue stream for the players tend to like they do stream already a lot so maybe they can make additional income from there but how can teams help how can industry how can we help them which sponsors can be helped but you know whatever the means are and I think there's gonna be massive really disrupt the methods of revenue streams in ten years I think I will I'll be interested to see whether eSport is a pop or not in the next 10 years do I say that is because now the business model of eSport is not justified yet for a lot of monetization that when you look back at NBA teams it's true that most of them it's losing a profit so they don't have a profit and most of the valuation on the NH team's is actual brand value right how LA Lakers our New York Knicks have billions of dollars in the brand and how could and can eat proteins have the same curve level or sink our mentalities most of the value attached to the brand and players got insane

amount of salary same assembly players right it's good possible from my perspective it's the second point is I think no matter what whether it will go away and the data is so useful in about industry because now a teenager's a 10 years old is looking a lot of YouTube videos they interact a lot with games and they're the future in in our generations and how to interact our industry to sell beta and that's why Facebook is so successful right and I think is broad generates so much of this data for the industries if I can just add on to the data piece I think you're spot on and you know right now it's not very clear what the ROI is for a non-endemic to you know increase double their marketing budget and so I think this data piece is gonna become increasingly important and you know one area that I'm paying attention to is this idea of a fan identity and a portable fan identity so the example would be you know you love hundred thieves you're tipping someone on twitch you're buying their merchandise on the site you're showing up at their local events right now all those data points

are are not connected we don't know that about that superfan so if there's a universal gaming ID that can hook into games hook into social platforms that'll make the data much more valuable for the teams for the sponsors and hopefully the players will be able to own that data and be incentivized to share it also jumping on the bed I mean they're I mean we're already some of the contracts we have it sponsors are performance-based performance-based can be something starting from competitive success you need to be within top three in the market you get bones on the other extreme there might be performance-based bonuses based on activations like you know we work with the with the rather large food delivery app competitor Google breeds chemical world from Finland a race like whatever hundred thirty million so we have a clear targets every month to try them X amount of new registrations registered users and eventually we're not there yet but we will look into how much money they

will print there you know how many how many you know orders they place through the app etc so basically that's a way of performance marketing already there right so they're without data I mean we gonna do that I love to have this discussion going on unfortunately we are running a little bit out of time but I think it was really really good insightful from different perspectives of the industry and a little bit as a conclusion of it I think we are just in the beginning we may know a direction it could vary maybe it's ports as entertainment we are online yes but yes the mobile eSports is coming and so there are a lot of opportunities into it and I think we will see over the next year's in which direction eSports will go thank you for being here having these sharing your

opinion and the experiences with us thank you and [Music]